Conservatives Claim Religious ‘Hostility’ When They Face Consequences for Refusing to Use Students’ Pronouns
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
W]e are here today because a specific worldview is being imposed upon me,” said West Point High School French teacher Peter Vlaming at a public hearing in early December. In fact, Vlaming was at the hearing that day because the West Point Public School (WPPS) District in Virginia had placed him on administrative leave in October, after he continually refused on religious grounds to use a transgender student’s pronouns. This, the district determined, violated its policy against discrimination on the basis of gender identity.
The school board unanimously voted to terminate Vlaming at the hearing. “As detailed during the course of the public hearing, Mr. Vlaming was recommended for termination due to his insubordination and repeated refusal to comply with directives made to him by multiple WPPS administrators,” said West Point Schools Superintendent Laura Abel in a statement shared with local outlet 8News.
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So, first of all, I don't know how you get an opinion on this from the Bible. The Bible just does not address transgender issues. In my opinion, if you see that in the Bible, you're reading something into it that isn't there.
Now, not specifically to defend the teacher, but clarification might change some opinions because there has been some coverage of this story:
West Point High Teacher Fired for Refusing to Call Trans Student 'He'
The teacher was not insisting on referring to the student as female either in the student's presence or in any other setting. Instead, he had decided he wouldn't use pronouns at all. He decided he was just going to use the student's name instead. e.g. "Go get [student name]" instead of "go get him/her."
This seems like something that didn't need to become a big deal or lead to a firing.
The teacher willfully ignored the school district policy of being transgender supportive. Bad things happen when you ignore a workplace policy. Things such as being fired.
Workplace policies don't usually cover things like pronouns. The point of my comment was to flesh out the details so people could decide for themselves on ethical grounds whether or not this teacher was doing something that warranted attention, and if so, firing. I'm not interested in whether or not it's a regulation. Regulations don't make right.
It does cover pronouns when the school has a policy of being transgendered supportive. This isn't about the individual teachers/employees ethics because the employees don't get to make that decision. The school board has a policy of being trans supportive and the teachers can either comply or leave.
And that's fine, but I have a hard time believing he violated it with his behavior. As you say correctly,
I very much doubt the policy declares a teacher must use pronouns instead of a person's name.
Unless he doesn't use pronouns for other students, his act of refusing to use pronouns for the trans student singles him out and was discriminatory. The teacher cannot single out a student with a different treatment because of the teacher's religious beliefs. This student isn't asking for this religious blowhard to like him. He only wants to be treated as he does the other students, an action which is supported by school administration so the teacher needs to grow up and act like an adult instead of trying to use his power to discriminate against a student.
If that is impossible then this teacher would be a better fit at Liberty University.
School policy is work-space policy, in this case. Tacos! Our 'world' is changing.
Personally, I agree with that. I wouldn't have made the choice this teacher made. On the other hand, I recognize that in his mind, he was trying to be as flexible as he felt he could and probably wasn't trying to be rude.
The other thing is I have seen a lot of teachers be way more rude to students and they go on working.
Agreed. I can't help but wonder how much of a conversation there was about this or did they just fire him right off. If he was a quality teacher, it might have been worth it to put more effort into to appealing to his better angels or something. I have seen teachers be overtly cruel for years and go on working. If only administrators could be so concerned with students' feelings in more cases.
I do not know. I can only hope the matter has been determined with good purpose. But, for our intents and purposes, it is folly to try to hold people back from freedom once they, as a group, have tasted it is good and set their minds to it! Better we remember our own 'vows' and adhere to them as best we can, by not becoming that which we dread in others! See to yourself, that you are in the faith and God will do the rest. Moreover, you will dwell in true peace with 'all men'!
Make room for the new groups appearing out of the shadows! To do anything else is likely to come across as maddening attempts to blow out the sun! Ultimately, reason can inform you to leave God's 'servants' of all kinds to God's disposition. The Church makes a 'fatal error' when it sets itself up to rule in God's stead. It will not go unchecked.
He willfully singled a trans student out for discrimination because of his religious beliefs and violated school board policy in the process. Losing his job is the least of his problems because if I was the child's mother I would seek the advice of a lawyer for a possible civil suit. He will have a very difficult time finding a teaching job in the future outside of a Christian madrassa because he is a legal liability due to his past behavior.
The fact that there are other teachers who are much worse does not in any way excuse his behavior. I know drunk drivers have killed multiple people but that doesn't mean that running a stop sign because someone is texting behind the wheel is permissible. Stop trying to make excuses for this guy because it is already quite obvious that you agree with his behavior on some level.
Naturally.
No, but it also doesn't prove that the administrators are just and actually care about students. Transgender issues are the politics of the moment (which can be good in some ways), so we see quick action on that for appearance's sake and so they don't get sued by people like you. I am skeptical that they took this action because they care so much about the kids.
I urge you again to stop with this kind of talk.
Learn about nuance. I can disagree with someone and still give them the benefit of the doubt.
What are the other likely reasons that the school board would have acted in the manner that they did?
Nuance is on thing, but there is a long pattern of behavior of your previous opinions toward transgendered treatment and equal rights.
That the teacher was a **** in every day life and a PITA to the school administration, who knew that none of the other teachers would back this particular teacher?
Nuance is the thing. I can feel it's right and proper to treat someone a certain way, but that doesn't necessarily mean I think government or their employer should force them to behave that way. You talk a lot about a strict wall between church and state but you have no reservations about government enforcing the specific morality you believe in and in every situation.
If there is, it sure isn't the pattern you're implying. On the other hand you seem to have a pattern of trying to "prove" that you're better than other people here by attacking them personally instead of discussing the topic. Anyone who doesn't agree with you 100% is some kind of hateful bigot.
That is certainly a possibility but I would have expected that they would have terminated him after multiple yearly negative performance reviews than during a high profile situation such as this. It is possible that even the teachers union got tired of defending him and threw him to the wolves after this action. Certainly, the school board sought the advice of legal counsel and warned him in writing because this case could cost them million if they didn't follow the rules.
That sounds pretty likely actually.
Have you ever been on a school board? Attended monthly meetings? Everything goes through multiple lawyers for review and risk assessments.
Some, if not all of it is insane, and I have seen pedophiles and rapists walk away after beong forced to resign at the end of the semester/year with no recommendation letters.
Because of the fear of lawsuits and negative publicity.
Few people have the "right stuff" to do the right thing.
I was hauled in front of the school board my senior year in high school because of a piece of artwork that I created. A few members of the staff wanted me to destroy it or face a weeks suspension because of the graphic violence it depicted. A former art teacher went to bat for me and threatened the board with the ACLU. The board backed down and I won an award for the drunk driving poster.
Quite probably. But nobody gets fired over pronouns.
Chances are pretty good they were looking for a reason to get rid of this guy.
Ding! *touches finger to nose*.
I saw this happen on multiple occasions when I taught school.
The teacher made the classroom a hostile environment by singling out the transgendered student with discriminatory behavior, unless you can prove that the teacher never used gendered pronouns with his other students.
School administrators do not go on crusades. They don't get righteous indignation. They don't fire people to make political statements. It's a luxury they can't afford.
Nobody gets fired over pronouns. Nobody gets fired over pissing off a student. Kids whine all the time about how they're being treated unfairly or a teacher "doesn't like me because I'm.....(insert the condition du jour here)". Nobody gets fired over something that trivial They simply change the kid's schedule and go down the road. That's especially true in a very tight labor market where your teaching staff all leaving for better-paying jobs in the private sector.
You get fired when you've been a repeated pain in the ass. You get fired when you've pulled either a large number of medium sized stunts or one outrageous whopper.
So this teacher..... a French teacher....so not something critical and difficult to replace like a math, science, special ed, or ESL teacher...can't bring himself to call a girl "he"...based on his religion. After he got fired, he has lawyered up and gone public on the grounds his religious liberty has been violated.
Color me skeptical.
What do you suppose the odds are that he has done one or more of the following:
It's also not impossible that he wants to retire and hasn't saved up enough money. Surely there is or soon will be a gofundme account for this guy. If a Colorado baker can get $100k, why not a teacher? Makes a nice retirement bonus.
Can we assume that there were no transgender people in ancient times?
That would be a very erroneous assumption. The medical treatment to support transition and reassignment surgery is relatively new but people who expressed non-congruent gender have existed as long as recorded society.
I wouldn't, no. Don't assume that a thing wasn't happening in society just because it isn't mentioned in the Bible. Not every thing that was happening was important enough to warrant a mention.
And the things that are mentioned appear to have a specific context to them. There is debate about this, but the long lists of rules appear to be more about religious Hebrew holiness and uncleanness - i.e. they are ritual rules, like Jews wearing tiny hats or Catholics eating fish on Friday - than about regular people living ordinary lives, having a relationship with God, etc. I think that in modern times, many people make way too much of them. They weren't intended to apply to all people in all situations.
Does the existence of trans people make it difficult for you to have a meaningful relationship with your chosen god? If your god claims to have created people how they are and you are commanded to love them unconditionally as you would yourself then what is the possible problem?
No. Why would it?
Where did I say I had a problem? Do you even know what you're talking about or who you're talking to? Why are you trying to pick a fight with me?
I didn't know so I asked the question. I operate on logic but the opposition to transgendered care and equal secular rights is almost never based on logic and scientific fact.
I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone. You seem to claim to want to support trans' rights but there is almost always a conservative caveat in your arguments.
Nah, you really don't. I guess it makes you feel better about yourself to keep claiming that, but you don't. I haven't said anything here that logically justifies coming at me with questions about me having a problem with someone, but that's what you're doing.
So you let your bias against me direct your comments instead of the facts of my actual words. There's nothing logical about that at all. You love to condemn others for being emotional instead of logical. I recommend a mirror.
So some people would rather see the school shut down just so they can be bigots and not show any compassion for others, not like them. Not very Christian like.
Sounds to me like the ones claiming persecution are only wanting to be able to persecute.
I guess god didn't know what he was doing when he created hermaphrodites.
Religion these days is getting close to the Jim Jones/David Koresh/Manson style followers.
I wonder how the school bully might react if the other biggest kid in school, the one he didn't want to risk trying to pick on because he wasn't sure he could take him and all bullies are really chicken shits at heart, started calling the bully a "girl" and constantly referred to the bully with all female pronouns. By doing so he would of course have become the bully, and many wouldn't fault the kid being called a girl from fighting back. And most parents probably wouldn't have punished their son too badly for punching a kid who insisted on calling him a girl all day long. Being called by a preferred pronoun isn't a right, but it is a courtesy, and if Christians refuse to be courteous, that's their choice, it just shows what callous bullies they truly are and nothing like the Christ they claim to emulate.
so many of the religious can't provide public services from the public businesses they voluntarily opened because it would violate their "sincerely held religious beliefs" and now they can't even work for another company because following another company's policies violates their "sincerely held religious beliefs". Do they just want to collect welfare and not work at all anymore ? why hasn't their god provided for them so they can avoid getting into situations that violate their "sincerely held religious beliefs" ? are we going to turn houses of worship into big corporations now since that may be the only place a religious person could work that wouldn't violate their "sincerely held religious beliefs" ?
If you aren't willing to suffer the consequences of your "sincerely held beliefs", then you need to just shut up. Because obviously your beliefs don't extend any further into your life than your auto whiner.
In their minds, it is others who are to suffer for their sincerely held religious beliefs. This isn't about their religious beliefs because Jesus didn't teach his followers to be bigots. It is about conservative Christians fear of losing control over others and their right to live as they choose fit when the conservatives disapprove.
The left’s Orwellian assault on language continues. Next week, it will be a crime to call dogs, dogs.
Exactly. Newspeak is here, thanks to liberals.
It that because some people are not permitted to use the words ni**er, kike, coon, sambo, wetbacks, cunts, krauts, chinks, gooks, camel jockeys, and dagos to refer to others? When will this PC nonsense end?
s/.
Fallacy again. Please demonstrate how "he" or "she" are widely accepted as slurs.
Silly...
No.
Intentionally misgendering someone or refusing to use gendered pronouns for one student, unlike the rest of the class is singling them out at a time when they are already feeling alienated because of their transgendered condition. Life is hard enough for them, so why do you feel the need to add to their stress?
You don't intentionally refer to a woman as he or to a man as she unless you seek to insult them.
Why do some people feel the need to be a jerk to a transgendered person? Does it give them a feeling of power or superiority?
My best friend of 57 years has a granddaughter named Donna, she's now 14 and has announced she wants to become a guy and insist she be called Donald. I've known the kid since she was born, I've changed her diapers when she was a baby, I know damn well she isn't a boy. Until she legally changes her name to Donald I'll call her Donna and I refuse to use him or he when referring to her or I'll refer to her using her name.... Donna.
How does this 'best friend' feel about your obstinance?
He agrees with me, he won't call her Donald either and when speaking about her he says " My granddaughter" not grandson.
And that's your right, as it will be young Donald's right to call you both bigoted pieces of trash not worth his time. Or maybe he'll just start using whatever pronoun he wants when he sees you two, "Hey there ladies! You two girls going to get up off your lazy asses today and work off those big-o-tittie's? You're going to need a larger bra size soon if you don't grandma..."
No one can force you to be courteous, no one can force you to show compassion, no one can force you to put aside your indoctrinated prejudices and just see people for who they are and love them anyway, but you can choose to do those things if you want to, and so could your friend, if he ever wants to have a close relationship with his grandson.
If and when SHE has HER name legally changed to Donald or whatever name SHE chooses I call HER by that name, until then SHE'S Donna
If someone's name is Margaret but everyone calls her by a nickname such as Meg or Peg, is that also offensive to you? Do you ask to see someone's birth certificates when you meet?
Or is it about sex gender that is a problem for you?
Do you know of any Margarets using male nicknames such as Fred?
Is Donald a nickname for Donna?
I am trying to understand your outrage about trans people but I cannot imagine why you would be offended because of a name someone asks to be used? Someone could ask write "Fluffy on their ID tag at a business conference and I would not care as long as they were polite. It just isn't important enough to be to get outraged. Do you view yourself as the gender police and you won't allow gender variant people to exist in your vicinity?
Why do you care what someone asks to be called? Is it offensive to you that transgendered people exist, or do you feel threatened by their existence? Do you feel equally threatened by metrosexual gay men or butch lesbians? Did your blood pressure rise when you watched SNL's skit about Pat?
I had my second Christmas dinner with family and friends, and a transitioning one.
Not sure what all the hub bub is really.
Though i was concerned, as another at the table is born again, and wasn;t sure if i was gonna see a WWF Transgender Holy Roller Smackdown tag team match, as they were both accompanied by their significant others, but, just another Christmas miracle, obviously brought to US by Trump, as everyone was well behaved and we had a most gracious evening
I hope that you and your family had a merry and peaceful Christmas and wish you a happy 2019.
'Miracles' can abound in the strangest ways. After all , Dick Cheney (no true friend of homosexuals) has a homosexual daughter to accept.
i did , thank u, and hope yours was swell as well
poetic justice that doesn't rhyme with reason
Yeah, like Dick and Liz Cheney (the daughter), the Republican Party, and conservatives seem to want it both ways. Instead of being wholly against LGBTQ propositions like they come out against gun control and abortion of any kind, these people selectively plead their homosexual children cases for public understanding, and accept into the republican ideological fold - Log Cabin Republicans who express a,
Mission
Log Cabin Republicans are LGB T Republicans and straight allies who support equality under the law for all, free markets, individual liberty, limited government, and a strong national defense.
and, these homosexual republicans offered praise for Justice Kennedy at his 2018 retirement:
Date: June 27, 2018
If saying "Happy Holidays" is supposedly an "attack" on Christians or a "war" on Christmas, wouldn't calling someone by something other than their preferred pronoun be a more egregious "attack" or "war" on transgender Americans?
I call people whatever they want to be called, but I do wonder how much this really comes up. A teacher couldn't call on a person using a pronoun unless it was on the order of "hey you," which is not sexual in nature. They might use a pronoun if they were talking about them in the third person because they weren't there, but if they were there, I would think a teacher would just use the student's name. Even if the teacher occasionally said something like "hand this to him" it's hard to imagine that using a student's name or some other descriptor like "the person behind you" would even be noticed. I can't help but wonder if there was more going on between student and teacher than the simple omission of pronoun usage.
I think you are right.
What is next? Some lawsuit because a teacher or someone who has known someone a long time as being a male or female slips up and uses the "wrong" pronoun?
It seems that nothing but 100% total submission and obedience is accepted these days.
This article makes me wonder.......
Is there no room for compromise? Is there no time allowed to make adjustments to all these new and confusing norms? Was this man a good teacher?
There has to be some middle ground that allows both sides some dignity.
Why should the teacher be able to single out a student at his job who is under the care of a Dr for unequal treatment because of his religious beliefs, despite school policy to the contrary? Should a teacher who is a member of the Klan be able to refer to black and Hispanic students as ni**ers and 'spics because of his conservative religious beliefs?
Why is it so difficult to treat others as you would expect to be treated? Are these kids a threat to you so you feel the need to make sure that everyone knows that they are not equal to you? Put yourself in their place and ask yourself how you would want the teacher to treat you?
I think we are talking about two different things. I don't think I said anything about being disrespectful when addressing someone or using inappropriate language to describe others.
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion from my post. It certainly wasn't my intent.
I don't know why we have to demand that others accept our lifestyles. As long as we are treating each other with respect and with courtesy why do we also have to embrace how they want to live their lives?
If that isn't what you meant then I owe you an apology. I'm very sorry.
This student and other trans people aren't asking for acceptance or endorsement of their being trans', but being transgendered in no more of a lifestyle than having cancer is a lifestyle. This is a medical situation and it deserves to be treated with the very same respect and dignity. They were born this way and they want to survive and be happy, just like the rest of us.
Proverbs 14,
Matthew 25:40
I know no one that encourages or accepts cancer as being normal and something to praise as the transgendered frequently are. In fact we are going to great length to do all we can to eradicate cancer from the world. By making the comparison as you did, it would appear as though you would agree that it is a disease, a mental disorder, that needs to be treated and eradicated just as cancer is treated to it hopeful destruction.
Who is encouraging anything? These people are born transgendered and they merely want to live a life as normal as possible, but there are some people who like to harass people because of their lack of compassion or understanding of the situation, both of which are usually based on conservative religious belief. Why would anyone choose to be transgendered? Do you think that some people also choose to be intersexxed?
Being transgendered is also something that can be effectively treated, just as cancer is treated. Do you feel threatened because transgendered people exist because their existence questions your curent understanding of what human gender is?
If you know so much about the situation when why don't you tell everyone about your treatment program that has a superior prognosis and quality of life than the current medical-psychological approach.
Hello PJ, I have known people in life who are just too damn obstinate for their own good. This teacher, I have read he is considered a good teacher in the eyes of some of the student population, has one glaring flaw. And, it is a bright one:
The teacher told his superiors (who have the power to hire and fire) that he could not oblige their order, on multiple occasions, not just the last one which caused his expulsion from the district-
to follow a standing directive.
Please hear him out speaking in his own words, especially his last words, about 'adopting a new ideology about who we are as humans.' Below:
Subsequently, with these demonstrations and expressions, this teacher is stating his strongly held conservative principles mean more to him; that he feels justified to "make a wave" and stand his ground over this student's and (possibly other trans students to come) life decisions.
When I, you, we, look at it this way, we should consider if he is doing this child even more harm through a weak exposure of his argument (in court).
My son's best friend that I have known for 15 years has recently started transitioning. I have to admit I still have trouble with the pronoun issue. I do not do it on purpose, but unless I am actively thinking about it I will still say "he/him" instead of "she/her". I do not do this because I disapprove of her transitioning, but because I have know her for 15 years as a male. Does this make me a horrible person? I don't think so, just human and error prone.
It's one thing to do it by willful choice, but it is another to make a mistake because of the past.
there are no legal consequences for freedom of speech or any lack thereof.
and regardless the number of pronouns.... there are also only two sexes.
but, can the guy be fired by a leftwing institution?
if he signed away his rights under some progressives morality clause? the answer is a definite maybe...
Trans people are not a separate gender. They are transitioning from one gender to the other. They are not creating a 3rd or 4th gender.
Do you grab people by the crotch or ask to see their birth certificates when you meet them instead of shaking hands so as to determine their physical gender instead of how they are dressed and their mannerisms? Transgendered people have a brain that is incongruent with the physical/biological gender of their body. When they say that their were born in the wrong body for their personality that is exactly true. Our brains do have a gender and their brain-body mix is incongruent. Why do you care? Do you feel that their existence is a threat to your worldview so you must be the gender police to feel safe in society? I just don't understand the outrage from some people because the concept of "live and let live" should be easy to embrace.
About 5% of the population are intersexxed (what used to be referred to as hermaphroditic), so how do you refer to them?
How do you refer to someone who is androgynous if you demand people are absolutely binary in their physical gender appearance?
not even close.
a fraction of one percent at best
Are intersexxed people a problem for you?
Sorry Ma'am, but the only way to "transition" from one gender to another is through ELECTIVE surgery.
That is the last major step of the transgendered transition process. The first step is psychological testing and counseling. The second is hormones and then living full time in their identified gender. The final step is surgery.
a lot rarer than 5% of our population (your original assertion = busted)
Are intersexxed people a problem for you?
nope... and I have no problem with math either
cheers
You are the one who has a problem with trans people.
Don't you know by now that if you aren't a cheerleader for the LBGQT community, then you are automatically assumed to be a bigot?
no worries...
liberals, progressives and anarchists only make me laugh