Is this song performed by Kate Smith 'spankin' Americana? Does it offend you that it mentions God throughout? Can this song be broadcasted over the speakers in public today?
"Kind of makes you think of alot of things." — This Is The Army (1943)
With all the discussion about appropriateness of mentions of God, when does music or other swell things simply and clearly just inspire the human ethos?
I think music does elevate the human spirit. Both religious and humanitarian. I do see a place for both or each, depending on who is listening.
Music conveys a myriad of emotions! It is the reason we smile, bop, bob, snap fingers, dance, and truly cry when a songwriter gets it exquisitely right to our senses.
The humanitarian can value the truth in a well-versed song, even while leaving its sanctity for another. The human spirit can ascend to different states of high by a battle hymn of the republic! Sad is the one who can not esteem the valiant and pity the dying celebrated in words, harmony, and sounds.
I remember the 'days of my youth' when I wandered far and wide in search of knowing, never did it cross my mind to shut out the honest real feelings that a serene, rousing, or effervescent collection of words and orchestrated performance could pull out of me.
The human spirit is real and it can not be denied its appropriate attention or reactions. It will break forth in any and all of us one way or another.
That was totally awesome. I am such a cry baby patriotic sort of person. This stuff gets to me. That is the way I was raised. Love of Country, love of family. My Dad would have loved this.
Note: I was given a "solid" by John Russell that the presenter for Mr. Ronan Tynan is not Mr. Arnold but another 'fabulous' person. John, I closed your chat before I could 'learn' the name properly. Moreover, for the life of me I can not find the man's name on the web. If you care to assist I sincerely will appreciate that. (I would like to give the presenter his name back!)
The Tom Arnold look alike who introduced Ronan Tynan on this occasion is the actor Bradley Whitford , who is probably best known for being one of the main cast members of the tv show The West Wing.
I am in the USA, mags. And I know the First Amendment.
See, having conversed with Calbab before, I have a feeling I know what he was getting at. He's against making laws that discriminate against, for example, gays, but when it comes to keeping religion out of government, well, that tends to be a step too far for him.
I really don't care what songs are played on a privately-owned station, but if a publicly-supported organization decides to promote one religion, it has to promote them all. Here in the USA. According to the Constitution we are supposed to hold dear.
Saying "god bless America" doesn't make one a good American. Upholding the Constitution does. I know some would like to tie religiosity to patriotism, but that's wishful thinking, not supported by the documents by which our nation is governed. Christians have no special status here, much as you'd like to believe otherwise.
[Calbab]'s against making laws that discriminate against, for example, gays, but when it comes to keeping religion out of government, well, that tends to be a step too far for him.
Hi Sandy, I am for compromise, peace between the maximum number of people and groups, I am for equal representation of the citizenry across the board. I am for people diversity in every setting: from prison to Heaven.
My motto is: "People, God I love you so much."*
* (Even, badfish. I love Hal too (a little less than most—but okay; Yeah!)
if a publicly-supported organization decides to promote one religion, it has to promote them all.
Yes! Yes! Yes! It's time! In the words of the late, great, comedian Joan Rivers, "Oh America grow up!"
Reorganize (refresh) the national mindset! Stop oppressing and repressing our legal citizenry. People who obey laws deserve to be preferred and treated affirmatively from sea to shining sea. This country were it to get its collective self together once and for all could shout with a loud voice, "Baffle is dead!" "We broke the Tower!"
Too big. Too interesting. Too stellar. ???
We are small, often fiendish, and tribal. Perhaps?
I know some would like to tie religiosity to patriotism, but that's wishful thinking, not supported by the documents by which our nation is governed.
Let's chat about what you've written here, Sandy. The fact is, a pocketful of soul-stirring hymns and a set of hand salutes have made many a recruit last out a military career. "It kinda makes you think of a lot of things."
About the Constitution. As any conservative will point out to you and me (liberals), that "document" only guarantees you what it says in total. The conservative argument to this day is every other law obtained in any American court can be reverted due to it being extra-constitutional. In other words, the issues we liberals care about were never ratified by any constitutional amendment.
That is the the sum of their argument. Recently (2015), Chief Justice Roberts used this very construction in his dissent against same-sex marriage passage being enacted by what he negatively referred to as "majority unelected justices" instead of the U.S. legislature.
The conservatives will not rest and accept atheists and secularists walking away with the governmental "ball." In addition, they will fight to never permit liberals to gain any amendment empowering full secularization of our government no matter the intent of the Establishment Clause.
So can we dream of singing off the same sheet called, compromise, like the nation used to do? In the Senate, Sen. McCain called it "regular order."
Stop oppressing and repressing our legal citizenry.
I'm all for that, including not forcing those of our legal citizenry who do not believe as you do to support the promotion of your unprovable beliefs just because you happen to find yourself in the majority.
Play whatever songs you like.
Wedge your god into whatever issue you choose, including "Americana".
But recognize that American values allow for and indeed encourage pushback against YOUR god being representative of "Americana". The United States Constitution recognizes NO god as above any other, and really doesn't care if there's a god or not.
The fact is, a pocketful of soul-stirring hymns and a set of hand salutes have made many a recruit last out a military career. "It kinda makes you think of a lot of things."
So? Do soldiers of other religions not deserve inspiring songs? Are songs that glorify America with no mention of gods less valid than those that do?
No.
And as far as allowing "conservatives" to finagle their god into our government - well, you advocate for capitulation, IMO. That's how we get schools in Kentucky teaching biblical literacy classes (but never Quran literacy classes), and taxpayers subsidizing Creation "Museums" and non-seaworthy arks while their counties go bankrupt. That's where your compromise gets us. Teaching Christianity in public schools, and paying for discriminatory businesses to exist, while being unable to pay for emergency services.
You misunderstood me. I love people, and GOOD people all the more. I talk about my specifics in life because they represent me. I expect others to "champion" their causes in a similar fashion.
Sandy, I push for a near total change in the United States model. I am a Christian who has come to grips that I live in a capitalist country with a constitution guaranteeing many, not all, classes of citizens, a place in the sun. When I write to you that I want equal representation for citizens I mean it. Of course, it has to be made "doable." No! I do not want the abusive factors from any culture to show itself! Who in their right mind would?
But in the "melting pot" that is us - many small groups can be made workable and pushed up the canopy towards the sun. That includes atheists, humanists, and secularists too. Remember this, I, and folks like me, have never held anyone down. My, our, plea for peace and compromise is real, honest, and sincere.
Sandy, I truly love you and people in general: This much!
We all know sometimes life hates and troubles Can make you wish you were born in another time and space But you can bet your lifetimes that and twice it's double That God knew exactly where he wanted you to be placed So make sure when you say you're in it, but not of it You're not helpin' to make this earth A place sometimes called hell Change your words into truths And then change that truth into love And maybe our children's grandchildren And their great grandchildren will tell I'll be loving you until the rainbow burns the stars out in the sky.
The U.S. Constitution by design is a tool placed in the hands of people. It is men and women fearful of changing, enhancing, or generally correcting any defect in it, that fashion it into a weapon through employing lawyers; people who drain out and dry up any compassion left in such a deliberative document.
Sandy, when you and I shall die, some loved one or stranger shall search high and low for meaningful, expressive words and phrases to evoke the affect of our living on them and the surrounding world. That person will likely find meaning encapsulated in a timeless classical writing or song. National events live, perish, and are memorialized in a similar fashion.
Something swells in one or several of us and pencil is put to paper or score. Thus, a new standard is born. Religious people break forth into writing. I'd imagine naturalists do as well. Very often these discussions are about "us,". . . and not "you." Go ahead, tell us about your favorite standard. What grand song/s elevates your life?
Are songs that glorify America with no mention of gods less valid than those that do?
So let's discuss the standards you place value in. What is your offering to "Americana," Sandy? Let us cheer your values on for a spell and not leave any one out!
Capitulation?! Hod on now. Elevate. No one is asking you or me for that matter to support unworkable ideas. You just jumped from artistry to politics. That is a different category of issues, dilemmas, and circumstance altogether! I do not expect you to support bad religion anymore than you can expect me to support bad science. Sandy, poor quality is simply worthless in any measure.
It is men and women fearful of changing, enhancing, or generally correcting any defect in it, that fashion it into a weapon through employing lawyers; people who drain out and dry up any compassion left in such a deliberative document.
Yes, that's why it's had so many amendments, many for the express purpose of guaranteeing equal rights under the law to groups which had been denied them.
As to the rest of your post, I don't care if people write, sing, or play religious songs. But I can tell you that if those mourning my passing chose a religious song to express their grief, I would not see it as any greater expression of love than a nonreligious song.
So I find it odd that your choice of "Americana" seems limited to religion-infused songs, with a bit of persecution complex peeking out there when you hint that they're not allowed to be played in public. Of course they are. Trying to imply otherwise with a loaded question is dishonest. I object to government support for the deliberate entwining of religion and patriotism by some Christians, and the "go along to get along" position I'm told to take by those who say they uphold religious freedom, but do not see that forcing nonbelievers to pay taxes to support religion contradicts that concept.
So let's discuss the standards you place value in. What is your offering to "Americana," Sandy?
This is not about my choices of Americana. We are discussing your offering. Don't deflect.
You just jumped from artistry to politics.
No, this article did. You brought up songs and "Americana" and whether it is permissible to play religious patriotic songs in public.
I do not expect you to support bad religion
Whether religion is "bad" is in the eye of the beholder. We have had frequent discussions regarding my issues with the immorality of the Abrahamic god as characterized in the Bible. I would consider a religion that worships a jealous, violent, vengeful god to be a bad religion.
So you said all of this to signify what, Sandy? That you have no important values that inspire you to achieve and elevate yourself and others? I asked you a sincere question, because we never discuss what you are positive about to any substantive length. You can not be bitterly against religion "all day long," that can be quite tiresome.
So open up, let me, us, into Sandy's atheistic life. What about the American way of life do you love to your core?
This is not about my choices of Americana. We are discussing your offering.
I have offered some discussion videos where public spaces are being used to refer (songs ) to God. In the process of doing so, I have discovered something about myself in the beauty of those transmissions dug up for presentation. In addition, a couple of other commenters have supplied great secular songs that rank right up their in their sense of purity of pain and spirit. Frankly, at first, I balked at them, then I listened, and some of it "affected" me and another I leave for the community to be touched by.
You protest so loudly it is as if you are begging for help. There is no help for you until you acknowledge that some people are different from you which includes those of us who believe in God. We don't care that you don't....that's on you, girl.
When will you get it into your head that we don't CARE!
You don't like the Abrahamic God? Ok! So, what else yanks your chain? Christians follow the New Testament, but respect the Old Testament.
God is Great....God is Good....God is Love!
This seed was suppose to have been about America, but you brought it to another level!!!!!!!
I believe you told me to get a life, mag, so you're not entirely telling the truth here, are you?
I responded to calbab's implication of persecution. He's asking loaded questions, and then not getting the answers he likes.
When have I ever refused to acknowledge that there are people who believe in god? What an absurd claim, given that I'm holding a discussion with people who obviously believe in god.
You are vehemently certain that your way is the right way while I am just as certain that mine is.
Nothing complicated about me. I am conservative. I am a Christian. I am a mother and a grandmother. That little fella who is my avatar is the light of my life,
I have busted up a drug gang, I have supported special needs children, I have run for political office, I have coached and refereed soccer, I have been a TV and radio personality, but I am not special.
The only thing I ever did special in this life was adopt my oldest son and give birth to my youngest son. Another gift I received was from my Mother.....my precious sister.
He's asking loaded questions, and then not getting the answers he likes
Just stop it, Sandy. One thing you can be assured of is for all my lack in life, which you can not possibly know because I do not share it with you, I do not feel persecuted in any sense of the word right now. I will not engage you in such projection any longer.
If you persist in "mirroring" your own attitudes that is your prerogative, but I will comment with images and not plain and simple words. So talk to me at not at me going forward. That's all.
There! You have an answer as well. Religious themed music is equally represented in American culture as any other class. Like everything else in life, just keep matters in balance and good taste.
Song doesn't bother me at all. If God can bless America, I wish it would. What would be wrong with that?
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In 1938, with the rise of Adolf Hitler , Irving Berlin, who was Jewish and had arrived in America from Russia at the age of five, felt it was time to revive it as a "peace song," and it was introduced on an Armistice Day broadcast in 1938, sung by Kate Smith on her radio show. [7] Berlin had made some minor changes; by this time, "to the right" might have been considered a call to the political right, so he substituted "through the night" instead. He also provided an introduction that is now rarely heard but which Smith always used: "While the storm clouds gather far across the sea / Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free / Let us all be grateful for a land so fair, / As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer." (In her first broadcast of the song, Kate Smith sang "that we're far from there" rather than "for a land so fair".) [4] This was changed when Berlin published the sheet music in March 1939. [4]
Woody Guthrie criticized the song, which he considered unrealistic and complacent, and in 1940 he wrote " This Land Is Your Land ," originally titled "God Blessed America For Me," as a response. [ citation needed ] Anti-Semitic groups such as the Ku Klux Klan also protested against the song due to its authorship by a Jewish immigrant. [4]
.....The song was sung by the main characters in Michael Cimino 's 1978 war film The Deer Hunter . Regarding the song in the film, Roger Ebert says in his March 9, 1979 review: "It [the film] ends on a curious note: The singing of 'God Bless America'. I won't tell you how it arrives at that particular moment... but I do want to observe that the lyrics of 'God Bless America' have never before seemed to me to contain such an infinity of possible meanings, some tragic, some unspeakably sad, some few still defiantly hopeful".
As a side note....I sang "God Bless America" while I was in high school during half time at a football game. I was on one end of the field and the high school band was on the other end. My singing coach directed my singing as a couldn't hear the band. Will never forget it.
Oh ok, I'm childish - lol. You are thinking that a sky fairy is blessing (whatever that even means) the country that you live in, but it's not blessing other countries - and that's not childish. Sure thing.
It's just an expression, but that doesn't change the fact that it's nonsensical. Do you think that there's a god who is favoring one country over another? Does it have a favorite baseball team too?
No one even suggested that He favors one country over another nor one person over another. We are asking God to bless America and other countries can do the same.
I look at God Bless America as more of a plea than a demand. It was originally written during WWI and then re-worked a little to oppose Hitler in the run up to WW2.
To me it is a patriotic song much more than a religious song and doesn't bother me as long it is not ridiculously overdone.
America is full of capitalists, greed, discrimination, racism, and a host of other traits that Jesus would be appalled by. I highly doubt his daddy would bless that.
You do not have any respect for any "God" and you have made this clear time and time again, Hal. So what is the meaning of this self-styled patronizing?!
I got to agree. If you are going to make an argument against god, than do so, instead of making comments that don't forward a discussion. (disclaimer, I say this as a member and not the RA).
America is full of capitalists, greed, discrimination, racism, and a host of other traits that Jesus would be appalled by. I highly doubt his daddy would bless that.
Do you have a problem with that statement? What about American life do you think is in harmony with the teachings of Jesus? He said (supposedly) to worship in private, treat people as you would treat yourself, turn the other cheek, and many more things that are routinely ignored in this country. Instead, we have a country that is openly bigoted, a culture that is driven by profit, an economy that excludes the poor, and a religious environment that drives citizens to discriminate while extracting their hard earned money. If Jesus is real, and he comes back, my words will mean more to him than any other bullshit that gets written on this site - and I am an atheist.
I don't think that America is perfect and I do think more often than not, people fall short of their best selves and fall short of other people's expectations.
Jesus' teachings are good. Whether or not you think he is god is irrelevant. Do I think that we have more hypocrites in America that preach his word and then don't follow it? Probably. But I think that is probably true of ethical humanist, too. Hypocrisy and intolerance is the at the butt of the issue and both have enough of it to fill a stadium and then some.
Instead, we have a country that is openly bigoted, a culture that is driven by profit, an economy that excludes the poor, and a religious environment that drives citizens to discriminate while extracting their hard earned money.
Hal, with so much apparent disdain for this country, could you tell us which country you feel would suit you more.
You aren't understanding where I'm coming from. I'm not saying humanists are better people than religionists. It's just that we don't have some ancient code that we claim to go by, like religionists do even though they clearly aren't. Claiming to live by the teachings of Jesus and being an average American citizen are two concepts that are at odds with one another. People claim Jesus thinking that will reflect well on them, but the reality is that the Jesus character would not be impressed by any aspect of the American lifestyle. Saying Christians fall short of the expectations of Jesus is like saying poop falls short of the expectations of potpourri.
Claiming to live by the teachings of Jesus and being an average American citizen are two concepts that are at odds with one another.
Please clarify
People claim Jesus thinking that will reflect well on them, but the reality is that the Jesus character would not be impressed by any aspect of the American lifestyle.
True. But most faiths and non faiths would say that we can be a selfish people. Why single out Christians?
I didn't get disdain from Hal's comment about this country. I got that he feels that most people who say that they are believers do not follow the tenets of their faith.
How many people do you know that actually resemble the Christ character?
I would say that one of the only people I've ever met that reminded me of the Christ character, was a guy on the Venice Beach boardwalk who was selling beautiful artwork out of his van, which looked to be his home as well. He was genuinely at peace like I've never witnessed in a person before, and when he gazed at me I just felt like this guy was special in some way. He had his wears spread out all over the place with no concern that anything could have been easily stolen this way. I brought a piece to him to ask if he haggles, and he softly said "how much would you like to pay?" He accepted my offer without even thinking about it. He was not concerned about money, he just seemed to want his works to go to good places. He was a Buddhist, calmly living on next to nothing, and with no negativity surrounding him. He was like no Christian I have ever met.
Why do nations create, search out, and select hymns, anthems, and identity music to unify its people? Because of the inherent transcendence in the words and sounds! National spirit. the soul of a nation, leaps when certain words and melodies are combined.
If we do not tell our narrative through songs, pictures, statues, dances, and all other mediums some other nation will certainly attempt to do so for us and mostly get us all wrong (like the neighbors down every street in America whom we never got properly introduced to).
The problem is that the court's interpretation of the constitution on this point doesn't make sense.
The first amendment restricts congress from adopting a religion. It doesn't prevent states or anybody else from doing it and, in fact, colonies either had state religion or endorsed it to some degree. After the civil war, congress enacted the 14th amendment to ensure that states couldn't make newly freed slaves second class citizens. It had absolutely nothing to do with religion. However, because of loose wording, the Court interpreted the "liberty" language in the 14th amendment to encompass the restriction in the First amendment, even though that would was clearly outside the intent of the drafters.
So what we have now is the ridiculous notion that the 14th amendment prohibits uplifting music because it mentions God.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Note: 2 - 4 sections left out as irrelevant to this discussion.
Section 5.
The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
The Battle Hymn of the Republic Performed by theU.S. Army Chorus (PBS Newshour)
This song is full of reference to God, likewise it is a standard of the fighting corps of this nation! These song are national treasures. Is it any wonder schools would openly play honored songs and music?
In 1929 the Commandant of the Marine Corps authorized the following verses of The Marines’ Hymn as the official version:
The Marines’ Hymn
“From the Halls of Montezuma To the shores of Tripoli; We fight our country’s battles On the land as on the sea; First to fight for right and freedom And to keep our honor clean; We are proud to claim the title Of United States Marine.
Our flag’s unfurled to every breeze From dawn to setting sun; We have fought in ev’ry clime and place Where we could take a gun; In the snow of far-off Northern lands And in sunny tropic scenes; You will find us always on the job The United States Marines
Here’s health to you and to our Corps Which we are proud to serve; In many a strife we’ve fought for life And never lost our nerve; I f the Army and the Navy Ever look on Heaven’s scenes; They will find the streets are guarded By United States Marines.”
With all the discussion about appropriateness of mentions of God, when does music or other swell things simply and clearly just inspire the human ethos?
Dear Friend Calbab: "Make a joyful noise unto the L-rd all lands. Serve the L-rd with gladness. Come before His presence with singing".
I like this song.
I think music does elevate the human spirit.
Both religious and humanitarian.
I do see a place for both or each, depending on who is listening.
The world is a better place for music and the arts.
Peace and Abundant Blessings Always to You and Yours.
Enoch.
Music conveys a myriad of emotions! It is the reason we smile, bop, bob, snap fingers, dance, and truly cry when a songwriter gets it exquisitely right to our senses.
The humanitarian can value the truth in a well-versed song, even while leaving its sanctity for another. The human spirit can ascend to different states of high by a battle hymn of the republic! Sad is the one who can not esteem the valiant and pity the dying celebrated in words, harmony, and sounds.
I remember the 'days of my youth' when I wandered far and wide in search of knowing, never did it cross my mind to shut out the honest real feelings that a serene, rousing, or effervescent collection of words and orchestrated performance could pull out of me.
The human spirit is real and it can not be denied its appropriate attention or reactions. It will break forth in any and all of us one way or another.
Dear Friend and Brother in Spirit Calbab: Perfectly expressed.
Thank you.
Peace and Abundant Blessings Always.
Enoch.
Is it being broadcast by a publicly-supported radio station?
When a president exclaims, "God Bless America!" is it public?
I am so happy you brought this to us! Thank you.
"Kind of makes you think of alot of things." — This Is The Army (1943)
That's is what it does. It's patriotic and uplifting. Same as other transcendent and 'large than life' tunes.
Ronan Tynan - God Bless America - A Capitol Fourth - PBS - July 4, 2015
Note: Please skip pass the long intro by Mr. Tom Arnold. The song and the display of it are sensational. Do notice the Capitol settting.
That was totally awesome. I am such a cry baby patriotic sort of person. This stuff gets to me. That is the way I was raised. Love of Country, love of family. My Dad would have loved this.
Note: I was given a "solid" by John Russell that the presenter for Mr. Ronan Tynan is not Mr. Arnold but another 'fabulous' person. John, I closed your chat before I could 'learn' the name properly. Moreover, for the life of me I can not find the man's name on the web. If you care to assist I sincerely will appreciate that. (I would like to give the presenter his name back!)
Thank you magnoliaave! Stellar!
The Tom Arnold look alike who introduced Ronan Tynan on this occasion is the actor Bradley Whitford , who is probably best known for being one of the main cast members of the tv show The West Wing.
STELLAR!! You the man, Mr. Russell!!! Bradley Whitford. . . I will remember him for life.
Get a real life, Sandy, in the USA!
I am in the USA, mags. And I know the First Amendment.
See, having conversed with Calbab before, I have a feeling I know what he was getting at. He's against making laws that discriminate against, for example, gays, but when it comes to keeping religion out of government, well, that tends to be a step too far for him.
I really don't care what songs are played on a privately-owned station, but if a publicly-supported organization decides to promote one religion, it has to promote them all. Here in the USA. According to the Constitution we are supposed to hold dear.
Saying "god bless America" doesn't make one a good American. Upholding the Constitution does. I know some would like to tie religiosity to patriotism, but that's wishful thinking, not supported by the documents by which our nation is governed. Christians have no special status here, much as you'd like to believe otherwise.
Hi Sandy, I am for compromise, peace between the maximum number of people and groups, I am for equal representation of the citizenry across the board. I am for people diversity in every setting: from prison to Heaven.
My motto is: "People, God I love you so much."*
* (Even, badfish. I love Hal too (a little less than most—but okay; Yeah!)
Yes! Yes! Yes! It's time! In the words of the late, great, comedian Joan Rivers, "Oh America grow up!"
Reorganize (refresh) the national mindset! Stop oppressing and repressing our legal citizenry. People who obey laws deserve to be preferred and treated affirmatively from sea to shining sea. This country were it to get its collective self together once and for all could shout with a loud voice, "Baffle is dead!" "We broke the Tower!"
Too big. Too interesting. Too stellar. ???
We are small, often fiendish, and tribal. Perhaps?
Let's chat about what you've written here, Sandy. The fact is, a pocketful of soul-stirring hymns and a set of hand salutes have made many a recruit last out a military career. "It kinda makes you think of a lot of things."
About the Constitution. As any conservative will point out to you and me (liberals), that "document" only guarantees you what it says in total. The conservative argument to this day is every other law obtained in any American court can be reverted due to it being extra-constitutional. In other words, the issues we liberals care about were never ratified by any constitutional amendment.
That is the the sum of their argument. Recently (2015), Chief Justice Roberts used this very construction in his dissent against same-sex marriage passage being enacted by what he negatively referred to as "majority unelected justices" instead of the U.S. legislature.
The conservatives will not rest and accept atheists and secularists walking away with the governmental "ball." In addition, they will fight to never permit liberals to gain any amendment empowering full secularization of our government no matter the intent of the Establishment Clause.
So can we dream of singing off the same sheet called, compromise, like the nation used to do? In the Senate, Sen. McCain called it "regular order."
Based on past conversations, I'm not so sure this is true.
If it were, music mentioning the Christian god wouldn't be the only religion represented in your idea of "Americana".
I'm all for that, including not forcing those of our legal citizenry who do not believe as you do to support the promotion of your unprovable beliefs just because you happen to find yourself in the majority.
Play whatever songs you like.
Wedge your god into whatever issue you choose, including "Americana".
But recognize that American values allow for and indeed encourage pushback against YOUR god being representative of "Americana". The United States Constitution recognizes NO god as above any other, and really doesn't care if there's a god or not.
So? Do soldiers of other religions not deserve inspiring songs? Are songs that glorify America with no mention of gods less valid than those that do?
No.
And as far as allowing "conservatives" to finagle their god into our government - well, you advocate for capitulation, IMO. That's how we get schools in Kentucky teaching biblical literacy classes (but never Quran literacy classes), and taxpayers subsidizing Creation "Museums" and non-seaworthy arks while their counties go bankrupt. That's where your compromise gets us. Teaching Christianity in public schools, and paying for discriminatory businesses to exist, while being unable to pay for emergency services.
No capitulation.
You misunderstood me. I love people, and GOOD people all the more. I talk about my specifics in life because they represent me. I expect others to "champion" their causes in a similar fashion.
Sandy, I push for a near total change in the United States model. I am a Christian who has come to grips that I live in a capitalist country with a constitution guaranteeing many, not all, classes of citizens, a place in the sun. When I write to you that I want equal representation for citizens I mean it. Of course, it has to be made "doable." No! I do not want the abusive factors from any culture to show itself! Who in their right mind would?
But in the "melting pot" that is us - many small groups can be made workable and pushed up the canopy towards the sun. That includes atheists, humanists, and secularists too. Remember this, I, and folks like me, have never held anyone down. My, our, plea for peace and compromise is real, honest, and sincere.
Sandy, I truly love you and people in general: This much!
The U.S. Constitution by design is a tool placed in the hands of people. It is men and women fearful of changing, enhancing, or generally correcting any defect in it, that fashion it into a weapon through employing lawyers; people who drain out and dry up any compassion left in such a deliberative document.
Sandy, when you and I shall die, some loved one or stranger shall search high and low for meaningful, expressive words and phrases to evoke the affect of our living on them and the surrounding world. That person will likely find meaning encapsulated in a timeless classical writing or song. National events live, perish, and are memorialized in a similar fashion.
Something swells in one or several of us and pencil is put to paper or score. Thus, a new standard is born. Religious people break forth into writing. I'd imagine naturalists do as well. Very often these discussions are about "us,". . . and not "you." Go ahead, tell us about your favorite standard. What grand song/s elevates your life?
So let's discuss the standards you place value in. What is your offering to "Americana," Sandy? Let us cheer your values on for a spell and not leave any one out!
Capitulation?! Hod on now. Elevate. No one is asking you or me for that matter to support unworkable ideas. You just jumped from artistry to politics. That is a different category of issues, dilemmas, and circumstance altogether! I do not expect you to support bad religion anymore than you can expect me to support bad science. Sandy, poor quality is simply worthless in any measure.
Yes, that's why it's had so many amendments, many for the express purpose of guaranteeing equal rights under the law to groups which had been denied them.
As to the rest of your post, I don't care if people write, sing, or play religious songs. But I can tell you that if those mourning my passing chose a religious song to express their grief, I would not see it as any greater expression of love than a nonreligious song.
So I find it odd that your choice of "Americana" seems limited to religion-infused songs, with a bit of persecution complex peeking out there when you hint that they're not allowed to be played in public. Of course they are. Trying to imply otherwise with a loaded question is dishonest. I object to government support for the deliberate entwining of religion and patriotism by some Christians, and the "go along to get along" position I'm told to take by those who say they uphold religious freedom, but do not see that forcing nonbelievers to pay taxes to support religion contradicts that concept.
This is not about my choices of Americana. We are discussing your offering. Don't deflect.
You just jumped from artistry to politics.
No, this article did. You brought up songs and "Americana" and whether it is permissible to play religious patriotic songs in public.
I do not expect you to support bad religion
Whether religion is "bad" is in the eye of the beholder. We have had frequent discussions regarding my issues with the immorality of the Abrahamic god as characterized in the Bible. I would consider a religion that worships a jealous, violent, vengeful god to be a bad religion.
So you said all of this to signify what, Sandy? That you have no important values that inspire you to achieve and elevate yourself and others? I asked you a sincere question, because we never discuss what you are positive about to any substantive length. You can not be bitterly against religion "all day long," that can be quite tiresome.
So open up, let me, us, into Sandy's atheistic life. What about the American way of life do you love to your core?
You're putting words in my mouth. Don't do that. It's dishonest.
You can not be bitterly against religion "all day long," that can be quite tiresome.
I'm not. I just don't want to support yours, while you would ask me to do so.
What about the American way of life do you love to your core?
The freedom to not support violent imaginary deities.
I have offered some discussion videos where public spaces are being used to refer (songs ) to God. In the process of doing so, I have discovered something about myself in the beauty of those transmissions dug up for presentation. In addition, a couple of other commenters have supplied great secular songs that rank right up their in their sense of purity of pain and spirit. Frankly, at first, I balked at them, then I listened, and some of it "affected" me and another I leave for the community to be touched by.
This is who I am as an individual, Sandy.
I have never responded to you till now.
You are off the page. In another realm.
You protest so loudly it is as if you are begging for help. There is no help for you until you acknowledge that some people are different from you which includes those of us who believe in God. We don't care that you don't....that's on you, girl.
When will you get it into your head that we don't CARE!
You don't like the Abrahamic God? Ok! So, what else yanks your chain? Christians follow the New Testament, but respect the Old Testament.
God is Great....God is Good....God is Love!
This seed was suppose to have been about America, but you brought it to another level!!!!!!!
Good for you.
Why the implication of persecution?
I believe you told me to get a life, mag, so you're not entirely telling the truth here, are you?
I responded to calbab's implication of persecution. He's asking loaded questions, and then not getting the answers he likes.
When have I ever refused to acknowledge that there are people who believe in god? What an absurd claim, given that I'm holding a discussion with people who obviously believe in god.
You are right....I did.
You are vehemently certain that your way is the right way while I am just as certain that mine is.
Nothing complicated about me. I am conservative. I am a Christian. I am a mother and a grandmother. That little fella who is my avatar is the light of my life,
I have busted up a drug gang, I have supported special needs children, I have run for political office, I have coached and refereed soccer, I have been a TV and radio personality, but I am not special.
The only thing I ever did special in this life was adopt my oldest son and give birth to my youngest son. Another gift I received was from my Mother.....my precious sister.
Carry on, Sandy. God Bless!
Just stop it, Sandy. One thing you can be assured of is for all my lack in life, which you can not possibly know because I do not share it with you, I do not feel persecuted in any sense of the word right now. I will not engage you in such projection any longer.
If you persist in "mirroring" your own attitudes that is your prerogative, but I will comment with images and not plain and simple words. So talk to me at not at me going forward. That's all.
Can this song be broadcasted over the speakers in public today?
Why ask that question, when you already know the answer is "yes"?
There! You have an answer as well. Religious themed music is equally represented in American culture as any other class. Like everything else in life, just keep matters in balance and good taste.
What is your friggin problem?
You just keep on.
Go have dinner or a good night's sleep!
Mag, this is a public forum.
Which you abuse. It is not a "Caesar" moment.
Flag my comments, then.
OK guys... not worth getting worked up about. Take a deep breath.
Song doesn't bother me at all. If God can bless America, I wish it would. What would be wrong with that?
--------------------
In 1938, with the rise of Adolf Hitler , Irving Berlin, who was Jewish and had arrived in America from Russia at the age of five, felt it was time to revive it as a "peace song," and it was introduced on an Armistice Day broadcast in 1938, sung by Kate Smith on her radio show. [7] Berlin had made some minor changes; by this time, "to the right" might have been considered a call to the political right, so he substituted "through the night" instead. He also provided an introduction that is now rarely heard but which Smith always used: "While the storm clouds gather far across the sea / Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free / Let us all be grateful for a land so fair, / As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer." (In her first broadcast of the song, Kate Smith sang "that we're far from there" rather than "for a land so fair".) [4] This was changed when Berlin published the sheet music in March 1939. [4]
Woody Guthrie criticized the song, which he considered unrealistic and complacent, and in 1940 he wrote " This Land Is Your Land ," originally titled "God Blessed America For Me," as a response. [ citation needed ] Anti-Semitic groups such as the Ku Klux Klan also protested against the song due to its authorship by a Jewish immigrant. [4]
.....The song was sung by the main characters in Michael Cimino 's 1978 war film The Deer Hunter . Regarding the song in the film, Roger Ebert says in his March 9, 1979 review: "It [the film] ends on a curious note: The singing of 'God Bless America'. I won't tell you how it arrives at that particular moment... but I do want to observe that the lyrics of 'God Bless America' have never before seemed to me to contain such an infinity of possible meanings, some tragic, some unspeakably sad, some few still defiantly hopeful".
Super nice, Mr. Russell!
A fifty state ensemble publicly speaks for itself:
"Good Old Fashion Americana". Lordy, I love that!
I can hear her singing it in my head.
As a side note....I sang "God Bless America" while I was in high school during half time at a football game. I was on one end of the field and the high school band was on the other end. My singing coach directed my singing as a couldn't hear the band. Will never forget it.
I talked to God the other day. He said "why the fuck would I bless a country?"
Well it did not take any decency to put that number together. It is clear that SOMEBODY is gnashing their teeth!
That's not clever nor funny!
Pretty much shows the grade level of the poster.
Oh ok, I'm childish - lol. You are thinking that a sky fairy is blessing (whatever that even means) the country that you live in, but it's not blessing other countries - and that's not childish. Sure thing.
I don't know about you being childish, but the statement was.
The song is "God Bless America". Now, if the song was entitled God Bless France or wherever the same would apply.
There is no secret on where both of us stand on the subject of God. As a matter of fact, I believe everyone on NT knows.
I don't make comments about an atheist and don't know why you insist on making rude comments about God.
It's just an expression, but that doesn't change the fact that it's nonsensical. Do you think that there's a god who is favoring one country over another? Does it have a favorite baseball team too?
No one even suggested that He favors one country over another nor one person over another. We are asking God to bless America and other countries can do the same.
I look at God Bless America as more of a plea than a demand. It was originally written during WWI and then re-worked a little to oppose Hitler in the run up to WW2.
To me it is a patriotic song much more than a religious song and doesn't bother me as long it is not ridiculously overdone.
For all anyone knows, God is a nazi. He won't tell us anything about himself.
America is full of capitalists, greed, discrimination, racism, and a host of other traits that Jesus would be appalled by. I highly doubt his daddy would bless that.
Why do you want to say stuff like this?
I am finished!
You do not have any respect for any "God" and you have made this clear time and time again, Hal. So what is the meaning of this self-styled patronizing?!
Hal,
I got to agree. If you are going to make an argument against god, than do so, instead of making comments that don't forward a discussion. (disclaimer, I say this as a member and not the RA).
What do you call this:
America is full of capitalists, greed, discrimination, racism, and a host of other traits that Jesus would be appalled by. I highly doubt his daddy would bless that.
Do you have a problem with that statement? What about American life do you think is in harmony with the teachings of Jesus? He said (supposedly) to worship in private, treat people as you would treat yourself, turn the other cheek, and many more things that are routinely ignored in this country. Instead, we have a country that is openly bigoted, a culture that is driven by profit, an economy that excludes the poor, and a religious environment that drives citizens to discriminate while extracting their hard earned money. If Jesus is real, and he comes back, my words will mean more to him than any other bullshit that gets written on this site - and I am an atheist.
Hal,
I don't think that America is perfect and I do think more often than not, people fall short of their best selves and fall short of other people's expectations.
Jesus' teachings are good. Whether or not you think he is god is irrelevant. Do I think that we have more hypocrites in America that preach his word and then don't follow it? Probably. But I think that is probably true of ethical humanist, too. Hypocrisy and intolerance is the at the butt of the issue and both have enough of it to fill a stadium and then some.
You aren't understanding where I'm coming from. I'm not saying humanists are better people than religionists. It's just that we don't have some ancient code that we claim to go by, like religionists do even though they clearly aren't. Claiming to live by the teachings of Jesus and being an average American citizen are two concepts that are at odds with one another. People claim Jesus thinking that will reflect well on them, but the reality is that the Jesus character would not be impressed by any aspect of the American lifestyle. Saying Christians fall short of the expectations of Jesus is like saying poop falls short of the expectations of potpourri.
Why would you quote half of my comment? My whole comment obviously means more than the cherry you picked from it.
Please clarify
True. But most faiths and non faiths would say that we can be a selfish people. Why single out Christians?
Six,
I didn't get disdain from Hal's comment about this country. I got that he feels that most people who say that they are believers do not follow the tenets of their faith.
Please clarify
How many people do you know that actually resemble the Christ character?
I would say that one of the only people I've ever met that reminded me of the Christ character, was a guy on the Venice Beach boardwalk who was selling beautiful artwork out of his van, which looked to be his home as well. He was genuinely at peace like I've never witnessed in a person before, and when he gazed at me I just felt like this guy was special in some way. He had his wears spread out all over the place with no concern that anything could have been easily stolen this way. I brought a piece to him to ask if he haggles, and he softly said "how much would you like to pay?" He accepted my offer without even thinking about it. He was not concerned about money, he just seemed to want his works to go to good places. He was a Buddhist, calmly living on next to nothing, and with no negativity surrounding him. He was like no Christian I have ever met.
I talked to God the other day. He said "why the fuck would I bless a country?"
I shouldn't have laughed but I did.
Hallelujah! A Global Mash-up of Handel's 'Messiah' from the PBS NewsHour*
Please notice at the end of the video, PBS staff is prominently featured singing along in its offices!
Naval Academy Glee Club Tribute to Pear Harbor. "Eternal Father," The Navy Hymn.
Public Service - Public Land - Public Performance.
Why do nations create, search out, and select hymns, anthems, and identity music to unify its people? Because of the inherent transcendence in the words and sounds! National spirit. the soul of a nation, leaps when certain words and melodies are combined.
It's relative.
Awesome! Stellar! Conscious! Awake! Identity!
If we do not tell our narrative through songs, pictures, statues, dances, and all other mediums some other nation will certainly attempt to do so for us and mostly get us all wrong (like the neighbors down every street in America whom we never got properly introduced to).
The problem is that the court's interpretation of the constitution on this point doesn't make sense.
The first amendment restricts congress from adopting a religion. It doesn't prevent states or anybody else from doing it and, in fact, colonies either had state religion or endorsed it to some degree. After the civil war, congress enacted the 14th amendment to ensure that states couldn't make newly freed slaves second class citizens. It had absolutely nothing to do with religion. However, because of loose wording, the Court interpreted the "liberty" language in the 14th amendment to encompass the restriction in the First amendment, even though that would was clearly outside the intent of the drafters.
So what we have now is the ridiculous notion that the 14th amendment prohibits uplifting music because it mentions God.
14th Amendment
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Note: 2 - 4 sections left out as irrelevant to this discussion.
Section 5.
The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
Source:
Wait, when and where has 'uplifting music' been prohibited? Except at school functions, I haven't heard about any such thing.
The Battle Hymn of the Republic Performed by the U.S. Army Chorus (PBS Newshour)
This song is full of reference to God, likewise it is a standard of the fighting corps of this nation! These song are national treasures. Is it any wonder schools would openly play honored songs and music?
In 1929 the Commandant of the Marine Corps authorized the following verses of The Marines’ Hymn as the official version:
A national treasure.