The Weight of Memory - the 1960's and 1970's Vietnam and America Coming Apart
I wasn't going to watch the PBS series "Vietnam". But I was drawn to it for many reasons. I just finished watching the last episode and thought that I would put down some of my thoughts on that period of American history.
I guess the first thing that I want to say is that if you think America is divided today, you were not around in that time period. Vietnam, Civil Rights, protests, war in the streets and the cities. Political lies, military lies, violations of civil rights. America was exploding and Americans were dying in S.E. Asia and on the streets of America. A President was impeached and a VP left in disgrace.
The series by Ken Burns and Lynn Novick is a outstanding. It starts at the end of WWII, yes we were in Vietnam for many years before the ''official'' start of the war 1964. American were dying there as early as 1945. It covers the French occupation and their defeat.
The series is from the viewpoint of the common man/women, American, South Vietnamese and North Vietnamese. It is also a historical masterpiece. If you choose to watch it, you'll learn many things that are little or unknown to the American public.
Early on, the early 1960's many military leaders knew we could not win this war. A book to read that is a compliment of this series is, ''A Bright and Shining Lie'' John Paul Vann, an American in Vietnam.
The division caused by the war still exist today. There are many different views of that time period, but by watching the series it may change your mind or give you cause to rethink that part of American history.
I've had a few sleepless nights since I started watching it. Perhaps I opened a door that I had closed decades ago, I really don't know.
Here is a link to a review of the series. http://www.vulture.com/2017/09/the-vietnam-war-pbs-review.html
Mind the CoC, it's about American history and events that changed America. Lets stick to that.
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To the 58,000 plus Americans and hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese that died.
Broken Promises.
Broken promises?
ABSO-fucking-LUTLY!
I only hope it was as good as the 10,000 year war....
I think that you mean the 10,000 Day War.
IMO, Vietnam is better than the 10,000 Day War.
{chuckle}
Aa Hemm....
Yeah that one..... (10,000 day war)
Downloading it now, will watch it over the next few days...
My Veiw of the Vietnam war was coloured by news, such as Kent State, by movies (although many may have been fiction, Casualties of War was based on a true situation), and my friendship and even partnership in a successful business, with American draft dodgers. Naturally, I have wondered why that war was necessary.
Many Americans wonder the same thing Buzz, IMO it wasn't.
If you watch the documentary it touches on some interesting facts like the fact that Ho Chi Minh originally wanted a government like that of the US, read parts of our Constitution to his people and that America immediately after WWII was receptive to a friendly relationship with him. It was his decision to choose Communism which changed the equation.
I am surprised (or maybe I missed it) the little known interview JFK had with James Reston wasn't included. Reston wrote a memoir entitled "Deadline":
"Kennedy told Reston he felt sure that Khrushchev thought that anybody who had made such a mess of the Cuban invasion had no judgment.
"Khrushchev," writes Reston, "had treated Kennedy with contempt, even challenging his courage, and whatever else Kennedy may have lacked, he didn't lack courage. He felt he had to act."
Soon thereafter Kennedy sent more advisers to the battlefront in Vietnam. Reston thought this was a "critical mistake," because once Kennedy had more than 15,000 advisers there, U.S. power and prestige were considered committed."
For me Buzz that is the answer there.
One other thing (among many) that struck me about the documentary was the way we see JFK giving permission for the Diem coup and how later he expressed regrets over making that decision once it was learned that Diem was executed. (He didn't think it could happen?)
His brother and Oliver Stone perpetuated that notion. Nobody will ever know what JFK would do had he lived. We could discuss what little evidence there is, but I'm more impressed with the amount of effort used to present that theory. It kind of reminds me of the way Elizabeth Custer (the General's widow) defended the Custer legacy.
Nope and we never will
Vic, Ho was a communist from the time that he lived in France, he founded a communist party there and of course in Vietnam. I don't believe that his being a communist was the deciding factor in our decision, although it played a big roll.
The messages he sent to Truman were asking that we stay out of the supporting the French return and allow Vietnam it's independence. What I did find interesting in the documentary was that those letters were found in CIA files and it's unknown if Truman ever say them.
When De Gaulle threatened the US with siding with the Russians, we capitulated and supported France.
One has to wonder if Truman didn't see the letters what the decision would have been had he seen them.
I did find that interesting as well. Our intelligence community was already a kind of deep state even back then. He did work with the OSS (mutual interests) to defeat the Japanese during their occupation of Vietnam. Too bad he couldn't have remained an ally instead of an adversary
I just may post Vietnam the 10,000 Year War for you Buzz, the whole reason for us being there was a lie...
The Vietnam war happened when I was in my teens. Footage of it flooded the evening news every night. I really don't want to revisit that horror.
The series is a lot more than what was seen on TV Pat...It's a real lesson in history that I hope we never repeat again.
I watched the first episode and havent seen the rest yet, but I will.
It will be well worth your time JR.
I'm sure it will be.
I get what Pat is saying. For us kids who grew up watching it on the news every night... body bags, body counts, this offense and that offense... it seemed like there would never be a time that there wasn't going to be a war.
But I also remember the assassinations, the unrest on college campuses, Kent state, Hippies and Yippies, the drug culture, the hijackings, the uncountable terrorist groups.
For me, the war was also personal. My dad was out there.
Despite that I did watch most of this series. I learned a lot of the back scene things I never knew about. It was weird looking back on what I experienced.
I have to agree with you, that I don't think we are as divided a nation as we were then. The only difference is it seems more intense, since we have mass media.
Mass media and not nearly the violence that happened then. At least not yet.
I just thank god mine wasn't, if he had stayed in he would have went as an advisor to the French..... (yes we had advisors there in the 50's)
We were all young back then and we all had an ideal of what and how things should be. that was the age I took a tour of America. I had this need to be involved. It was a painful experience....
What did I learn?
Everyside thinks they are right, and they believe they have the right to beat your brains in if you don't agree.
but when it comes right down to it, on an inner level we all know we are Americans first and foremost. and we all want the same things, even if we have to beat the crap out of each other to prove it.
I watched it all and enjoyed it as good TV but it's a bit lacking in historical thoroughness. I really don't think that was Burn's intent but rather i can only imagine the difficulty of trying to weave all the required historical truth of such a complex issue into the time he had. I like Ken Burn's stuff but i think this was a really tough one for him.
It was more simplistic to me as i recall. I was about three years short of getting drafted so the questions weighed heavily on our teenage minds. Even then, for me it was simply about trying to stop the spread of communism and following in the footsteps of my father, uncles and grandfather before me. Folks who didn't grow up during the cold war will never understand that. Now matter how much is filmed or written about it.
I had friends that were in the anti war movement and i was fine with that until they got mentally or physically abusive with vets. Then they became former friends. I couldn't, wouldn't stand for that BS. Protest the war? Fine but don't be a prick to those who made a different choice. That remains a sore spot for me to this day.
I was in the Anti-war protest movement I also broke with friends that were throwing shit at the returning troops. I know they write about the troops being spat on, but that's not what I saw....
I still had my draft card, when I was busted at the pentagon, the MP's cleaned out my pockets and when they found it they all smirked abd said what would a punk like me do in the military, piss my pants? I would do exactly what my father did before me was my answer. And what was that? the asked sneeringly.
From Feburary 1942 till December 1953 he served under General Douglas MacArthur all the way across the pacific.
And he knows I'm here and is proud of me...
That seemed to shut them up....
And if called I would have gone and served, gladly. It is what Americans are supposed to do when called...
I think that sort of thing tended to happen mainly in bigger cities but make no mistake it did happen. Lesser so in the smaller Midwestern towns like mine. The bigger insult there was when organizations like the VFW would not accept Vietnam Vets into their fold. That was really fucked up. Many of my Vietnam Vet friends will never join the VFW because of that and i don't blame them one bit.
Birthday wise, I was about a month from the time my number was about to come up to be drafted. I always hated killing anything and only went hunting with my dad once or twice even because it bothered me so much as a young man to kill or watch anything be killed.
So, I was sh&6%ing my pants !
I'm not afraid to die... I'm more "afraid" to kill. I did not want to go. I was so glad I wasn't forced into a choice of WTF to do as well. Many weren't so damn lucky.
As a slight redemption (for my own feelings at least) I'm fortunate enough now to be semi-retired and working part time with disabled veterans.
I dont know which way I would have went to this day, Canada or vietnam.
I'm just damn glad I didn't have to decide and I respect the others who did have to decided and their decision whatever they did decide as well. It's not for me to judge. Hell I dont know for sure even WTF I would have done.
To this day I'm so grateful in this day and age we dont have to kill what we eat, cause I'm not a vegetarian and I like to eat. lol
PS: I watched the show, captivating ! Very well done and very informative. It hit on so many aspects and flowed along nicely.
You're honest in your comment. I would imagine that many were in the same conundrum as you were.
I did my time twice in Nam....I saw where this war was going, the phony body counts, the lying the wasting of American blood the FUBAR it was. At that point I had to do a lot of hard and difficult thinking as to what was I going to do about. I was going to make the Army by career, but after that I decided to walk away.
IMO, Vietnam divided the country more than anything that I can remember. Only the Civil War was more divisive.
Thank you.
I'm sorry you did, I'm sorry all of you did or were even asked or yet worse told to and basically forced to.
......"I'm sorry you did"...... I say it like that because I'm a firm believer in choice. I choose what I do or dont do 99 % of the time. (well, as much as I fuckin possibly can) lol
I try to be and am very pro American. Although I'm a realist and see the problems we have had caused and added to world wide. 241 years as a nation and 221 years of it at war on in a police action, I dont think of as anything to be especially proud of considering my stance on killing.
I didn't create any life and feel no right to end it either.
However, I've always been conflicted as I believe in protecting what's yours and fighting for good.
O but if life were but simple eh ?
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I've always respected the people who did serve whether voluntary or forced to though, I knew frontline ws nothing for me or even anything where it was kill or be killed or your buddies die. I was not solder material and I knew it.
I also have a strong rebel side in me that would have cause me all kinds of problems in conforming the authority of any military operation. I'm sure they would have changed or at least tried to change that...LOL No Thanks !
"I was going to make the Army by career, but after that I decided to walk away."
One of my best friends at the time actually enlisted and ended up retiring from the Army. He never saw combat and never even went overseas as the war was winding down about that time as well. Although none of us knew it at the time.
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Anyway thanks again for your service. Respectfully
I was 9 months out. I knew, if I wound up with a rifle in my hands I did not want an M16.
One of the guys we hunted with every year worked for the organization that became NIST in Gaithersburg, MD. He was on the team assigned to "fix" the M16. Every year I would ask him, what is going on. There were always updates and changes; different powder, different materials, different clearances, different maintenance procedures, etc. End result, nothing they did for that war for the M16 made me feel good.
I developed a recurring dream. It was the same damn dream every night for months. I was behind a fallen tree in a clearing, taking fire and the damn rifle wouldn't shoot. I was so damn angry. One night my brain turned it off. Unfortunately, it turned off all dreams. That lasted well over a decade.
9 months later it became a moot point except I didn't dream for another decade and some.