I Saw The Light; A Discussion About Faith In America

I like how you used a capitol "G".

I used to small g as to not offend Jews. In reality, if you are Jewish you are supposed to spell it G-d, as you are forbidden to use it the formal spelling for anything but prayer, so I thought that small g was a good compromise.

To Randy and Mike...

Were you raised in a faith? Did you raise your children in a faith?

Great article Perrie.

Grew up a fundamentalist, Bible fed ~~bread and butter. Some really good folks in the movement but a lotsa wackos too. I was 18 and our Pastor's oldest boy was a coupla years older than me. He had left for a severely legalistic college and returned with a fiance...it didn't work. The dude was as gay as can be and his family rejected him. He got AIDS and then brain cancer, and then died. He died alone. I was at college by then ('83) and it broke my heart...I wanted to be there or him but he went so quick. I grew up with that guy. Tim was a great and gentle spirit and I still miss him. That was enoughPentecostalismfor me.

I am a Christian, but refuse to follow a man ever again.

I think in general there is more here than meets the eye. I do agree with the above definitions; but, IMHO see many people who worship, whether they declare their belief in a formal, religious manner. "Worship" means to ascribe worthiness. In other words, those things that a person spends their time , effort, money and passion on, are things they find worthy. They are things that are worth doing. Worship is not merely a sacrifice at an alter, or incense and prayer...worship are those things that we find worth it to us personally.

Some folks find it worthy to work hard and provide for their family. Others maybe commit themselves to great artistic endeavors or important research. Others find drugs to be worthy of their attention. some sex, some booze, somethieving, some conning...

Just because someone declares that they have "no religion" in no way exempts them from worshiping something, serving as an informal or undeclared religion. I have a very good friend who does indeed worship his dogs. He doesn't pray to them, or light candles in their names; but, he does serve them, love them, sacrifice for them and they are central in hisexistence. He finds them worthy.

I think so...

I never did get that spelling....

"Can you be a moral person without having a religion or believing in god?"

More importantly : can you be an immoral person while having a religion or believing in god?

Hi Larry,

Thank you for a thoughtful answer.

What a sad story about your friend. I can understand how that was a turning point for you. I had a childhood friend who was raised in the Church of the Salvation Army. He too was gay. Lived nearly 40 years of his life without telling his parents. His dad first flipped, but his mom was more thoughtful. She said that she didn't think that god made mistakes, and so, he was meant to be that way. Dad cam around eventually. But because his faith taught that it was sinful to be gay, he lost his faith, that he and I used to talk about in depth about, when we were teens.

It is true that worship has many levels and many things can be worshiped, even dogs. And I agree that I don't think that you have to belong to an organized faith, to believe in god.

"Worship" means to ascribe worthiness.

I think that many people have forgotten that. There are many things on this earth deserving of worthiness. We just have to take the time to recognize that, and invest in those things.

No doubt about it.

Randy,

But did you always think that?

I don't know much about the Church of the Salvation Army, do they take a formal stand against homosexuality? I'm glad your friend's folks accepted him and I hope he is happy; not easy coming from a strict religious home.

Actually most of the kids I went to church with no longer attend at all or have moved on to something else. Funny thing about the Evangelical (especially the Fundamentalist) movement is that they have seen a rapid decline in the US over the last 20 years, but have seen rapid growth in China and Africa. Those US Evangelicalorganizationsthat have bucked the current trend, and evolved into something fairly moreprogressive(comparativelyspeaking) in practical terms, are not the same in a lot of ways.

Yes, the Church of the Salvation Army is formally against homosexuality, so my friend was very lucky that his mother had an open mind and loved her son more than a rule.

I didn't know thatEvangelicalorganizations where so aggressive in those countries. I find it kind of sad, when people go into countries, who had a long history of a faith from their own traditions and loose it because of other faiths finding opportunity due to recent politicalcircumstances. Most of China was Buddhist, until the cultural revolution, which left areligiousvoid, now being filled by people who feel that their faith is the way to go.

to believe the Bible is to believe that as mankind went from being a pagan barbarian, God somehow evolved as well.

I believe the the god concept was a epiphany from one man, Abraham. And if you remember, most men didn't make the cut. So I don't think we are suppose to believe that man when from being bad to being good in just a moment of time, but through a sequence of events.

Besides, what kind of God can account for some baby raper, and call it the cost of free will.

Nobody can account for the actions of mankind, unless you consider him a potentially despicable animal, which is why I prefer to view him as such.

Then this must be your song:

God?

I don't think so, plus, he always wants money.

God doesn't want money. Houses of worship do. There is a difference.

I was raised by veryinteractiveparents, and other than a strange brew of faith, I was raised not to be a racist, or be homophobic. So parents can give you good values, too!

TheFundamentalistmovement really got it's start at the end of the 1800's, by the start of the 1900's and then especially the Azusa Street Revivals, hardcore fundie's had started runnin' the show. Now they had a very effective strategy...they started out being all inclusive regardless of race. That made their street credamong many average Americans dwindle but for some moreprogressiveChristians it made complete sense. Also they closely and truly believed OT teachings concerning hospitality. A person welcomed into your home or church was to be fed and clothed and taken care of. Period.

It didn't last long. Some congregations did not deal with the bigots in their midst and there went the brotherly love. Then all those donations that were coming inlegitimatelyfor people who actually needed things, started getting scooped up by the ass-hole Charlatans.

the result?

Bennie Hinn

Jimmy Swaggert

Randy and Paula White

....on and on and on and on...

Jesus used a whip and I'm cool with that.

Jesus used a whip and I'm cool with that.

LOL and good for you Larry! From the sound of things, they deserve it.

They had an inroad with revolutions and political turmoil in many countries. Really though, much of their success can be traced right back to one simple thing. Even more than money or food or clothes, very, very manysincerelyseek an education for their children. In rural areas of China, an education is not easy and here comes missionaries that not only are willing to teach for free, they teach the English language. English is seen by so many poor folks world wide as a ticket to bettering their condition. Teaching unauthorized religion is against the law; but many have gotten around this by opening schools and developing relationships that then allow a more intimate discussion about spiritual matters. They do it on the sly and it's always quite risky.

If ya want to hear something more amazing consider this: many in evangelical circles are saying that there are now more of their missionaries coming from China and Africa to the near Godless and forsaken mission field of...AMERICA! That's right, lots of foreign missionaries in the US actually view our society as broken and fallen away from God. How wacky.

...not to mention I'm sure that there are also "missionaries" who have an eye on thelucrativenessofpracticingtheir cons on US churches. Not all, but they are there and they are putrid.

I'm sure that you are right, Larry.

That is quite a surprise Larry . Do they set up shop in poor neighborhoods ?

For those of us who had formal training in religion, I believe the most important attribute is to be educated in the context of modern society. The greatest problem of allreligion is fundamentalism - the outright rejection of the modern secular society. If you are taught religion in the context of a modern secular society, you are given the realistic picture of faith.

While we're on the subject of homosexuality, it's important to know how to respond to religious fundamentalism. The verse in question, Leviticus 18:22, condemns the ACT - "to lie with another man as one lies with a woman". BEING gay is not a sin. It is the act that is sin. There is no mention in the bible about BEING homosexual.Leviticus has many, many other laws. For example, chapter 11 deals with the laws of kashrut - what is and what is not kosher. The Westboro people should be asked why they follow some laws of Leviticus, but not others. They're so bugged by gays, but have no problem eating the bacon.

Which points us to the most obvious transgression of ALL fundamentalist sects in EVERY faith:

My laws are the REAL laws that G-d gave us, and the rest of you are all WRONG.

Not enough moderates in the world.

Not enough education in the world.

They set-up shop where they have an inroad. Maybe small groups already in place, but mostly in poorer areas that the government is less concerned with. It is in reality a search for avacuum, a place where they can take step in and meet a need, and spread the word.

Just look at where conflicts withfundamentalismtake place; where it meets the modern world. It leans heavily on ignorance and intoday'sworld, there are a lot of avenues away from ignorance. Fundamentalist want thereadherentsand possible "converts" nowhere close to an education.

Great post Jonathan. It's true how people cherry pick their passages in the bible to suit their own bias.

It's true that people use religion as an excuse for bigotry and intolerance.

And moderation is a word I love.

Is that not what societies have been doing for generations?

Perhaps there are certain valuable cultural wisdoms that are best expressed by folks as it evolves as a part of themselves, and then conversely, it is changed by thosesocietiesas they do so. In other words, is it possible that certain basic human values, reach an apex of excellence, by the trying of these values through the evolution of their cultures? Ya know, societies that work and thrive, are sifted from those who do not. Maybe it is because the best of their culture isn't good enough to begin with; or, does not evolve. Part of this evolutionwillhave to include the evolution of their identity, reflected in their traditions.

Larry,

If I understand you, your saying that some societies don't evolve because of too much outside interference. Correct me if I'm wrong.

So, why honor anything in the Bible?

I think it has a lot more to do with roots. For many people part of their identity is tied to their faith. It is the traditions that they enjoy. If you think back to your childhood, probably Christmas and Easter stick out in your brain as happy times. That is why people would have a hard time creating something new. Their emotional tie to the past and their memories.

My assertion is that faith and selfless love are two things in no way supportable by logic.

MJL,

I can't speak for other faiths, but in Judaism, it's been "rewritten together" for more than 2,000 years. The Talmud expounded, explained and added relevance to many of the commandments. The midieval scholars updated that work, more than 1,000 yearslater. Still, we had a slew of 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th century commentators, adding relevance to the text. And I have no doubt that we will see more in the 21st and beyond.

If you do not allow your text to breath; if you do not sit down and apply the text to where we are right now, then it's not worth the paper it's written on.

Last thing:

When you pick up a bible, and decide to read it, you should know what it is that you're reading before you read it. Again, I can only speak for the Old Testament, but the bible is a LAW BOOK, with stories in it. It is NOT a story book with some laws. I'm not here to survey whether you believe the stories. But I believe you can learn something from them. They are, at the very least, strong parable.

Perrie,

I mean that cultures andsocietiesmust evolve to grow and prosper, they must adapt. It seems to me that those most successful have a healthy conflict between tradition andprogressiveness; and, the health can be illustrated not only by how their traditions shape them, but if thosesocietiescan also foster evolution of their traditions, simply in practical practice. Cultures should evolve and grow and it will be reflected in the evolution of their traditions. Not only are healthysocietiesreflections of their traditional wisdom, their traditions should also be a reflection of their vibrancy and change.

Larry,

I totally agree. Everything mustevolveor becomeredundant. But I think there is a resistance to this. People becomecomplacentand even fearful of change. They fight this and there is where the problem lies.

In the case of religion, almost all of them had a period of change. Sometimes for the good, and sometimes for the worst. But I think that what the Pew is pointing out that might be unique in America, is that people are makingconsciencedecisions about their religion. Take you for instance. You were raised in one way, had your own personalepiphanyof a sort, and chose a different path. It's worked for you fine. I think that is something very special about being an American. Despitereligiouszealotsamong us, we still have a lot of tolerance for religious diversity.

Thank you Perrie, bestcomplementI've gotten in a while!

:~)

...because yeah, I think we have to grow and change or we die. the freedom and openness of American society is a really, really great thing. You make an important point also in that those personal spiritual choices for change, are notusuallya knee-jerk reaction, instead they are arduous and thoughtful. They are conscious choices.

Jay,

I totally agree. As a matter of fact, you can't prove love, can you?

So I guess that means that you have no answer for the "God is love" crowd ...
BTW which type of logic are you referring to ?

Rich...

Who are you talking to? LOL!

I love articles about this subject. There is everything right about it when discussions are encouraged and we are respectful of each other's core beliefs.

what is it that can take a person's core beliefs and change them so radically? Is it the religion it's self, or is it the individual?

In my case, inconsistent dogma, exclusion of women, scientific revelations and excessive personalization of a god concept led me to become an atheist/agnostic. I gave up my Catholic affiliation at around 16 years of age...31 years ago. During funerals and other forced reencounters, I sit in the pew and have such difficulty listening to the service. I sit quietly and respectfully, but agree with little. I can't help it as I must remain true to my convictions.

Regardless, I have many many friends who remain affiliated with organized religions and I accept their personal choices. If this is their way to find comfort and peace...so be it. If they ever want to debate me and their spirituality, I'll gladly join the fray. But I've learned not to try converting anyone to my set of beliefs or lack of beliefs.

P ,

Hey , I'm not gonna answer that . You'll have to follow the thread backwards just like the rest of us ...

Interesting you mention that, Randal.

The last time I attended a Catholic service was when my father passed away in 2003. I recall listening to the mourners reciting traditional verses, but being unable to speak them myself.

I had similar experience at my uncles death.I had a hard time believing that there was a god because for all the suffering that my uncle had with ALS/Lou Gehrigs disease. He was such a good man.

Dear Friend Perrie: Many salient points are raised in your excellent article.

Let me try to address some, but not all of them from my one individual perspective and experiences.

My interest in religion is not based primary or even tangentially on faith (emunah). It is centered around chochmah (Wisdom).

Chohmah is found in my Scriptures in a more than 4 to 1 ratio to emunah.

I do not accept that religion must be based on faith, without reason, metaphysical experience or such.

Trying to categorize all religions and spiritual approaches by the framework of some is an effort doomed to failure before it starts. Each must be approached on its own terms, or their central points and merits surely will be missed.   

Baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer and football are all legitimate sporting activity. That said, trying to understand the territorial imperative of football by pastoral baseball is to miss the value of both. Each sport, and they are all sports have their own rules. Consistency is to approach each on their own terms. The alternative are a lot of baser level off point straw person arguments and misinterpretations.  

I cannot address form personal experience having to leave or be dissatisfied with my heritage. It has done me and mine wonders for my seven decades in the here and now. It has survived and thrived under often terrible conditions for more than six thousand years.

I can share why my tradition always does it for me. It speaks to my need to bring out my better side. To be there for others when and as they need and want my help. It gives me a wonderful way to live life. It gives me a set of values that has positioned me well for success in the military, community of commerce, academia, the Rabbinate and Chaplaincy.

I can feel the Divine Presence when I am able to help others. I feel it when I can work together in harmony and productively with those in and outside of my community. When I see acts of loving kindness, warmth and humanity, caring and progress I feel the Shacheenah (Divine Presence).

For me, no faith in the existence of G-d is necessary. I feel the Holy One abiding in every act of Chesid (loving kindness) daily.

Is my approach the only way to live life most abundantly and fully? Of course is it isn't!

There are tens of thousands of non-Jewish religious approaches to life. Millions of good decent people whose better side is brought to the fore for the greater good by what they do. I am happy for them that they have this. It matters not to me or G-d that there is a diversity of ways to travel the roads of life. There are many elevators in a skyscrapers. Sooner or later, they all get to the top floor.

Can an atheist, agnostic, or just people who don't care one way or the other about any religion live a moral, full, charitable, kind, loving and meaningful life? Of course they can, and do!

I was known in undergraduate, graduate, post graduate and seminary classes as the breaker of the Bell Curve. From Freshman year on all my bills and fees were covered by scholarships, fellowships, grants, etc.

Classmates of any stripe came to me for all night sessions so I could get them past course work on things like doctrine they found difficult to understand and use. 

That said, dogma, doctrine and such, good as I am at them isn't what attracts me to my religion (da'at).

What is best of it for me is that it has and continues to give me a great life. Guidelines for how to life it best. Family, community, and group fellowship that enhance life. Opportunities to best serve the Holy One, Blessed Be by serving each and every one of His own on their not my terms.

Scientific instruments, and mathematical modeling yield information about from the most nano of micro to the most immense macro realities of the universe. This is far beyond what we can observe with our own limited senses. So too do the perfect, eternal, immutable and self-fulfilling Divine Laws customs, traditions, body of literature give me and mine tools to sensitize us to metaphysical realities which are there and make our lives maximally best. 

It is good there is such a diversity of approaches to living life most abundantly. My opinion is that we should not be in the business of limiting how the Spirit moves each of us in differing ways. Rather we should embrace our differences, each other, and make good use of common goals, aspirations, talents, hopes desires and values. This is the best of life, and how it can continuously improve.

Le Chaim, To Life!

Enoch.  

My goodness!

An article from Perrie from 2012... and a response from Enoch today. Both excellent, of course... Both of you underscore the distinction between religion and belief in God. A person may have one or the other, or both, or neither. Almost as though the two are only haphazardly linked. 

I wonder if religion is about God. It is certainly about community. And (sadly) about power. God so often is forgotten. 

Enoch's insistence that faith is secondary is a fascinating peek at his belief system, his religion. Self-styled "Christians" so often allow themselves to hate and exclude... in flagrant disregard for Christ's most basic message... that I cannot but wonder about their "faith". Kant's moral imperative needs no God, but is far more Christ-like than most Christians.