Civil War (Or, Who Do We Think We Are)

slate.com /culture/2021/06/civil-war-documentary-peacock-juneteenth-history.htmlA New Civil War

Documentary Shows the Limits of Letting Everyone Talk

Not every opinion is worth hearing out.


A man protests the removal of a statue of Jefferson Davis. Nelson Walker III/Boynton Films/Peacock
Documentarian Rachel Boynton’s Civil War (or, Who Do We Think We Are) is the latest well-meaning attempt to get to the bottom of our great national disagreement over the meaning of the events of 1861–65. Watching it, I realized how completely done I am with the last decade of polite liberal discourse about the Civil War, Reconstruction, and slavery. I say this as a frequent participant: I am just not sure what all this talking has done.

“This is a film about storytelling,” the movie, which is now streaming on Peacock, begins—an observation that lost its punch long ago. Okay! Put aside the fact that all history is, to varying degrees, “about storytelling”—how could it not be?—and grant the idea that the history of the Civil War has some particular claim to narrative indeterminacy. Now what the hell do we do when some people in our country want to tell a self-pitying, wrong-headed “story,” one that shows the deep lack of empathy in their hearts? One that displays the same racist lack of fellow-feeling that their ancestors once used to justify separating parents from children? That’s what I want to know.

Maybe it’s because the utter imbalance between the two “sides” is so obvious to everyone now, after the past decade or so of heightened public conversation about Black history, that this documentary feels so unsatisfying. For a “film about storytelling,” this movie has curiously little narrative drive. Instead, there are a lot of characters who appear for short amounts of time to deliver declarations about the history in question. Heartbreakingly earnest Black students! Recalcitrant white Sons of Confederate Veterans! Charismatic Black historians of slavery! (Kellie Carter Jackson is particularly magnetic.) White farmers who, bafflingly, blame the “federal government” for the recent loss of their land! Black protestors! Boomer Massachusetts liberals at an all-white evening discussion group about the history of Reconstruction! Mississippi legislators defending their “heritage” flag! Yale historian David Blight, giving one of his typically wonderful lectures! The gang is, literally, all here.

That’s fine. But some of these people are right, and some of them are just wrong. To her credit, Boynton gets some of the white interviewees to say things that had me infuriated. “There’s a lot of talk about reparations for slaves,” the farmer says. “When Abraham Lincoln emancipated the slaves, my great-great-grandfather, he didn’t get paid for them!” But I don’t need to know that “story” exists. I’ve seen this kind of weak-headed apologia over and over on the Internet. When the documentary lands on a group of BLM activists who sing at a white counter-protestor “Get the fuck out of New Orleans/ Get the fuck out of New Orleans”—or a Black protestor who, when asked by Boynton about “Southern pride,” quickly says “Fuck the South. Fuck Southern pride”—I cheered. The time for hearing them out is long over and done.

Besides the moments where Black students talk about elders in their family who don’t want to discuss slavery—an interesting counterpoint to the official white liberal line that we “must” talk about those times, in order to exorcise the poison—the brief glimpses of history classrooms were where I wanted more of this documentary, not less. History classes are the only places in the country where diverse collections of people talk about race day after day, in a systematic way: not while segregated into interest groups, as with the Sons of Confederate Veterans or any number of liberal anti-racist book clubs; not as momentary attempt at “enrichment,” as you might do with a day at a historical site or museum. History classrooms are, as one teacher in the film says in describing a difficult discussion with a student, “where the juice is.” The recent run of anti-“CRT” laws passed by GOP-led state legislatures further proves that this is true. Why are they so scared, one might ask? They know.

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One particular episode—an eighth-grade class at Boston Latin School, a public magnet school in Massachusetts that has a diverse student population—had a flow to it that the rest of the film sorely lacked. The instructor, an older white woman, apparently a teaching veteran, with the command of the classroom that this status brings with it, is working on a lesson about the lead-up to the Civil War with a crowded classroom. One student in the class, a young man with a ghost of a mustache, keeps speaking up. First, on the causes of the war. “I notice there seems to be a common idea that the Civil War was totally about slavery. I’m gonna disagree with that,” he says. “The South did want to leave the Union because of slavery, but the issue of the Civil War was keeping the South in the Union. So slavery wasn’t the total issue.”

Later, as they talk about Reconstruction and Jim Crow, he gets more and more frustrated, twisting in his chair as the kids sitting around him laugh embarrassedly: Here he goes again. “I just think talking about this is really not helpful,” he says. “What it does is it puts people in an unproductive mindset, it makes white people feel guilty, and it makes Black people feel like victims.” Quickly, a Black classmate jumps in: “If you’re treated differently because of something you can’t change, why wouldn’t you be a victim? You don’t have to talk about something for it to be a certain way.”

Behind the scenes, talking to this contrarian student and his teacher, Boynton draws out how the teacher is trying so hard not to “squash this child,” as she puts it. “He’s bringing some sincere and rigorous—the word he used was ‘logic’—to this problem” of Black people’s status in American society,” she says. “But he doesn’t have an answer when I say, ‘What’s the reason, if it’s not systemic racism?’”

This rich episode takes up only a small fraction of the screen time of the documentary. What happened to this student, after the filmmaker was gone? Did the teacher, and his fellow students, ever convince him to look again at his beliefs? Or did he dig in? Let any future filmmakers looking to explore the American conversation about the Civil War take note: The big-picture ground has been covered. A teaching workforce that’s almost 80 percent white is working through this history with diverse groups of students every day. In every classroom, every year, there’s a story. Get thee to the schools, and bring your cameras with you.

What’s the reason, if it’s not systemic racism?’”

systematic racism is the new “God’s will.” It explains everything and nothing.

Sean, in this film a half a dozen or so people who are interviewed say they want to fly the confederate flag because it represents their "heritage."  In 2021 everyone knows that the confederate flag represents the attempted preservation of slavery. 

What the hell is wrong with these people? 

We need the 1619 Project or something like it to tell people the truth. 

In this movie one of the experts says that in 1860 "95%" of the US population, north and south, was racist.  

That does mean that America was a racist country at some point, , doesnt it?

Systemic racism is just an idea, not a real thing

That is so very not true, but you should still be able to see pyramids from that river in Egypt!

In this movie one of the experts says that in 1860 "95%" of the US population, north and south, was racist.  

No way can that opinion be credibly verified

Show us the proof, instead of parroting unsupported bullshit.

Sentencing disparities for various narcotics and incarceration rates generally. Those are the more obvious examples of racism that had been built into the legal system a long time ago and takes time to filter out. 

Greg, the average household wealth of blacks is something like 1/10th that of whites. How do you explain that? 

There is some criticism from "the left" towards this show apparently because there are segments where a confederate flag or confederate monument defender (or a slavery minimizer as a couple people in the film are) are allowed to say their piece without the interviewer contradicting them much. 

That didnt bother me. Let people make jackasses out of themselves, and let everyone see it. 

There is a guy from Mississippi in this film that says the blacks talk about reparations but what about him? His great grand daddy lost all his slaves when Lincoln freed them and the government didnt give him a penny for them. The same guy says the outcome of the Civil War (the south being defeated) was worse than slavery. He is a middle aged white guy of course. 

Good documentary movie. It is a little slow here and there, but I recommend it. 

Peacock is a free streaming channel with an option to pay a fee to see the shows without commercials.  You can get it on a smart tv app or on a pc or laptop. 

Not every opinion is worth hearing out.

That's the problem, here on NT. 

Ah the old of only the conservatives would go away so we could truly have our own echo chamber instead of an 80% one….

You really should re-read, before hitting the "Post Your Comment" button. 

Not every opinion is worth hearing out.

That's the problem, here on NT. 

As it is on many other "well moderated" Social Media sites!

The idea is that every user deserves to be respected-- and everyone's opinion deserves to be "respected".

Which is why I often have a problem with Social Media sites--- I don't feel that everyone on them deserves to be respected. A few people are not well informed. Others are just overly gullible fools and post toal nonsense.. And some are just downright nasty individuals.

Online, as in the "real" world--- some people don't deserve respect. 

(Which can create a bit of a problem for those users who are truly aware of what's going on).

Racism and racists do not deserve respect. Authoritarianism and authoritarians do not deserve respect. They are welcome on NT. 

The Fascists have a great rostrum, here on NT.

I don't know what to do. If I seed a wide variety of topics, I give cover for the Fascists. If I don't seed at all, I'm abandoning the field. I've been limiting myself to strictly anti-fascist seeds... but my guess is that members have already reached the point of "already know; don't need to read". 

I think we are headed in the direction of a reckoning about race in America.

What kind of reckoning?

How come none of the CRT advocates want to hear this guy’s opinion or consider it?

His story is akin to "how can America be racist if Barack Obama was elected president?" 

This man can have two medical degrees and there can still be systemic racism. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

How come none of the CRT advocates want to hear this guy’s opinion or consider it?

CRT posits that because of our history of racism, racism is embedded in our laws and public policy, it is still affecting outcomes for people of color, and we should look into that. We don’t talk about people like this guy because he’s ranting about what he believes CRT to be rather than what it is. He has [possibly] succeeded and that’s great, but it’s also anecdotal; i.e. of no significance. If there’s nothing affecting the outcomes for people of color, then why are their incomes, wealth, home ownership,… so much lower than whites? Why are their incarceration rates for drugs so much higher than whites when their usage rate is the same?

Here’s a recent example: A friend’s dad decided to take a walk in Morningside Park on a holiday. The south side of the park is the Upper West Side (well off white), the north side is Harlem. Whites were drinking openly on the south side where his walk started, as he got to the north side, blacks were also drinking (out of bagged bottles) and being hassled by the police. Exactly the same situation south/north, different result.

His story is akin to "how can America be racist if Barack Obama was elected president?" 

So we should dismiss his experience and his perspective?

This man can have two medical degrees and there can still be systemic racism.

You can't just declare that. You have to explain it. He is walking, talking proof that there is not systemic racism keeping black people from being doctors. Obama (and many others) provide the same proof for political leaders.

That doesn't mean there is no racism or racists in the world. Those things can exist without the problem being systemic.

he’s ranting

I have noticed that very often when people don't like what someone else is saying, they describe their speech as a "rant." It's a call to dismiss a voice.

He has [possibly] succeeded

Possibly? What . . . you don't believe him? You clearly don't want to believe him. I can guess why.

and that’s great, but it’s also anecdotal; i.e. of no significance.

Something being anecdotal does not mean it has no significance. You are breaking your back trying to come up with reasons to disregard this person, his experience, and his opinion. We can just as easily take anyone's story of racism or other type of injustice and dismiss it as "anecdotal," but that would be absurd. 

Do you want to see his degree? Would you even believe it to be a real document? If not, how is that any different than say, Trump dismissing Obama's birth certificate? Your words are like that of a birther, but for black doctors.

There are tens of thousands of African American medical doctors in the US . You want to dismiss them as anecdotal, as well?

By the way, they happen to be underrepresented according to their demographic, but then so are white doctors.

The real point here, is that you have to look at these people with your eyes open and your mind to match. It's absurd to observe that there are nearly 50,000 black medical doctors in this country while simultaneously insisting there is some kind of racial caste system.

The video depicts a person who is actually ranting about a non-existent future based on his belief in misrepresentations of CRT. On the other hand, my example, the incarceration rate, Eric Garner, George Floyd, and God knows how many others are events which did happen and continue to happen, likely because of systemic racism. Do you really believe that the continued ignorance and inaction put forward by the video is a path to a solution, or would a better response be a more critical examination of our system?

You see, I'll listen to people who are actually trying to solve the problem. I'm not a CRT expert; I don't know if it's on the path to a solution. But, espousing ignorance and inaction, using meaningless, anecdotal statements to support inaction aren't going to get me on board. I'm not trying to diss his accomplishment(s), just pointing out that they are irrelevant. The outcomes for people of color, in pretty much every arena, are far poorer than those for whites.

Some people cherry-pick the very rare item, to represent all of reality.

That's madness, of course. 

It's up to you, whether you engage them. History suggests that any such engagement is utterly pointless: they are and will remain untouched by reality. But if you have time to waste...

It's up to you, whether you engage them.

Perhaps, and perhaps I paint with too broad a brush, but the Republicans are the party of a vast number nonsense cultural war bullshit that’s destroying us. Their number one TV pundit, Tucker Carlson, has an entire show based on tilting at windmills. Whether it’s the war on Christmas, the war on Christianity, vaccines, BLM, Antifa, cancel culture, promoting the Big Lie, or most recently the nonsense about the FBI tricking Trump supporters into attacking the capitol, immeasurable damage is being done to our republic. What should we do?

He is walking, talking proof that there is not systemic racism..... .  Obama (and many others) provide the same proof for political leaders.

No, he's not . 

Some people cherry-pick the very rare item, to represent all of reality.

Like George Floyd?

The video depicts a person who is actually ranting about a non-existent future based on his belief in misrepresentations of CRT.

Doubling down on prejudice doesn’t make it any less prejudicial.

Do you really believe that the continued ignorance and inaction put forward by the video

I don’t see the video promoting ignorance or inaction. In fact, I would say it promotes action. The man tells the story of how he chose to take action to improve himself and it worked. You’re incapable of the “critical examination” you claim to endorse if you just disregard all points of view.

Some people cherry-pick the very rare item, to represent all of reality. That's madness, of course. 

You mean like when 1 police encounter out of 100,000 results in an unfairly brutal outcome for the person contacted and the response in to shut down the police department? How about when people when try to equate police chasing runaway slaves 160 years ago with every modern cop? 

There’s plenty of cherry picking to go around, but if you can’t admit that, then engagement is “utterly pointless.” Talk about being “untouched by reality.” 

perhaps I paint with too broad a brush

Indeed.

OK JR, please describe the systemic racism preventing black people from becoming doctors or politicians.

Doubling down on prejudice doesn’t make it any less prejudicial.

How is pointing out that what he believes CRT to be is incorrect prejudice? How is drawing the conclusion that a future based on an incorrect understanding of what CRT is is likely wrong prejudice?

You’re incapable of the “critical examination” you claim to endorse if you just disregard all points of view.

His point is that we shouldn't examine the system -- i.e. think about CRT. CRT does not point to white or black people as bad, it simply says that this country's history of racism is embedded in this system. When voting rights and ciivil rights passed in the 60s, we improved the system. It took a few years to notice that redlining was another systemic problem. Why is it so hard to accept that we should examine the system since outcomes still differ so much.

I discount him because he's a single data point that I don't even know is real. We should study people like him to verify their success and to see why they were able to succeed, there are likely other actions we can take.

So we should dismiss his experience and his perspective?

No, but his story doesn't discount or dismiss the millions of other black Americans who do continue to experience discrimination and systemic racism. Oppression can come in many forms and just because one person isn't experiencing it due to their circumstances doesn't mean millions of others aren't.

He is walking, talking proof that there is not systemic racism keeping black people from being doctors.

I don't recall hearing that systemic racism was "keeping black people from being doctors". The facts show substantial inequality in the justice system, continued inequality in many job markets.

This mans claim is much like if I said "They say violent crime rates have risen in my State and nationally, but in my town violent crime rates have fallen, so how can they claim they are on the rise?".

Obviously a single individuals experiences can be different and not conform to the general trend others are seeing. His anecdotal personal experience does not prove systemic racism doesn't exist. The fact is there are some places where systemic racism is quite apparent and other places where it's hard to notice or find which is a good thing. Progress is being made in many places around America, but other places have some work to do.

That doesn't mean there is no racism or racists in the world. Those things can exist without the problem being systemic.

While that is true, that doesn't mean there aren't signs of systemic racism. Of course there are going to be racists and racism, it's been less than 60 years since we had majorities of whites in some States claiming their racial superiority or their objection to integration an equal rights. We have many people alive today who lived through the turmoil and racial violence of the 1950's and 1960's. To claim there is no longer any systemic racism simply because that's what you want to believe contrary to the evidence based on anecdotal evidence is pure stupidity.

How is pointing out that what he believes CRT to be is incorrect prejudice?

For one thing, you haven’t done that. All you have done is declare him to be ignorant without making a supporting argument for that claim. Instead, you have done everything to dismiss his experience and opinion solely on the grounds that he doesn’t endorse CRT. He could be a bona fide expert on CRT. You have no idea.

His point is that we shouldn't examine the system

I don’t recall him saying that we shouldn’t examine the system. He is making the very straightforward point that things in America are not irretrievably and relentlessly racist - that there is not some system of laws or caste holding back racial minorities. That opportunity is there for anyone.

His very reasonable support for this claim is to point out that he - a black man - can be a physician - something that would not have been possible for previous generations, but is now common. That speaks to improvement, not crisis.

You keep trying to treat him like his situation is some kind of one-off to be ignored. But it’s not. There are thousands of black doctors.

Why is it so hard to accept that we should examine the system since outcomes still differ so much.

I don’t know anyone who claims that things cannot be improved or that there is no racism. But CRT advocates try to characterize anyone who doesn’t buy in 100% to their agenda as making this claim. It’s dishonest. CRT advocates currently tend to act as if no progress has been made. They claim a systemic problem without identifying it. And if you question that claim, you’re racist. People are tired of that ideological bullying, and some of those tired people happen to be black.

I discount him because he's a single data point that I don't even know is real.

I have linked to a source that shows there are almost 50,000 black physicians in this country as of 2019. They are real, successful people, not “data points.”

We should study people like him to verify their success

I bet you aren’t that skeptical of people who claim to be victims of racism.

We have many people alive today who lived through the turmoil and racial violence of the 1950's and 1960's. To claim there is no longer any systemic racism simply because that's what you want to believe contrary to the evidence based on anecdotal evidence is pure stupidity.

The children of those who denied blacks a place at the lunch counter or sicced dogs on them at civil rights demonstrations are in their 50's or 60's today, and have their own children and grandchildren. We are no more than three generations away from a group that enforced Jim Crow racism. The idea that this would all be changed in three generations is just silly. 

There are many many millions of white racists in this country. 

And yet there are some on this forum and elsewhere who seem to think that whites are the real victims, and whats wrong with "white pride" anyway? 

By denying that he is oppressed, this man is enacting whiteness.

How can we possibly fight racism when black people won’t do what they’re told?

twitter

I loved listening to that guy, but I kinda wish it weren't edited.

Agreed on all you say. 

Also, they are impervious to rational argument. So arguing with them is a waste of time. The only hope for the future - a slim one - is to crush them electorally over and over. 

1 police encounter out of 100,000

From what dark place did you pull that bullshit stat? 

... there are some on this forum and elsewhere who seem to think... 

The key word is "seem". I doubt that many actually believe the crap they spout. They're just working on a long-term Big Lie. 

It's hypothetical. I figured that might seem obvious, but I guess not.

Anyway, if that's your only reaction to my comment, then I guess I should assume you either agree with the rest of it or are simply unable to argue against it.

I do not argue with TrumpTrueBelievers or Flat-Earthers. 

Your statement is a non sequitur.

No

How is pointing out that what he believes CRT to be is incorrect prejudice?

For one thing, you haven’t done that...

If didn't have to do it. The first two sentences of my OP - CRT posits that because of our history of racism, racism is embedded in our laws and public policy, it is still affecting outcomes for people of color, and we should look into that. We don’t talk about people like this guy because he’s ranting about what he believes CRT to be rather than what it is.

His first sentence of the video - "Critical Race Theory, which is pretty much teaching kids how to hate each other, how to dislike each other". It gets worse from there. He is ignorant of CRT and is regurgitating conservative talking points, whether or not he endorses CRT is irrelevant. This thread is about CRT and his rant isn't.

But CRT advocates try to characterize anyone who doesn’t buy in 100% to their agenda as making this claim. It’s dishonest. CRT advocates currently tend to act as if no progress has been made.

False. Since black outcomes are on average so different, there are obviously some problem(s). CRT is a mechanism to examine one very likely possibility. Before 1965 their inability to succeed was largely caused by systemic mechanisms. As I indicated, we have removed additional mechanisms since then. Maybe we're not done?

I have linked to a source that shows there are almost 50,000 black physicians in this country as of 2019. They are real, successful people, not “data points.”

Him having medical degrees is irrelevant, other black people having them are also irrelevant because outcomes overall are much worse than for whites in almost all areas. We are looking for the causes of this discrepancy. CRT is a good possibility given our history.

His first sentence of the video - "Critical Race Theory, which is pretty much teaching kids how to hate each other, how to dislike each other".

That’s a serious concern. Why dismiss it out of hand? Listening to him, I don’t think he is trying to say that’s what CRT set out to do, but he is saying that is the effect it has. So whether or not CRT set out to make things worse, it may very well do that. We should all care about that.

CRT is a mechanism to examine one very likely possibility.

Twice you allow that CRT is only a possible cause for a given situation. I have not seen anyone equivocate like that. 

That’s a serious concern. Why dismiss it out of hand?

He has chosen to get his information from a nonsense source. We should not make decisions based on silliness. Should we consider halting vaccinations because some people believe they are becoming magnetic? I also think this fear is unwarranted. Gen Z is the first nonwhite majority generation. They have been completely connected across the planet their entire lives. From what I read and what I've observed they do not evidence concerns with other races or the LGBT like Boomers and Gen X. The Gen Z groups I see are often mixed race and even in rural Pa, where my family comes from, they simply accept LGBT people without hesitation. I think trying to teach them to hate each other would be a big fail.

equivocate

That's not the right word. I am not being ambiguous, concealing anything, or not committing. As I said, given our history of racism CRT seems likely to bear fruit, but how could I ever claim that it is the only possibility?

Here's why I think it is attacked so vehemently: Republicans are the Ignorance Я Us party. They defund and threaten government agencies that want to study climate change, gun violence, ... They don't want an official agency coming out with actionable information on these problems, it would disrupt the status quo and enrage their benefactors/base. CRT is incredibly dangerous in that respect. Even if its study happens outside the gov't, if it finds systemic racism it won't be possible to ignore it as easily as the other problems. Racism is one of those things that doesn't fly anymore and it would force a change in the status quo.

However, I really don't understand why anyone would want to teach it to children. I see it as one path toward increasing justice that should be pursued by experts. 

He has chosen to get his information from a nonsense source.

I don’t what information or source you are referring to.

I think trying to teach them to hate each other would be a big fail.

Again, he doesn’t seem to be claiming that CRT is trying to teach them to hate each other - just that it ends up doing that. His message is straightforward: Tell young people of all backgrounds that they can achieve anything that they want. His concern is that if you tell black kids that white people and American institutions will hold them back, then that will end up making them hate white people unnecessarily and prompt them to decide that there is no point in even trying to succeed.