What are your thoughts? That's everybody, no censorship from me. 

at least the perp wasn't unarmed this time. justified. I'm impressed with the PD that made this video for the public using both the bodycam and surveillance footage. cops are people too. I have friends and family in law enforcement. they're all nuts, but who am I to judge. I used to really enjoy playing poker with guys that had taken basic psychology and body language interpretation training, and think that everyone who doesn't wear blue doesn't know some of that shit. $$$

Lol, not exactly the lesson I was hoping to drive home here. I suck at poker btw, I don't hold back emotion for too long, outside of a professional setting. 

what happens when you get one of those adrenaline jolts is what matters. cops are human too.

Control and thinking on your feet. 

I don't hold back emotion for too long

Say it ain't so!

Lol, like you have seen me just go unfiltered. 

Yes. It applies to many professions but mostly law enforcement

My Father was a Fort Worth TX police officer for 15 years, and a Texas Ranger for 3 years. During the 15 years my Father served on the police force, we never knew when he left for work if we would ever see him alive again. And we were blessed that he came home safely at the end of his shift.

But, we also knew that being a police officer was what he wanted to be in his heart, and that he took his oath as an officer seriously. He was proud of his 15 years as part of the PD, and when he moved on to the Texas Rangers he had a good record to prove him worthy of acceptance.

Being a police officer today is even more dangerous than what my Father had to deal with on a daily basis. And was even more dangerous as a Texas Ranger. But, he was proud of his time spent in both areas of LE.

I wish you good luck in your new choice of employment, and hope that your time as a police officer will be safe and sound. The are a lot of people who will depend on you to help and protect them in their time of need.

Be safe and be proud.

I won't let you down. 

It was justified.  If he had put the little one down they wouldn't have had to shoot him.   The cops didn't escalate the situation.  They did everything right

Even if he put the kid down but still had the weapon.... If he moves he is getting shot. 

Well done, Phoenix PD.  And special kudos to the officer who was trying to calm the crying baby.  It's hard to imagine what that little boy experienced, and I'm glad he's young enough that he won't remember it.  It's amazing to hear the officer go immediately from fight-or-flight to pitching his voice to appeal to the baby.

It's amazing to hear the officer go immediately from fight-or-flight to pitching his voice to appeal to the baby.

And that is what they have been trying to instill in us from day 1. I have the benefit of the USMC and combat deployments so I know what is coming and it isn't that big of a thing for me. The guy literally had to go from killing someone (yes, the dude did die) to comforting a small child in less than 15 seconds. IT IS FUCKING TOUGH to make that kind of transition. 

I have a couple, even a father and son ( Both Mopar nuts  with Chargers avatar in the old man's garage).

Very very difficult job.

Not easy, that is for sure. It won't be easy, but some of us have to do it. 

Charger was an Auxiliary Deputy Sheriff years ago,   It is a tough job and getting harder. 

I think Thrawn will be a good officer and wish him well 

I am going to try. So to the rest of you, don't fuck up lol.

Does this mean I can't do 85 in a 55 any  more?

Lol, we just learned about the very specific statue in Arizona that I can cite you with in a 55mph zone. And ONLY in a 55mph zone for some fucking reason (state legislature).

Will I go to jail...handcuffs and everything?

Stop trying to tempt the poor man 

You think he gets excited about handcuffs?

I think you do   And maybe him, too.

It's Friday, ready to go home. Just trying to stir something up before I leave

Wow, a lot of assumptions about my sexuality based on me becoming a cop lol. Sry Trout, you're fucked. 

huh, I had you figured for a combative DUI arrest if anything...

I apologize heartedly. Please forgive?

I'm a pretty easy going drunk

Hopefully you can change the fraternal order of racist bootlickers from the inside out.

Not the case. There are some bad apples to be sure, but just about everyone I met are stand up folks. May lean a bit conservative but are absolutely dedicated to the US Constitution. 

We are you guys. 

We are you guys.

I hope you still have that attitude after a couple of years. A lot of cops seem to have the attitude that they are not "you guys." At least, it's depressingly easy to find vids on YouTube of cops that either don't know what the law is on the simplest things or they don't care. They seem to slip into this mindset of "I have a do-whatever-I-want badge" and just trample all over a person's rights and treat them like cattle while they go on a fishing expedition. I've no doubt you've seen some of them. 

Don't mean to come across as anti-police. I'm emphatically not. I wish you the best of luck and stay safe. 

I don't think anyone disputes that sometimes cops need to shoot people. And that it is a very dangerous job. I am glad we have police protecting us. 

The controversy comes when police go outside the bounds of good procedure. 

Yesterday there were two stories about police shootings on the news here in Chicago.  One was a story from a working class black suburb, Dolton, where fast food employees called the police because a woman was banging on the drive through window a half hour after the joint closed. They could see she had a gun. The police came and tried to get the occupants of the car to come out , the passenger did, but the female driver refused, saying she was naked under a housecoat. One of the cops reached into the car to try and grab her but she sped off, dragging the officer outside the car. The other cop started firing , hitting the 19 yr old driver, killing her.  The cop who was dragged is in the hospital in serious condition. 

The other story was about a female Chicago cop who shot a guy who was trying to run away from her in the back. Her and her partner were subduing the man, who was being arrested for riding the subway train perched between two cars. Although this can be done relatively safely, it is illegal. The man claimed he was paranoid about riding inside the car, but the cops, rightfully it seems, tried to arrest him anyway. He broke away from the cops and started to run up a stairway towards the street level when the female cop shot him in the back. He was unarmed. 

One good shooting, one bad shooting. 

We need to disarm the police and arm them with crime whistles. It works in Europe.

No, we need to stop shooting unarmed people in the back. 

If you had to wear a polyester uniform all day long you'd shoot people in the back too.

You don't know the entire situation, which was kinda the point of my seed. Although looking back i know a few ways I could make it better. 

If you found yourself in danger from a bad guy, you would want a LEO to use a whistle instead of a gun.  Good luck with that, if you survived that is.

And that is it.

You are heroes, we Back the Blue

You are heroes, we Back the Blue

... when they're not beating them with flagpoles and spraying them with bear spray.

Only a few far out extremists not a part of our coalition participated in such repugnant behavior. The left openly supported BLM and Antifa and what they did to so many of our blue around the country.  

Ahhhhhhhhh........

Thanks Husker...

But fuck off with that one. You don't get to say shit about supporting the blue after you excusal for Jan 6. Fuck you.

John Russell wrote: "He broke away from the cops and started to run up a stairway towards the street level when the female cop shot him in the back. He was unarmed."

Is that exactly the way it happened? Sometimes breaking away and running and turning and reaching around can end up badly for the resistor. Sometimes these explanations by the anti-cop media tend to be a tad lacking in facts 

Anyway, good luck and stay safe in your new career Thrawn.

[Deleted] thanks. I will do my best for all of you. 

#1) The guy resisted arrest; no matter what his attorney or he says. He didn't allow himself to be handcuffed. He forced his way back to his feet- seems he injured both officers in doing so; as the article stated "both officers were treated at the hospital and released".

#2) The officers tried several non-lethal means such as pepper spray and tasers; but they had no affect on the guy. Wonder what drugs he was on to be able to ignore that? Pepper spray and tasers take down soldiers that are in shape and trained to deal with those things; the guy was big but didn't look in that type of shape. Though it is hard to tell because he was wearing bulky clothes.

#3) The video does not show what preceded the suspect resisting arrest. We only have the lawyers word that the suspect cooperated with police. I am pretty sure police don't take down people that are cooperating.

#4) Police don't normally tell you what you have done wrong until after they detain you. At least that is the way it worked during every traffic stop I have been involved in. The police ask for driver's license and registration then go back to check to make sure both are valid and there are no outstanding warrants. Once that is done then they tell you what you have done wrong and issue a ticket. In a case like this the first thing they would have done would have been to restrain the suspect. Thrawn can verify if this is accurate or not- I don't claim to be an expert; which means handcuffing. They would then get ID to check if there were any outstanding warrants, if everything checked out they would then tell the suspect what he did wrong and issue a citation. If it came back he had a warrant the suspect would be searched; and placed under arrest. 

#5) They should not have shot the suspect; but they shouldn't have allowed him to flee either. Firing their weapons in a situation with that many civilians around put everyone in danger. Yes, the suspect was close enough that they couldn't miss; but the shots caused a panic with people fleeing. That could have caused injuries among the public. Neither officer looked small. They should have been able to restrain the suspect through non lethal means. That points to insufficient training for both of them. That is both on the department and the officers themselves.

#6) They are dropping all charges against the suspect who was "carrying cocaine and an illegal amount of marijuana"; and it looks like both officers will lose their jobs and could face charges themselves. 

Which means it is just another fucked up day in the good Ole US of A.

She should be commended for shooting him in the hip from the front

and then in the butt.

Stupid ass is still alive, he's lucky.

Good luck on your training, Thrawn

I got it, boot camp lite, just my knees are 16 years older lol. 

Have you trained how to frisk yet?  I like a little extra tug, pinch and pull with my frisk.

Sorry Moose, gotta keep it professional. 

What if i tell you the drugs are hidden in my butt?  Do you have to glove up? Can we at least cuddle first?

Lol if you tell me that then I am going to put you in cuffs and you get a ride in the uncomfortable backseat to the hospital (local med facility) where they will probe your ass. And I will be sure to tell them that I saw you stuff it WAAAAAY up there. 

No cuddling lol, that is too personal. 

Bad move bro, I get car sick in the backseat. You know who has to clean that up don't ya?

Just having fun dude, good luck.

Sounds like a you problem if you do not disclose that to me before we leave. I may have to clean it, but it could take me a LONG time to do the paperwork and be ready to bring you in for an interview. 

That's what we had trustees at the jail for  

To my friends on the left, ease up.

Good point, but here's the thing.  I don't see anybody from NT's center or left speaking out against a justified shooting, which is what the video most definitely showed.  We're all in support of good cops.  There are a very few idiots who object to justified shootings, but they don't speak for the vast majority of us.  The right would have folks believe that they do.

I am just saying, hold off when it comes to sounding off on initial media reports. We do not have the whole story. On this one the story could have been "Phoenix PD Shot a black male suspect". and we on the left would have been all over it and bashing cops. But that isn't what the facts show.

I think most reserve judgment until the story comes out.  I'd like to think that I do.  Before I decide it was a bad cop, I try to find the story on several different sites, to see if they corroborate each other.  I look for video.  And I remember one time when I sided with the cops, UNTIL I saw video of the shooting, and it was clearly avoidable.

Just take is easy on us is all i am saying.

I learned long ago not to judge the acts of any LE until all the facts are in. What we may want to think happened and what actually happened could be two different scenarios.

As the saying goes, there are always two sides to every story. Prejudging before both sides have been heard could put someones life at stake. And it may even be yours. So make sure you get all the facts before pointing your finger of fault.

The 'you' in my comment is not directed at any individual, just generally speaking.

You nailed it. 

I am just saying, hold off when it comes to sounding off on initial media reports.

Yeah, because those are so accurate. They can't wait to tell us all about how the bad policeman shot another unarmed black person with lots of vid of people talking about how unjustified it was just as fast as they can stuff it into the news cycle, only to find out later it was totally justified. And even when they do manage to get to actual facts they still put it in a light that makes it seem as if they really didn't have to shoot. 

I have always said there were good cops and bad cops. I don't know where everyone gets this narrative that the left hates cops. It is bullshit only pushed by the right wing.

And yes there are bad cops. We had a woman cop that left her child in the back of her squad car while she was having an affair at a coworkers house and the child died in the heat.

Just because I point that out some will assume that I hate all cops   blah blah blah.

OK honest questions here. And if it matters to anyone, my dad was a cop for 28 years. I grew up with cops and have the highest respect for good cops. But perhaps because of that background, I don't have a lot of patience for cops who are bullies or think the gun is the first step to solving all problems.

So to my questions: Did all those cops need to pull their weapons and point them at the man? This might seem obvious, but when everything is obvious, we don't question and we don't ever change.

Consider the situation from the suspect's point of view. He's surrounded by cops, who he probably doesn't trust in the first place, and they're all pointing guns at him. Do you really think he believes that if he drops his gun everything will be ok? Is there a way this could have been deescalated? All cops did here was shout orders. 

For every situation like this, involving the shooting of a black man with a gun, there is another video of cops bending over backward to deescalate with a white man who has a gun. That's what the BLM is pissed about. Perhaps all these cops could have presented themselves more peacefully, while some other cops had guns aimed at him from a more hidden location (i.e. snipers) to protect the kid.

I'm not saying for sure that this guy could have been talked down. Maybe that was going to be impossible. But it doesn't look like anyone tried. This is the kind of basic policy reform that people are looking for from police. Not defunding, or anything like that. Just a nation of police officers that genuinely prioritizes not shooting people.

I don't have a lot of patience for cops who are bullies or think the gun is the first step to solving all problems.

They won't be with their agencies long. 

So to my questions: Did all those copsneedto pull their weapons and point them at the man? This might seem obvious, but when everything is obvious, we don't question and we don't ever change.

Fuck yes. Simple answer. 

Consider the situation from the suspect's point of view.

Not our job, at least not in this scenario. Here we have a hostage and a suspect who has a deadly weapon and has already demonstrated a willingness to use it. That's it. Priorities are rescue the hostage, protect bystanders/civilians, our personal safety, the suspect. 

Do you really think he believes that if he drops his gun everything will be ok? Is there a way this could have been deescalated? All cops did here was shout orders. 

Do you want to be the cop who tries to talk to him as he shoots the kid in the head and then points the gun at you? Fuck that. He either puts the weapon down or gets put down at this point. 

Perhaps all these cops could have presented themselves more peacefully, while some other cops had guns aimed at him from a more hidden location (i.e. snipers) to protect the kid.

And maybe I could have picked the winning lottery numbers. Didn't happen. Again, he was in the street, shooting randomly at passing vehicles, and had a hostage. The officers were 100% correct in showing up with weapons drawn, they were 100% correct in ordering him repeatedly to drop his weapon, and were 100% correct in shooting him when he refused those orders and once again pointed the weapon at a fucking 1 year old's head. 

But it doesn't look like anyone tried.

How hard would you try? The officers told him repeatedly to put the weapon down. He was given ample opportunity. 

his is the kind of basic policy reform that people are looking for from police. Not defunding, or anything like that. Just a nation of police officers that genuinely prioritizes not shooting people.

I get that. Trust me I do. And it is easy to Monday morning QB these things, but what would you have done in this situation? Answer: you have no fucking idea because you weren't there. From where I am sitting the officers handles the situation perfectly. Only thing that could have been done better is the one saying "hold up" should have NOT said that.

Why don't the last 20 seconds make the news?

Not our job, at least not in this scenario.

Maybe it should be. That’s what reform looks like. You change standard procedure into something different.

Here we have a hostage and a suspect who has a deadly weapon and has already demonstrated a willingness to use it.

Yeah, but he hadn’t actually demonstrated an intention to kill anyone, much less that kid.

Priorities are rescue the hostage, protect bystanders/civilians, our personal safety, the suspect. 

Good order of priorities. And maybe the best way to do that is to convince him to calm down. In this particular circumstance, only three of those four priorities were satisfied. We will never make progress unless people are willing to admit that killing the suspect is not what was desired. It might even be fair to call it a failure. We can call it a “justified shooting,” but that should not lead us to feel like this guy’s death doesn’t matter.

Do you want to be the cop who tries to talk to him as he shoots the kid in the head and then points the gun at you? Fuck that.

Yeah, it’s a really dangerous job. If you don’t like that, maybe don’t be a cop. You’re not going to eliminate risk 100% and you definitely shouldn’t try by just shooting when another option might be possible.

He either puts the weapon down or gets put down at this point.

Shoot him for not following orders? At the moment he was shot, he wasn’t shooting anyone. There’s no evidence he was even trying to shoot anyone. Unfortunately, we don’t get to see whatever it was the shooting cop thought he saw.

Again, he was in the street, shooting randomly at passing vehicles

Not when the cops were there, he wasn’t.

100% correct in shooting him when he refused those orders

Again: Shot for not following orders. Not for trying to kill someone.

He was given ample opportunity.

How do you measure “ample?” Ask him once? Five times? Why not a hundred? What’s the rush?

How hard would you try?

How hard would you try if that man were not a stranger, but your own brother or your father? Would you have maybe tried asking him to put the gun down more times? Or more gently?

What was this guy’s mental state? Did he suffer from mental illness? Was he drugged? Maybe he’s not normally a bad guy and might have been an ok father - had he lived. A lot of times with these domestic disputes, you get a man who is aggressively possessive about a spouse or child, but he would never actually kill them, or could at least be talked down. Sometimes good people have bad days. Other times, of course, he would kill. It happens.

And it is easy to Monday morning QB these things

That kind of talk disrespects and dismisses legitimate inquiry. And anyway, it’s not just me. The incident is under investigation. That should tell you that the answers are not automatically exactly what happened. Further, we have a responsibility, as a society, to question these events and our standard practices. It should always be a goal to not kill people if at all possible. Maybe to show this shooting was justified, you should have to show that any other outcome was impossible.

From where I am sitting the officers handles the situation perfectly.

Then you didn’t need to open up the topic for a conversation. Again, I’m not saying the shooting was unjustified. I don’t have enough evidence. But if cops and government aren’t willing to truly approach the question with a genuinely open mind, there will continue to be animus between police and much of the rest of society.

Your typical deflections and whataboutisms.  

I totally agree - especially the answer to the Monday morning QB - we always need to question if there was a better way than shooting a suspect. ALWAYS. The answer may end up being there wasn't, but the question must be asked. 

Maybe it should be. That’s what reform looks like. You change standard procedure into something different.

He had a gun to small child's head, I honestly don't much care what he was thinking or what his point of view was. 

Yeah, but he hadn’t actually demonstrated an intention to kill anyone, much less that kid.

He was firing randomly at cars driving down the street, that is demonstration enough for me. That aside, the mother fucker has a hostage and has fired his weapon multiple times, the only reasonable course of action is to assume that he means business. 

Good order of priorities. And maybe the best way to do that is to convince him to calm down.

Wasn't going to happen here. He was in the middle of the road, had fired multiple shots at random, had a hostage, and was not listening to the commands of officers. We MUST assume that he will use lethal force against the hostage and ourselves. Unfortunately we do not have the luxury of considering every possible outcome in the middle of a situation like this. Simple fact of the matter is there was a hostage, shits were fired, there was a direct danger to the public, he refused to stand down after repeated orders to do so. Only one logical choice IMO.

Yeah, it’s a really dangerous job. If you don’t like that, maybe don’t be a cop. You’re not going to eliminate risk 100% and you definitely shouldn’t try by just shooting when another option might be possible.

I am fine with the danger. I accepted that when I took my place in the academy. 

Look man, in this situation shooting was 100% the correct action. He posed an immediate threat to the hostage, bystanders, and officers. Maybe you would like to take the chance that he would drop the gun in 5 mins and no one would get hurt, but not me and not those officers. 

Shoot him for not following orders? At the moment he was shot, he wasn’t shooting anyone. There’s no evidence he was even trying to shoot anyone. Unfortunately, we don’t get to see whatever it was the shooting cop thought he saw.

Yes. And at the moment he was shot he was waving the gun at everyone around including the hostage. He had ALREADY fired at passing cars. The cop didn't "thought" he saw anything, the suspect was clearly armed.

Not when the cops were there, he wasn’t.

You are right, when they showed up he was pointing his weapon at the and the hostage after he had clearly showed willingness to use it. So much better.

Again: Shot for not following orders. Not for trying to kill someone.

Threatening the lives of the hostage, bystanders, and the officers and demonstrating a willingness to carry it out. 

How do you measure “ample?” Ask him once? Five times? Why not a hundred? What’s the rush?

The "rush" is the gun pointed at a 1 year old's fucking head by a guy who has already pulled the trigger and KNOWS he is totally fucked. 

How hard wouldyoutry if that man were not a stranger, but your own brother or your father? Would you have maybe tried asking him to put the gun down more times? Or more gently?

Ahhh, good ol what ifs. We can play this game into eternity and never get to the end.

What was this guy’s mental state?

Don't know and no time to reasonably assess it.

Did he suffer from mental illness? Was he drugged?

Don't know and no time to assess it.

Maybe he’s not normally a bad guy and might have been an ok father - had he lived. A lot of times with these domestic disputes, you get a man who is aggressively possessive about a spouse or child, but he would never actually kill them, or could at least be talked down. Sometimes good people have bad days. Other times, of course, hewouldkill. It happens.

Maybe, maybe not. Domestic situations are always messy. What isn't messy though is him holding the kid hostage after discharging his weapon multiple times at passing cars and then pointing it at his hostage. Maybe he was just having a bad day, but bad day or no, bad choices have bad consequences, and threatening children is a BIG no no for (most) law enforcement. We simply will not take the chance. 

The incident is under investigation. That should tell you that the answers are not automatically exactly what happened.

The officer will be fine. In Arizona he was perfectly within the bounds of state law, and his departmental policies/procedures. He got mad props for what he did, from the cheif on down.

Further, we have a responsibility, as a society, to question these events and our standard practices. It should always be a goal to not kill people if at all possible. Maybe to show this shooting was justified, you should have to show that any other outcome was impossible.

And how do you show that? 

But if cops and government aren’t willing to truly approach the question with a genuinely open mind, there will continue to be animus between police and much of the rest of society.

Always gonna be there because people don't like to be called out on their bullshit. 

Did all those cops need to pull their weapons and point them at the man?

Absolutely.

Is there a way this could have been deescalated?

Not without an unjustifiable risk to the police and the baby.

Once this guy showed them that he was willing to cause lethal harm to his own child over a fight with the child's mother, deescalation was off the table.  I'm not saying he couldn't have been talked down, but he couldn't be allowed to shoot his own son, either.  Whether or not he was mentally ill at that point was irrelevant, IMO.  He was just as much a danger whether he was or wasn't.  If he suffered from mental illness, that would make his death tragic, but no less necessary.  We can't sacrifice the safety and lives of others to protect the mentally ill.

[Deleted]

The number one thing in training I had was Officer Survival,  Make the right decision and be able to justify it but at the end of the shift you go home.  Think before you get into a situation but things happen fast.   Always put yourself in a safe position and we can catch them later

Sheriff said he would rather they got away and we go after them later than have to go to a Deputy's funeral 

And,  you can't shoot them if they are running away.  

Yep. Officer safety is paramount. 

Lol I didn't have the balls, at least not this late in life, to be a deputy. 23 right after the Marines, fuck yeah. But now, with a wife and kids and all that.... other considerations.