Would You Pardon Edward Snowden and/or Julian Assange ?

Both these guys were anarchists at some point in their lives, and I am loathe to consider anyone Glenn Greenwald hypes as being a good guy, but I think you could reasonably argue that both have them have been punished. 

I have an ambivalent feeling about pardoning them, but I wouldnt consider it an outrage either. 

Oh wait a minute, Assange interfered in the US presidential election of 2016, on Trumps behalf. He deserves to stay where he is.

That means he will get the pardon and Snowden wont. 

On a cold day in Hell!

I place Snowden in the same category as Bradley Manning. A traitorous piece of filth. The big difference between Snowden and Manning is that Manning did not cowardly cut and run, but stayed and faced the music for his crimes.

No

For once we agree. No, I wouldn't pardon them.. 

Neither would I pardon them.  But, if Trump does would that be an indication of something he knows which could have consequence to him personally down the road.  I say this because I do not believe Trump to be smart guy and lacking the ability to see anything beyond his usual fist pump.

He won't pardon them. Nothing in it for himself.

Assange always struck me as a weirdo. I always think he is just like a frontman, just a face. Like someone else is behind the scenes and he is just a face for the cameras.

I agree with your 'front man' thought.  Except I'd like to know who he is fronting for and why?

Never.

Has Trump given any indication that he is going to pardon either?

More pearl clutching from the left.

After the POS that Clinton and Obama pardoned, the left has no room to talk.

nypost

washingtonpost

Has Trump given any indication that he is going to pardon either?

Depends on how much money they can come up with. 

Pardon Assange and Snowden?   That is a tough one.

1.  Neither deserve it.

2.  On the other hand, if given a 'free pass', then both could be compelled to testify under oath, give depositions under oath about anything and everyone under penalty of prison if they are deceptive, dishonest, covering or outright lying.

3.  Those for and against a pardon for these two characters, many of whom are citing 'principals' as their reasoning can be rest assured that principals have absolutely nothing to do with either of these-------characters.

Thinking about whistleblowers.  How does everyone feel about the guy who told the truth about the tobacco companies?

No.

One I know he WON'T pardon is Meng Wanzhou, even though she is not guilty of anything. 

Hell no I would not pardon them.

It makes sense that one needs to be convicted before a pardon can be considered. That said, journalism isn't a crime. It certainly isn't a crime to expose crimes of the state. The Assange campaign is about intimidating journalists. Real journalists. They are a dying breed. The state means to keep it that way.

A pardon would pre-empt any conviction. You dont have to have been convicted to receive a pardon. 

My point is, in the absence of proven guilt, a pardon is meaningless. Bear in mind -- I wasn't raised in the US and that does have some bearing on my thinking.

I wouldn’t even pardon them if they farted.  Personally, I think there is a lot more to know about Snowden that will probably never be exposed.  The fact that he’s been living in Putin’s realm doesn’t bode well for his story.

That he had to flee the United States at all seems not to bode well for our [US] story ...

You sound like you are making the assumption that he had to flee to protect himself from persecution for releasing classified materials.  What if he wasn’t just valiantly exposing secrets that should be exposed, but instead he’s been used as a vehicle to introduce the new normal of overt surveillance to the world, and he wasn’t fleeing but rather just relocating per plan.  This all goes back to the PRISM government surveillance program that got too big to hide anymore.

What if he wasn’t just valiantly exposing secrets that should be exposed, but instead he’s been used as a vehicle to introduce the new normal of overt surveillance to the world, and he wasn’t fleeing but rather just relocating per plan.

‘What if he wasn’t just valiantly exposing secrets that should be exposed, but instead he’s been used as a vehicle to introduce the new normal of overt surveillance to the world, and he wasn’t fleeing but rather just relocating per plan.’

The short answer is this: Snowden stated his reasons for leaking NSA’s ubiquitous illegal spying by telling the South China Morning Post, ‘I am not here to hide from justice; I am here to reveal criminality.’ The threat on Snowden’s life was credible. The US ruling class had been losing credibility and the trust of broad masses of the population. Unable to convince the public to bow to its authority, the ruling class resorts to threats and terror.

So as I see it, Snowden was not ‘used’ to introduce a new and baser standard of authoritarian rule. Snowden [together with Manning, Assange and others] are a call to the working class 90% to be the answer to a democracy that is collapsing under the weight of imperial militarism and the concentration of unimaginable wealth into the hands of the 1%.

So that is the short answer, followed by my perspective. The longer answer [far more interesting in my view] requires a balance sheet of class relations in the months and weeks prior to Snowden’s revelations.

Two months prior to Snowden’s disclosure, an International Consortium of Investigative Journalists leaked report stated that globally, the ultra-wealthy, banks and corporations had some $32 trillion hidden in off-shore tax havens. With that not quite forgotten, consider the socio-economic and political environment just weeks prior to Snowden’s revelations.

The undeclared war on Syria was stalling as Assad beat back our ‘rebels.’ Threats of imperial intervention mounted. The possibility of a third world war was real. Never one to forego any new provocation, the White House convened meetings to escalate the Syrian crisis and stop the ongoing collapse of its ‘rebels.’ Russia was definitely on the ‘outs,’ and armed stand-off plus mounting tensions in the South China Sea only acerbated the situation.

Meanwhile, the official FBI murder of Ibragim Todashev story was unraveling. This cast suspicion on everything said to that point about the Boston Marathon bombings. Then Valentina Matvienko, Speaker of the Russian Senate, disclosed that FSB Russian Federal Security Service officials sent numerous warnings to US authorities about Boston Marathon bombing suspect Tamerlan Tsarnaev, but that ‘this information was not taken seriously by the American side.’

And the Taliban initiated a ‘spring offensive.’ The wave of attacks included heavily-fortified Kabul; it showed that the US puppet regime of Afghan President Hamid Karzai was incapable of protecting even the capital city itself. The US Defense Secretary outlined military build-up in Asia, and President Obama ordered plans for cyberwarfare first strike.

Then the Socialist Equality Party [Australian section] made extensive US military expansion down under central to its 2013 national campaign. Ruthless toward the working class at the best of time, the ruling class was feeling particularly vicious as Snowden’s revelations were about to burst on the scene. The indolent wealthy had had enough revelations.

But they weren’t angry alone.

Across the country, a number of anti-working class social attacks occurred simultaneously.

Health care overhaul was threatening to leave millions of poor Americans uninsured. In Washington DC, a health firm buyout left thousands without medical coverage. It was learned that US DOE officials concealed evidence of radioactive leak in Washington. Numerous red flags were ignored, and the public was told lies. A US farm bill proposal included huge cuts to food assistance. Ford closures were on the agenda. Plans were made to sell Detroit Institute of Art masterpieces, and bankers met in Detroit to plot asset-stripping. California Police beat a guy to death and confiscated witness’s cells. And the CDC began investigating a deadly fungal disease outbreak in California prisons.

Privatization was also gearing up. It came out that nine of Louisiana’s ten public hospitals were to be privatized. In New York City, a teacher evaluation program was used to deepen attacks on public education. Illinois’ Governor proposed a 70% cut to school transportation budget. There were Chicago school closings. In Philadelphia, there were schools layoffs off nearly 4,000 teachers. Not to be left out, Obama and Congress prepared an interest hike on student loans.

Domestically and internationally, socio-political class relations on the eve of Snowden’s revelations were foul already. It seemed that another blow was struck almost daily. Obama’s attorney general admitted to approving a search warrant for news reporter. Washington stepped up Chinese hacking allegations. One event particularly comes to mind.

On the eve of Penny Pritzker’s confirmation hearing for Commerce Secretary, the Obama nominee admitted to underreporting her 2012 income by $80 million. Then worth an estimated $1.85 billion, she blamed a clerical error. No matter, senators forgave the $80 million ‘mistake.’ This showed the increasingly plutocratic character of Obama’s administration and of the US government at large.

The privilege and unimaginable economic disparity are not only incompatible with democratic forms of rule – they are broadly hated by the working class. It is significant that on the eve of the Snowden’s disclosure, the UN warned of social unrest in Europe. You can be sure that the US ruling class heard this loudly.

At the same time, the US banking industry reported record, first quarter profits. Then a St. Louis Federal Reserve study was published; it documented the vast disparity in the fortunes of US families since the ‘08 fiscal crisis. It showed the bulk of aggregate wealth ‘recovery’ went to the richest layers of the population. More than likely, these conditions became the effective impetus which initiated Bradley Manning’s court martial after well over 3 years in prison.

Then the British Guardian newspaper published a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court secret court order instructing Verizon to turn over, on an ongoing and daily basis, all ‘metadata’ relating to customer calls. When it came out that the Obama admin was collecting phone records on tens of millions of Americans, his response was to defend his expanded version of Bush’ massive spy program on Americans as necessary to protect Americans.

That rationale was as fraudulent as it was ludicrous.  The US regime won’t protect its people from pandemic, school and factory closures, head/water shut-offs, hunger or even robo-scammers that interrupt home life 5 times an hour. Oh but if it bears on imperial interests or the elite’s wealth, ‘protecting’ us becomes a national imperative. Horse-feathers!

Massive, domestic spying means that the ruling class DOESN’T trust workers. Aided by national mythologies/images, agitprop campaigns, fictitious narratives [our (ruling class) way of life, etc.], that is HIDDEN from public eye. But if it fails to secure voluntary subjugation, the ruling class goes for blood. Snowden exposed a ruling class that sees the 90% as a HOSTILE and existential threat to its existence even as it engorges itself on opulent created by worker sweat.

For those who profited from extreme disparity coupled to ongoing class attacks plus international intrigue, Snowden’s ‘guilt’ didn’t matter; this was a case of class interest. The balance sheet shows how deeply class relations deteriorated. Lest the working class learn the enormity of its danger and rouse itself for a grand fight, all that mattered was that the revelations stop! The response to Snowden intended to intimidate and dissuade other potential whistle-blowers. After all – for the conditions I named and more – the workers had EVERY reason to listen.

In his Greenwald interview, Snowden spoke with erudition and eloquence of an ‘architecture of oppression’ extending far beyond what was then revealed. He showed that the official political spectrum has NO constituency for democracy. By the second week of June, ’13, Snowden was already the subject of a vicious assault. Democratic and GOP officials alike denounced his ‘treason.’ Talking heads and pundits called for his assassination.

The ‘hate Snowden’ campaign – uniformly vicious by Democrats, Republicans, media and more – requires an explanation beyond the supposed ‘facts of the Snowden case’ itself. As I see it, the state of class relations alone explains it. The vitriol occurs because disclosure delegitimizes the architecture of class-rule oppression in the US and globally. The same holds for Manning, Assange and others. Snowden’s concerns were as justified as ruling class’ concern for its safety. 

In the end, the question forces itself upon us: Who rules America?

Trotsky said that the strength of the ruling class is that it knows its weakness, and the weakness of the working class is that it does not know its own strength. I contend that the working class must write its own history.

Whose history will you write?