National park visitors cut down protected Joshua trees during Trump's government shutdown
"We've never seen this level of out-of-bounds camping. Every day-use area was occupied every evening. Joshua trees were actually cut down in order to make new roads."
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Photos Show what it looked like before Trump shut down the government-- and what happened as a result of his unnecessary actions
A Joshua tree that was severed amid a rash of vandalism at Joshua Tree National Park in California during
Trump's government shutdown. ( Credit Gina Ferazzi/Los AngelesTimes, via Getty Images)
There are two kinds of people in this world: Those who take it upon themselves to go to understaffed national parks to keep them clean during the government shutdown, and then those who set up illegal campsites and cut down Joshua trees in the national park of the same name.
"There are about a dozen instances of extensive vehicle traffic off roads and in some cases into wilderness. We had destruction of government property with the cutting of chains and locks for people to access campgrounds," park Superintendent David Smith told National Parks Traveler.
"We've never seen this level of out-of-bounds camping. Every day-use area was occupied every evening. Joshua trees were actually cut down in order to make new roads."
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Trump's government shut-down is probably even more sucessful than he imagined!
There are two kinds of people in this world: Those who take it upon themselves to go to understaffed national parks to keep them clean during the government shutdown, and then those who set up illegal campsites and cut down Joshua trees in the national park of the same name.
And then there are the worst of all-- those politicians who are the worst of all-- those deliberately shut down the government causing all sorts of bad things to happen!
Sounds like a great strategy for making america great.
Yeah, I don't know about all that. There's nothing about what is going on with the budget that should compel anyone to drive way out to the desert to destroy some tree.
I don't know what it might mean, but the tree above and the one on the CNN site look more broken than cut. Also if those two pics above are supposed to be before and after, they're not - the background hills are different.
I think you're right-- the people that would want to do that sort of thing weren't that way bwecause ofthe budget.
But here's the thing-- the people that felt that way weren't able to do it in the past because of park Rangers andother s patrolling the parks. Now that their furloughed because of Trump's shut-down, the "nasties" can run wild.
(Imagine if all the police in an area were sudden;y not present because of a gov't shut-down. Crime would skyrocket. Not because the shut-down made them criminals-- they always had those urges but weren't always sofree to act them out when the cops were around....
And then there is the matter of the TSA-- and airport security . . .
I'm not so sure. I've spent quite a bit a time in the deserts and mountains of Southern and Eastern California. Even under normal circumstances, you can go a long time (i.e. days) without seeing a park ranger or any other authority. That kind of solitude is one of the reasons people go out there. We don't even know for sure when exactly it was that these trees were destroyed. It could have happened a month ago.
And yet, how many poachers are caught each year?
Not sure what you're getting at, but I don't know.
Poachers go out under the assumption that "Even under normal circumstances, you can go a long time (i.e. days) without seeing a park ranger or any other authority.", yet hundreds are caught every year. This existence of the park rangers is a crime deterrent, that is no longer true since they currently do not exist.
If hundreds are caught every year, it sort of makes one wonder how effective they are as a deterrent. Anyway, there's not a lot to poach at Joshua Tree.
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I did say I didn't understand what you're trying to say. Maybe you could clarify your meaning instead of making comments like that.
I agree yet we both know some people are just assholes. I don't doubt trash and destruction.
The only reason he should get blame is because he chose not to close parks. During Obama's term, during a shutdown, he closes the parks. He took a lot of heat for it.
trump chose to keep them open without support.
I think trump has trouble seeing all of the details of what his actions may have. Over and over !
PS: Did we ever get his instantaneous immigration Zero release policy under control and funded ?
LOL Details are important. always have been always will be.
Not so much it seems to the man in charge at the moment though. Sad !
I expect to see much more incompetence and lack of detailed planning and oversight.
Good Luck America.
It wouldn't matter if he could see them. He wouldn't care.
True, that's WHY he doesn't see them.
The trees in the before and after pictures are not the same tree. This is blow-down not a saw.
that's what I thought
More people, more problems, more laws, more government to oversee those laws.
Take away the government, we have chaos. No surprise here.
"There are two kinds of people in this world:"
"We've never seen this level of out-of-bounds camping. Every day-use area was occupied every evening. Joshua trees were actually cut down in order to make new roads."
PS: The experts and border patrol want fencing not a damn wall they cant see thru, if Trump wants a monument called the wall. Let his ass pay for it. We'll take a fence where its reasonable and other defences where its not plus get rid of the more who overstay visas and we'll cut down on the illegals here as much or more than a damn wall no one can see thru to protect it and our homeland.
Though a great wall would certainly be a monument to a great megalomaniac. So maybe he will fund it if we refuse. Who knows.
I haven't seen Trump insist otherwise, especially since the prototypes were made. He even tweeted an image of a see-thru fence. I see no reason to think he has a problem with that concept.
Many who dont really care what the man says seem to feel the same.
He still calls for a wall, he still wants a wall. IMO: What he really would love is a Great Wall of America as a damn monument to himself. If it can be seen from space all he better !
OK IF HE wants to fund it , I 'll agree to it. I pay for what I want, I have a problem paying for what billionaires want. . The experts say a fence, That I agree with. (always have where reasonable)
Yeah Keeping up with what this man says would take a change in how he operates. One day its this the next that. Backtracking and or double down but always fluid. Look past the rhetoric for a change and look at the man behind the mask and his motives.
He wants to be the best president we've ever had, why ? Not for us, for himself. The best at something is all this man ever wanted and the recognition that goes with it,. Driven to a fault, ours now.
PS: I "keep up" just fine,and I also look a little deeper at peoples motives and methods. Both for this man, IMO Suck.
PSS: If he now wants a fence, perhaps he should stop saying he wants a wall.
Perhaps people should stop pretending there is some kind of important difference. Way back in March of 2018, Trump inspected several prototypes and some of them were fence-like, i.e. you could see through them.
There was no talk from Trump at the time like, "Oh this won't do, I can't have something you could see through." In fact, you can see through these "walls/fences/whatevers" better than you can see through a lot of the existing "fencing" that we have in place now.
So, there is no justification for trying to distract us from the important issues with talk of what it's called. We just need to get down to building the thing where it's needed and with designs that will be most effective given where they are.
Why ?
If I did the same on here, I 'd be called out for not using the words that mean what I say. Why the hell would I be accepting of a leader who doesn't say WTF he really means ? I'm not.
I stand by my opinion, Trump would love to and probably envisioned a Great Wall effect when he started this obsession with his wall.
As usual trump's "solutions" are always gradious and unrealistic, they always need to be scaled back to realty, His Wall is no exception.
We have been doing this for many years.
We already have fencing in many places where we knew it would make a difference, we have less people coming here crossing the border than in the past and trump is using this as a pawn in his advancement of HIS ideas. Reality says different. No surprise here.
Because for one thing, there is no material difference between the two words. Americans use the words loosely every day. A fence does not have to be see-through. Here are examples of structures commonly referred to as fences that you can't see through. The first two are actually on our border already. Fences or walls? File under: Things that don't matter.
Other structures you can't see through that are also commonly called "fence":
Yes, even this is called "fence" by its manufacturer :
Furthermore, Trump is on record (way back in March) as saying he prefers a see-through wall.
Trump prefers 'see-through' wall, views prototypes in California
That was ten months ago , so people insisting that he wants a solid wall you can't see through are dishonest or uninformed.
While I will agree that recently trump has watched calling it a flat out wall. A concrete wall seemingly his his last morphing stage so far, I still am of the opinion when this "quest" of his began he envisioned a big beautiful Wall that would last decades and may even be seen from space. Besides the benefit of helping secure the people it would be a very visible lasting "monument" to his presidency.
I always have believed from what this man has said HE wants to be the best, not for us but because HE needs to be.
That In itself is scary to me because I may not agree with his idea of what IS best and / or what he may do to get there, how much it will actually cost me, or who will or maybe hurt along the way.
It sure doesn't help that he seems to be in "Negotiating mode" 24/7 and says whatever he thinks will get him whatever he wants.
I much prefer facts and realities from the people in charge of the country, Negotiation has its place, just not 24/7 by the man at the top. WE the people want and need facts 24/7 not alternative ones to get one man's way.
Wall or fence we've been working on it for years. Holding the government hostage to get that funding does and will have consequences. Some consequences for some, many more for some others.
In reality , we will never stop everyone that wants to come here illegally, and the worse they want to come here the harder they will try, the most depreate and worse will find ways to beat the system, they always do ...whether illegals or citizens.
Good idea, we should submit this to the president for his consideration:
Oh I think that's probably true. He loves to build stuff and then point at it. I'm not sure that's such a bad thing, considering the things he builds are actually useful (office buildings, apartments, golf courses). If it was just a statue or a pyramid or something, that would be bad, but I have no problem with him being proud of a wall that helps to secure the border.
Oh, well done!
Building useful things of course is normally a good thing, the problem can be though when things are overdone.
They find this out from time to time. They built huge earth moving equipment that is too big to be realistic, I saw a show not long ago about that, they built supersonic international jet airplanes that are to over the top that they had so much trouble they had to abandon them.
A fence protecting the border where reasonable is no new idea. trump had to escalate that into the idea of a great wall.
Overdone, once again grandiose and unrealistic now we see others forcing a scaling back to reality.
Time after time its the same with trump...overkill ..I'm not sure that's a good thing.
I don't think he has ever proposed anything that could fairly be called "overkill" with respect to the border. It's no secret that the border fences and walls we already have are not very formidable and don't cover as much ground as they could. Even Democrats pointed this out when the now-existing wall was legislated into existence. All Trump has proposed is that we finish the job. I don't see that as radical at all.
So, they existing walls/fences that are now on the border, including those put up during Obama years, are lasting monuments to the Presidents that had them put up?
Maybe you should tell them that.
You tell me ? Then if You think the other presidents built lasting monuments let them know I'm sure they would disagree though. I seriously believe trump's wall (at least in his beginning vision ) looked more like the bottom picture which of course is still a monumental wall, not just a fence.
The thing about president trump that stands out to me and always has is even though he's pretty good about seeing the problems, he has a knack of his "solutions" always being grandiose, over the top and therefor unrealistic. They always need to be scaled back to reality. His great Wall is no exception, even the experts protecting the border did not want a wall they want and believe more fencing and manpower and technology is the solution.
Trump has finally backed off, and accepted his wall now is a fence. Now he wants it all and now. Also grandiose......... trump = grandiose, reality isn't.
.
Monumental barrier or border barrier, you decide cause we're paying for one or the other !
You are talking like Dems want to secure our borders and are OK with a barrier. Even though the vast majority of asylum claims are clearly without merit (and half of those released in order to pursue their applications never bother to follow through), the Left, both in and out of government, has encouraged their filing, and the prolongation of cases. Having incentivized the flow of Central American asylum seekers, the Democrats then opposed all the steps needed to prevent asylum from being used as a strategy for illegal immigration — such as amending the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act, overturning the Flores Settlement, raising the bar for a “credible fear” claim (the first hurdle in the asylum process), and funding more detention beds. They have done a 180 from their past stance and are refusing anything for a barrier and and added funds. They have supported sactuary cities and rallied against deportation of violent criminals.
If you will an end, you must will the means to that end. The Democrats have demonstrated that there are no means to achieve the goal of controlled immigration that they are willing to support — not border control to keep unauthorized people from barging in, and not deportation of those who manage to get past the notional borders. For a pedant, that may not qualify as “open borders,” in the sense that national frontiers would be completely unmonitored, merely jurisdictional markers showing who picks up the garbage on which side of the line. But it’s good enough for government work.
Both parties get benefits from the illegals neither party has done all they could to secure the border. trump once again is "bullying" to get what he wants, many are sick of this. I t doesn't surprise me that the opposing side is becoming unrealistic as well.
President trump may be good at seeing problems (who isn't? ) but trumps "solutions" are always grandiose, over the top and therefore unrealistic in this form. his solutions always need scaled back to reality, his immigration solutions are no exception, when trump is ready to reasonably scale back, others are happy to work with him to get things done.
This will be the case here as well.
I look at these pictures and others on different sites and what I see is a couple of trees that have broken off and fallen. One of the pictures shows a dead tree and where it was broken off, it was obvious it had been sitting there for quite some time. This shutdown has only been going for a couple of weeks. I'm sure many of these trees have laid where they fell because of age, being blown by wind, etc, and not by vandalism.
I read your post and looked again at the pictures here a little closer. I agree it has been Broken. By what I cant tell If there is tire tracks going away from it like it was puled down or if it naturally fell down.
I have little doubt unsupervised government lands are abused though. That's why they are usually secured.. Duu
We can secure the border If we actually listen to and provided what the border patrol needs, actually trumps on the right track its the funding that keeps it from happening, (although once again I disagree with the man's methods)
And yes some people will abuse any and all the land they could without laws regulating it and then overseeing those regulations.
I think the point is that most of those that have been broken are dead and look as if they had been that way for a long time. Trump had nothing to do with that.
I only looked at the picture here. Like I said to me it looks broken, how it got broken I do not know. I Also do not doubt that people are abusing the land and environment in the parks if there is no oversight at this time.
Perhaps some one in power should have foreseen this and shut down the parks to preserve them till oversight was re-established.
Details but important ones. Overlooked till there is a problem once again.
Now who is in charge ?.. O never mind.........
After reading these comments I checked-- that picture was in several news sources, they attributed it to the LA Times. Here's the caption the LA Times used:
A Joshua tree that was severed amid a rash of vandalism at Joshua Tree National Park in California during the partial government shutdown. Credit Gina Ferazzi/Los AngelesTimes, via Getty Images
If I have the time I would be curious to check that article there later-- to see if anyone accuses them of posting a misleading caption. (And if so, what their reps0onse is.
They also published this picture:
Here's the caption for that one:
Vandals cut down this Joshua tree in Joshua Tree National Park/National Park Service
Here's the caption for that one:
Vandals cut down this Joshua tree in Joshua Tree National Park/National Park Service
From the accompanying article
Last week park staff closed its campgrounds to overnight use because of sanitation problems, but many visitors ignored that closure. With just eight law enforcement rangers working during the partial government shutdown it was impossible to cover all areas of the park, which is about the size of Delaware.
"There are about a dozen instances of extensive vehicle traffic off roads and in some cases into wilderness," Smith replied when asked about the damage in the park. "We have two new roads that were created inside the park. We had destruction of government property with the cutting of chains and locks for people to access campgrounds. We’ve never seen this level of out-of-bounds camping. Every day use area was occupied every evening.
"Joshua trees were actually cut down in order to make new roads.”
Since the National Park Service was told to keep as many units of the National Park System open as possible during the partial government shutdown, but only with essential personnel, many have struggled with skeleton contingents of law enforcement rangers. With no maintenance crews to collect trash or maintain restrooms, and no budget to pay for outside help, many parks have been blighted by litter and human waste. There have been reports of illegal off-road travel, metal detecting on battlefields in the park system, and damage to resources.
So is the LA Times printing false information? Is the national Park Service lying?
Well, I suppose its possible...!
At least the video on the seeded article shows some of the hooliganism, unfortunately the pictures shown with the article at the top hereon this site appear to me to be natural damage to a tree , which happens in high winds, the break point is too high off the ground ( appears to be over 6 ft ) to be a person cutting it down, I use to love finding such when I went harvesting firewood , it meant I didn't have to risk felling a tree, why do that when there is some already on the ground?
How does the photo in comment 5.3 "appear" to you?
???
Sorry for the late reply, I don't come round often or on a regular basis anymore .
that one looks like human caused damage to me .