A wealthy televangelist explains his fleet of private jets: ‘It’s a biblical thing’

  
Via:  gordy327  •  4 months ago  •  88 comments

A wealthy televangelist explains his fleet of private jets: ‘It’s a biblical thing’
There's a sucker born every minute.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


In the waning days of 2015, renowned televangelist Kenneth Copeland laid out exactly why he needs a luxury private jet to do his job: you can’t “talk to God” while riding commercial. Criticized at the time for his use of extravagant planes, Copeland argued travel for his work would be difficult, nay, impossible without them. The Texas-based preacher invoked his mentor, prosperity gospel preacher Oral Roberts, who Copeland said faced unsolicited requests for prayer when he flew on public airliners, “agitating his spirit.”

“You can’t manage that today, in this dope-filled world, get in a long tube with a bunch of demons,” Copeland told fellow televangelist Jesse Duplantis, who’s faced similar backlash for asking his followers to bankroll a $54 million jet. “And it’s deadly.” Copeland’s defense, viewed by millions and widely mocked at the time, did little to help his case. Many figured the “demons” he spoke of were the same people he was asking for donations. The preacher was asked to clarify his remarks last month by “Inside Edition” reporter Lisa Guerrero, and the exchange has recently gone viral, reigniting conversations about televangelists and the tax-exempt status of churches.

Captured on video confronting Copeland as he got into a car, Guerrero pressed him repeatedly on his 2015 comments, at one point asking: “Do you really believe that humans are demons?”  “No I do not, and don’t you ever say I did,” Copeland responded, visibly perturbed. He added, “It’s a biblical thing, it’s a spiritual thing, it doesn’t have anything to do with people. People? I love people. Jesus loves people. But people get pushed in alcohol. Do you think that’s a good place for a preacher to be and prepare to preach?”  The questioning centered around Copeland’s Gulfstream V jet, which he announced he’d purchased from Tyler Perry in Jan. 2018. Declining to state how much he spent on the aircraft, which is one of three in his possession, Copeland said Perry made the plane “so cheap for me I couldn’t help but buy it.” He again asserted the plane was necessary for his work, which has sent him to nearly every continent and allowed him to spread his message to thousands of people.

“If I flew commercial, I’d have to stop 65 percent of what I’m doing, that’s the main reason,” he said.
Copeland said he was a “very wealthy man” and acknowledged using the private jets to travel to his vacation homes. Guerrero asked how he would respond to those who say preachers shouldn’t live so luxuriously.  “They’re wrong,” he replied “It’s a misunderstanding of the bible that … if you go into the old covenant, do you think the Jewish people believe you should be broke?”
Guerrero follows up: “Are you saying that Jewish people appreciate money more?”
“They believe in wealth,” Copeland said.
“Some people would find that offensive,” Guerrero responds.
“Wait a minute now, I’m not talking about some people,” Copeland explains, before mentioning the Abrahamic Blessing. “I’m talking about the bible.”  In his various responses, Copeland draws passages from the books of Ephesians and Galatians. He again cites Oral Roberts, who Copeland says “took the same heat for believing God would prosper you.”  Like many televangelists, Copeland preaches the “prosperity gospel,” which stems from the belief that faith, often in the form of donations to their preachers and ministries, will garner riches down the line. HBO’s John Oliver spoke at length on televangelism, or as he put it, “churches who exploit people’s faith for monetary gain,” in a 2015 episode of “Last Week Tonight.”

The host illustrated an unmistakable pattern of these television preachers purchasing — or asking for donations to buy — extravagant, high-end jets.  Among the examples were televangelist Creflo Dollar, who was ridiculed in 2015 for asking his followers to raise $65 million for a Gulfstream G650. As The Post’s Abby Ohleiser wrote at the time, Dollar said he “needs one of the most luxurious private jets today in order to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”  During the segment, Oliver also played a clip of Mike Murdock, a televangelist who once bragged to his congregation about buying two Cessna Citation jets; in cash, no less.
“And since there’s so much jealousy in this room tonight that I can feel over this, a few weeks later I brought myself another one worth three times what that one was.” Murdock said. He paused before appealing to the crowd: “Act happy over my blessing, folks.”

Then there’s the aforementioned Jesse Duplantis, who asked his congregation for $54 million to buy a Falcon 7X jet last year. The Post’s Cleve Wootson reported it would have been the fourth plane added to Duplantis’s fleet — all paid for by his loyal congregation. These preachers claim the jets are essential for their jobs, and Copeland is no different.
Texas-based Kenneth Copeland Ministries could not be reached for comment Monday. A blog post on their website titled “Glory to God! It’s Ours! The Gulfstream V is in our hands!” shows the preacher standing next to his sleek new plane in a bomber jacket. He thanked donors but wrote there was more work to be done: the jet required $2.5 million in upgrades as well as a new hangar, runway renovations and “special GV maintenance equipment."

“The Copelands, the KCM staff, the leadership team and I are pressing for your harvest and our harvest as a team,” the post reads. “Let’s be aggressive in our faith, in our giving and in our harvesting!”  Speaking with Copeland last month, Guerrero mentioned that both of her grandfathers were poor preachers who were “extremely offended” by those who made lots of money preaching. Copeland said he loved Guerroro’s grandfathers, and indicated he was “standing on their shoulders.”
“But when you go back to the bible, it’s full of wealth,” he said. “And it’s full of miracles and signs and wonders, and it’s full of goodness, and it’s full of meanness. It’s full of hell on earth. Those are the demons, not the people. I love the people.”

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Gordy327
1  seeder  Gordy327    4 months ago

Televangelism: the greatest scam of all time!

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
1.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Gordy327 @1    4 months ago
Televangelism: the greatest scam of all time!

It takes the small town snake oil salesman selling spirituality and forgiveness into a regional big box store of fantasy panaceas.

 
 
 
katrix
1.2  katrix  replied to  Gordy327 @1    4 months ago

I've never understood anyone who is into televangelism.  You don't even get the social aspects of a church that way, no communion, no real ... feelings at all, I would think.   Just another reality show for idiots.

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.1  seeder  Gordy327  replied to  katrix @1.2    4 months ago
I've never understood anyone who is into televangelism....Just another reality show for idiots.

I think you understand it just fine kat. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
1.2.2  Tessylo  replied to  katrix @1.2    4 months ago

You know what they say about a fool and their money . . . 

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.2.3  seeder  Gordy327  replied to  Tessylo @1.2.2    4 months ago
You know what they say about a fool and their money .

And we can see how many fools there really are.

 
 
 
livefreeordie
1.3  livefreeordie  replied to  Gordy327 @1    4 months ago

Government is the biggest scam of all time. At least no one is forced to give them their money under threats of fines and or prison

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.3.1  seeder  Gordy327  replied to  livefreeordie @1.3    4 months ago
Government is the biggest scam of all time.

What an asinine thing to say. Without government, we wouldn't have infrastructure, health regulations, an economy, organized military, ect.. You seem to advocate anarchy.

At least no one is forced to give them their money under threats of fines and or prison

No, just under threat of eternal damnation, god's wrath, ect..

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
1.3.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  Gordy327 @1.3.1    4 months ago

Or airports for these assholes to land at.....

 
 
 
epistte
1.3.3  epistte  replied to  livefreeordie @1.3    4 months ago
Government is the biggest scam of all time. At least no one is forced to give them their money under threats of fines and or prison

Why are you on the internet and benefit from living in a society if the government is such a scam? Do you think that your life would be the same if it wasn't for the government and the advanced society that it supporters?

Stupid people are convinced to hand over more than 10% of their income to religious shysters because of empty threats of hell and false promises of eternal bliss that the minister never has to prove because he/she cannot.   The bible is the most popular and possibly the most damaging book of fiction ever assembled because religions have convinced people to believe myths and fiction to be true if they are capable of mass self-delusion. 

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
1.4  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Gordy327 @1    4 months ago

Got to agree with you on that one. Copeland is one of the worst evangelical scam artists in this country. He learned his tricks well from his "mentor" Oral Roberts. Joel Osteen is another one. When I went to church, I always picked one with a congregation of no more than 50 to 100 people. That way you knew pretty well who was doing what.

 
 
 
MrFrost
1.4.1  MrFrost  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @1.4    4 months ago
Oral Roberts.

Giggity. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.4.2  seeder  Gordy327  replied to  MrFrost @1.4.1    4 months ago

th?id=OIP.H7gsK8xMmdqPmyKXN-1mTQAAAA&w=1

 
 
 
Enoch
1.4.3  Enoch  replied to  Gordy327 @1.4.2    4 months ago

Dear Friend Gordy: Where did you get my photo?

E.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
1.4.4  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  MrFrost @1.4.1    4 months ago

A Navy buddy of mine is convinced Oral Robert's is a disease of the mouth...

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.4.5  seeder  Gordy327  replied to  Enoch @1.4.3    4 months ago

Oh, I have a few of them. jrSmiley_100_smiley_image.jpg

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
1.4.6  Trout Giggles  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @1.4    3 months ago

But do you really want to know who's doing what with whom? lol

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
1.4.7  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Trout Giggles @1.4.6    3 months ago

Naw, this enquiring mind does not want to know that much...jrSmiley_85_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
JohnRussell
2  JohnRussell    4 months ago

Sounds like some scenes from a National Lampoon movie. 

This guy really likes to rub the noses of his saps in it. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
2.1  seeder  Gordy327  replied to  JohnRussell @2    4 months ago

If only it were National Lampoon. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
2.2  sandy-2021492  replied to  JohnRussell @2    4 months ago

He runs their noses in it, and they love him for it.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
2.2.1  sandy-2021492  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.2    3 months ago

Rubs. Stupid phone.

 
 
 
Gordy327
2.2.2  seeder  Gordy327  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.2.1    3 months ago

That's OK Sandy. We knew what you were saying.

 
 
 
Tessylo
3  Tessylo    4 months ago

Notice how that scumbag called the reporter 'baby' said she had lovely eyes and I think he called her sweetheart one time also.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
3.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  Tessylo @3    4 months ago

His next scandal will be someone finding him flying his mistress(es) around the world in his luxury Gulfstream

 
 
 
Ender
3.1.1  Ender  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1    4 months ago

Or some choir boy.

 
 
 
Tessylo
3.1.2  Tessylo  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1    4 months ago

Maybe the Copelands are swingers.  I can see that.

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.3  epistte  replied to  Tessylo @3.1.2    4 months ago
Maybe the Copelands are swingers.  I can see that.

I just threw up in mouth a little.

Thank you for that mental image just before dinner. 

 
 
 
charger 383
3.1.4  charger 383  replied to  Tessylo @3.1.2    3 months ago

That was funny and it would not surprise  me if it were true

 
 
 
TᵢG
4  TᵢG    4 months ago

Copeland is one of the worst.   It just amazes me that so many people support these con-men.   How gullible can one be?    Many of them are elderly and desperate (e.g. dying of cancer and looking for a direct line to plead to God) but there are plenty of followers who buy this nonsense for no reason other than an inability to think critically.

And then we have Gloria Copeland who got up in front of her husband's followers and seriously talked about how Ken Copeland can control the weather:

 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
4.1  JohnRussell  replied to  TᵢG @4    4 months ago

My favorite was the one a couple years ago where the preacher lady (forget her name) said she was going to use God's name to order a hurricane that was hitting the east coast to go out to California and put out the forest fires going on there at the time. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
4.1.1  TᵢG  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1    4 months ago

An example of why I am such a proponent for critical thinking.

 
 
 
evilgenius
5  evilgenius    4 months ago

I'm always surprised that people give this guy, and people like him, money. It's not like religion hasn't ever been used as a scam before.

 
 
 
Tessylo
6  Tessylo    4 months ago

Fuckabee has a show also.  Scum.  

 
 
 
luther28
7  luther28    4 months ago

I happened to see this fellows interview last evening, forget about being a scammer and con man, this guy was downright creepy.

 
 
 
Tessylo
7.1  Tessylo  replied to  luther28 @7    4 months ago
'this guy was downright creepy'

Agreed.  What a slimeball, sleazebag.  

 
 
 
livefreeordie
8  livefreeordie    4 months ago

Atheists love to focus on the heretics as if they are the norm. 99.9% of Christian ministers seldom earn as much as the average person in their country

 
 
 
TᵢG
8.1  TᵢG  replied to  livefreeordie @8    4 months ago

A ridiculous stereotype that illustrates you missed the point of the article.

This article does not claim that these con-men are your typical Christian priests, preachers, ministers or pastors.    Rather it is about the degree to which people are gullible — especially when dealing with matters of faith.

 
 
 
livefreeordie
8.1.1  livefreeordie  replied to  TᵢG @8.1    4 months ago

the general theme of this and other similar seeds (like the recent Franklin Graham seed) is that all Christian ministers are hucksters and phonies (that precise comment has been posted).

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
8.1.2  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  livefreeordie @8.1.1    4 months ago
is that all Christian ministers are hucksters and phonies (that precise comment has been posted).

Fact is, no televangelist would have a jet or make millions of dollars if they didn't have tens of thousands of gullible faithful sending in their money.

If the Christian God exists, why does it allow such vile creatures to use his name and supposed divine word to deceive others for their own profit, seemingly without consequence?

 
 
 
Gordy327
8.1.3  seeder  Gordy327  replied to  livefreeordie @8.1.1    4 months ago
the general theme of this and other similar seeds (like the recent Franklin Graham seed) is that all Christian ministers are hucksters and phonies (that precise comment has been posted).

Clearly some are. The only difference is, televangelists are better at it. 

 
 
 
livefreeordie
8.1.4  livefreeordie  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @8.1.2    4 months ago

Free will. God didn’t create us to be robots. We have the freedom to make our own decisions, even stupid ones

 
 
 
Gordy327
8.1.5  seeder  Gordy327  replied to  livefreeordie @8.1.4    4 months ago
Free will. God didn’t create us to be robots.

If there were a god, there wouldn't be free will.

We have the freedom to make our own decisions, even stupid ones

Yes we do. We also have the freedom to call out how stupid some of those decisions are too.

 
 
 
devangelical
8.1.6  devangelical  replied to  livefreeordie @8.1.1    4 months ago
all christian ministers are hucksters and phonies

that isn't true. some are adulterers and/or pedophiles.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
8.1.7  Drakkonis  replied to  TᵢG @8.1    4 months ago
Rather it is about the degree to which people are gullible — especially when dealing with matters of faith.

Other than the money these particular type of televangelists make, do you see any difference between them and the poorest pastors who also exhort their followers to rely on faith in God for everything in their life? That is, to trust God rather than themselves? To deny their own personal desires for the things God wants them to desire? That God should be the center and goal of their life? Matters of faith like that? 

 
 
 
TᵢG
8.1.8  TᵢG  replied to  livefreeordie @8.1.1    4 months ago

Well this is just another case where you are dead wrong.    Best to not invent your own truth.   This seed focuses on a minority of Christian authorities and specifically on the category of televangelists.   In particular, the prosperity gospel breed of televangelist.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
8.1.9  Drakkonis  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @8.1.2    4 months ago
If the Christian God exists, why does it allow such vile creatures to use his name and supposed divine word to deceive others for their own profit, seemingly without consequence?

Why do you think there are no consequences? Perhaps people who think they can buy God's grace, the donors in other words, are getting exactly what they deserve? Anyone who has the ability to read can easily see that what these televangelists do and say, and how they live, does not match up with the lives of Jesus and his Apostles did and said. Anyone can see that their focus was on God, while these televangelists have their focus on money. I surmise that is what their followers have their hopes in as well. If they just pay God enough then they will be wealthy, too. Perhaps Tessylo said it best. "To televangelists (and their followers), god is green and he folds." 

 
 
 
TᵢG
8.1.10  TᵢG  replied to  Drakkonis @8.1.7    4 months ago
Other than the money these particular type of televangelists make, do you see any difference between them and the poorest pastors who also exhort their followers to rely on faith in God for everything in their life?

Yes.   The prosperity gospel televangelists are con-men who exploit the gullibility of faithful Christians.   They contradict the most common Christian teachings.   They clearly are not true believers ... they are despicable societal leeches.    Normal pastors, etc. (the majority) genuinely believe what they are teaching (at least for the most part).   That is a major difference in my opinion.

That is, to trust God rather than themselves? To deny their own personal desires for the things God wants them to desire? That God should be the center and goal of their life? Matters of faith like that? 

I presume that you do not think the televangelists like Ken Copeland trust God, deny personal desires to do God's work, etc.    If so, you and I both see two very different types of religious authorities.   On one extreme there are the dishonest opportunists like Copeland.   On the other extreme we have the altruistic teachers / ministers such as our own Enoch (albeit Judaism vs. Christianity).

 
 
 
epistte
8.1.11  epistte  replied to  livefreeordie @8.1.4    4 months ago
Free will. God didn’t create us to be robots. We have the freedom to make our own decisions, even stupid ones

How can we possibly have free will if your god is omniscient? Believers may have the appearance of free will but if your god is all knowing then he knows what you are going to do before it happens and as such, there is no free will. 

 If you believe that your god looks out for you and has a plan for you then you cannot have free will to act as you choose.  That ide also negates sin and religious morality because if you cannot choose to act independently then you can not be blamed for your actions or choose to act immorally. 

For the believer, we are told to trust God and know that his will is perfect. Pulpit axioms and best-selling books echo themes to the effect of the Lord’s words to Jeremiah: “For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future” ( Jeremiah 29:11 ).
 
 
 
JohnRussell
8.1.12  JohnRussell  replied to  epistte @8.1.11    4 months ago
How can we possibly have free will if your god is omniscient? Believers may have the appearance of free will but if your god is all knowing then he knows what you are going to do before it happens and as such, there is no free will. 

This is a misunderstanding of the different natures of God and human beings. It is impossible for human beings to not experience free will, and that would be true whether God exists or not. Try and envision a circumstance in which you would not have a free will to think of the situation in any way you chose. You can't. You are even free to imagine that God controls your every thought. But it is still your choice. 

There is no contradiction between God and human free will. Your free will manifests when you choose to think something. Even if God did know in advance what the outcome would be, you still make a choice, and what's more, you cannot not make a choice. 

 
 
 
Freefaller
8.1.13  Freefaller  replied to  livefreeordie @8.1.4    4 months ago
God didn’t create us to be robots.

No that's the job of organized religion to make us into robots

 
 
 
katrix
8.1.14  katrix  replied to  JohnRussell @8.1.12    4 months ago
This is a misunderstanding of the different natures of God and human beings.

If there were a god, no human would possibly understand its nature.  Yet religious people constantly claim they know this, even if none of them can manage to agree.

 
 
 
epistte
8.1.15  epistte  replied to  JohnRussell @8.1.12    4 months ago

Deleted at poster's request and corrected below.   charger383

 
 
 
livefreeordie
8.1.16  livefreeordie  replied to  Freefaller @8.1.13    4 months ago

That’s true of religion but Christianity, being a follower of Christ is not about religion. Christianity has been called a religion, but is in actuality about restoring mankind’s personal relationship with God as it was with Adam and Eve where YHWH (Jesus) walked and talked with them in the Garden.

Unfortunately today, much of Christianity has left the teachings of Jesus to build religion instead of disciples (disciplined followers of Jesus and His teachings

Jesus never tells us to build the church. He tells us to make disciples. He builds the church as we make disciples. The church is neither buildings nor organizations.  It is the people

Jesus spent more than three years teaching and preparing the Disciples. And then after He rose from the grave He devoted 40 days on intense teaching

“Therefore, go and make people from all nations into talmidim, immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh , and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember! I will be with you always, yes, even until the end of the age.”

Matthew 28:19-20 Messianic Bible translation 

“The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.”

Acts 1:1-3 NKJV

Notice the Lord never said go out and build up churches

 
 
 
MrFrost
8.1.17  MrFrost  replied to  livefreeordie @8.1.4    4 months ago
God didn’t create us to be robots.

"God" didn't create us at all.

 
 
 
epistte
8.1.18  epistte  replied to  epistte @8.1.15    4 months ago
This is a misunderstanding of the different natures of God and human beings. It is impossible for human beings to not experience free will, and that would be true whether God exists or not. Try and envision a circumstance in which you would not have a free will to think of the situation in any way you chose. You can't. You are even free to imagine that God controls your every thought. But it is still your choice.  There is no contradiction between God and human free will. Your free will manifests when you choose to think something. Even if God did know in advance what the outcome would be, you still make a choice, and what's more, you cannot not make a choice. 

 Either you have actual free will or you do not. You may have the illusion or appearance of free will but if that free will is just an illusion or a religious belief then it does not mean that it is true free will. You are making excuses for religion because of your Catholic beliefs. 

If God knew in advance what you would do then you do not have free will but an appearance of free will and are no more than a marionette because it cannot see the person manipulating the strings.

How can you be held accountable for your actions as a sin if they were already decided and your god let them happen when he could have changed them if you believe that he is also omnipotent?  If your God punishes you for sin that was predetermined then it that the actions of a loving God?

I understand that this possibility might be frightening to you because it could force you to reconsider what you thought that you knew for many years. This situation is what Plato is describing in his cave allegory where people spent their life chained to a wall in a cave looking at what they thought they knew to be true, but when they are unchained and are permitted to go out in daylight they realized that they thought was reality was actually a created illusion of fire and manipulated shadows.

From my perspective, I see a situation of the Stockholm Syndrome but I wish that I could describe it in a way that believers understood and could accept rather than coming across as insulting or arrogant because I do not mean to be either. 

IMVHO.

 
 
 
Freefaller
8.1.19  Freefaller  replied to  livefreeordie @8.1.16    4 months ago
Christianity has been called a religion, but is in actuality about restoring mankind’s personal relationship with Go

No it is an organized religion no redefining the meaning can change that, and that statement is true of every one of the many, many sects (incl yours) of Christianity

 
 
 
TᵢG
8.1.20  TᵢG  replied to  JohnRussell @8.1.12    4 months ago
Try and envision a circumstance in which you would not have a free will to think of the situation in any way you chose. You can't. You are even free to imagine that God controls your every thought. But it is still your choice. 

I agree that the intuitive analysis makes it appear as though free will is a given.   But we have found (especially in the last century) that our senses and our intuition (which is evolved based on our senses) can be deceiving.   

Step outside of the confines of your intuition and thus outside of the leap to incredulity.   Consider this:

If the future is knowable then free will is impossible.

A knowable future means that it is possible to know what you will do in 5 minutes (to the second).   Even with such a simple case involving a single human being, the factors that shape the future are incomprehensibly large.   If the future is knowable then it is possible to know that the answer to the question is that you are going to get out of your chair and look out at the window in response to the sound of breaking glass in the street.   But this is known well before you make the choice to stand up and look.   So if your 'choice' to stand up and look was known before the thought even entered your mind, how can you claim that is was your free will that decided to stand up and look?     Answer:  if the future is knowable, our choices are known before we make them ... there is no free will.

For any entity to be omniscient, the future must be knowable.

The key to free will is whether or not the future is knowable.   If the future is unknowable then free will certainly can exist (no guarantee, but cannot be excluded).   However, if the future is knowable then reality is a network of mechanical cause & effect.   No free will.   

The only way an entity could know the future is if the future is knowable.   So claiming an entity (any entity) capable of knowing the future ipso facto claims the future is knowable and thus free will is impossible.

 
 
 
Enoch
8.1.21  Enoch  replied to  TᵢG @8.1.10    3 months ago

Dear Friend and Brother Tig: Thank you.

Much appreciated.

Some time why don't you and I co-author an article on some area of mutual agreement where we can each bring to the community our own unique perspectives on a topic of universal import?

So doing would be a high honor for me.

An opportunity for us to give the community a chance to reflect, comment and participate in a thread of enduring worth and merit.

Something in the field of moral philosophy perhaps.

In each of our communities, as in all collections of humanity there are folks who opine and apply ethics as a way to best live life for ourselves, those around us, all life forms and the environment.

P&AB Always.

Enoch.

P.S. We can meet where ever you wish. 

I will get there by public transportation.

My nineteen year old rust bucket (Enochobile) is at L and V Autotmotive.  

It is undergoing an oil transfusion and brake implants.

Why not update it?

Service to all humanity with no exceptions is not about dollars.

It is all about the sense.

E.

 
 
 
TᵢG
8.1.22  TᵢG  replied to  Enoch @8.1.21    3 months ago

Interesting idea, I will give it some thought Enoch.

 
 
 
Enoch
8.1.23  Enoch  replied to  TᵢG @8.1.22    3 months ago

Dear Friend Tig: When ready please site private note me.

Looking forward to it.

E.

 
 
 
Tessylo
8.2  Tessylo  replied to  livefreeordie @8    4 months ago

To televangelists, god is green and he folds.  

 
 
 
livefreeordie
8.2.1  livefreeordie  replied to  Tessylo @8.2    4 months ago

You prove my assertion with this post. You make a blanket condemnation of all Christian ministers who appear on television as greedymoneyseekers.  It simply isn’t true. There are many I agree who pervert the message of Christ for monetary gain, but many who don’t.

 
 
 
Tessylo
8.2.2  Tessylo  replied to  livefreeordie @8.2.1    4 months ago

I SAID TELEVANGELISTS!  Not 'christian' 'ministers' 

 
 
 
Gordy327
8.2.3  seeder  Gordy327  replied to  livefreeordie @8.2.1    4 months ago
You make a blanket condemnation of all Christian ministers who appear on television as greedymoneyseekers.

Where did he say "all Christian ministers?" He explicitly said "televangelists."

There are many I agree who pervert the message of Christ for monetary gain, but many who don’t.

And where are Christians who oppose televangelists or speak out against them?

 
 
 
devangelical
8.2.4  devangelical  replied to  Tessylo @8.2.2    4 months ago

remember that some of these cults think they're the only real xtians

 
 
 
epistte
8.2.5  epistte  replied to  livefreeordie @8.2.1    4 months ago

What product other than empty promises and happy thoughts do they provide for the money that they take in?

Where is the evidence to support that god or heaven exists and that prayers are answered in a meaningful way?

 
 
 
livefreeordie
8.2.6  livefreeordie  replied to  Gordy327 @8.2.3    4 months ago

We speak out against heretics, the greedy, and other abusers of following Christ internally as it should be. And we follow the Biblical directions for dealing with such persons

“I am pleading with all of you, brothers and sisters, to keep up your guard against anyone who is causing conflicts and enticing others with teachings contrary to what you have already learned. If there are people like that in your churches, stay away from them. These kinds of people are not truly serving our Lord Jesus the Anointed; they have devoted their lives to satisfying their own appetites. With smooth talking and a well-rehearsed blessing, they lead a lot of unsuspecting people down the wrong path.”

Romans 16:17-18

“For the time has come  for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?”

1 Peter 4:17 

Luke 17:3,4

“If another believer sins, rebuke that person; then if there is repentance, forgive. Even if that person wrongs you seven times a day and each time turns again and asks forgiveness, you must forgive.”

2 Timothy 4:1,2.  “I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:  Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching”

“Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.”   Titus 2:15 

 
 
 
livefreeordie
8.2.7  livefreeordie  replied to  epistte @8.2.5    4 months ago

I oppose most of what goes on in televangelism.  Most is about greed and self seeking. But not all. I certainly know some who do not ask for money and live simple lives

i myself was a guest speaker on several programs in the 80s and 90s. I never asked for money, never received any money for my time on the air. 

I have several friends in the ministry even now who pay out of their own pocket and never ask for funds.

As to God and heaven, I’ve responded before and it’s a different context from this seed,so we can revisit in another seed in the future.

 
 
 
epistte
8.2.8  epistte  replied to  livefreeordie @8.2.7    4 months ago
i myself was a guest speaker on several programs in the 80s and 90s. I never asked for money, never received any money for my time on the air.  I have several friends in the ministry even now who pay out of their own pocket and never ask for funds.

I accept your statement as fact.

As to God and heaven, I’ve responded before and it’s a different context from this seed, so we can revisit in another seed in the future.

I look forward to having that discussion with you in the future.

 
 
 
katrix
8.2.9  katrix  replied to  livefreeordie @8.2.6    4 months ago
We speak out against heretics, the greedy, and other abusers of following Christ internally as it should be. And we follow the Biblical directions for dealing with such persons

And that's admirable.  Unfortunately, the charlatans don't really care what others think about them.  They have come up with the most convoluted reasoning for why the bible actually supports their actions.

 
 
 
devangelical
8.2.10  devangelical  replied to  livefreeordie @8.2.6    4 months ago
we follow the Biblical directions for dealing with such persons

... by voting for them and defending their activities.

 
 
 
Gordy327
8.2.11  seeder  Gordy327  replied to  livefreeordie @8.2.6    4 months ago
We speak out against heretics, the greedy, and other abusers of following Christ internally as it should be. And we follow the Biblical directions for dealing with such persons

Where? When? How? I don't see any news reports about anyone speaking out against televangelists. No one is marching or rallying to expose or boycott them. I don't hear anyone calling for them to be audited, arrested, removed, ect.. Who is this "we" you refer to? If they're supposedly "speaking out," they must be whispering.

 
 
 
Gordy327
8.2.12  seeder  Gordy327  replied to  katrix @8.2.9    4 months ago
Unfortunately, the charlatans don't really care what others think about them.  They have come up with the most convoluted reasoning for why the bible actually supports their actions.

And also unfortunately, people are stupid and gullible enough to buy right into it on a regular basis.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
8.2.13  Drakkonis  replied to  Gordy327 @8.2.11    3 months ago

Just look it up on YouTube, Gordy. You'll find lots of people denouncing these people. You're not likely to see it anywhere else because it doesn't suit MSM to show people denouncing practices such as this. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
8.2.14  seeder  Gordy327  replied to  Drakkonis @8.2.13    3 months ago
Just look it up on YouTube, Gordy.

I don't go to youtube for my news sources, thanks.

You'll find lots of people denouncing these people.

Not enough apparently.

You're not likely to see it anywhere else because it doesn't suit MSM to show people denouncing practices such as this.

Right, because MSN is the sole source for news coverage. Ok >sarc<

 
 
 
livefreeordie
8.2.15  livefreeordie  replied to  devangelical @8.2.10    3 months ago

We don’t vote for televangelists or pastors

 
 
 
Don Overton
8.2.16  Don Overton  replied to  livefreeordie @8.2.15    3 months ago

Y et you did when you voted for the antichrist trump, or don't you remember his VP

 
 
 
Tessylo
9  Tessylo    4 months ago

We're not talking about 'christian' ministers - we're talking about televangelist scumbags, sleazeballs, slime

 
 
 
devangelical
9.1  devangelical  replied to  Tessylo @9    4 months ago

I like to focus on the born again heretics and hypocrites that subsidize their incomes with tax exempt religious cash because the conservative officials they elect are much more efficient about stuffing their own pockets with lobbyist cash than they are at approving benefit increases to veterans at most every legislative opportunity.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
10  Trout Giggles    4 months ago

Ya know...I get that these "preachers" go around the world and it's nice to get from one place to another as quick as possible with as little hassle as possible...

.....but do you really need all that luxury? How much will 10 million get you? Maybe not a private bedroom, but I bet you could get one with a couch that folds down into a bed. It would be nice to have a fridge so you can have cold beverages on hand and stuff to make sammiches with. A coffee maker would be nice.....

....but do you really need 54 million dollars worth of luxury to go from California to Hawaii?????

 
 
 
epistte
10.1  epistte  replied to  Trout Giggles @10    4 months ago
Ya know...I get that these "preachers" go around the world and it's nice to get from one place to another as quick as possible with as little hassle as possible...

.....but do you really need all that luxury? How much will 10 million get you? Maybe not a private bedroom, but I bet you could get one with a couch that folds down into a bed. It would be nice to have a fridge so you can have cold beverages on hand and stuff to make sammiches with. A coffee maker would be nice.....

....but do you really need 54 million dollars worth of luxury to go from California to Hawaii?????

For a budget of 10 million US, you can get a very nice Cessna Citation.

https://www.uberpanache.com/the-three-top-private-jets-under-usd-10-million-b717620a

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
11  Trout Giggles    4 months ago
I love people. Jesus loves people. But people get pushed in alcohol. Do you think that’s a good place for a preacher to be and prepare to preach?”

Do you think Jesus would have said: "Wait until we land...I can't tend to you right now"

 
 
 
Tessylo
11.1  Tessylo  replied to  Trout Giggles @11    4 months ago

Well for heaven's sake TG, that is “agitating his spirit.”

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
11.1.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  Tessylo @11.1    4 months ago

giggle

 
 
 
Ender
12  Ender    4 months ago

And Jesus stepped up onto the mount and proclaimed...Give all your hard earned money to televangelists, as they need to fly the world in luxury...

 
 
 
MrFrost
13  MrFrost    4 months ago

I saw this interview yesterday and he is an unhinged lunatic. No other way to put it. 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
14  Thrawn 31    4 months ago

Taking advantage of scared, gullible idiots for personal gain is the foundation of religion.

 
 
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