During the whole shakedown of Hollywood pigs, this is the one case that bothered me. I will not say how yet. I am curious if anyone else felt differently about this case. 

One difference I see is that Louis CK did not force any woman to do anything, their job was not dependent on whether or not they catered to his wishes .. he is an arrogant individual that desire woman to watch him .. I see him as a sexual deviant rather than a predator.. 

I see him as a sexual deviant rather than a predator.. 

Which could be a result of well-crafted entertainment media.  Why should anyone focus on the harm to the victims?  Let's all focus on the hows, whys and needs of the perpetrator.   The victim just needs to understand the mental/emotional deficiencies of the sexual deviant and/or sexual predator to get over being used, abused, harassed and mentally or physically sexually violated.

How did our society ever become so willing to defend sexual predators and so unfeeling toward their victims?  Or has it always been this way and that is the reason that most of this is never even reported because of the support for the predators and the backlash or indifference for the victims?

hollywoodreporter

The fact is, a lot of the TV of the last couple decades has been designed to make us feel sorry for monsters and sociopaths.  I have zero regrets about my choice of profession , and a lot of those shows were good. But one thing I and other critics  have had to point out an infinite number of times   is that these stories of predation, exploitation, assault and rape are usually told from the point of view of perpetrator — or maybe the (male) white knight whose motivation is saving or avenging a woman who is attacked.

The survivors of the violence? Eh, who cares about them? So few do. So few.

What a smart, cleverly arranged long con Louis C.K.'s career has been. He skillfully built a world in which he — via   Louie   or his stand-up routines — "excavated" faults and "examined" the shittiest parts of various attitudes, impulses and actions. But it was all really part of a long-term effort to get us to think, "Hey, at least he's trying. He's giving it some effort." He adopted a pose of brutal honesty so that he could seem like a good bro, a man who's working on being better than his worst moments. I bought it. For a while. I don't believe it anymore. And it's not just about what five women were brave enough to tell the   New York Times   not even a year ago.

Just this week, he failed to act as a role model for the men in our society who are grappling with the challenge of trying to be better, who are trying to rise above the sexist, racist, size-ist, homophobic and transphobic programming we were all raised with. Men — including some men with toxic tendencies — might have listened to him.

Which could be a result of well-crafted entertainment media.  Why should anyone focus on the harm to the victims?  Let's all focus on the hows, whys and needs of the perpetrator. 

The media was brutal to him as they were to the other men who actually did stuff to women. Are you telling me that women are so weak that they can't just leave the room? I am not saying that he is right, or not sick in the head, but he didn't touch these women and they could have just left. They could have even reported. They did none of this, until the women who actually were assaulted did something. 

What victims?  Sorry mocowgirl, I am failing to see where the victims are in this - a question was asked, not demanded (the women themselves say they were not forced) .. one can call it sexual harassment I suppose, yet if one stayed to watch him jack off - it was a voluntary choice made...

I have been assaulted, and received a rather severe beating for resisting - yet he did not win, and I am not a victim - I survived and later crushed him!

yet he did not win, and I am not a victim

Strength of character worthy of respect.  

They could have even reported.

How about reading about what his victims say after even daring to tell others about Louis' sexual harassment.  

As long as people support the predator and judge the victims on what they should have and should not have done, the predator and his ilk will continue to live long and prosper in the US.

thecut

After C.K. stripped naked and masturbated in front of them in his Aspen hotel room in 2002, comedians Dana Min Goodman and Julia Wolov began to tell others about the incident (“Something crazy happened to us,” Goodman told the  Times ). They said they hoped to shame C.K. and stoke outrage against him, but instead “guys were backing away from us,” and that in the days following the assault, “we could already feel the backlash.”

In an essay for  Vulture  in May, comedian Rebecca Corry said C.K. put her in a “lose-lose” situation when he approached her on the set of a TV pilot they were working on in 2005, and asked if he could masturbate in front of her. 

In the years after, she wrote, she tried to stay silent, but everywhere she went, as a comedian, she would find people defending C.K. and attacking the women who spoke out against him. When she finally came forward with her own story, she received death threats.

“Now I’m being asked if I think C.K. will make a ‘comeback,’” Corry wrote in May. “The idea that C.K. reentering the public eye would ever be considered a ‘comeback’ story is disturbing. The guy exploited his position of power to abuse women.”

She added: “Everyone deserves to do their job without fear of being forced into an impossible situation. And no one should ever be attacked or judged for standing up for themselves.”

C.K. didn’t just subject these women to sexual harassment and the personal struggles that come with that, he subjected them to threats from strangers, to alienation from their colleagues and peers, to lost professional opportunities. As far as I know, none of them have done an impromptu set at the Comedy Cellar.

I survived and later crushed him!

How did you "crush" him?

Thank you... but do not get me started...

I look at these big strong, opinionated, take control, outspoken admired women of Hollywood .. and if I was 'an' Angelia Jolie, I would not admit what a pathetically weak individual she truly turns out to be .. she knew what Weinstein was up to and remained silent, only to come out AFTER many other already had as victims?  How many young women could have been saved from the physical and emotional torment .. had just one of them [strong admired women of Hollywood with all their charity and humanitarian causes] spoken up...

Putting Soapbox back in the stall - 

sorry for falling over the edge and going off topic Perrie...

The media was brutal to him as they were to the other men who actually did stuff to women.

So Louis did not do "stuff to women"?  Interesting.  I guess those women should just shut up and go away like they were told to do by Louis' manager all along.

The media

The media I was referring to was about how media has crafted movies and TV shows to narrate from the predator's point of view and portray the predator as a sympathetic victim of his emotional and mental state that needs to be understood and saved from himself.

This has proven to be a very effective strategy in US society as evidenced by the number of people who defend sexual predators.

I took his livelihood away from him (he had to move away to find work) .. I was a well respected women working in a man's world .. I did not hide in a closet, I walked onto the job site with my blackened eyes and swollen face to confront him in front of the crew, as well as the site bosses..!  He was judged by a jury of his peers!

Putting Soapbox back in the stall - 

*pulls soapbox back out of stall....shoves Color Me Free back up onto it*

You have a valuable perspective to add.  Don't stop adding it.

sorry for falling over the edge and going off topic Perrie...

It's not off topic at all. There is a central theme to this discussion that Perrie herself is attempting to pursue surrounding the definition of "sexual predation" or even "sexual harrassment". 

Is it really sexual predation if someone was asked and gave consent, and was free to leave at any time?  Is it really sexual harassment when the ugly guy in the office asks you out a couple of times?  At what point do we look at a woman as you do and say "you were smart enough and strong enough to have made a different decision, so you bear some responsibility in this situation"?  

Matt Lauer is currently out of work and reviled by women everywhere for slightly less egregious behavior than they vehemently defend from Bill Clinton.  How is Addie Zinone a "victim" when Monica Lewinsky is not?

The question that must be answered is "where are these lines drawn".

As long as people support the predator and judge the victims on what they should have and should not have done, the predator and his ilk will continue to live long and prosper in the US.

AMEN.

I am judging both. He has mental issues and he should have to face up to them in the court of public opinion. That being said, women, if they really want to be considered equals, should be able to address a situation like this. Believe me, I know because I lived it when I was working a short stint in the disgusting field of personnel in the '80's. 

There is a central theme to this discussion that Perrie herself is attempting to pursue surrounding the definition of "sexual predation" or even "sexual harrassment". 

Exactly!

The question that must be answered is "where are these lines drawn".

That is the point of this. We all know no is no. But these women said yes, or at least didn't leave. Are they not responsible for their own actions? Otherwise, we are saying that women, by their very gender, are victims and I am not a victim. 

No worries CMF. I don't mind those little detours in a discussion.

But these women said yes, or at least didn't leave.

I do not even know who Louis CK is other than he is a sexual predator who some people think is comedic on some level.  So I am thinking about this as he is just another Joe Smoe run of the mill sexual predator off the street.

Predators choose their prey.  Do we have any way of knowing how many and how far?  Only 5 women have dared to come forward and look how they are being treated.  We are not all Joan of Arc wearing invincible armor and should not be expected to be...or should we?  Maybe our world would be safer if women would all be trained and permitted to carry guns so when we fill out police reports it won't be as the victim and then maybe we will garner all of this sympathy and understanding reserved for predators.

It is reasonable to believe that Louis chose women who will never speak of what he had done to them or ever deal with it.  This is very common among victims of predators.  Predators mostly do not prey on strong women with support networks, but there are exceptions.  I remember the rapist that Gov Huckabee pardoned out of prison because he as rehabilitated and because the victim's kin had castrated the rapist.    Huckabee was wrong and it cost at least two more women their lives.

I took his livelihood away from him

So shouldn't this also happen to Louis CK?

Is it really sexual predation if someone was asked and gave consent, and was free to leave at any time?

Depends on who is asking.  

If the asker is in a position of power over the askee, then it is wrong.

Why aren't these men pursing relationships with women who want a relationship with them?   That's right, these men are not seeking relationships.  They are seeking sexual gratification.  Sexual gratification that relies on the ability to dominate, control and perhaps even shock their victim.  This is nothing except purely predatory behavior.

Good points Jack … same as yesterday when I had to support your stand for those that are accused - my good friends estranged wife falsely accused him of being a sexual predator of his own lil (very lil) girls, she nearly destroyed him .. put it this way, he is no longer an up an comer in the Fire department!

I struggle with the Me Too movement .. albeit I agree it is time, beyond time to put the spot light on things that can happen in the work place that make both men and women feel trapped with no recourse available on their behalf .. yet waiting years to speak out makes no sense to me ..

I know how difficult it is to speak out, yet I did not feel the shame that many survivors feel, my job was not more important than my dignity, I did not need my day in court - I was pissed, and there was NO way he was going to do what he did to me and then go about his life as if nothing had happened .. had I not spoken out, then I would have been a victim and in my mind not worth fighting for ... the sooner one speaks out the better.

Women are strong, it is time for all women to recognize the strength they possess and the control over their own lives that strength provides...

We all know no is no.

Tangential topic....but.... If only that were true.  Much of male activity for much of modern history has consisted of various attempts to turn "no" into "yes".  "No" turns into "yes" much more easily if the male in question has muscles and/or money, and more easily still if he's tall, has good hair, and dresses well. 

But we're in a period now where women are re-examing this idea...which is all well and good.  What's not well and good is holding men accountable to an ever moving set of standards upon which women themselves cannot seem to agree. 

Listen to the Dean Martin Christmas favorite "Baby It's Cold Outside".  For some women, it's romantic.  But bu modern, #metoo standards, it's sexual harassment set to music.

But these women said yes, or at least didn't leave. Are they not responsible for their own actions?

I believe they are, but I also believe I may be in a minority on the subject.  Frankly, I have trouble generating a lot of sympathy for any woman whose story includes shock and distaste at sexual advances after they went to a man's hotel room.  Nobody believes they're that naive and/or stupid.

Otherwise, we are saying that women, by their very gender, are victims and I am not a victim. 

Well said.

Who did he sexually assault .. which one of these woman was forced to provide him pleasure - which one was beaten for not staying to watch him jerk off … CK's case is just not the same as a sexual predator forcing himself on a woman, intentionally trying to strip her of dignity?

Thank you … as I am one of the worst offenders of wandering down the path towards various deviations in a discussion .. 

Who did he sexually assault .

We may never know (probably won't) but we do know that most rapes are never ever reported and of the small percentage that are reported there are very few that are ever prosecuted.

Unfortunately, a very, very small percentage of rape victims ever experience any level of justice in our society.  The ones that report being raped are usually prosecuted by the rapists' societal support network.

Well said Perrie

Women are strong, it is time for all women to recognize the strength they possess and the control over their own lives that strength provides...

Glad I got the soapbox back out.  You don't disappoint.

Women are not "empowered".  They are "powerful".  And it's very important they understand the difference.

Women are not "empowered".  They are "powerful".  And it's very important they understand the difference.

Amen..

Yet does not some of that understanding come from ones upbringing - I was raised to stand on my 2 feet, taught to do things and told I did not need a man to define who I was (from both my mother and my father) my 'strength training' started at a young age ..

When I started my first job in a welding shop the guys quickly realized that I could hold my own, that my skills were genuine .. I still laugh to this day - I was walking out of the shop and past my boss speaking to another man, as I walked past the guy was saying to my boss 'are you not worried about sexual harassment charges' .. I stopped long enough to tell him that I did not think any of the guys I work with would file charges against me...

Sexual harassment is intimidation .. sexual assault is humiliation .. a predator is counting on a woman/man not feeling like they can fight back .. be it physically or emotionally .. that is the intimidation and humiliation at work ……….. I recall that a few days before I was attacked one of the guys from the crew came to me telling me that 'so and so' told him that it was time for me to be put in my place - so I had a warning - but no clue what was meant by it.

There is strength in numbers, I understand this - but the timing was right and all it took for the #metoo movement to burst onto the scene was 1 WOMAN to say I will not remain silent any longer, I do not care how 'powerful' you are, I am also powerful. so watch this! ... the flood gates opened wide!

Now women need to keep the gates open by speaking out when the violation happens... NO longer sitting back thinking who will believe me - make their voices heard demanding that attention be paid to the problem..

Just my thoughts Jack...

We may never know (probably won't) but we do know that most rapes are never ever reported and of the small percentage that are reported there are very few that are ever prosecuted.

We may never know?  

What is that suppose to mean - are you stating that CK must have raped someone, because he likes to masturbate in front of women?  CK is a jerk with a fetish.. not a predatory rapist...  

are you stating that CK must have raped someone,

No, I stated that CK may have raped someone and cited why we may never know the depths of his depravity.

Just my opinion .. but … Pure conjecture (based on may have) is what fuels the flames of conspiracy theories and 'fake news' - speculating that Louis CK 'may' have raped someone, and we 'may' never know the depth of his depravity is irresponsible and akin to false reporting .. which is why the accused needs rights as well, especially in the era of the #metoo movement .. there have been a large number of 'powerful men' brought to their knees, with some declaring their innocence and they very well may be innocent …………..! yet when someone reports something that 'may have' happened 10 years ago it is hard to determine guilt or innocence, as it may be make believe...

I am not protecting or defending sexual predators - I am trying to point out the importance of not speculating what someone may have done .. it is just as wrong as asking a woman to watch one masturbate..

speculating what someone may have done .. it is just as wrong as asking a woman to watch one masturbate..

Speculating about where someone's boundaries lay after they have admitted to crossing the boundaries that they have been accused of crossing is not even in the same galaxy as asking a subordinate to watch their boss, or man who has power over them, masturbate.

So I'll try again. Does anyone feel that Louis CK case was different than the other Hollywood pig cases? 

Does anyone feel that Louis CK case was different than the other Hollywood pig cases? 

Hollywood has been a Pig with a poke for awhile now.

When I watch the "Roasts" of today, compared to the "Roasts" of yesteryear......I just shake my head. 

Hollywood is way past wack now !

"I dream of blowing up the White House". 

Or...….

Sexism must stop, as they show up in the slinkiest "Black" dress they can find. 

I don't think all of Hollywood is messed up, or is different from yesteryear. The casting couch has been around since almost the beginning and they used to dose their actors with drugs. 

What I am trying to get to is if Louis CK asking women to watch is different than actually touching women?

What I am trying to get to is if Louis CK asking women to watch is different than actually touching women?

Is it ?

"I don't think all of Hollywood is messed up, or is different from yesteryear."

Ever watched the Dean Martin Roasts, and then watched the "New and Improved? Roasts on MTV ?

The new and improved try to find as many ways to say "Sucks Dicks" as they can. Ha......Ha.....Ha ?

There is a Hell of a lot of difference.

You feel that the roast define Hollywood. It didn't. It was presented to be wholesome, just like they couldn't use the word "pregnant" on TV shows, or show married people sharing the same bed. But the ugly side was there, don't fool yourself. 

if Louis CK asking women to watch is different than actually touching women?

Who were the women?  Co-workers?  Friends?  Acquaintances?  Does length of association have any bearing?  Is it more acceptable if the acquaintance has been for years instead of months or months instead of weeks?

In what context is it acceptable for a man to approach a woman to ask her to watch him masturbate?  

It is never appropriate for a man to masturbate in front of a woman, but that being said, he did ask, and they were free to leave. That is very different than forcefully touching women. Big girls should walk away. 

Maybe I had a unique work experience that made me feel this way, but I knew better at 25. 

he did ask, and they were free to leave.

So as long as a man, in a work environment, asks a woman to satisfy his sexual needs, she should not feel repulsed or threatened?

How is this not sexual harassment?

It is sexual harassment. But it is not what Weinstein or Cosby did. The women were not forced to stay, and it wasn't their workplace, but a hotel room. I never went into a guys hotel room if I was unsure about them. 

But it is not what Weinstein or Cosby did.

Is there any reason to defend any level of sexual predation?

But the ugly side was there, don't fool yourself. 

Better to be open about it now, and bitch about it at the same time, as they rinse and repeat ?

It is never appropriate for a man to masturbate in front of a woman,

Not long ago, there were laws on the books against sodomy, based on exactly this kind of thinking.  

It may not be something you or I would care for, but whatever consenting adults get up to is their own business.  

Is there any reason to defend any level of sexual predation?

No, but there is every reason to define it more strictly.

It may not be something you or I would care for, but whatever consenting adults get up to is their own business. 

While I agree about consenting adults, were these women consenting. That is what is at the heart of the matter. 

btw.. I am playing a bit devil's advocate here. 

While I agree about consenting adults, were these women consenting. That is what is at the heart of the matter. 

I don't know anything about this guy. Really, I don't.

Question?

Was this guy in a position of authority to affect the careers or future of these women?

While I agree about consenting adults, were these women consenting. That is what is at the heart of the matter. 

I have no idea.  I just think we need to be VERY careful about rules, and very careful about the use of the words "always" and "never".

btw.. I am playing a bit devil's advocate here. 

A role once referred to as "Defender of the Faith".    But yeah...I got that.

whatever consenting adults get up to is their own business.  

Key word "consent".

Key word "consent".

It's a VERY key word, and is central to this overall discussion.

But if a person consents, they are not a victim, even if they regret that consent later.

But if a person consents, they are not a victim, even if they regret that consent later.

A person, who is subordinate, is not in a position to give consent, but none other than a mentally ill man would have put these women in that position in the first place.  It does not matter who the people involved are.

This was not about a relationship or a mutually satisfying sexual experience.

It was about shocking and humiliating these women so a mentally ill man could achieve his sexual gratification.  

A person, who is subordinate, is not in a position to give consent,

A subordinate person,  would that be someone that was a White House intern being subordinate to the president? 

A subordinate person,  would that be someone that was a White House intern being subordinate to the president? 

Yes.  That was one completely disgusting example of how our nation supports perverts to the point of electing them to be President of the United States.  Clinton was not the first, and and not the last, unless society evolves drastically in the next 2 years, we will continue to elect sexual predators to represent our nation domestically and  on the world stage.

a White House intern

Are you referring to the Monica Lewinski that told her friends that she was going to the White House to get her "presidential knee-pads" ?

Are you referring to the Monica Lewinski

Yes.  It is amazing how maturity and perspective from a societal lens that does not embrace male power and male privilege can sway a person's viewpoints from that of a young woman who was once used by a middle-aged man seeking sexual gratification outside of his marriage with one of his employees.  Of course, Clinton had done the same while governor of Arkansas. 

usatoday

Two decades after her extramarital affair with former president Bill Clinton, Monica Lewinsky is rethinking the issue of consent. 

In an   article for   Vanity Fair , Lewinsky wrote she now realizes that her relationship with Clinton "constituted a gross abuse of power." This is a profound shift from the position she took in a June 2014 piece for the same magazine. 

"Sure my boss took advantage of me, but I will always remain firm on this point: it was a consensual relationship,"   Lewinsky wrote in 2014 . "Any 'abuse' came in the aftermath, when I was made a scapegoat in order to protect his powerful position." 

Lewinsky says she now sees that her relationship with Clinton was full of "inappropriate abuse of authority, station, and privilege." 

"Now, at 44, I’m beginning (just beginning) to consider the implications of the power differentials that were so vast between a president and a White House intern," she wrote. "I’m beginning to entertain the notion that in such a circumstance the idea of consent might well be rendered moot." 

More:   The #MeToo movement didn't begin with Harvey Weinstein. And it won't end there

Lewinsky says the fallout from her relationship with Clinton left her with post-traumatic stress disorder and that in light of her trauma, she might never have changed her thinking on the subject were it not for the #MeToo movement and society's sudden reckoning with issues of sexual misconduct. 

More:   So what is this sexual harassment 'reckoning' everyone is talking about?

Lewinsky credits the #MeToo movement, "not only because of the new lens it has provided but also because of how it has offered new avenues toward the safety that comes from solidarity." 

"I — we — owe a huge debt of gratitude to the #MeToo and Time’s Up heroines," Lewinsky wrote. "They are speaking volumes against the pernicious conspiracies of silence that have long protected powerful men when it comes to sexual assault, sexual harassment, and abuse of power."

A person, who is subordinate, is not in a position to give consent,

Of course they are.  Unless they are physically restrained, they have the ability to give or refuse consent.

If a subordinate gets on the bad side of their boss, their employment is at risk and maybe even their entire career.  Young women are usually the targets of predators because young women usually have not been subjected to being sexually targeted by men who have power over them unless they have had the misfortune to have a mentally ill father, uncle, grandfather or teacher.

Furthermore, because most girls have not been targeted by their fathers, uncles, and teachers, they possess a feeling of safety among older males because in their life experience older males are their protectors (as they should be) instead of predators.  Studies have shown that the most successful relationships revolve around no more than 3 year age differences in couples.  But then again, predators are not interested in relationships.  Predators are looking for prey to use and abuse because they are mentally ill.  If they were capable of having and sustaining lasting, mutually satisfying relationships then they would be in one.

I suspect that most companies have some kind of policy that prohibits management dating their employees without corporate knowledge and approval in order to try to avoid sexual harassment lawsuits.

The military has rules against fraternization between not only officers and enlisted, but against E-6 and above fraternizing with E-1 through E-5.  When my (ex) husband was promoted to E-6 he was reprimanded for still socializing with his best friend who was an E-4.

If a subordinate gets on the bad side of their boss, their employment is at risk and maybe even their entire career.

They still have a choice.  That situation isn't limited to women and it isn't limited to sexual issues.  You can "get on the bad side of your boss" by refusing to tolerate any kind of unethical behavior.  In those situations, you have a decision to make.

  Young women are usually the targets of predators because young women usually have not been subjected to being sexually targeted by men who have power over them unless they have had the misfortune to have a mentally ill father, uncle, grandfather or teacher.

And?  So what?  They still know right from wrong.  They still have the ability to walk away.  

Furthermore, because most girls have not been targeted by their fathers, uncles, and teachers, they possess a feeling of safety among older males because in their life experience older males are their protectors (as they should be) instead of predators. 

Women are not pathetic weak little waifs who don't have the wherewithal to know right from wrong and act on their principles.  We're not talking about 8-year olds who get lured into an unmarked van with the promise of candy.  We're talking about grown women.  This idea that they're somehow incapable of standing up for themselves just doesn't fly.

This idea that they're somehow incapable of standing up for themselves just doesn't fly.

Women are perfectly capable of standing up for themselves with men who are respectful of women.

I will repeat that predatory men are a class unto themselves and are not dealt with easily.

Predatory men are mentally ill.  They can be violent and vindictive and are best avoided when possible.  When it is not possible, then young women's careers, mental and physical health can be at risk in our male dominated society that protects the predators instead of the women.

It is the predators who are a societal problem.  Expecting a young woman to deal with mentally ill man makes as much sense as sending an unarmed 21 year old man into a cage with a grizzly bear.  There is nothing sane or humane about society allowing or expecting either situation to end well for the prey.

They still know right from wrong. 

Why doesn't the predator?  

Shouldn't the focus be on stopping the man who is doing the unacceptable behavior?

Women are not pathetic weak little waifs who don't have the wherewithal to know right from wrong and act on their principles. 

So in your world,  the barbaric, predatory, mentally ill man, who is doing wrong, is not responsible for doing wrong.

Shouldn't the focus be on stopping and educating the barbaric, predatory, mentally ill man?  Wouldn't all of society benefit?

Women are perfectly capable of standing up for themselves with men who are respectful of women.

Wha?  Why would they need to stand up for themselves with those men?  Are they also perfectly capable of repairing cars that aren't broken?  Healing patients who aren't sick?

I will repeat that predatory men are a class unto themselves and are not dealt with easily.

Nobody said it was easy.  Courage generally isn't.

Predatory men are mentally ill.  They can be violent and vindictive and are best avoided when possible.

Obviously. 

  When it is not possible, then young women's careers, mental and physical health can be at risk

That is not unique to women, and not unique to sexual situations.

in our male dominated society that protects the predators instead of the women.

If a woman makes a decision to participate....even if she's uncomfortable about it...she's not a victim.

It is the predators who are a societal problem.

One of many.

  Expecting a young woman to deal with mentally ill man makes as much sense as sending an unarmed 21 year old man into a cage with a grizzly bear. 

I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous and utterly misogynistic.  A grown woman is perfectly capable of uttering phrases like 'hell no" or "get lost" or "not if you were the last man on earth" or "you're old enough to be my Dad".  Unless she is physically restrained, she is perfectly capable of walking away.  

If women are really so completely incapable of resisting the verbal persuasions of men, then they are inferior people not entitled to equal pay.  Hell...if they're that feckless we really need to rethink this whole suffrage idea.  This is 2018, not 1818.

I have a 24 year old employed daughter. She is perfectly capable of understanding not to sleep with her boss and that such advances on his part are improper and should be reported. 

There is nothing sane or humane about society allowing or expecting either situation to end well for the prey.

We don't allow it.  If a woman loses her job for refusing sexual advances, there is hell to pay.   But once a woman decides to sleep with her boss, it's consensual sex.

Why doesn't the predator?  

He does.  He just doesn't care.

Shouldn't the focus be on stopping the man who is doing the unacceptable behavior?

How do you expect that to be accomplished if women are supposedly too weak to resist and report?

How do you expect that to be accomplished if

society puts the woman on trial when she does resist and/or report?

If women are really so completely incapable of resisting the verbal persuasions of men,

"Persuasions"?

Predators, who are in a position of power, do not rely on "persuasions".  Those type of predators may stalk, assault and even murder a woman who rejects them, but they have no power in her economic well-being.

So in your world,  the barbaric, predatory, mentally ill man, who is doing wrong, is not responsible for doing wrong.

Please do cite me on that.  I'll be fascinated to see where I said it.

I will say that they're not mentally ill.  That's a cop-out, and we don't need to be making excuses for them.  They're just assholes.

Shouldn't the focus be on stopping and educating the barbaric, predatory, mentally ill man?  Wouldn't all of society benefit?

Focus should also be on stopping and educating barbaric, predatory burglars.  All of society would benefit.  In the meantime, lock your front door.

Focus should also be on stopping and educating bank fraud embezzlers.  All of society would benefit.  In the meantime, don't give your banking information to that poor Nigerian lady whose husband was executed.

So yeah....focus should be on stopping and "educating" (like they don't know better) dirty old men trying to get in the pants of the hot young thing in their office.  In the meantime, don't screw your boss.

They're just assholes.

Men, who coerce women into having sex, are rapists.

Predators, who are in a position of power, do not rely on "persuasions".

Those type of predators may stalk, assault and even murder a woman who rejects them, but they have no power in her economic well-being.

The ones we're talking about in this discussion do.  I'm not talking about rapists, and I have made very clear on several occasions that we're specifically talking about situations where a woman is not physically restrained.  

Men, who coerce women into having sex, are rapists.

Do cite that definition.  

Do give us an example of somebody doing jail time for "talking a woman into bed".

The ones we're talking about in this discussion do.

Predators, in a position of power over their victim, are not relying on persuasion.  Predators choose their prey based on individual criteria that satisfies their own needs.  This is not about a mutual satisfying relationship.  

Whether or not the predator achieves satisfaction, the prey must be silenced or undermined if they speak out against the predator.  

It is only because women are speaking out in groups that rich, wealthy, powerful predators have been exposed to the public instead of exposing themselves to their prey.  Individually, women have been fighting a losing battle for justice and societal protection against predatory men.  We are finally having discussions about what to do about predatory men and how to protect women ... well, some of us are.

Do cite that definition.

Rape laws are evolving because women are being recognized as humans with rights instead of property of men.  

kuscholarworks.ku kuscholarworks.ku

A. Rape Laws Generally

1. History and Foundations of Current Rape Law

Rape has been a crime for thousands of years, dating back to ancient codes and Roman law.7

However, until the mid-twentieth century, the crime of rape was largely focused on protecting men’s property rights—their property being women.8

Under Roman law, a rapist was liable to the victim’s father, husband, or brother.9

Under early English common law, the rape of a virgin—more valuable property—was viewed as a more serious offense than the rape of a non-virgin.10

Aspects of the law continued to reflect this focus on protecting male interests well into the twentieth century.11

Only women could be raped, and a husband could not rape his wife.12

Resistance—often “utmost resistance”—was a required element of rape. 13

Beginning in the 1970s, American rape law began to undergo a reform in response to criticisms by feminists such as Susan Brownmiller, Susan Griffin, and Catherine MacKinnon.14 There were both substantive and procedural changes. Substantively, rape became a gender-neutral crime, the resistance requirement was removed from nearly all statutes, and marital rape became a crime.15 Procedurally, rape-shield laws were enacted and corroboration requirements were eliminated.16

Underlying these changes was an evolving understanding of the crime of rape. Rape is no longer seen as a crime against property or a simple battery.17 Rape is something more. Today, rape is widely understood as a violation of sexual autonomy.18

Every person has a right to “choose freely whether and when to be sexually intimate with another person.”19 However, given that sex is a mutual activity, sexual autonomy has inherent limits.20 Having consensual sex with another person depends on the other person also exercising control over their autonomy and choosing to have sex. In other words, sexual autonomy has both a negative dimension—freedom from unwanted sex—and a positive dimension—freedom to pursue a sexual relationship that is mutually desired.21

Rape, then, is a violation of the negative dimension of sexual autonomy.22 In addition to autonomy, Professor Corey Rayburn Yung outlines three other justifications for treating rape as a distinct crime: harm, gender, and terror.23 Rape is unique in terms of both the type and severity of harm it causes. 24 Rape is more than just a physical attack.25  

Compared to victims of other violent crimes, rape victims are significantly more likely to suffer physiologically and psychologically from the rape.26 Even today, rape victims continue to be stigmatized and treated differently than other crime victims.27

Predators, in a position of power over their victim, are not relying on persuasion.

Unless they are physically attacking someone, they are relying on persuasion.

Predators choose their prey based on individual criteria that satisfies their own needs.

It's important to note that the word "prey" indicates weakness.  "Prey" are weak.  Women are not.

  This is not about a mutual satisfying relationship. 

Neither are most one night stands or Tinder hookups.   Enormous amounts of sex happen without any "satisfying relationship" even on the radar.

Rape laws are evolving

more...

bustle

Is It Rape If You Say Yes? 5 Types Of Sexual Coercion, Explained

In recent years, there's been a lot of media discussion regarding rape culture, the boundaries of consent, and “no means no ” —   so why is no one talking about   sexual coercion ? With California's recent adoption of the nation's first   Yes Means Yes law   — which asserts that the   absence of the word "no" does not constitute sexual consent — we seem to finally be grasping the reasons why a person might not be able to say "no" to sex, even though they want to. But what about people who   say "yes" to sex under duress ? Why aren't we educating people about the times when "yes" might not actually mean "yes"?

Sexual coercion is when tactics like pressure, trickery, or emotional force   are used to get someone to agree to sex. It can be as as simple as encouraging someone to have a few too many drinks, or it can hide inside threats like "I'll leave you if you don't sleep with me." But no matter what form it takes, sexual coercion isn't just "a part of life" — it’s manipulative at best, and at worst, it’s abuse.

Sometimes, it even falls within the realm of rape; studies have documented that   victims of sexual coercion can suffer from anxiety, depression, and PTSD   at rates similar to to those who have experienced sexual violence. But because there is so little public knowledge about sexual coercion, many women who have been sexually coerced might not even be aware that what happened to them qualifies as sexual assault, and may instead blame themselves for their trauma.

Do give us an example of

a man "talking a woman into bed".

Predators, in a position of power over their victim, are not relying on persuasion.  Predators choose their prey based on individual criteria that satisfies their own needs.  This is not about a mutual satisfying relationship. 

That is exactly why I asked a rhetorical question earlier, regarding the influence the CK guy had over the women and their careers.

I don't don't know a thing about this guy or comedians for that matter. But that rhetorical question was to throw out all the BS and focus on evil intent. Based on the article he didn't commit rape, he didn't a rape, but his actions in the manipulated situations were just as evil.

Enormous amounts of sex happen without any "satisfying relationship" even on the radar.

I acknowledge that freely.  If people are both in agreement then lust is a wonderful thing.  But that is completely different than a man using any form of coercion to gain sexual satisfaction.  

but his actions in the manipulated situations were just as evil.

Yes.

Dealing with men who created the myth that there are good girls and bad girls is part of the issue.

Good girls are to marry and bad girls are to have sex with.

Good girls wait until after marriage to have sex.  If they can be "persuaded" to have sex prior to marriage, they may or may not be moved to the bad girl category even if sex happens with their intended just prior to marriage.  

I was raised in the Bible Belt with religious based rules that vindicate male mistreatment of women.  I am well acquainted with the mindset that women are male property at best and evil creatures that are Hellbent on creating lust in men in order to control them and destroy their souls.

This patriarchal mindset in the US is one of the root causes of the abuse of women in the United States.  It is the same mindset that we are supposedly fighting in the Middle East while supporting Saudi Arabia (a nation that is #1 in the mistreatment of women).

Rape laws are evolving

So talking to someone is not actually rape.  Glad we agree.

because women are being recognized as humans with rights instead of property of men.  

I'm curious if they'll ever be recognized as intelligent, powerful humans who are capable of making and taking responsibility for their own decisions.

If people are both in agreement then lust is a wonderful thing.  But that is completely different than a man using any form of coercion to gain sexual satisfaction.  

If that "coercion" is simply verbal, then both people are in agreement.

I'm curious if they'll ever be recognized as intelligent, powerful humans who are capable of making and taking responsibility for their own decisions.

If that "coercion" is simply verbal, then both people are in agreement.

If those two comments don't tell us why so many women are "mad as hell and not going to take it anymore," I don't know what would be a better example. 

If that "coercion" is simply verbal, then both people are in agreement.

No they are not.  Fuck me or you're fired, fuck me or I'll leave, fuck me or I'll divorce you and similar coercion are "verbal" threats that are not seeking agreement.   Men do not have a right to sex even with their wives. Thankfully, the US legal system is recognizing that.

I worked with a woman whose husband was demanding anal sex or he was going to find it elsewhere.  She wouldn't at the time that I worked with her.  Eventually they divorced.  I don't know who filed or why because I did not ask for or want the details.  I just happened to be shopping in the same store and we had a short conversation about a year after her divorce.  She looked better and seemed happier and was working toward a degree in nursing.

Are you referring to the Monica Lewinski that told her friends that she was going to the White House to get her "presidential knee-pads" ?

according to the following thesis, it was the wife of a high school teacher (who had seduced Monica at 18) who reported the "presidential knee-pads" claim.

I found this to be an interesting report on the media treatment of Monica according sexist standards of the 90s that are still at play today.  It even touches on the treatment of Anita Hill.  I am bookmarking it to read in snippets.  All 55 pages is too much for me to read this afternoon.

history.barnard

Dealing with men who created the myth that there are good girls and bad girls is part of the issue.

Women created that myth.

Good girls are to marry and bad girls are to have sex with.

It's not actually 1950 anymore.

This patriarchal mindset in the US is one of the root causes of the abuse of women in the United States.

The real root cause is boys not being raised properly.

No they are not.  Fuck me or you're fired, fuck me or I'll leave, fuck me or I'll divorce you and similar coercion are "verbal" threats that are not seeking agreement. 

She has a choice about whether to agree to those demands or not.   If she chooses to go along, they are in agreement.  

 Men do not have a right to sex even with their wives. Thankfully, the US legal system is recognizing that.

They have every right to leave if they're unhappy.  Most men are not interested in celibate marriages.

I worked with a woman whose husband was demanding anal sex or he was going to find it elsewhere.

She had a choice to make.

  She wouldn't at the time that I worked with her.  Eventually they divorced.

Good for her.  Sounds like she's better off.

  I don't know who filed or why because I did not ask for or want the details.  I just happened to be shopping in the same store and we had a short conversation about a year after her divorce.  She looked better and seemed happier and was working toward a degree in nursing.

She made the right choice.

society puts the woman on trial when she does resist and/or report?

Describe that specifically.

Describe that specifically.

“’Why were you there in the first place? How much did you have to drink? What were you wearing? Why didn’t you call the cops? Why didn’t you do anything right?’ Well, I did everything I believed was and is right,” she said in the statement, before saying that Her’s lawyer, Christopher Carlos, deserves “many years in hell with Lang; you two are perfect together.”

They have every right to leave if they're unhappy.  Most men are not interested in celibate marriages.

This is not a case of advocating for celibate marriages.

This about men who expect their wives to be their sex slaves and will use threats to try to control their wives.

Yes, the women should leave any relationship with men who do not respect women.  Fortunately, it is happening in record numbers for a variety of reasons.  Reasons that include access to education, better career opportunities and therefore more economic independence.   

One of the biggest threats to women's economic independence has been the predators at their workplace.  That was slowly changing until the Hollywood predator floodgates opened.  Electing Trump probably sealed the deal for the Clinton supporters in a way that might not have happened had she been elected.  

US society has changed tremendously in my 6 decades of life.  I grew up watching the preachers proclaiming that Armageddon was upon us, Oral Roberts faith healing the sick and crippled, the Vietnam war protests, the racial riots and cities burning, women burning their bras, and Virginia Slims selling cancer sticks with the slogan "We've Come A Long Way, Baby".

In the 80s, I voted for Reagan twice cause he was supposedly "moral" and his wife had an astrologer (which made perfect sense to me since I was believer in astrology).  Then I watched that trashy Oliver North take the 5th and figured he was working for that corrupt Bush family behind Regan's back.  This led me to vote for Perot a time or two since I was Arkansas and was less than impressed with wages, taxation, poverty and being 49th in the nation in education.

In 2000, I held my nose and voted for W.  Of all of the unexplainable things I have done in my life, I am still working on explaining that one to myself.

In 2008, I gained decent internet access, joined Newsvine in 2009, learned about evolution, the origins of world religions (including my own-Christianity) became an atheist and then a feminist.

I finally evolved with society.  I hold out every hope that it is possible for others, also, even though I am learning that some of us are hard-wired to need superstitious beliefs in order to feel that they had a divine purpose for existence and that they will never die.  

I seek to learn and understand.  Most of all, I seek to protect women and children from the predators who prey on them with no more thought than a grizzly bear gives to the animals it kills that have the misfortune to cross its path within killing distance.

Victims say they felt blamed.

“I felt like he didn’t have any respect for me at all,” Xiong told The Huffington Post. “He did anything and said anything he could to make me feel angry on the stand make, to make me feel frustrated on the stand.” 

“Let’s not mince words, the job of the defense lawyer when a witness’s word is the bulk of the prosecution, the defense’s job is to undermine that witness,” said Abbe L. Smith, director of the Criminal Defense and Prisoner Advocacy Clinic at Georgetown University. 

This is not a case of advocating for celibate marriages. This about men who expect their wives to be their sex slaves and will use threats to try to control their wives.

That's still not "rape".  As long as those women are not physically restrained, they choose to leave or stay.

Yes, the women should leave any relationship with men who do not respect women.  Fortunately, it is happening in record numbers for a variety of reasons. 

Agreed.  

Reasons that include access to education, better career opportunities and therefore more economic independence.    One of the biggest threats to women's economic independence has been the predators at their workplace.  That was slowly changing until the Hollywood predator floodgates opened.  Electing Trump probably sealed the deal for the Clinton supporters in a way that might not have happened had she been elected.  

Quite possibly.

I seek to learn and understand.  Most of all, I seek to protect women and children from the predators who prey on them with no more thought than a grizzly bear gives to the animals it kills that have the misfortune to cross its path within killing distance.

I seek to help get women to the point where they don't need protection.

Does anyone feel that Louis CK case was different than the other Hollywood pig cases? 

I do. Louis was not handing out movie roles in exchange for sexual favors the way Harvey Weinstein was...

Louis CK was and as far as I know still is a demented comedian. A comedian everyone knew was a creeper.

Matt Lauer and Charlie Rose used positions of power as leverage with young women who worked for them.

Louis was not fired by NBC or PBS or even The Weinstein Cos. All he must do is get back up on the stage...

If enough people are willing to plop down their dollars to see Louis nothing stops him making a comeback.

Louis doesn't have to be hired by a big reputable corporation to reach his former level of professional work.

Very good point JBB and you covered a lot of the fundamental differences. 

I would add to that the none of the women were touched and were asked if they minded and were free to go. 

It happened when he was in a position of power. Classic, textbook perp.

But at least he did not touch them. /s

No.

OK Pat, why?

The man's a pig, obviously. That you even suggest that his behavior is excusable is disturbing to me. My opinion, sorry.

Pat, 

Several times in this discussion I have said that his behavior is not excusable. I thought that I made that perfectly clear. 

The man is not a pig, but mentally ill. From Psychology Today: 

Among the weirdest peccadilloes to emerge in the recent flood of stories of sexual harassment are those situations in which a man invites or coerces a woman to watch him   masturbate . Analyzing the psychology of such a man can potentially help us understand the various forms of toxic masculinity currently filling the headlines. As a therapist, I’ve seen a few men who have done this kind of thing and most are driven by intolerable anxiety. The exhibitionistic fantasy—that’s what this is—originates in the man’s need to reassure himself that his penis, his manhood, is not bad, defective, or insignificant. A key part of the imagined scenario is that the woman is fascinated and excited by the display, which affirms the man’s positive sense of masculinity and momentarily relieves his anxiety. This dynamic is usually   unconscious .

Of course, the actual woman complaining about this behavior invariably feels controlled, degraded, or ashamed. But her experience of   humiliation does not necessarily imply that the exhibitionist’s main goal is to humiliate her. He needs to set up a situation, over and over, in which he can escape anxiety; he’s not primarily out to make women suffer. He uses women as a kind of mirror that, in his mind, reflects back admiration and excitement, not horror or disappointment; the women just feel used. 

psychologytoday

Of course, the actual woman complaining about this behavior invariably feels controlled, degraded, or ashamed. But her experience of   humiliation

is met by death threats and "get over it.  You should feel lucky. it could have been worse".

no excuses for this subhuman pig.

I agree with Perrie that the man is mentally ill.  Louis needs intense therapy instead of a stage where he receives monetary reward for peddling perversion that is linked to mental illness.

is met by death threats and "get over it.  You should feel lucky. it could have been worse".

That was from other people not him. That is a societal ill and it's (imho) says a lot about us and how little we have come. 

That was from other people not him.

Yes, his fans and brethren who support him in silencing his victims so he can continue to prey on women and entertain and mentor them on how to treat women and make money doing it.  

This kind of support for sexual predators is among the reasons that the US has made the Top 10 list on most dangerous nations for women.

Louis is the funniest comedian of his time.  He didn’t force anyone to do anything, he just acted gross.  Get out it already.  I heard Kathy Griffin got all huffy about Louis CK’s male privilege.  Shut the fuck up Kathy.  I like humor too much to be relegated to only having weak ass versions of ‘comedy’ like yours to listen to.  Long live Louis.

That is where I was going. He did ask the women to watch. They were free to go and he didn't touch them. He was the most and immediate in his apology and the most sincere. I think that the guy has some emotional baggage and needs to deal with it. 

I'm not a Louis CK fan, but I'm not a big fan of that sort of self-referential stand up in general. I prefer comedians to tell jokes, as in the old days. 

Having said that, I don't think it would be right to give a performer a "death sentence" to their career for what he did. That is for the legal system to decide, not organized or unorganized boycotts. 

Any of the sexual offenders who havent been prosecuted and convicted should be one day allowed to continue their careers, as long as they have made verbal apologies and reparations. 

Louie CK makes no bones about it, when he was addicted to drugs and struggling as a comedian he blew guys for drugs.

Bunch of fucking nonsense right there.  Thank you for reinforcing why I hate social media.

There is no denying that he had mental issues and that he needs to deal with them before issuing an apology. What he did is gross, but I don't think he is the same as Weinstein or Cosby. 

Bullshit.  I did as many drugs as Louis CK.  I have two daughters.  Everything is fine.  In many respects he is a better dad than I.  Your unsourced response just reeks of homophobia.

npr

He was the most and immediate in his apology and the most sincere.

Sincere?  Not according to one of his victims.  He did exactly what most sexual predators do - he blamed the victim for sending out the wrong signals.

nytimes

In 2015, a few months before the now-defunct   website Defamer   circulated rumors of Louis C.K.’s alleged sexual misconduct, Ms. Corry also received an email from Louis C.K., which was obtained by The Times, saying he owed her a “very very very late apology.” When he phoned her, he said he was sorry for shoving her in a bathroom. Ms. Corry replied that he had never done that, but had instead asked to masturbate in front of her. Responding in a shaky voice, he acknowledged it and said, “I used to misread people back then,” she recalled.

The call confounded her, Ms. Corry said: not only had he misremembered the incident, which made her think there were other moments of misconduct, he also implied she had done something to invite his behavior. “It is unfair he’s put me or anyone else in this position,” Ms. Corry said.

This sounds much more like a guy who is nuts. And what I meant by an immediate apology public apology instead of denying it like the other scum did. 

Look I am not saying in any way what he did was right.. just not as bad as what was going on with everyone else.  

 just not as bad as what was going on with everyone else.  

I don't believe that a sexual predator's victims really care whether they were treated as badly as Cosby, Weinstein's, Spacey's, etc. victims.  But I do feel that the victims would find it hurtful and harmful to be subjected to comments that their experiences were "just not as bad".

Also, why shouldn't a woman be treated respectfully regardless of the time and/or location?  Should women have to treat all males as sexual predators and only associate with males in public places during daylight hours while wearing the guaranteed no sexual harassment clothing and makeup?

instead of denying it like the other scum did

He did not deny it most likely because he knew he knew it would not be an effective defense because of his career had been centered on acting out and describing his perversion on stage.  So he will use other society approved defenses that have used by sexual predators.  Blaming the victim, claiming it was an isolated incident due to something bad that happened in his life, and/or allowing his supporters/fan club to defend him.

He did ask the women to watch. They were free to go and he didn't touch them.

Reminds me of my younger days in the club scene. I would ask "hey, do you want to take a shower?" Got slapped a lot..................but I also got laid a lot 

I have to agree with you John. 

But I do feel that the victims would find it hurtful and harmful to be subjected to comments that their experiences were "just not as bad".

They saw a man masturbate. They were not touched. They could have left the room and they didn't. And while this is all very sick in the head, it is not being raped or sodomized, so I am standing by "not as bad". 

Also, why shouldn't a woman be treated respectfully regardless of the time and/or location? 

Of course, women should expect that. 

Should women have to treat all males as sexual predators and only associate with males in public places during daylight hours while wearing the guaranteed no sexual harassment clothing and makeup?

Judgment is involved here. It was not a secret that this guy was odd. If I know a guy is odd, I don't put myself into a situation that can make me uncomfortable. But under normal circumstances, I agree with you. The expectation should always be that women are people and should be treated with respect. 

That is just wrong!  [on so many levels]

Ooooooh no it wasn't.................most times.......

I would ask "hey, do you want to take a shower?"

What would have happened if you had said that to a co-worker at work?  

30 years ago, a toss up. Today? Who the hell knows................probably a laugh......

I was working 30 years ago and if you asked me that, that would not have been my response. 

30 years ago, a toss up.

I worked at Walmart corporate during the 90s.  Sexually harassing a co-worker became a firing offense after a lawsuit or two.

If Louis C.K. is truly remorseful

Is sexual predation influenced by nature, nurture, society?

If nature, then should it be considered a mental illness and treated accordingly?

If nurture (or lack thereof), should it still be considered a mental illness and treated accordingly?

If society, then shouldn't we evaluate the contributing societal factors that portrays women as objects to be pursued, used and abused for male sexual gratification?

There is no level of punishment of the sexual predator that is going to heal the scars left from being sexually abused.  I do wonder if our society would benefit from classifying sexual predation as a mental illness instead as portraying it as something inevitable or even "natural" via entertain media that is largely male owned and controlled.  

Yes, we do need an effective way to deal with the Louis C.K.s in our society.  One way would be to quit protecting and portraying any type of sexual predation as comical or "romantic".  Ew.

theatlantic

Romantic comedies are supposed to be escapist—a jaunt into a better, more colorful world where journalists can afford giant New York apartments and no obstacle to love is too great to overcome.

Except that when you think about it, some of the behavior portrayed as romantic in these movies is, objectively, creepy. The   Love Actually   sign guy   was totally out of line, and honestly, Lloyd Dobler from   Say Anything   was pushing it with his   famous jukebox . Even the supposedly “pure” love of cute baby-faced Joseph Gordon Levitt as Cameron in   10 Things I Hate About You   involves teaching himself just enough French that he can pose as a tutor and hang out with his beloved. Oh, and hiring a guy to go out with her sister.

Reasonable people know that rom-coms aren’t what love is really like, just as reasonable people know that porn is not what sex is really like. But these movies still create an image of romance that leaks into the atmosphere and may subtly shape people’s perceptions and expectations of love.

One troubling way they may do that is by making stalking behaviors seem like a normal part of romance, according to   a new study   by Julia Lippman, a postdoctoral fellow in the department of communication studies at the University of Michigan.

Those are all great questions mocogirl. 

I think that sexual predation is influenced by any combination of nature, nurture and society. 

I think that sexual predation is influenced by any combination of nature, nurture and society. 

I agree.  Which is why I strive to protect the victims and seek counseling for the predators.  However, the predators have to be recognized as predators and their actions as completely unacceptable.  Women should be able to move freely in our society and not be sexually harassed by the mentally ill who do not have proper boundaries.

I totally agree. 

I really don't know who this guy is. Really. I don't follow a lot of stuff.

Other than thinking what this guy has done, is disgusting, I am always left at a loss as to how doing this stuff can possibly make sense in anybodies mind.

Seriously, In the mind, what logic tells somebody "oh, it's okay, go ahead"? How does that happen?

Seriously, In the mind, what logic tells somebody "oh, it's okay, go ahead"? How does that happen?

Got me. 

All the defense of this pervert is nauseating, just stop already.

All the defense of this pervert is nauseating, just stop already.

So you see no difference in someone who does not touch anyone, and people who actually committed rape?

And Pat, I am not defending him. I am trying to draw a difference. This is what they would do in court. I think the guy has some serious issues, but he is not a rapist. 

he is not a rapist. 

And you know this for a certainty?

That is beyond disturbing but so are the excuses on this thread!

This is why women are not safe in the US and it is mostly useless to file charges.  If we ever make it to court, we are put on trial for wearing, saying or doing the wrong thing that resulted in us being preyed upon by a sexual predator.  Even children are being accused of being so "sexy" that pedophiles can't resist them.

And so the phenomena occurs.

These discussions makes me wish that I had never had children.  The support for sexual predators to say "I'm sorry" and carry on their life as usual is barbaric (among other things).  Luckily, I only have one grandchild.  Unfortunately, it is female.  Her other grandmother never misses an opportunity to teach her "the rules" of avoiding being sexually harassed and raped.  

My daughter took a more practical approach in today's culture and enrolled my granddaughter in martial arts at the age of 4.  My teenage granddaughter is now a 1st degree black belt.  Her parents have prepaid for many more years of future training and insist that she takes this seriously.

And so the phenomena occurs.

The world is noticing what many people on this thread seem to be unaware of.

fortune

What do Syria, Somalia, Yemen, and the U.S. have in common?

Besides the   travel ban imposed by the last   on the first three, these four countries are among the 10 most dangerous in the world for women.

According to a new   survey   from the Thomson Reuters Foundation, the U.S. is the 10th most dangerous country in the world for women, and the only Western democracy in the top ten.

The report attributes the inclusion of the U.S. in the list to the rise of the #MeToo movement that has helped uncover the near-ubiquity of sexual harassment. In fact, the U.S. and Syria tied for third for the risks women face in terms of sexual violence, harassment, sexual coercion, and women’s lack of access to justice in cases of rape.

their are some awful people on this planet.

I have found the variety of personalities to be puzzling.  Courtesy of the internet, I can now read about the genetic and societal factors that influence lives.  I've taken a couple of psychology courses on Coursera and I plan to begin more when winter arrives.  

A couple things going on here. Some like Louis CK's

A couple things going on here. Some like Louis CK's politics or his comedy so they feel it necessary to minimize his vile behavior and ignore the women he hurt.

Then of course we have the fellow misogynist that blames the women. You know they could  have left or they were drunk or wearing skimpy clothes.......

And so the phenomena occurs.

or his comedy so they feel it necessary to minimize his vile behavior and ignore the women he hurt.

Oh come on BF, I don't even know what this guy's politics are and I never was a big fan of his comedy. I am not even minimizing his behavior. I had my fair share of piggish behavior so it would be the last thing I would defend. And no one blamed the women, other than for not walking out. That is true strength. I am not even saying that he should return to comedy until he gets the help he needs. But obviously, you didn't read the article I posted. I can find a dozen more like that. 

And no one blamed the women, other than

Good timing.

there was an article recently regarding his return to standup.  I guess he made a joke about a rape whistle that two women in the audience found offensive.  Perhaps those women should be asked to act like adults and leave if they are offended?  Your beliefs don't trump others beliefs.  If people find the jokes funny you don't get to silence others l.  Time to grow up women and move along instead of trying to silence people.  That's the adult thing to do.  If you wanted to be treated like an adult then act like it

joke about a rape whistle

What is funny about rape?

What is funny about rape

No answer?  

I googled.  Just today the women in the Philippines are not finding any humor when their President makes rape jokes.

What's the problem that women just don't find humor when men joke about rape?  Do men find it humorous when men if men are telling jokes about raping them?  What about making jokes about raping children?  Are there any limits to what people in our society find humorous when it involves the abuse of other people?

nytimes

By   Felipe Villamor

• Aug. 31, 2018

Calm down.  It's been an hour.  People don't have to answer on whatever time frame you demand.

whats funny about rape?

depends on the joke and the delivery... or the situation.

im not a comedian but i can imagine afew deliveries that are funny.  I'm a fan of dark humor though.  I'm sure a joke about someone who claimed rape that was false getting raped would be funny.

how about a rapist who gets raped in prison?  Sure there is some material there.

chappelles "he rapes and he saves" was kind of funny.

Quite a few rape jokes involving the female teachers with students were funny.  

It was kind of funny that lady who blamed weinstein end up being a rapist herself when she raped a kid.  Ironic funny.  Not sure if that qualifies as irony though.

point being.  If you don't find something funny in a stand up especially.  Walk the hell out.  You want to be treated like an adult then act like it.  You know what men do when there is something they don't like?  They ignore it.  

Just "locker room" banter, right ? There may be ironic observations about various circumstances of rape but it's never funny.

how about a rapist who gets raped in prison?  Sure there is some material there.

What is funny about that?

What is the function of prisons?  To rehabilitate people or to torture them?  ALL ETHICS aside, is it really safe to torture people and then ever let them out of prison to vent their anger on society?

I believe that as a society that it is vital that we protect our citizens from the mentally ill who harm others.  In order to do that, the victims must be heard and supported.  The predators must be placed in treatment until they are no longer a threat to others.  That "treatment" should never include rape anywhere at anytime.  Ew and double Ew.

Funny is subjective.  That is a core concept of comedy.

9 out of 10 people find gang rape fun.

Surprisingly many who get upset about that joke were ones who defended James gunn the director making pedophile rape jokes. 

9 out of 10 people find gang rape fun.

I am guessing that the 10th person is the one being raped.

If people find the jokes funny you don't get to silence others

Are people really that insensitive to rape victims?

You bet.

Here's just a small sample of some mainstream rape jokes that people in our society embrace.

I don't find them funny.  I guess that I just need to be criticized for not being tough enough and hear/read all the rest critical comments and allow everyone else to enjoy their life laughing at sexual assault victims.  

No one is saying you have to find the jokes funny.  There are jokes I don't find funny.  You know what I don't do though?  Ant like a totalitarian dick and try to silence people to revolve the world around me.  Ignore the media and go find something you do like.  Like an adult and not a child who needs to be sheltered.  Just a thought

Like an adult

So adults like jokes about raping other people? 

How about jokes about murder or attempted murder?  Evidently, the premise is that as long as a comedian threatens murder, it should be just as acceptable as joking about rape to society regardless of who is harmed by making reprehensible acts seem like something to laugh about.

huffingtonpost

In the interview, host DJ Envy asked Lil Duval what his reaction would be if he found out he slept with a trans woman.

“This might sound messed up and I don’t care: she dying,” Duval told the radio show’s three hosts. 

Duval also told the hosts that when it comes to transgender women, “that ain’t a girl, that’s a boy.” He told the hosts that he felt there should be repercussions for that type of “manipulation” but until then, Duval would have his own. When host Charlamagne Tha God jumped in and tried to tell the comedian he couldn’t go around killing trans women, Duval made an poor clarification.

“I didn’t say I was gonna kill transgenders,” Duval attempted to backtrack. “I said, if one did that to me, and they didn’t tell me, I’mma be so mad I’d probably kill them.”

After taking several deep breaths I just got teary thinking about all my sisters experiencing violence, beaten, raped, murdered and some   t.co

— Laverne Cox (@Lavernecox)   July 30, 2017

Host Angela Yee told him he should be “politically correct,” but Duval responded, saying that comedians shouldn’t have to be. 

How about jokes about murder or attempted murder? 

I am googling.  I am really sad about this news item from a couple of years ago.  I did not realize how very shallow, depraved might be more apt, that so many people are.

seattlepi

Ed Murray tries to keep his personal Facebook page "light", but the weight of sick jokes over a weekend murder caused the Seattle mayor to speak from the heart -- and gut -- on Thursday to his 4,998 followers.

"But there have been so many sad 'recycle' jokes about this murder on Friday, I wanted to be sure we understand this is about a real woman with real children," Murray wrote.

"I am not asking you to take down those posts, but maybe we should post about how we become desensitized by the violence and suffering in our lives."

The mayor was referring to the murder of Ingrid Lyne.  The killer of the Renton nurse cut apart her body and drove the remains to Seattle, where they were discovered Saturday in a recycling bin.

Yes.  Some adults like those jokes.  Again.. it's subjective.  What right do you have to tell people what they are allowed to find funny?

What right do you have to tell people what they are allowed to find funny?

I am very uncomfortable with people who find any humor in murder, rape and assorted crimes that destroy lives.  But, then again, it is only because that enough men in our society embrace violence against women and children that the US has made the Top 10 list in the most dangerous nations for women.

If even more men find it humorous to murder, rape, beat and abuse women, maybe, it won't be long before the US is number 1 in that category.

Then be uncomfortable.  Don't go near those venues.  Don't watch those shows.  It's pretty straight forward.  I don't like jokes about "mug patriarchy"...  I don't watch comedians who use things like that in their material.  I don't act like a fascist trying to censor everything I don't like.  

Dont like the jokes about women bein emotional stereotypes?  Probably would be a good idea not to enforce them by acting that way.  You may want to look at the latest violence figures as well.  Women are pretty much on or with men when it comes to DV nowadays.  It's also absurd to believe that the US is the top 10 most dangerous places for women.  Any place other than the big ten first world countries is far more dangerous to women.  You really expect me to believe Iran is safer for women than the US?  Lol

 Women are pretty much on or with men when it comes to DV nowadays.

Not surprising that the stats are revealing that it is mostly young women (in their 20s) fighting back in self defense against violent men who are hitting them.

abc.au

Dr Wangmann said the data failed to capture the circumstances influencing female violence.

And while research was limited in Australia, she pointed to comprehensive studies in the United States that she said had "unpacked the numbers".

"Women were either acting in self defence, or in some way to responding to their own experience of victimisation," she said.

"And that's quite different to what we see around men offending, where it tends to be used in order to … use power and control over the other party."

Women in their 20s were most likely to be perpetrators of domestic violence, and while men mainly used fists, women were more inclined to reach for a weapon.

Dr Wangmann said those weapons was usually something they found around the house in a moment of self defence.

But women were less likely to cause serious injury or be repeat offenders — reflected in the number of women jailed for domestic violence.

"What we've seen around men offending is that it tends to be a repeated pattern of offending," Dr Wangmann said

"And that tells more about the nature of domestic violence more than the incident focus that the police and the criminal justice system takes."

Moo Baulch, chief executive of advocacy group Domestic Violence NSW, said the "literature is very clear" when comparing domestic violence related assaults.

"Often those women are fighting back for the first time and that's when the police turn up," she said.

"And there may have been 10 or 20 years of really extreme violence, some of it physical, some of it non-physical. "But we know that a significant number, I would say the majority of those women, would identify as victims."

Speculative nonsense.  Sexist propaganda that wants to paint women as somehow incapable of bein violent.  "It must be because they are defending themselves!"  

Even though you leave out the rest of that story that points out women are more likely to use weapons and abuse other family members and 40% of the time they are abusing their children. 

You think they were protecting themself from their kids when they beat them? 

Not does point out the female privilege though that they are less likely to go to jail for it.  Much like other crimes where they receive less time than men. 

Louis doesn't owe the whole world an apology or some kind of penance. He apologized to his "victims." Whether they accept and forgive is their business, not ours. He has a right to try to make a living. If you don't want to patronize his shows because he makes you mad, then don't buy tickets, but whether or not he has a "right" to work in comedy is not up to some kind of vote or public tribunal.

I agree.

In this particular case, he just showed up.  

I liken this to me buying tickets to see Russel Peters and having to sit through a guest appearance by Samantha Bee or some other bitchy angry leftist.