The Next Great Discovery

Discussion: I recognize that this topic can have many points of discussion, and I would hate to limit that.  I only ask that you be respectful of my views and of each other and keep discussion relevant to the post.  An example of a suitable discussion would involve how you might explain death to a child without a religious lens.  An example of an unsuitable discussion would be that this is a key example of how millennials are too idealistic, guesses on my political views, and arguments in favor of a religious viewpoint.  At no point in this post have I bashed religion: I have said that there is a possibility god exists, and that there is a possibility god doesn't exist.  Please respect that and don't make arguments to convince me or anyone else one way or the other regarding a specific religious belief.  Your energy will be wasted.  However, respectful and thought-provoking comments regarding the existence of god and an afterlife are welcome.

Dear Friend Anonymous Millennial: Welcome to the site.

I wish you great and fulfilling experiences here.

Please use the site private notes function.

If you send me a private note with a private email, I can send you an article I wrote, published some years back.

It is entitled, "Explaining Death to a Five Year Old".

It is a product of what I do in Chaplaincy.

It is written to be of value to anyone, no matter if they are religious, what religious, spiritual or humanitarian approach to living life they choose.  

I hope it is of value to you.

Peace and Abundant Blessings.

Enoch.

Hi Enoch: Thank you for your reply! I will be sure to do so, and I look forward to reading it (though please bear with me if I take a while to get back to you... I am a graduate student and I am currently working on a review article for publication, so my focus is elsewhere.  Please trust me that I look forward to sitting down with your article when I have a free moment.)

Dear Friend Anonymous Millennial: I am sure you will do use all proud on your publication work.

You have all our support.

Peace and Abundant Blessings.

Enoch.

Death may be the next great discovery.

Or it might just be the end.

So we should make the most of the time we have.  Eat, drink, and be merry.  Try to improve our own lot in life, and that of others.   Learn.  Love.  Accept.  Create.  Leave our loved ones with cherished memories of us, and teach them to do the same for those they leave behind.

So we should make the most of the time we have.  Eat, drink, and be merry.  Try to improve our own lot in life, and that of others.   Learn.  Love.  Accept.  Create.  Leave our loved ones with cherished memories of us, and teach them to do the same for those they leave behind.

I completely agree! Remember that this was a personal thought experiment on how to make a child less scared of death.  However, we should make the most of our lives by discovering all life has to offer.  Not just through learning, but also through loving and creating.  Perhaps a better title for this, then, would be "The Last Great Discovery."

My opening will be a question: The afterlife needs an anchor to this world. How can one address an afterlife in today's world apart from religion (lens) or faith? Especially, since apart from the metaphysical not much "though-provoking" energy touches on life beyond death.

I think I follow what your saying, though I am not sure I agree with it.  The whole concept of an afterlife is that it is apart from this world. It exists or doesn't exist regardless of whether or not you believe in it - whether or not it is "anchored" to this world.  That is the point of what I am trying to say here.  As an agnostic, I cannot in good conscience tell a child that there is an afterlife to assuage their concerns about death, because I wouldn't want to lie to my future child (to be clear, I am not saying that belief in the afterlife is a lie.  I am simply saying that selling a bill of goods that I do not necessarily subscribe to would be lying.  If you DO believe in god and an afterlife to the point of near certainty, then telling a child who fears dying about god and the afterlife would be appropriate.).  

Additionally, I think that even many people of faith still have moments of doubt, such that even if you raise a child to believe in the afterlife, many children will often question that at some point in their lives (I did speech and debate through the catholic forensics league when I was in high school, and I met many teens raised in the church who questioned the beliefs they had been raised with).  If a parent, then, had based that child's comfort with death upon a foundation of god and the afterlife, what should happen psychologically to that child if they begin to doubt what they have been taught.  My idea is that by positing the idea that an afterlife exists (an alternative hypothesis), against a null hypothesis that the afterlife does not exist, one can prepare a child for the certainty of death without making assumptions about that child's future beliefs.

First let me clarify something. I have no children of my own. Thus, I will not be speaking from a parenting place. More than this about myself, I will reserve for another day. Or, you may glean from my other site sharings. (Smile.)

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My point is there is an ethos around the afterlife in this world. That is, world religions. Certainly, at least as far as we know of, this order of life is not the Afterlife.

People who write and speak about "such matters" have strong unctions of a spiritual kind—going beyond flesh. For flesh disintegrates and "evaporates." Having arrived at the threshold of such matters and entering in, what are these people ("believers') feeling and expressing for the duration of their lives?

If believers show no outward signs of gross delusional thinking, then seriously what can we say about what it is they share with the world? Do we feel better and safe when we are around them? That counts much.

Always tell a child, children the truth. Find the age-appropriate words, truthful words! Even about matters talked about in our world which remain a mystery, a confusion, and a deception. All children can handle the truth-if even present in measured doses. Remember as a child what you desired to know above all from your elders: The truth.

Moreover, as children soon to be teens, we despised and felt strong emotionally betrayal when we learned from strangers truths we should have learned earlier on from our "parents' knee." It was an ultimate betrayal! And, we each had to swallow hard to forgive those who left us vulnerable to a lie. To disinformation. To "strangers." 

People believe a great many things. My suggestion is people should share what they know, what they hope for, and stipulate plenty of matters in our world are uncertain, but have long established writings and voices of support steeped back in time, nevertheless. All with an understanding that for a child ultimately, the decision, conclusions reached, held to, and modified as needed, must be his or her own to possess for now.

AM: My idea is that by positing the idea that an afterlife exists (an alternative hypothesis), against a null hypothesis that the afterlife does not exist, one can prepare a child for the certainty of death without making assumptions about that child's future beliefs.

I fully accept and agree with this balanced statement. (Smile.)

If the kid asked me what death was like I would them it is exactly the same as before you were born. I would not say anything about a God or an afterlife as we have never seen any evidence of either. I can see why others might handle the situation differently but that is out of my control and their choice. 

I actually really like that explanation.  I was recently visiting with family, and my little (6 yo) cousin asked the complementary question: who was she before she was born.  I told her, "well, you didn't even exist yet.  It wasn't like you weren't there - it was more like no one even knew that there was a possibility that you could be there." And she said (quite smartly... I'm very smitten with her...), "So, it's kind of like you're dead twice.  Once before your life, and once after."  I think that really fits in with what you're saying, and I also like that explanation.  

Nice article anon.   

I am a great supporter of following the evidence to where it leads.   But I also understand why some feel the need to answer unanswered questions with speculation.   And of course this opens the door for many religions each with their own 'speculative certainty'.

There is something very liberating in being able to state 'I (we) do not (yet) know'.    As a parent, I have been careful to answer such questions with my sons using language that allows them to explore existential issues with minimal bias (at least from Dad).   Mostly I talk about science, what we think is most likely based on the evidence.   In particular, they know it is possible that there might be a sentient creator of the known universe but that nobody really knows.   I think that is vastly superior to telling them that no evidence suggests God is impossible or to lie and offer them comforting religious teachings regarding death and afterlife.

Unfortunately, I won’t have those facts until I die.

Logically, we may never have those facts.   If death is the end of our ability to comprehend we will live our entire lives without that information.   IMO, best to treat this life we have as precious because it likely is the only one we have.

But I also understand why some feel the need to answer unanswered questions with speculation.   And of course this opens the door for many religions each with their own 'speculative certainty'.

I 100% agree.  I totally understand those who feel the need to answer these questions with faith, and I do not disparage those who feel that way.  I simply don't.  Like you said though, I would like to acknowledge in my explanation that there is a possibility that god does exist, and if they do choose to subscribe to that belief system, as long as they remain respectful of mine, I would admire their independence in choosing that path, despite the fact that I am agnostic myself.  

Finally, just as you said, I am not an atheist or a theist, because it is my personal belief as a person of science (no disrespect all the atheists and theists out there) that the evidence that would allow us to confirm OR DENY the existence of god (or gods, or even some supreme collective energy) and an afterlife is not available to us, and may never be, and I feel that either approach requires us to make assumptions.  I agree with what you said: that if there is no afterlife then technically we cannot consciously comprehend the lack thereof, but again, this was just a thought experiment on how to broach the topic of death with a child who fears it.  If you maybe have some suggestions on how I might edit this approach without changing the take home message to account for this dilemma, I would greatly appreciate it.

this was just a thought experiment on how to broach the topic of death with a child who fears it.

Not to speak for TiG, but here's my two cents:

Treat it just like Santa Claus. Let them have the fantasy when they're young, and let them grow out of it when they're ready. That's how it was for me.

I remember the concept of death dawning on me as a child, being extremely disturbed by it, and finding comfort in the Heaven/afterlife belief I had already been exposed to. I was raised in a non-religious household, but was still baptized and sent to Sunday school when I was little. I think the intention was for me to have the same cultural experiences as any other kid my age, and for me to make up my own mind later on in life.

Religion was neither forced on me nor shunned at home. I was allowed to have it when I needed it as a child when death scared the hell out of me, and I was also allowed to grow out of it naturally on my own as I got older. I was never mentally coerced, so to speak, meaning that I was never made to feel rejected, threatened, or unsafe in my own home if I didn't profess belief in a particular thing.

I see no problem with allowing children to entertain fantasies that give them peace of mind. I think its actually pretty natural for them to do so. I feel the same about adults who are suffering one kind of mental anguish or another. I don't have religious or spiritual beliefs myself (not since my early teens, probably), and I might even think it's ridiculous for other adults to have them, but I'm not going to challenge someone on them if they're suffering and seeking solace, even in a fantasy. It strikes me as cruel to do so, and I try to reserve challenges or questions about religious beliefs for other more stable situations, hopefully with people who aren't desperately leaning on them for comfort at the time.

But again, with children, if it's obvious they need it, then I say let them have it the same as you would with Santa. I think preventing mental anguish and trauma in young minds is probably worth the indulgence of a little fantasy now and then. Hell, I think the need to comfort suffering minds played a huge role in the evolution of religion itself. At least a few religions, anyway (the personal savior ones), which appear to have been tailor-made for it.

Next, I would say to a child that as we can see our surrounding world full of amazingly warm and hostile kinds of bodies, as we keep searching about us for even more unknown kinds of bodies, as we gaze into the night sky and imagine celestial bodies of amazingly warm and hostile kinds, we should keep our innate sense of wonder awake as we seek to understand the role dying and death plays in coming alive.

To each their own of course but to me the question is easy Death is the cessation of life or there is life and then there is nothing. 

I agree from an adult perspective.  But I think that a scared child might not necessarily find this comforting.  My goal is to be honest about my beliefs -- or perhaps more accurately, my lack of belief in the existence or non-existance of an afterlife.  

However, I think that regardless of which way you believe, giving a child the opportunity to make their own decisions regarding such a complex and life-altering subject is best.  I think that even for someone who believes in god, it is not necessarily good to only present one's own beliefs to a child, who may end up rejecting them later in life and may then find themselves unprepared to deal with such complex issues outside of the framework that they have been provided.  

Likewise, I think that even for someone who assuredly does NOT believe in god, it is also not necessarily good to try to only present a child with that isolated viewpoint, as they may find themselves looking toward religion later in life and either feel embarrassed, or may be unprepared to approach religion in an unbiased way.  By this I mean that they may be confronted with recruitment propaganda that may promote some of the more distasteful sides of "religious sects" (such as homophobia, sexism, and intolerance of other faiths) as they enter into the religious realm.

 But I think that a scared child might not necessarily find this comforting

Of course each parent has to make what they believe is the best decision for themselves but unfortunately I am not without experience in this area.  It was this manner in which my father told me and my brother when we were 12 and 14 respectively that our mother had passed and how I told my kids when they were 4 and 2 that their mother had passed.

Of course it wasn't as unemotional as it sounds in type, there was much hugging, crying and assurances of love but it was made clear that mine and my kids mothers had died, were not watching from above and were never coming back.

Good article, good question, "why"...

... in every way we look at it, the why is always the hard question.

Here's one approach:

We are constantly looking for causality. If we don't want our lives to be random chaos, we must understand why things happen, in order to foresee them. We observe everything around us, and our memories of previous similar events permit us to "know" what will happen next.

So we learn very early to look for "why". And we feel a kind of stress when we don't understand "why".

"Why do I exist?" is a BIG "why", engendering considerable stress if unanswered. Some people answer with the Big Bang, the Bethe Cycle, and so on... But that's not really "why"; it's "how". That "rational" approach doesn't yield an answer to "why". That's stressful.

Others find an answer to "why" in less rational sources. Religious creation stories basically answer, "Because God wanted the world to exist." No more stress... as long as one can deny reality... which is inevitably another stress.

Of course, the rationalist eventually says, "There is no "reason". The world "is", and that's the end of it. Rationally correct but emotionally not satisfactory.

So nobody's happy, and we keep on asking....

We can’t answer why a collection of just cells talking to each other can do something so amazing as create thinking, believing, hoping, wishing human beings.

Or conversely when we create the computer inside of Turing's black box we automatically assume that it can't actually "think" or be conscious merely because it's something we built.   We have a real bias in that regard.

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But we can’t answer “who did it” and “why did it happen.” These are perhaps the greatest questions in the universe and science will never be able to answer them. And, as a scientist who has devoted her life to finding the answers to questions, this bothers me. And it doesn’t just bother scientists -- it bothers all people. 

One way to look at it is that humans expect agency even where none exists.   It's a survival trait.    But that might explain why we assume the Turing machine has no agency of its own because we know who built it.

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And, as a scientist who has devoted her life to finding the answers to questions, this bothers me.

Wait a minute......there are wummin scientists?!?!

I am happy, and not in need of anyone to console me about this life, death of my flesh, or any life to come. Speak for yourself!

I'm not quite sure I follow... Could you please clarify?

My apologies. That was an "insider" general statement.  It was not directed at you, AM! (Smile.)

Those that think too much about death can forget to live.

I would agree ender.. but being a mom, I can tell you that you have to have some sort of answer for you 5 year old to console them. 

Dear Friend Perrie: If deemed useful for those in our community should they wish to read and use after customization, I can re-publish an original Chaplaincy article I wrote for the News Vine some years back.

It is entitled, "Explaining Death to a Five Year Old".

It is based on a narrative I developed to help the young feel at peace with the loss of anyone from their life who is no longer in this level of existence.

Let me know you thoughts.

Private note will do.

You are correct.

The young look to us for comfort when they cannot understand something which upsets them.

They are in good company.

This applies to any age, in varied ways.

Peace, Abundant Blessings and Words of Comfort To One and All in Need Who Want.

Enoch.

Human beings are the only creatures we know of that can express self-reflection.  Maybe the big questions such as life after death or the ultimate fate of.... whatever are insignificant because we have nothing to compare them to. 

Let's say that the "universe" is infinite and there are billions of planets that might support life similar to that of earth. We are then quite insignificant no matter what we might think. 

But what if we are the only place that developed life that can reflect on itself?  Now that would have a lot of meaning, would it not? 

Will we ever know the answer to this?  

Not in our lifetimes. 

How can there possibly be an afterlife?

Life is unique, nothingness was and will be just fine and vanity regarding self is a waste...

Probably the closest humans come to immortality is to produce enduring art of literature.

I wonder how many people ever think about their existence as being one step in an unbroken continuum of life.

What I mean is that life is cells, and cells come from other cells (except for the first one), so every last thing that is alive today is a living continuation of that very first cell. Living cell produced living cell produced living cell produced living cell. It hasn't stopped yet, so in a way we are all somewhere around 4 billion years old.

I guess that doesn't really have anything to do with an afterlife, though.

I figure we were all okay prior to a sense of self and will be fine when it is gone...

I think a question can be of posited: Does mankind, a creature of deep reflection, truly feel it has 'tasted' the heights, depths, widths, lengths, and breath of every nuanced being we label, "life"? If mankind has not, . . .then why talk in ways to suggest such 'finality' on what life is?

Is it simply because we can look upon death and sniff rot and try to pick up bones turning to dust that some ascertain it is impossible for the dead to rise? Who has ever made clear to us what we are in flesh, we can never be in yet another 'container.' 

This body, form, is an 'earth-suit' of cells.

The clue there is we have a better understanding of how the brain functions and the reason we pull the plug when one is declared brain-dead. What would the container hold? What is left of the dead to rise if their thoughts are contained in the brain cells?

Without getting too 'involved,' I will suggest we are still in search of what the spark of life means to and desires from all life on Earth. Perhaps, many could be correct to suggest what is sought from our lives is extracted from us through life experiences and we are all ultimately discarded—spent. (With great ceremonies, traditions, and rituals of our own designs.) I do not believe that, for personal reasons.

Thinking along such lines would suggest we are not just alone, spinning and evolving, into what?

I just posted an article entitled, "Explaining Death to a Five Year Old".

It is in the Religion and Ethics section.

All are cordially invited to come and read it.

To tweak and use it if they wish.

Be sure to read my first post, and rules for participation in the discussion thread.

The Four B's must be observed.

Peace and Abundant Blessings to All Always.

This is a good topic.

It is universal in scope.

It can be handled in any number of ways.

It will need to be handled by each of us in our time in this life.

A shout to to our good friends Anonymous Millennial for posting the topic.

Welcome to the site AM. 

Enoch.