Are Evangelical Christians Discriminated Against? The Dangers of Tribal Christianity
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Sigh. I always appreciate being reminded that evangelical Christians believe that they are the most persecuted majority in history, constituted by people who can’t tell the difference between disagreement and discrimination. What evangelical Christians actually are is a prime example of how faith can turn into defensive tribalism.
This is something that one of my favorite Christian apologists, Marilynne Robinson, is acutely attuned to. The recently published Balm in Gilead is a collection of essays presented at a 2018 theology conference on Robinson’s work at Calvin College. Robinson’s own contribution to the colloquium, “The Protestant Conscience,” pulls no punches. Sounding at times like a prophet from the Jewish scriptures pointing an accusing finger, Robinson notes that
It is characteristic of Christians in many times and places to decide that the grace of God is very narrowly channeled—through their own beliefs and practices, usually. This can mean for them a qualitative difference between themselves and all those others outside the precinct of their sect or denomination or their alliances. It can mean that those others will be seen as a threat, simply because they exist.
Under such conditions, faith can quickly turn into defensiveness and fear:
It has been true of Christian churches again and again that their faith takes the form of a belief that they uniquely can claim to know the will of God and to afford the means of salvation. It is at this point that faith takes on the worst qualities of fear.
Last week was the final week of spring semester classes on my campus; I’ll particularly miss one of my classes that focused on the work of three important women: Simone Weil, Iris Murdoch, and–you guessed it–Marilynne Robinson. We ended the semester with Robinson’s essay “Awakening” from The Givenness of Things. In this essay, Robinson reflects on a contemporary phenomenon that runs rampant through our current public and political discourse—a professed “Christianity” that looks and sounds like anything but Christianity.
No doubt as a consequence of a recent vogue for feeling culturally embattled, the word “Christian” now is seen less as identifying an ethic, and more as identifying a demographic. On one hand I do not wish to overstate the degree to which these two uses of the word “Christian” are mutually exclusive, and on the other hand I think it would be a very difficult thing to overstate how deeply incompatible they can be.
For many people, in other words, “Christianity” has become a tribal label, a marker of “us” vs. “them,” the very sort of tribalism that currently infects and threatens to permanently damage our political and social structures. Robinson notes that when the hallmarks of being a Christian are reduced to “are you in or out?” very un-Christian consequences are inevitable.
The simple, central, urgent pressure to step over the line that separates the saved from the unsaved, and after this the right, even the obligation, to turn and judge that great sinful world the redeemed have left behind—this is what I see as the essential nature of the emerging Christianity. Those who have crossed this line can be outrageously forgiving of one another and themselves, and very cruel in their denunciations of anyone else.
How is it, I have been wondering for some time now, that professed Christians can support candidates and policies that are, by any stretch of the imagination, anything but embodiments of traditional Christian values? How is it, for instance, that evangelical leaders like Franklin Graham, Jr. and Jerry Falwell, Jr. are joined at the hip to Donald Trump apparently until death they do part?
If Marilynne Robinson is right, it is because contemporary Christianity often is not a way of life or a commitment to the principles of a historic and beautiful religion—it is rather a way to facilitate what are often the worst tendencies in human nature and behavior.
People of good faith get caught up in these things in all times and all places. In the excitement of the moment who really knows he or she might not also shout, “Give us Barabbas!”
All of this sounds rather harsh and judgmental—also not congruent with Christian values. So be it. I grow weary of hearing the name of my faith used in the service of un-Christian and inhumane policies and actions, in much the same way that sincere and serious Muslims must tire of hearing their ancient religion’s name used as a placeholder and justification for terrorism and murder. The truth of the matter is that Christianity as a lived faith runs contrary to much of our deepest, natural human wiring. The first will be last; to him who asks give; turn the other cheek; judge not. Tribal Christianity, on the other hand, appeals to the worst in our nature. As Robinson points out,
It is worse than ordinary tribalism because it assumes a more than virtuous us on one side, and on the other a them who are very doubtful indeed, who are, in fact, a threat to all we hold dear . . . If the claims to Christian identity we hear now are rooted in an instinctive tribalism, they are entirely inappropriate, certainly uninformed, because in its nature the religion they claim has no boundaries, no shibboleths, no genealogies or hereditary claimants.
As Robinson writes, fear and the desire for identity and a place to belong can cause people of good will and intentions to choose and accept things that are in truth the very opposite of what they claim to believe in, even with the real thing right in front of them. But fear need not rule the day.
We should take very seriously what the dreadful past can tell us about our blindnesses and predilections. The haunting fact is that we are morally free. If everyone around us is calling for Barabbas, it is only probable—but never necessary—that some of us join in.
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Agree. Being as I do not belong to any organized religion, and practice the religion of my Cherokee ancestors, I see things perhaps a bit differently than those who are Christians or other religious beliefs.
I truly dislike the way so many today seem to hold anyone who does not believe as they do with such total disdain and intolerance. There is only one Supreme Being, and how others worship Him is their own business, and right.
Those who feel it their right to judge other's beliefs and how they worship and condemn them for it, are not at all true Christians in my book. They tend to loudly talk the talk, but, fail to even come close to walking the walk.
Not everyone believes in a Supreme Being, and that is their right as well. No one here on earth has the right to say who will and who won't go to Heaven, or who will or won't go to Hell. That is the sole right of the Creator. And those who do feel they are the ones who have the right to judge them are not true Christians, or they would not usurp that right that is the sole right of the one they profess to worship.
To me, those who feel it is their right to sit in judgement of others and their religious beliefs, are among the biggest sinners, and that sin is greater than what they accuse others of just because of how they choose to worship their God.
JMOO
Are you not judging them when you make the claim they are not true Christians in your book? I see a double standard there. You don’t like them judging others yet you are doing the same to them.
This isn't rocket science:
- anyone who loves their neighbor is a follower of Christ, whether they know it or not,
- a follower of Christ will be eternally with God, whether they know it or not.
Love your neighbor. What anyone else does or says or thinks is of no importance.
Not rocket science.
Nope. They lay their own path before others themselves. No one needs me to lay it for them. But, for those who choose to disparage those who do not believe as they do seem to get a pass by those who agree with them.
True Christians are those who go by the teachings of God, not make up their own in the guise of being a Christian. There is a difference.
Aren't you judging me by your own standards?
My tribalism revolves around personal friends who watch my back. None of us are superstitious. Most of my friends have worked as "agents" in one agency or another. I used to specialize in far right wing hate and science denier groups.
Used to specialize in environmental science but have switched over to investigating science deniers and the far right wing fossil fuel billionaires who fund them.
Once was an investigator in a few lawsuits where the Kochs skated with just a slap on their wrists. Years of work for me and then came the death threats which caused me to have to go underground.
Pretty sure that the only way to win against the Kochs and ALEC is with high powered sniper rifles and lots of ammo.
Seems the rule of law doesn't apply to the fossil fuel industry or their shills. Why should it apply to me?
I agree with everything you say here. It just has nothing to do with the seed...
I think Marilynn has it right all the way down the line, sadly.
I've met very few real, genuine Christens who truly are wonderful, kind people but I've met lots and lots of people who are "christens" because they tell you they are so they can preform non-christen acts in the name of religion.
You'll never find God in any church.
My parents, grandparents and siblings, all staunch raised up hard core Christians.
Funny how it didn't catch for me.
Even before my teen days, all religions just felt evil. Never fell for the lies.
So happy to have always been rational my whole life.
So sorry for those who have never been able to break free from worshiping mythology, dogma and superstition.
Fundamentalists of all stripes are a bane to humanity holding all of us back...
Would that include Muslims?
Without a doubt.
Have Muslims ever been given a pass in the US because of their religious beliefs?
Did I stutter?
Devout religious belief is a problem in the 21st century, but fundamentalism is the most virulent strain of it.
Evangelicals have never been discriminated in the US because they always have had the very same religious and secular rights as everyone else. Their current problem is that they believe that unless they can trample the rights of others via their religious beliefs, that they are being denied their religious rights. They are not accustomed to being treated as equals instead of the majority and that to them feels like discrimination.
They are still trying to deal with this fact of life in the USA.
Not for everyone. Lots of folks have no problem with religion or its followers.
Maybe they enjoy religious beliefs being pushed on them and have it argued to be the basis of secular laws but there are many of us who have very different ideas.
Maybe.
May just be that they don't feel threatened by religion and don't go all Chicken Little over it.
That's because they're sheeple. Go along to get along and to hell with their rights
If you are already a Christian of some sect then you are not opposed to the Christian beliefs of others. It is a very different situation when you are not a believer of any religion and others are constantly pushing it on you or trying to legislate laws based on their beliefs.
You cannot have a logical conversation with a conservative religious person because their beliefs are not based on logic but on emotions and beliefs.
I wish that I could teach people about Plato's cave allegory but most people are not emotionally capable of understating how the mind reacts to see facts when you formerly based your life on unexamined beliefs.
No one has forced you to join any religion. You have every right to worship as you wish or not at all if you wish.
many devout people of all faiths have nothing to do with politics and laws, so to paint all devout people as one thing is intellectually lazy.
The 1st Amendment's strict separation of church and state requires that religious belief and the state are kept separate by a legal wall so as to protect both the equal religious and secular rights of others, especially those who are not in the religious majority from being trampled. I do not have to obey biblical law because of the religious beliefs of others and it cannot be enforced by the state.
The recent abortion restrictions are based on the religious beliefs that life begins at conception.
The opposition to LGBT equality is also based on a conservative religious belief.
So we agree--no one has forced you to have religion or participate in it in any way. Good to see we agree on THAT fact.
So you honestly believe that no one opposes abortion or the LGBTQ community based on ANYTHING else besides religious beliefs. Personally, I would never assume for millions of people what they base their decisions on.
Are you claiming that no atheists or agnostics are opposed to abortion?
Being required to obey secular laws with a religious basis is just as much of a religious violation as being forced to attend church. Why is the government closed on Christmas, which is a religious holiday?
Are they pro-choice or anti-choice atheist/agnostic conservatives who seek to use the state to further their beliefs.
I am adamantly pro-choice but I'm not sure if I would have an abortion except in the case of rape. I do believe that every woman has the innate right to make that choice for herself instead of having it forced on her by the government or a religious belief that is different from her own,.
Why not close? Very few people would choose to conduct business on that day.
And the federal employees unions might, just MIGHT, have a little pushback if you take that holiday away from them. If it makes you feel better, we could call it the winter solstice holiday so as not to offend your sensibilities.
It was a simple enough question that you don't need any further inormation to answer it, but way to avoid the question.
That is just great for you. I am a conservative Christian male, and I don't oppose abortion. I do think it is an incredibly stupid choice of birth control in today's world, with BC and contraceptives readily and cheaply available to all. But believe me when I tell you that I would prefer people too lazy or too stupid to effectively use BC and contraceptives to get an abortion so the taxpaying public isn't saddled with yet more of their stupidity and shortsightedness.
I feel it is incredibly close-minded to think that no one ever objects to abortion except on religious grounds.
They could allow people to work voluntarily with a skeleton staff for those of us who do not celebrate Xmas. Those people would get double time plus 2 extra personal or vacation days.
I'd work on Xmas just so get w away from religious people and be well paid for it. I always volunteered to work on religious holidays in college for the same reason. We earned double time, had our choice for the next day off and I had a reason not to attend the celebration.
If it was closed to celebrate the winter solstice then it would be closed on my birthday. That is the European pagan holiday of Yule.
Why pay extra or give any extra perks? Senseless to do so if you have eliminated the holiday.
Good for you. I suppose we could just call it the December Day Off so as to not be remotely associated with any religion, no matter how tenuous the link is, to make you feel better.
I am not eliminating any holiday. What private business does it up to them. Cops, medical staff, fire, and EMS work on the holidays as does USPS (half days)and street crews. Why can't some government offices be open with a skeleton crew for 4-6 hours?
My mom was an RN and she almost always worked either nights or day shift. My father was a city engineer and he occasionally would be on-call if a program came up and had to go in to solve it
I am merely obeying the separation of church and state unless you also want to close the government down on the 8 days of Hanukkah and the last day of Ramadan? If they choose to work on Christmas then they must be adequately compensated.
Oh, sorry I wasn't precise enough for you. Working on what most consider a holiday is eliminating a paid holiday for govt. workers, which the union would object to.
To satisfy all, we can make a December Day Off and then no one can bitch about it.
And no need to pay extra for anyone that way.
What sort of double-time, plus 2 extra vacation days if you voluntarily choose to work on Xmas don't you understand?
Much of Europe closes for 2-3 weeks in late July and early August.
I'm willing to pay them very well for time outside of a normal 40-hour schedule.
Why should someone get paid extra if they choose to work?
And why double time if it is no longer a holiday?
What??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
That has nothing to do with America and whether Christmas should be a paid holiday for govt, workers or not.
Then YOU pay it. I see no need for extra pay if someone chooses to work.
Are Evangelical Christians Discriminated Against?
Not by anyone that I know. What they may view as discrimination is merely push back by those that do not care to listen to their constant attempts to involve others in their world view.
Funny thing is I know many Jewish, Catholic and mainstream Protestant folks, never once have any ever brought up their religious views or injected them into a discussion or debate. The few Evangelicals I know, not so much (more like all the time).
My opinion.
It really annoys me when they talk in tongues and play with snakes.
Speaking in tongues is just bizarre. It's some type of group hysteria.
I think so, too. I think a lot of "religious fervor" is the same thing, particularly among Christians. Christ preached simplicity...
And love, and tolerance. Most of the evangelicals I've encountered seem to follow Paul rather than Jesus. And they love a good show rather than simple prayer and reflection, which is why the televangelists make such a killing. I'm always embarrassed if I have to go to a holy roller service - embarrassed for the people behaving so strangely. And I always want to burst out laughing.
It's not even Biblical
That is the way the Catholic mass felt to me. I've been to two fundamentalist services and it felt like the cross between a psychology demonstration and a circus.
I will never step into another Assembly of God or Pentecostal church ever again. Those people make feel embarrassed for them
I accepted the invitation of a college classmate to attend her AoG church. My former in-laws are missionaries in the middle east and we were expected to attend the church where he was preaching and raising money. As a Catholic, I was accustomed to long services and passing the collection plate a few times but this was insane. It went on for two and a half hours and the plate was passed 4 times. The sanctuary doors were locked so you could not leave unless it was a medical emergency.
OMG!!!! That's illegal imprisonment, isn't it? You can't lock somebody in a building!
It is assumed that you came into the building voluntarily and you were aware of the rules. I had never seen bouncers at the door of a church, so that was a first.
My dad was an usher at the church we attended by nobody was forced to stay until after they're vacuumed all of the money from you.
I had a similar experience when I went to an AoG church with a Friend as a young girl. I found it both frightening and yet funny. I wanted to leave not long after the second plate was passed and people were laying on the floor writhing and all but foaming at the mouth while speaking jibberish, but, as you said, the doors were locked, so I had no choice but to wait until it was all over with. It was like watching a nightmare in a fully conscience state. I never went to any such church again.
Wow. I'm used to Catholic services, but the AoG sounds hilarious yet extremely creepy. At least with the more mainstream churches, it's mostly just awkward when you're supposed to be saying "peace be with you" to everyone and shaking their hands ... and trying to figure out when to sit and when to kneel and when to stand. But no writhing around on the floor, thank goodness.
Watch the little old ladies in the Catholic church because they know what to do and when to do it. Warm up before going to mass so you don't pull anything doing deep knee bends.
So you don't approve of their method of religion. So you are in favor of religious discrimination
NO, they are not. If you read the articles and some of the comments on NT, they are not only discriminated against but persecuted as well.
When they are asked the question how are they being discriminated against or persecuted all you get is a copy and paste that has no factual bearing in the U.S.
Those who think they are being discriminated against in the US should go to the Middle East or China
Does discrimination is the Middle East or China mean that discrimination doesn't happen here?
The point is that Christians are not discriminated against in this country - those who feel they are, should go to a country where Christians actually ARE persecuted so they will understand what persecution actually is and stop lying and whining all the damn time.
squirrel
Half of Americans Say Evangelicals are Discriminated Against. That's what 50 pct of US adults perceive, not just what Evangelical Christians perceive.
Here is the actual Pew research: Sharp Rise in the Share of Americans Saying Jews Face Discrimination
The Pew research is about public perception of overall discrimination. It's interesting that Evangelical Christians are included among the groups perceived as experiencing discrimination. The increase in public perception of discrimination against Evangelical Christians between 2016 and 2019 should be of concern.
The seeded article twists both the Christianity Today article and the Pew research into a discriminatory christianophobe rant. Not all Christians are Evangelicals as the christianophobic diatribe attempts to portray. Pay attention to the fact that the anti-christian rhetoric is also using atheistic tribalism to justify discrimination.
Up to "35 percent of the population is evangelical, depending on definition". So really it's only about 15% of other Americans, likely those who associate with evangelicals and have to listen to their incessant whine about being victims under attack, that see evangelicals as being "discriminated against".
"Evangelical Christians are included among the groups perceived as experiencing discrimination"
Yes, they often perceive themselves experiencing discrimination, but perception can be very misleading. If they were actually the victims of regular discrimination we would see regular examples all over the news. Where are the hate messages equivalent to anti-Semites spray painting swastikas on a Jewish families drive way or temple? Where are the Christians who tried to order a wedding cake for their big Christian wedding but were told "We don't serve your kind here" by the baker? Where have Christians gone to the courthouse to get their marriage license but been told "Sorry, We don't issue marriage licenses to evangelicals"?
"When You’re Accustomed to Privilege, Equality Feels Like Oppression".
From your Wikipedia link: "Anywhere from 6 percent to 35 percent of the population is evangelical, depending on definition." That broad range classified as evangelical is explained by the NPR source: Are You An Evangelical? Are You Sure?
The provided Wikipedia link also leads to a Wikipedia description of evangelicalism : "In Christianity, evangelism is the commitment to or act of publicly preaching (ministry) of the Gospel with the intention of spreading the message and teachings of Jesus Christ. "
So, the real number of Evangelical Christians in the United States is closer to 6 pct than 35 pct of the population. Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are examples of Evangelical Christians.
IMO the label Evangelical has become a pejorative used to incite discrimination against Christians. The E-word is being used in the same manner as the N-word.
I usually don't picture JW's and Mormons as 'evangelicals" though I'll admit, they do fit the Wiki definition, and if narrowly defined it likely would be closer to the 6%. However, if we're talking about people who self identify as an evangelical then it's likely closer to the 35% and those are likely the same ones imagining they're being persecuted.
If it was just the JW's and Mormons then I'd agree, many of the Protestant and Catholic Christians, along with some others I'm sure, often disrespect and discriminate against them and slam their doors in their faces (though if you're knocking on someone's door to share your own brand of faith seemingly assuming the resident doesn't have any faith or isn't of the right faith, then you're asking for that door to be slammed in your face). But I don't really think that's who the supposed 50% who claim evangelicals are being discriminated against are envisioning.
As the NPR article explains, people who identify as born-again Christians (Protestants) are lumped in with Evangelical Christians. That will obviously skew the numbers in an unrealistic manner.
Maybe not. If the Pew data represents a broader spectrum of Christian religion, then the data suggests growing public perception of discrimination against Christians. Keep in mind that any group experiencing discrimination are the ones who define discrimination. Just as the black population defines racial discrimination against blacks, so too do Christians define religious discrimination against Christians.
Atheists declaring that there isn't religious discrimination against Christians isn't any different than whites declaring there isn't racial discrimination against blacks.
Totally untrue. None of these fundamentalists who screech about being persecuted have been able to provide any examples of the persecution. And remember, many (if not most) atheists were formally Christian.
We have all seen numerous instances of racial discrimination against blacks
Then please show the evidence of such. Please show the numbers, the actual data showing Christians are being discriminated against. If you can't, then the two are nothing alike.
" There’s overwhelming evidence that the criminal-justice system is racist. Here’s the proof"
“Blacks are almost twice as likely to be pulled over as whites — even though whites drive more on average,” “blacks are more likely to be searched following a stop,” and “just by getting in a car, a black driver has about twice the odds of being pulled over, and about four times the odds of being searched.” They found that blacks were more likely to be searched despite the fact they’re less likely to be found with contraband as a result of those searches."
So where is the evidence of Christian discrimination? Where is the data showing they are targeted by the justice system or by businesses or government agencies? Because if you can't show the evidence then basically you're saying that people saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" is the same as " stop and frisk incidents in Boston between 2007 and 2010 that did not result in a citation or arrest found that 63 percent of such stops were of black people . Blacks made up 24 percent of the city’s population . Incredibly, 97.5 percent of these encounters resulted in no arrest or seizure of contraband". Do Christians really feel like they're being improperly "stopped and frisked" every time someone says "Happy Holidays"?
What are three examples of the religious discrimination that American Christians are experiencing?
1.)
2.)
3.)
1.) Gay's are allowed to get 'married' even though American Christians have trademarked marriage!
How dare they!
2.) Many Americans don't listen to Christians anymore about anything and church attendance is down!
Shock!
3.) Happy Holidays? Need I say more?!?
Well, wouldn't any self absorbed narcissist reasonably be bitterly offended when others don't specifically give a shout out to their preferred holiday during its season? /s
It seems that they have also trademarked bigotry, hypocrisy, philandering, and divorce.
Rational thought isn't completely dead.
When will they decide to boycott Hallmark and American Greetings because they condone the use of "Happy Holidays"? I buy 3 kinds of Xmas/holiday cards so as to not offend the various people I send them to happen to be related to. It is 4 kinds of cards if you count my Jewish friend and her Hanukkah card.
And it's on the rise which some religious conservatives see as the real threat to their power structure. With more and more rational persons expressing facts and truth instead of selling religious opinion and fact-less assumption, someone just might catch on to their age old scam...
My, my, my. Look at all the microaggression. Since I am not Evangelical Christian, it would be inappropriate for me to 'explain' why the group feels they are experiencing discrimination.
But I can recognize that the seeded article distorts the article it references and the Pew research data. I can also recognize that Pew research data shows all US adults are perceiving increasing discrimination against Evangelical Christians.
I'm not aware of micro-aggressions. Is it rude of me to ask religious conservatives to prove their claim of discrimination?
What probable religious discrimination do you see?
What are three examples of the religious discrimination that American Christians are experiencing?
1.)
2.)
3.)
And fine examples they are.
The silence is deafening.
How have they been discriminated against in the US? You do not have the right not to be criticized because of your religious beliefs. That would be a blatant violation of the free speech rights of others. Their religious beliefs do not supersede the secular or religious rights of anyone else.
'The increase in public perception of discrimination against Evangelical Christians between 2016 and 2019 should be of concern.'
I'm not concerned at all about these 'faux' christians.
What the fuck is atheistic tribalism? You made that up didn't you?
Why, yes I did. But then the so-called Christian tribalism is also made up.
We had a relatively recent seed here on NT illustrating the point - Opining it will be the liberal Christians that will criminalize the more extreme Evangelical ideas. If that isn't exactly what this article is about I don't know what is. You don't have to call it tribalism, but the term certainly fits.
Like most of the nonsense you spew here - made up. I knew it. Thanks for acknowledging that.
Catholicism is a more intolerant and coercive form of Christianity than most Protestant denominations. Catholicism is migrating into the United States across our southern border. Islam is an even more intolerant and coercive religion (mixed with political ideology) that is being brought into the United States by migrants.
Liberal Protestant Christianity is under attack by more intolerant religious beliefs and under attack by militant non-believers. Liberal Christians are being displaced by more intolerant religious and political beliefs.
The fundies/dominion theorists are what are threatening the rest of Christianity .. Catholics aren't the anti-science ones trying to dumb down America and put Christian sharia law into place.
More examples of Christian Tribalism?
I'd don't know if they are MORE intolerant and coercive. Perhaps. I do know that I've heard from the Evangelicals that Catholics aren't "true" Christians because they consider prayer to the Madonna and the Saints to be idolatry.
The number of militant non-believers is so small it's insignificant.
Given their pervasiveness in our communities with clinics, hospitals, schools and adoption centers, their views on contraception, abortion, same sex marriage and adoption is certainly makes me disagree with your statement.
Good points, but they do accept evolution and don't take the bible literally, so IMO they aren't as batshit as some of the fundie types. The Christian Dominion theorists (we have one or two in here) are definitely not Catholic, they seem to be fundamentalists. And they're definitely biblical literalists, a sure recipe for willful ignorance.
The biggest problem with Catholics are their Paulist tendencies.
During Mass there will always be a reading from one of the gospels but the other reading is always...always....something from Paul
Yes, but look at the fundies - all their screeching about sex, and their hangups with what other people do in bed, comes from Paul and not Jesus. Most of the Christian sects seem to have been usurped by Paul, not just the Catholics.
I don't disagree here. Willful ignorance indeed!
I've noticed that. The fundies like Paul a hell of lot more than they like Jesus
I've said this many times and I will say it many more.
Christian conservatives would claim to be persecuted if they were ever required to live by the teachings of the man who they claim to be the son of god and their personal savior. Jesus only matters to them on Christmas and Easter.
Not nearly enough.