Ohio football coaches allegedly force Jewish student to eat pork for missing practice
Category: News & Politics
Via: sandy-2021492 • 3 years ago • 130 commentsBy: Stephanie Czekalinski, Kelly Kennedy ( httpswww. cleveland. com)
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Canton football coaches allegedly force Jewish student to eat pork for missing practice By Stephanie Czekalinski and Kelly Kennedy| June 1, 2021 at 9:53 PM EDT - Updated June 2 at 2:39 PM
CANTON, Ohio (WOIO) - A high school football coach was placed on administrative leave Wednesday after he reportedly forced a football player to violate the tenets of his religion by eating pork.
The Canton City School district also suspended an additional seven other members of the high school football coaching staff.
"I mean it just crosses a line on every level, it's just wrong," said the family's attorney, Edward L. Gilbert.
Coach Wattley Marcus and seven assistant coaches forced a McKinley High School football player to eat a pepperoni pizza after the 17-year-old student-athlete missed a weight lifting session on May 20, according to the family's attorney Edward L. Gilbert.
What happened four days later as punishment for missing the practice was traumatizing and disrespectful for the McKinley High junior, who is Jewish and keeps Kosher, Gilbert said.
"They order him to go into the gym. He sits in a chair," said Gilbert. "There is a pizza box on the floor. He picks up the pizza — they tell him he has to, as punishment, eat that whole pizza."
It is common knowledge among the football community, Gilbert said, that the 17-year-old does not eat pork for religious reasons.
"In his view, the whole pizza was spoiled. The whole pizza was something that could not be ingested," said Gilbert. "He was ordered to eat that, and if he did not eat it then he would be most likely removed from the team, and the other teammates would have to do extra exercise that day. So you have the whole team around in this gym. You have eight coaches there yelling at him that he has to eat this stuff."
After the player finished the pizza he was instructed to do further exercises, the attorney said.
"It's our view that certainly for religious reasons this was inappropriate," Gilbert said. "It was a dumb thing to do by the coach, and we haven't been able to understand what was in this coach's mind at the time."
"To punish a kid thing like this for his religious beliefs is certainly beyond, it's ridiculous," he said.
The student's family is considering a first amendment lawsuit against the school district, Gilbert said.
Beyond the possibility of a lawsuit, the athlete and his family are trying to navigate the social and emotional fallout from the incident.
"I know that they're very uncomfortable, and, as you know, these coaches are role models for young men and women," said Gilbert. "It's going to affect them for the rest of their lives. We don't know if he's gonna go back to the school or not. Most likely he will not."
Gilbert says this young man is a star athlete, and even though he's only a junior, he's already been offered full rides to several colleges. Now his family is unsure if he'll return to McKinley high or its esteemed football program.
"They are really taking it very difficult because this is a situation where their religion is being disrespected, they are being disrespected and their son in front of the whole team has been disrespected," Gilbert said.
19 News tried to reach out to head coach Marcus Wattley for comment, but so far we haven't heard back.
The school district issued a statement on its website. Read it in its entirety here:
At the Canton City Schools, the safety and wellbeing of our students is our top priority.
An incident occurred during a football training session that was concerning enough to warrant immediate action by the Canton City School District. That immediate action was the suspension of eight members of the High School Football Coaching Staff, including the head coach, while an investigation is conducted.
The incident calls into question whether appropriate team management, discipline, and player accountability infrastructures are in place.
The District is nearing the completion of its investigation regarding this incident. Once a conclusion is reached, following our commitment to transparency, the District will provide additional information.
The football program, which has a long and impressive history, is an important part of our school culture and our community. That program has a proud tradition of instilling the attributes of excellence, leadership, community, accountability, hard work, and respect into the players and those associated with the overall program. As such, those entrusted with the protection of our student-athletes must be held to a higher standard within our community.
Let us be clear, the Canton City School District holds all staff to the highest professional and ethical standards. Anything short of these standards is unacceptable.
As educators, we are united in the pursuit of creating an inclusive and safe learning environment for our students in the classroom and beyond.
Copyright 2021 WOIO. All rights reserved.
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Good. I hope they sue, and I hope they win. The coaches should be fired.
........uh, not anymore. a twisted mind purposely came up with this player's punishment.
Sandy, please let us know if there are any new developments with this case. Thanks.
Canton is within 30 minutes from me and I had not heard of this. According to the Canton repository (the local[paper) the coach is already suspended, which is surprising for the city of Canton because the coach might have more power than the major due to the fact that in canton high school football is almost a religion. I hope that he is charged with a hate crime and the superintendent is also removed.
I figured football was probably king there, considering it's the home of the Football Hall of Fame.
I only saw a quick headline on my Facebook newsfeed yesterday. When I went back to look for more, there weren't many articles, and one only mentioned "an incident", without providing any details.
The Football Hall of Fame is within walking distance of Canton McKinley high school as if it's less than a block away. They are only separated by the stadium where the HOF game is played. Football is king in NEO and the coaches walk on water. I know that area very well because my late sister lived about a mile away and when I was in high school back in the dark ages the regional basketball playoffs were held in the gymnasium of McKinley.
The POTUS McKinley memorial and tomb is across the highway from the school.
High school academics are treated as they are is they are a form of teenage daycare before football practice starts.
Hi epistte, long time no see. Glad to have you back. You have been sorely missed.
Thank you. Be careful of what you wish for, you just may get it.
Oh, I certainly hope so.
Welcome back epistte!
Fire him and sue the hell out of the school district.
I would have quit the team rather than violate one of the most important tenants of my religion and then told the coaches to shove their pizza where sun does not shine.
Ah, but the coach used the player's feelings of comradery against him - he threatened to both cut the player from the team and make his teammates work extra hard in practice. He made the kid feel guilty about the others doing extra laps (or pushups, or whatever).
I still would have quit with a parting "whatever" one finger salute.
... seventeen years old...
Even a 17 yo can count to one.
Anoon.. and the so called coaches are meant to be the adults?? Fire them all and sue them all. How do people come up with these stupid and brain dead ideas...
Requiring him to eat the pizza is one thing, but what I consider even crueler is turning the other team members against him. Mind you, if they were decent kids, they would have supported their teammate rather than the coaches. Because his teammates turned on him, he would be wise to change schools. If he was, as reported, a star athlete, both the team and the school lose, not him.
That right there goes to "intent." Even if out of ignorance or absence of an understanding about 'allergic' reactions, that the coach made it a 'bonding' issue is a strike against himself.
I don't know that his teammates turned on him, but it doesn't look like they defended him. But with such role models, that's hardly surprising.
The article said that the coaches and the team members all shouted at him while he was eating.
Could this be the foundation of an indictment:
"Four days later. . . . " this "judgement" was the best the Coach and Assistant Coaches could come up with after consultation. Let's risk the mental and physical health of a/our "star player" over a single missed practice? Or any number of missed practices?
What is motivating this?
That coach is seen as a god in Canton and likely has more power than the superintendent. The school administration wants to look like they are doing something to protect the student while they continue to protect the coach from any serious punishment.
Hi epistte! Welcome back! I can see that. Additionally, I can understand the 'complexity' of the situation and exposure this coach and assistant coaches have put themselves and their school in. Frankly, I would rather the coach keep is good reputation, staff, and resources in tact, if that is what is involved. But this is a bad image problem. It will be interesting to watch how this 'extricates' or end up.
Thank you for those kind words.
I just saw this when I was scrolling throw Facebook because I was bored. people are actually defending this coach. Typical for NE-Ohio high school football.
https://www.cantonrep.com/story/news/2021/06/02/canton-superintendent-mckinley-hs-football-coaches-disciplined/7511977002/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=ghf-cantonrep-main&fbclid=IwAR2faVttBDKloubGfacg2BiB77aoN4eitN8hMLY0npsxXCSZ0VfhgnAeRPY
Image credit:
Marcus Wattley will earn roughly $89,000 as both McKinley High School’s head football coach and the district’s academic and athletic liaison for grades 6-12. ( April 2019.)
And the student is a black athlete it seems. And what of the staff ethnicity? This is what he thought to do?!! Walk into controversy and disrespect of a youth (he is sworn to serve and protect on his watch)?
Wow! I have no words. It is what it is. And he should get what he deserves from a 'jury' of his peers, and if added, a court of law.
Epistte, thank you for spurring my interest (to probe deeper) with your article.
Good reputations are earned via good behavior. The coach's behavior has been atrocious, so he does not deserve a good reputation.
The coach's and assistants behavior as reported is atrocious. I have learned new info (for me). That is, the pepperoni was removed before the slices consumed. To be clear, I don't think that satisfies the problem. And something else I can add here: I come partially out of a mixed Christian/Muslim household background. That is, I stopped eating pork some several decades ago. I, even read labels, looking for pork products and avoiding them to this day. It is not a religious 'act' on my part. It is a life-long preference not to consume "the pig."
So I get it! The coach may have been ignorant of the depth of his error, but that still does not explain why feeding a kid a meal ranks as punishment of any kind! This coach is in it "deep and sticky."
Sorry, I misread. Only the coaches yelled at him.
Although the pepperoni was picked off the pizza, it had tarnished the cheese under it,
Yes! The oil (fat) saturates the product!
If this does go to court, watch how fast the school district throws their "god" under a school bus.
He has not been there too long (since 2019) and boy has he messed up but good! (Chuckles.) It's quite a strange screw-up (and I am being polite). What he did: Who does that?!!!
This is crazy, even if it was a vegetarian pizza you don't make a kid eat a whole pizza and then exercise. Did the coaches want to make him sick and throw up? That is abuse and knowing he does not eat pork is even worse.
>>Wave-length<< (Smile.)
Depending on how strictly his family keeps kosher, even a vegetarian pizza might violate their religion. But yeah, I can't imagine eating an entire pizza, let alone doing wind sprints afterwards.
A profound and confusing disrespect at that! It could have all been so much worse too: This young man could have had a violent reaction to eating pork and associates meat spices. Pork probably was never in his 'constitution.' Furthermore, he was additionally punished with immediate exertion. I do not know if the family cares to sue or not; a good lawyer would advise they do (in case of some future health 'complications.')
By the way, the fact that the pepperoni is a pork product is only half the problem. Because of a biblical or talmudic tenet that one should not boil the lamb in its mother's milk, it is considered not Kosher to mix meat and dairy in the same meal - so it was a sort of double indemnity of sin.
A rank case of religious persecution, intentionally done! Inexcusable, even in ignorance. It shall be costly to this school. It is an abuse of authority. Possibly an unjustified (and illegal) hazing for which the book can be thrown at the coach!
I guess one advantage of being an atheist is that you could skip practice and be rewarded with a free pizza. Life is so much easier without religious drama.
That may be true, but it is really about disrespect and that is easy to understand.
As an atheist I am inherently familiar with being disrespected. We are some of the most hated people on earth.
The only time atheists bother me is when they act as if they KNOW what is going on. (No one does.)
The usual definition of "atheist" is "someone who believes God does not exist".
Wiser heads differentiate an "agnostic" who doesn't believe God exists.
Agnostics are open to discussion. Atheists are not - they are often as rabid in their unprovable belief as the fundiest of fundies are in theirs.
I think that is true to some extent, but more and more people are becoming nonaffiliated religiously.
There is a difference between knowing what’s going on and knowing what’s not going on. The only major difference between atheists and religionists is that atheists believe in one less god. All religionists deny the concept of god of every religion that isn’t theirs, because they (rightly) know what’s not going on. If this weren’t true they would all be agnostic.
That is not an absolute truth.
I know of no atheist that isn’t open to discussion. The problem arises when said discussion relies on concepts considered idiomatic on the religious side an anathema on their side. What is there to discuss under such circumstances? Rather than discuss, I’ve simply decided to exhibit the reality that anyone of any stripe can open their mouth and openly declare god to be any evil or loathsome thing they please without suffering any consequence from said god. Religionists hate that reality.
So you’re agnostic?
That's not true. Lots of people accept the idea that their own path to God is not the only one.
Semantically, a person who "knows God does not exist" cannot be open to discussion.
Yes, I have heard some Atheists say that.
(Actually it reminds me of the way another group love to "Play the 'Victim'" card-- I'm referring to the grievances of the poor, persecuted White Christian Males..who also claim to be amongst the most hated people on earth!
)
It's a dog's life for those poor persecuted Athiests!
But I suppose there's some solace in being able to "Play The Victim Card":
Personally I find most "True Believers" to be obnoxious...as is the case with any sort of "Know it All" (Religious, Political, "Scientific", etc)
Well, not exactly true-- the only ones that really bother me are the ones who are so self-righteous and condescending that they obsessively feel the need to "enlighten" others by explaining what the "correct view" is re; the existence of God or gods...
(And then there are those who spend hours trying to convince people that God exists...or that She doesn't! (Some people really need to "Get a Life"...)
All religions are created by man. Whether any or all of them may have divine inspiration is open to individual belief.
Since there can only be one Supreme Being but there are many religions, most likely none of them is the only only and sole path.
Apparently you are unaware of the existence of Quakers (I've known a few-- I would consider every one of them to be quite religious.. in the best sense of the word)
Most Buddhists!!!
And then their are the Yazidis (as I'm sure you are aware, a while back they were constantly in the news re: what ISIS was doing to them...). Also most other Kurds (BTW, another relatively unknown fact amongst Americans...while a few of them are Christians or Jews, the vast majority of Kurds are actually Muslims.
Several branches of Islam, especially the Ahmadiyya. Also the Immamiya, ('Twelver Shiism"). Actually many Shia Muslims, although that's often complicated by current political realities in many area.
The Bahai
The Jains.
Many Hindu denominations.
Probably Zoroastrians.
And (a fact most people are unaware of) many Orthodox Jews (!) who are Talmudic Scholars).
Oh-- and how could I forget the Unitarian Universalists (sometimes I think that some of them are too tolerant...if such a thing is possible, LOL!)
Hal, I don't hate atheists, per se. And, I surely would not seek atheists out to 'offer' them abuse. I want to love people (with all my heart) and make life work for us - what we are- humanity. (Smile.)
I think a better description is one TiG introduced years ago - agnostic atheists. Most atheists are agnostic atheists. In the absence of evidence for gods, we lack belief in gods, but we don't know there are no gods. We give the Abrahamic god the same consideration we give other gods - the evidence for any is lacking, so we lack belief.
Per se!
So . . . of the groups that are most horribly persecuted in our country...which group is the most persecuted? Which group mostly is forced to live the most horrible lives in this horrible country of ours:
(Not sure if I should use the /sarcasm tag here.. or maybe is just a little bit of innocuous light trolling on my part?)
In these instances , certainty is another word for faith. Of course, most believers dont mind accepting that their belief is based on faith but I think most atheists would probably be annoyed by it.
It is impossible for there to be certainty about the existence of God. By definition God is a supernatural Being, outside our ability to investigate.
Hal, let me hasten to observe and admit that I can end my sentences peculiarly when trying to convey a point here and there; but. . . that bolded material above is in need of some clarity. (Smile.)
There's definitely a difference.
Of course its also a matter of semantics (and I myself have often been accused of being viciously anti-Semantic!).
Personally I use a somewhat less complex model:
Although that system of taxonomy was introduced to me not by TiG but rather long before that... by my olde friend William of Ockham when he gifted me an ancient hairloom-- a compleat shaving set!:
The idea is attributed to English Franciscan friar William of Ockham ( c. 1287–1347 ), a scholastic philosopher and theologian who used a preference for simplicity
more and more people are becoming nonaffiliated religiously
Hallelujah.
I don't think that's necessarily true, based on the believers I regularly encounter. They "know" there is a god, and it's their god and only their god. People who worship other gods or none are, to them, at best, misguided and at worst, evil. Why? Because they defy the god that they "know" is real.
That's the evangelical mindset that many of us experience.
Lots of people accept the idea that their own path to God is not the only one.
And do they insist on calling themselves Christian, or Muslim, or Hindu, etc. anyways? What is it with religionists that insist on their own rules on how to play a game that already has immutable rules?
Since there can only be one Supreme Being
That is Supremely Myopic.
Lol - I never claimed to be persecuted or a victim. I truly don’t give a flying fuck what anyone thinks about me because of my beliefs. People are increasingly coming to the realization that there is no / are no god(s). I’m on the right side of that enlightenment.
i guess we disagree on the definition of Supreme Being
You are limiting the meaning of the word atheist to the minority who hold that no god could possibly exist. Those are the gnostic atheists; there positions are as irrational as the gnostic theists who know that only their god exists.
Most atheists are agnostic atheists — those who are simply not convinced a god exists but are (usually very) interested in any evidence to the contrary.
It is impossible for there to be certainty about the existence of God.
Which is the crux of the issue. It is equally impossible to prove that there is not a cheeseburger buried on Pluto, but you don’t see any other movement of worldwide significance propped up on such flimsiness.
Thus holding god is that defined by the Bible is irrational.
i guess we disagree on the definition of Supreme Being
Beyond our solar system is a space so vast it makes our entire solar system look smaller than an electron on the sun. I feel it is myopic to call the whole thing a single intentional act of creation - particularly with the certainty you assign it. If you are open to the thought of everything you know to exist as being created by a single creator, then you should be open to the possibility of other unknown creations existing within an incomprehensibly vast universe.
By your definition there are very few atheists. Nobody on NT, for example, is an atheist as you define the word.
Also, there is a difference between those who believe in a god but do not believe they are necessarily right and those who are not convinced a god exists and remain open to evidence. Both are agnostic because they both recognize that their knowledge is incomplete. However, the former is a theist and the latter is not (aka atheist).
The theist-agnostic-atheist model reserves the label theist and atheist for gnostics (those who profess certainty) and then everyone else is just agnostic. It oversimplifies and lumps the supermajority as agnostics.
As I see it, the problem for religions is when they overstep their bounds (Evangelicals are 'hotly' in the News for this) they confuse, offend, injure, or destroy the lives of otherwise disinterested persons, tribes, and peoples.
And yet-- all the Atheists are so open-minded, and so accepting of other belief systems.
Why?
(BTW that was /sarcasm)
Hal, I don't hate atheists, per se.
And I don’t hate religionists. I don’t hate the players, I just hate the game. And I certainly would never make a player eat something they didn’t want to eat for any reason. But how much do you want to bet that the coach in this article considers himself a Christian?
Religion was spawned from man at the time when the only knowledge that had was from what they could physically sense. Now we have evolved knowledge to such advanced concepts as quantum entanglement. Yet the religions of ancient yore somehow continue to hold humanity back. Some day religions will vanish completely, because how could they not? It’s inevitable.
Hal, let me hasten to observe and admit that I can end my sentences peculiarly when trying to convey a point here and there; but. . . that bolded material above is in need of some clarity. (Smile.)
No problem. The typical Christian may say “I don’t know how to perfectly define what a Christian is, but I can tell you what it is not - it is not a Westboro Baptist Church member.” In a broader sense, a true Christian by biblical definition would claim to know that believers of other faiths are unquestionably wrong. Many a human over time has lost their life because of this reality. My point was that that Christian shares the same belief about how wrong the Muslim, etc. is with any atheist.
We have data to support our views
And ask any nonbeliever who lives in or was raised in an area where evangelicals are the majority. Speak to an evangelical about their opinions regarding other religions, and remember that those evangelicals are the majority. They'll tell you, secure in their position as the majority, and don't like any of their misconceptions (for example, some think Wicca is Satanism) to be contradicted. Our local newspaper regularly removed comments in response to articles about religion, when those articles weren't deemed respectful enough of religion, but allowed the articles' author to make bigoted comments about nonbelievers.
You caught that, I see. Well, I don't hate atheists, but some atheists have been 'abrupt' with me more than a few times in the past (has it been already?) six to seven years! (Grrr. Smile.)
Let's just say that for me. . .well, it's been hard to take some caliber of atheists into my 'bosom.' Not dirty boy!
Atheists who use critical thinking are smart as a whip! But, some of them do push the 'envelope' for lack of compassion. A thing near and dear to this world we exist in.
I don't think in those terms of either group being persecuted. Because, I am not 'scored' by my Christian devotion with my friends, family, and work-places. I can take people or leave them, as it is. I think the Atheists would be the most persecuted, though I do not have data to back that up!
Absolutely! I was too lazy to find it...
Lots of believers are a bit fanatical... even when their God commands them otherwise.
"Belief" does not ensure reason. Sometimes it kinda seems to preclude it.
Such people often adopt the name of the faith they are closest to. I call myself a Christian because I know a bit about His teachings, and I think they're pretty good. (I don't think much of all the stuff that has accreted since the crucifixion.)
He Himself said other paths are possible.
That's probably true. But just as gnostic theists are often much noisier than agnostic theists... gnostic theists are also ofter much noisier than their agnostic brethren.
Unless I'm badly mistaken, there is no Biblical text that defines "Christian".
The various Creeds were derived long after the crucifixion. Personally, I do not consider any of them valid.
IMNAAHO, a Christian is someone who honestly tries to follow Christ's One Commandment: Love one another.
(Sadly, that means that many, many self-proclaimed Christians... are not.)
Oh! There are Mods??
They had comments sections. I don't know what the first platform was, but now it's Facebook. But while the article can regularly contain disparaging remarks about atheists, comments disrespectful of Christians or Christianity are removed. I believe the column I'm thinking of is now closed to Facebook comments, period. So the pastor who authors it can insult atheists (and does), but nobody can respond. I doubt an atheist would be allowed on as a guest columnist.
Unless I'm badly mistaken, there is no Biblical text that defines "Christian"
It was a poor choice of wording I admit. I suppose a better way to put it would be a Christian who earnestly believes all the biblical stories attributed to the Christ figure. Born of a virgin, multiplier of food, walks on water, yada yada.
I agree with John: anything that distracts from Christ's central message, Love one another, is to be rejected..
Virgin birth, trinity, ... If Christ didn't teach it, Himself, then it is a distraction.
He preached against racism, for example.....
I am a liberal agnostic. I don't believe there is a god, but who am I to say there isn't.
Do you know of a gnostic atheist on NT? I do not, but it is easy to find gnostic theists.
LOL. Dog Poker - made more famous in the movie "The Accountant".
WOW - 37 comments between the one I replied to and my reply. That'll teach me to have te nerve to sleep.
I haven't checked IDs lately.
I'm trying to remember the name of the guy who used to get really excited when I tried to explain that evidence cannot sway faith. Other than he, I can't think of any blatant cases.
TiG, I am going to 'address' this to your comment - yet I mean it for the 'room.' This thread is land-ing in a rut. And, the rut becomes its own norm. Nothing much new can be gleamed in the rut; nothing good can develop while in the rut, and in the rut limited 'growth' is encouraged. Worse, people can get 'brutalized' in the rut.
People, friends, and commenters please stay in the center of this thread and fight the urge to retreat to the extreme corners of it!
(Now I will go on reading down this thread and all other comments.)
Is that a fair comparison, Hal? Are are you taking liberty to be comical? For example, if God is (only) living in the mind of millions of humans for thousands of years that is more than one could state is happening with a cheeseburger buried on Pluto (for one would first have to ponder how an Earth cow arrived there!).
Hal, you wrote this:
Hal, following (the model above) are you a Gnostic-Atheist?
Actually, no man has seen God face-to-face (though it is biblically recorded that Moses would come away with a shine to his complexion from standing in the presence of God). Jesus, a physical man born of a woman, was God in flesh, but only Peter, James, and John him transfigured. Paul wrote: 'Now we see through a mirror darkly.' Paraphrase of some interesting happening. He continued: "But then, we will see you clearly (in whole, sum).' (Paraphrase.)
Hebrews says we hold faith as a blessed tangible (with the adjoining input of a 'seal' from Spirit) without certainty as we awake 'that great day when all will be revealed.' (paraphrased) for certainty is not what we have now. Definitely not certainty.
You went there. And it may be a fact, though I have not searched it out. Have you, Hal? Since you are willing to bet on it - is your bet a sure thing?
Implicit in your statement is assent to being Gnostic-Atheist. You know that there is no God/s to keep religions in the mind and spirit of humanity, how come?
Thank you. Good point. I shall not run from it. I see it happening too. Again, I admit I honestly don't know what there is to kill people over if it is true that the overall message of the Bible and Gospel is peace, love, and walking in Spirit (while have fleshly bodies).
I better see your concern. The best rendering I have found that speaks to my heart (mind/spirit) comes from Paul: 'As much as it lies in you keep peace with all people you encounter.' (Paraphrased.) That, is so important to me that allows me to sit in the company of 'saints and sinners' and yet know my own worth, be bold, and confident because I mean each and every other person well.
I read about the history of violence. I watch movies on the subject of religious and cult violence. I see the Westboro Baptist Church 'protest.' And, I wag my head through it all. Some (many, many) Believers do have a lot of work to do on themselves for the attitudes and actions they take in the name of God.
I can.
CB, I appreciate your desire to make peace, but this seed was about an extreme view leading to religious persecution, the perpetrator of which likely thinks of himself as being entirely in the right.
It is therefore entirely appropriate to discuss the extremes here.
A subtlety you might have missed. A person can be convinced that there is no god, but as long at that individual holds that s/he might be wrong, then that individual is agnostic, not gnostic.
Gnostics hold that their views are 100% correct. A gnostic theist does not even accept the possibility that their god does not exist. A gnostic atheist, similarly, does not allow the possibility of a god. Both are irrational positions.
The agnostics (agnostic theist and agnostic atheist) are rational positions (in principle and in the abstract) because in both cases the individual recognizes that they are not omniscient and thus could be wrong.
In a joking and serious spirit : Watch Out Ahead :
Ye Old BOG
I will do my best to steer clear of that thing while commenting. (Big Grin.)
I knew this already TiG, and thank you for the refresher, nevertheless. However, I am addressing Hal because of what he wrote @10.1.26 and enhanced @10.1.35 respectively. I wonder if I can 'sound' him out on it?
Is that a fair comparison, Hal?
You can’t prove a negative, plain and simple. Asking for proof that something exists is perfectly legitimate logic. Asking for proof that something does not exist is illogical, no matter if it is Bigfoot, a cheeseburger on Pluto, or god. Faith in existence is no more of a defense for god than any other countless figments of the imagination.
As far as what kind of atheist am I, I really don’t put much thought into that. Am I worried one iota about being wrong in the end though? Absolutely not.
It’s just a hunch, but I’d be willing to bet ten bucks he does not identify as an atheist.
I just thought you would have an opinion about something about yourself. Seeing that you are surely making a declaration of some kind about God.
Hal implicitly noted that he is an agnostic atheist:
A gnostic atheist claims, with certainty, that no god could possibly exist.
An intuition? And you are putting good money on it? Why not make it a statement? Just saying.
Then Hal should be able to comment for [Hal] self, my friend TiG. Please allow him time to do so.
Statistics support Hal's supposition.
And I can comment on Hal's comment.
My comment does not prevent Hal from typing.
Noted. I will wait for Hal's additional comment now.
I just thought you would have an opinionabout something about yourself. Seeing that you are surely making a declaration of some kind about God.
Stop thinking so hard. Leprechauns don’t exist, and neither does god in my world. It’s a simple as that, and I don’t need to drill down on my atheism label to appease anyone who thinks a god somehow does has more validity than a leprechaun.
It is not hard for me at all!
Hal, that's a dodge. You did not dodge or plead for silence on your statements about god/s and you continue to be 'vocal' about it.
Declare yourself. Gnostic Atheist or something else? The statements you have made up to this point lean towards Gnostic Atheist. Be explicit and explain your position on this. . . I, we, want to better understand.
This is easy to determine. All you need do is ask Hal this question:
Hal, do you accept the possibility of a sentient creator of the universe?
Simple.
The gnostic atheist would claim with certainty that no sentient creator could possibly exist.
The agnostic atheist would recognize the possibility but likely note not being convinced that any such entity exists.
@10.1.63!
Perhaps the gentleman's time has 'expired'? Moving on.
Of course there are some people on this very website that might disagree with that statement...LOL!
This just in. Their "god" and 3 other coaches have been ousted.
Deservedly fired.
Then judgement has been rendered. They should not have done this. Now, the young man has to be made 'whole' as well.
Good. Thanks for the update.
It was just on my local news.
I understand.
While the belief itself is stupid, what the coaches did is even dumber.
all the guys I ever knew never kept kosher, maybe it's regional. gary went to temple every week and worked every sabbath night I knew him. I expressed shock to him for a breakfast choice after a night of debauchery once. his response to me after sarcastically looking around the restaurant was "do you see my mom here? fuck that noise"
Some day I am going to find a Kosher shop and buy some meat to see how it might differ in taste from non Kosher.
LOL. Kosher pork tastes identical to non-Kosher pork.
At the time that the ruling was made, pork was prone to passing on disease to humans who ate it. However, that's a rarity today, so keeping Kosher is just a continuing custom/tradition that is followed mostly by the Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Jews. I can't speak for Muslims.