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New Mexico increases focus on race in K-12 despite backlash

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  john-russell  •  2 years ago  •  64 comments

By:   TheGrio

New Mexico increases focus on race in K-12 despite backlash
School districts will begin training teachers on the new standards next year and implement them in the classroom in the fall of 2023.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



New Mexico's K-12 students will see a greater focus on race and ethnicity, including Native American history, in their curriculum over the next two years under new standards aimed at making social studies teaching more culturally responsive.

The New Mexico Public Education Department recently finalized the changes following months of debate that included pushback from parents worried their kids would be labeled racist. The standards don't mandate specific lessons or textbooks but will require school districts to increase their focus on social identities and understanding the world through the lens of race, class and privilege.

New Mexico is the latest Democratic-led state to approve new public school standards amid a move toward more open discussion of race. As in Washington and New York, the standards require students to identify and articulate their cultural identity starting in elementary school. Ethnic studies will now be part of the high school curriculum, though not required for graduation as in California.

A dozen other states have passed laws to restrict topics related to race and gender over concerns, particularly among the GOP, about "critical race theory," which has become a catch-all term for identity politics in education. In Virginia, the governor is looking to root out all traces of "inherently divisive concepts" some parents believe could make children feel as if they are racist because of their skin color.

In New Mexico, hundreds of parents, teachers and grandparents weighed in for and against the proposed changes last fall. Officials heard public comments in thousands of letters and hundreds of appearances in an all-day Zoom forum.

Supporters backed a closer look at the history of Indigenous communities in the state and more discussion of race and identity at an earlier age.

The final rule, published Feb. 16, rebutted some criticisms about identity and integrated a plea for including personal finance in the curriculum changes.

School districts will begin training teachers on the new standards next year and implement them in the classroom in the fall of 2023.

It's the state's first overhaul of social studies standards since 2001, expanding sections in history, geography, civics and economics.

The new standards change the way Native American histories are taught. In the coming years, students are more likely to study the state's 23 tribes on their own terms and more in depth. In the past, that history was cursory and focused on comparing and contrasting with European conquerors.

State education officials are also under pressure to make the K-12 school system more relevant to the 11% of students who are Native American, owing in part to an ongoing lawsuit. A court ruled in 2018 that the state isn't meeting the educational needs of Indigenous kids, and the education department has yet to release a plan to address the issues laid out by the court, and faces further litigation.

Alisa Diehl, an education attorney at the New Mexico Center on Law and Poverty representing the plaintiffs, calls changes to the social studies standards a "first step toward providing a public education system that takes students' cultures, languages and life experiences into account as required by our statutes and constitution."

Charlotte Herman, 13, listens as history teacher Wendy Leighton discusses the Salem witch trials with her students at Monte del Sol Charter School on Dec. 3, 2021, in Santa Fe, N.M. As conservative-run states across the U.S. move to restrict discussion of race, gender, and identity in the classroom, progressive-run states are trying to prioritize those discussions. In New Mexico, education officials are moving forward with a social studies curriculum that increases focus on identity, race and "privilege or systemic inequity." (AP Photo/Cedar Attanasio, File)

Opponents of the new approach expressed fears that children would be labeled as victims or oppressors based on their race.

Some commenters color-coded the entire proposed rule, identifying language that they saw as echoes of critical race theory, including phrases like "unequal power relations," "privilege or systemic inequity," and requirements that students identify their "group identity" starting in kindergarten.

The agency also removed "mentions of sexuality, communism, police brutality and gun violence following concerns raised by the public," said Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham spokeswoman Maddy Hayden.

The agency decided to keep the privilege, power and inequity language, and even increased the instances of those terms in an effort to make the language consistent across different sections of the final rule, in response to public comment.

The response to those criticisms stated that: "Critical race theory is suited for graduate school-level discussions, and is not contained in the standards."

At the heart of the debate is whether discussing differences in the classroom hardens social divisions or softens them.

Earlier this month, Republicans in the New Mexico Legislature proposed banning critical race theory. They also proposed replacing leadership at the education department, currently appointed by the governor, with an elected board. Both measures failed.

In a letter to state education officials last week, released Wednesday, Republican leaders said they would advocate for districts to use wiggle room in the curriculum requirements to keep conservative textbooks and lesson plans. They said education officials ignored public opposition.

The department "had no real intention of making significant changes to the proposed standards which were clearly outside of the mainstream of New Mexico's values and traditions," the letter said.

The letter was signed by House Republican leaders including Rebecca Dow, of Truth or Consequences. Dow is one of three members of her party fighting in a primary to take on the sitting governor, a Democrat.

"Whether they fit all the definitions of 'critical race theory' or not, the new standards appear designed to divide New Mexicans by race, ethnicity and economic status," said Paul Gessing, president of the libertarian think tank Rio Grande Foundation.

Authors of the changes say identity has become a more important and more visible aspect of society and needs to be studied.

"It's more like a deep exploration that there are identity differences that exist, and that everybody is not always going to think the same. But the level of respect for everybody's varying opinions is what we want to bring out in the classroom," said Irene Barry, an English teacher in Aztec, New Mexico.

Barry says the biggest changes in the social studies standards are an incremental introduction to social identity from K-12, and the expansion of civics and geography into high school. The previous standards didn't focus on identity and wrapped up geography and civics in middle school.

Education department leaders said removing the language advocated by Barry and other teachers would devalue their work, despite the many objections from the public voiced in comments.

History teacher Wendy Leighton holds a copy of "They Called us Enemy," about the internment of Japanese Americans, while speaking about being marginalized with her students at Monte del Sol Charter School on Dec. 3, 2021, in Santa Fe, N.M. As conservative-run states across the U.S. move to restrict discussion of race, gender, and identity in the classroom, progressive-run states are trying to prioritize those discussions. In New Mexico, education officials are moving forward with a social studies curriculum that increases focus on identity, race and "privilege or systemic inequity." (AP Photo/Cedar Attanasio, File)

"You want to be respectful of them and their voice and the role they played in creating these (education standards)," said Gwen Perea Warniment, deputy secretary of teaching, learning and assessment for the education department.

In economics, the agency responded to public comments with sweeping changes, adding an entirely new section on personal finance, following a letter campaign backed by a local education policy think tank.

By fifth grade, students can be learning how to track spending and savings. In high school, standards include sections on understanding credit scores, the consequences of credit cards, and ways to build wealth with tools such as stocks, savings and real estate.

"New Mexico now joins the 45 other states that include personal finance in their K-12 education standards, which is an important first step to tackling intergenerational poverty," said Abenicio Baldonado, education reform director for Think New Mexico, which promoted the letter campaign.

Baldonado is advocating for personal finance to be required for high school graduation.


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JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1  seeder  JohnRussell    2 years ago

Put your big boy and girl pants on racists. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
1.1  Sean Treacy  replied to  JohnRussell @1    2 years ago

Sure John, those obsessively focusing on race and who plot  to Ensure their racist obsessions are implanted in the next generation aren’t  the racists.

Keep assaulting the English language. 

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Participates
1.2  Nowhere Man  replied to  JohnRussell @1    2 years ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
1.3  Ronin2  replied to  JohnRussell @1    2 years ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.4  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @1    2 years ago
Put your big boy and girl pants on racists. 

That would be whoever teaches that whites children are born racists.

At least we can now put to rest the big lie that CRT is not being taught in K - 12. It takes a proponent of the teaching of this racist nonsense to make the point. Give them a chance and they are going to do exactly what parents caught them doing during the virtual learning of the pandemic. What a more fitting place than the bad lands of New Mexico.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
2  Drakkonis    2 years ago

Well, one way to aid in the discussion about all of this is for public school districts to publish online the course material that will be taught. That way the public can see for themselves what is and isn't being taught. I don't have children myself but I feel that I should have access as well, since the largest single portion of my property taxes goes to schools. I should be able to see what I'm getting for that and it would help me, and the rest of us, make more informed decisions about what is really going on. 

That said, not a fan of identity driven curriculums, if it is mirroring what is happening in the public sphere outside the classroom, which I think is likely. Identity politics will never, ever unify this country. It can only divide us, since by its very nature, it puts everyone in different camps with different values. It would be like ten people living in the same house, all trying to live by different rules. And the whole 'privilege' thing is just as bad. Both are products of CRT, which the article attempts to divert from by claiming CRT as the theory itself isn't being taught. I'm sure it's not but that isn't the concern. It's what CRT produces that is. An ideology that is being indoctrinated into our children without consent. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Drakkonis @2    2 years ago
The new standards change the way Native American histories are taught. In the coming years, students are more likely to study the state's 23 tribes on their own terms and more in depth. In the past, that history was cursory and focused on comparing and contrasting with European conquerors. State education officials are also under pressure to make the K-12 school system more relevant to the 11% of students who are Native American, owing in part to an ongoing lawsuit. A court ruled in 2018 that the state isn't meeting the educational needs of Indigenous kids, and the education department has yet to release a plan to address the issues laid out by the court, and faces further litigation.

Do you think Native American studies should be taught in school ? 

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
2.1.1  Drakkonis  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1    2 years ago

Depends on what those studies are. I recall my own education on the issue. It wasn't the glorious expansion west that some think it was. I learned about massacres from both sides. The trail of tears. Idiocy of Custer. Broken treaties and the like. I remember watching the westerns when I was a kid and while I didn't understand a lot about the Native's perspective, I was aware that they were fighting for something, not just running around being savages. I understood they were being pushed out for 'progress' and 'civilization'. I remember reading Broken Arrow and another book about a white boy captured and made a slave, who grew to understand and appreciate the culture, although I don't remember the name of it. I remember about Chiefs who were lured to peace talks but when they got there, were hanged. All things I learned in school. And, although not in depth, something of their culture. 

What sort of studies were you thinking of? 

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
2.1.2  Ronin2  replied to  Drakkonis @2.1.1    2 years ago

Funny I had to same type of education in both History and Social Studies at Jr High School, High School, and college. Grades beneath that they were more concerned about hammering facts into our heads than anything else; to make sure we had a foundation for future studies.

Guess the Democrat indoctrination centers feel the need to start at the very beginning these days. Original thought is not to be tolerated the further children advance in their education. they must be programmed early.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
2.1.3  Drakkonis  replied to  Ronin2 @2.1.2    2 years ago
Guess the Democrat indoctrination centers feel the need to start at the very beginning these days. Original thought is not to be tolerated the further children advance in their education. they must be programmed early.

That's what I think has a lot of parents pissed off. I don't think any of them have a problem with literal and true history being taught but what we have right now isn't about history. It's about pushing a particular narrative as to why that history happened. Worse, they do it extremely selectively in order to support a political agenda. As you say, programming. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.4  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Drakkonis @2.1.3    2 years ago

One way or another, school children should be taught that historically America has been a racist nation. 

First of all it is undeniably true, and secondly the admission will open the door to a brighter future for everyone. The country cannot close the chapters of racism without that admission. 

I dont know what people are afraid of, other than having their white pride feelings hurt. 

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
2.1.5  Drakkonis  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.4    2 years ago
One way or another, school children should be taught that historically America has been a racist nation. 

America was a racist nation. The farther back in time you go, the more racist it was, with the possible exception of the very earliest years. Now, it is less racist than practically any other Nation on Earth. Yet elements of the left want us to believe it's actually worse than it's ever been and in such a way that white people can't see it. In truth, it's just a retelling of the "Emperor's new clothes" fable. 

The truth of the matter, as I see it, is that race is being used as the tool in which neo-Marxists are trying to change the nation from a capitalist society to a socialist one. Nobody wants to be identified as a racist so the idea is to lead them towards socialism. In other words, accept our solution to a non-existent racism problem or you're a racist. Class struggle rebranded in racist terms. 

I dont know what people are afraid of, other than having their white pride feelings hurt. 

Which is another tool for the same purpose. Avoid exposure of the actual agenda to the public by dismissing legitimate objections in superficial terms, like 'white pride' and hurt feelings as the only basis for objecting to the ideology to keep one's own base from thinking too hard about what it is they're supporting. That's what our liberal education system is intentionally doing. They are including their ideology into every facet of education they can get their hands on and why you get insane ideas like math being racist. 

320

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
2.1.6  bugsy  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.4    2 years ago

John, if this country is so racist, then why do millions of people from all over the world, of all colors, try and get here every day, legally and illegally?

Fact is, this country IS NOT racist.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
2.1.7  Jack_TX  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.4    2 years ago
One way or another, school children should be taught that historically America has been a racist nation. 

One way or another, school children should be taught math.  Then they'll be able to see for themselves where the racism really lurks.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
3  Greg Jones    2 years ago

"Whether they fit all the definitions of 'critical race theory' or not, the new standards appear designed to divide New Mexicans by race, ethnicity and economic status," said Paul Gessing, president of the libertarian think tank Rio Grande Foundation.

Teaching the false doctrines and ideologies of CRT should not be allowed in public schools.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
4  Sean Treacy    2 years ago

 In New Mexico, education officials are moving forward with a social studies curriculum that increases focus on identity, race and "privilege or systemic inequity." 

A class on race. Is this  1930s Germany, or New Mexico?

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
4.1  Thrawn 31  replied to  Sean Treacy @4    2 years ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Participates
5  1stwarrior    2 years ago

Unfortunately, as a New Mexican and a Native American, I'm seeing a lot of Snow-flakism pouring out of their future "plans" for teaching our children.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.1  Kavika   replied to  1stwarrior @5    2 years ago
I'm seeing a lot of Snow-flakism pouring out of their future "plans" for teaching our children.

And what would those Snow-flaksim be?

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Participates
5.1.1  1stwarrior  replied to  Kavika @5.1    2 years ago

Quite simply, the "Board" that made the decision to push this proposal to the legislature/Governor hasn't even been formed.  The "idea" was to begin teaching their new methods/indoctrination in school year 2023.  Well, that ain't gonna happen as the "Board" hasn't given the education "leaders" the tools/means of moving in the direction they intend.  No committee has been formed to "reform" the current education system.  The teachers are scratching their heads as to WTF is going on because the direction being "dictated" IS NOT an educational foundation - it's all about SOCIAL INJUSTICE - sorry, but the world does not revolve 'round social injustice..

You wanna learn 'bout differences in race???  Look into YOUR OWN culture/traditions/heritage - there's your differences.  Learn from your elders and your clans and your leaders in your particular ethnic makeup.  Funny - don't see any suggestions that the school systems now have to devise, implement and teach 'bout the Polish, Italian, German, French, Chilean, Greek, Russian, Bosnian, Czech, Moldavian, South African, Lebanese, etc.. cultures/traditions/heritages that have been/are the foundations for our society in the U.S.  But, man-o-man, gonna be a lot of that Black, Red, Brown, Yellow, White shyte being pushed down the kid's/children's/adolescent's which, as always happens in schools, will directly oppose the teachings/learnings/comprehension being given at home - from their parents - aunts - uncles - Elders - leaders.

Those of us who live and are exposed to the NM ways of life see things differently than the folks in NY, MA, CA, FL, etc., and we should have our education systems set up for the students to LEARN of what makes the WORLD go round - (sorry Liza, it ain't money).  One plus one still equals two, no matter what name you place on the "manner" in which you got your answer.  Don't try to sideline us by FORCING us to learn about what pizzes people off in the other 49 states (sorry Barry - there's only 50).  Teach us/the children what makes the world go 'round and how to maintain the stability needed to keep the world going round - and it ain't 'bout learning why some folks don't like the color clothes you wear and it OFFENDS them.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.1.2  Kavika   replied to  1stwarrior @5.1.1    2 years ago
You wanna learn 'bout differences in race??? Look into YOUR OWN culture/traditions/heritage - there's your differences. 

Good to know that you think that I don't know the culture/traditions/heritage/language of my own culture. That is an ignorant comment on your part. 

From what I can gather from your comment is that you think/feel that NM is separate from the rest of the US and that the schools will be teaching ''social injustice''...I would think that as a NA you'd have an understanding of what social injustice is and all the nationalities that you mentioned are part of the American mosaic so learning the history of each of those groups would seem to me to be a good thing since they all Americans. You have said many times that we, Native Americans, are the invisible people. Following your logic, we will stay the invisible people for the next century

Since the demographics of NM show that minorities, Hispanic and Native Americans are the majority should they not be teaching about both groups? The timing (time frame) seems to be a concern to you, would you be OK with this if it started in 2024, or would you still have a problem with it?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.1.3  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Kavika @5.1.2    2 years ago

I am still trying to figure out what the "conservatives" are so afraid of in terms of teaching a multicultural approach. 

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
5.1.4  Drakkonis  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.3    2 years ago
I am still trying to figure out what the "conservatives" are so afraid of in terms of teaching a multicultural approach.

Simple. You can't hold a country together when you've got ten different groups trying to make the country ten different things. 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
5.1.5  Thrawn 31  replied to  Drakkonis @5.1.4    2 years ago

Exactly, make it race neutral and make it WHITE! 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
5.1.6  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Drakkonis @5.1.4    2 years ago

Bingo. Multiculturalism doesn't work.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Participates
5.1.7  1stwarrior  replied to  Kavika @5.1.2    2 years ago

Good to know that you think that I don't know the culture/traditions/heritage/language of my own culture. That is an ignorant comment on your part. 

And I said that where?

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.1.8  Kavika   replied to  1stwarrior @5.1.7    2 years ago

I highlighted it for you. Would you care to address the rest of my comment as well?

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.1.9  Kavika   replied to  Thrawn 31 @5.1.5    2 years ago

Agreed, a simple solution for the white grievance crowd.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
5.1.10  Drakkonis  replied to  Thrawn 31 @5.1.5    2 years ago
Exactly, make it race neutral and make it WHITE! 

Nice, Thrawn. Shut down the conversation by slapping a 'RACISM' sticker on it. I guess you don't have much choice when you don't have an actual relevant thing to say. Like, how my point might be wrong and how it could work. You know. Something like that? 

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Participates
5.1.11  1stwarrior  replied to  Kavika @5.1.8    2 years ago

When I write/respond on/to a subject, I write to the third person - not an individual - unless that individual has actually requested dialog.  My entire comment above was for the "general" audience, not to a specific person - i.e. "you" being the collective not the selective.

Yes, I have responded to you/with you on the comments you've made numerous times on NV/NT, so you know what my comments can/will be.

The comments made above by me were towards the actions that "society" should take.  Most/many ethnic groups already educate regarding their cultures/traditions/heritages within their ethnic groups.  There are way too many nuances within each ethnic group's culture/traditions/heritages for general society to understand why ethnic groups act/respond as they do to the "demands" of general society, which are usually so very one sided, to be able to include those nuances in the educational field.

Those comments were not/are not directed toward the actions of an individual - but are directed toward the actions that "society" should consider - the many, not the few.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.1.12  Kavika   replied to  1stwarrior @5.1.11    2 years ago

Since I'm part of the ''you'' I responded to your comment. 

If I'm to understand your comment nothing about any race/nationality should be taught. So that would leave out the history of America's original inhabitants. 

Not a way I would approach this but to each his own.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Participates
5.1.13  1stwarrior  replied to  Kavika @5.1.12    2 years ago

Then somewhere, you've lost the content of our previous discussions, and you're doing a lot of conjecturing - which ain't like you - or like you was.

Got no problem TEACHING 'bout race/ethnicity - got a huge problem with "tilting" that teaching to lead to attempting to lean one race over another.  NM's educational folks haven't gotten past the part of "oh, we're all equal???" yet. 

Since you are not here living with the folks who will be impacted by this CF, it will be hard to see/hear/learn the travesty this "educational" group will be impending of the students/teachers.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.1.14  Kavika   replied to  1stwarrior @5.1.13    2 years ago
Then somewhere, you've lost the content of our previous discussions, and you're doing a lot of conjecturing - which ain't like you - or like you was.

Not conjecturing at all, just taking you at my understanding of your written word.

What race (s) would they be leaning over the other? I hope that you are aware that leaning one over the other was been part of the curriculum for decades. Why shit, I couldn't even go to the same school as those white kids. Now that is what I call leaning to favor one over the other.

Since you are not here living with the folks who will be impacted by this CF, it will be hard to see/hear/learn the travesty this "educational" group will be impending of the students/teachers.

No, I'm not. Perhaps you'd feel better if you were in Florida where they can't teach much in school with the nut we have for governor. Whatever you do, do not say the word ''gay'' or any of the other bizarre things he is pushing. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Expert
5.1.15  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @5.1.6    2 years ago
Bingo. Multiculturalism doesn't work.

Don't tell that to any New Yorker. You would have to get rid of almost all of our parades and festivals. 

I don't really think you get what "Multiculturalism" is. As a teacher I can tell you that it's learning about each other's culture as part of the fabric of American society. It is not "ten different groups trying to make the country ten different things.", as Drakk suggested.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.1.16  Kavika   replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @5.1.15    2 years ago
I don't really think you get what "Multiculturalism" is.

I would say that is a true statement.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
5.1.17  Drakkonis  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @5.1.15    2 years ago
I don't really think you get what " Multiculturalism" is. As a teacher I can tell you that it's learning about each other's culture as part of the fabric of American society. It is not "ten different groups trying to make the country ten different things.", as Drakk suggested.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
5.1.18  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @5.1.15    2 years ago
It is not "ten different groups trying to make the country ten different things.", as Drakk suggested.

That's crap and you know it. I like the parades and festivals and all those things that share other cultures. But in society, Drak is absolutely correct. Why do you think Oklahoma chose/had to nip Muslim "culture" in the bud? 

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Participates
5.1.19  1stwarrior  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @5.1.18    2 years ago

Why do you think that OK chose to nip "Native American" culture and push them in the dirt?

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Participates
5.1.20  1stwarrior  replied to  Kavika @5.1.14    2 years ago

Kav - the sad part is that all of this in just in the "planning" stages - they really don't have any idea what they "plan" to do, but they are just going to do it.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
5.1.21  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  1stwarrior @5.1.19    2 years ago

And THAT is a big mistake. Not allowing Sharia law and all the stupid shit that comes with it makes sense. You cannot have a country with more than one common set of laws. 

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
5.1.22  evilone  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @5.1.21    2 years ago
Not allowing Sharia law and all the stupid shit that comes with it makes sense. You cannot have a country with more than one common set of laws. 

That shows you have no clue what Sharia Law is as it pertains to US Law. Or do you want to also tell the Catholics they have to abandon Canon Law?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.1.23  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @5.1.21    2 years ago

Sharia law is unconstitutional in the United States. It is a far right boogeyman. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
5.1.24  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  evilone @5.1.22    2 years ago

Just not real big on discrimination and disrespect and control of women.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
5.1.25  devangelical  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @5.1.21    2 years ago

yet some americans seem to fully approve of gov't influence by evangelicals. why is that?

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
5.1.26  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  devangelical @5.1.25    2 years ago

Stupid? Nah. Some morality is needed in the law.

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
5.1.27  evilone  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @5.1.24    2 years ago
Just not real big on discrimination and disrespect and control of women.

Good job moving the goal posts...

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.1.28  Kavika   replied to  evilone @5.1.22    2 years ago
Whatever you do don't post any facts, or point out fallacies heads will explode. 
 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
5.1.29  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  evilone @5.1.27    2 years ago

Who moved the goal posts? 

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
5.1.30  Trout Giggles  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @5.1.26    2 years ago

Yes, like killing and stealing is wrong but your morality isn't always going to be my morality. I have no problem with a secular society that allows people to marry whom they choose and get a abortion if one is wanted.

I don't want to be governed by a theocratic government who will tell me to go home and obey my husband

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
5.1.31  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Trout Giggles @5.1.30    2 years ago

I don't want you to either. That was my point.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
5.1.32  Trout Giggles  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @5.1.31    2 years ago

So....some morality is subjective? Because that's what I think.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
5.1.33  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Trout Giggles @5.1.32    2 years ago

Yep

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
5.1.34  Tessylo  replied to  Trout Giggles @5.1.32    2 years ago

Morons are always trying to legislate morality.  See 5.1.25

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
5.1.35  evilone  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @5.1.29    2 years ago
Who moved the goal posts? 

You. Your first comment I replied to was: 

Not allowing Sharia law and all the stupid shit that comes with it makes sense. You cannot have a country with more than one common set of laws. 

Which was ignorant of how religious rules and US law work. Then your second comment went way out on a tangent without addressing my post at all:

Just not real big on discrimination and disrespect and control of women.

I'm assuming you mean this in context of Sharia Law, but it has no bearing on how Sharia Law, or Canon Law, or Mormon Law or any number of religious laws work in accordance with US Law. Neither you, nor anyone that isn't part of these groups needs to worry about it either. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
5.1.36  Tessylo  replied to  evilone @5.1.35    2 years ago

He also thinks you can legislate morality.  

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
5.1.37  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Tessylo @5.1.36    2 years ago

No HE doesn't.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Expert
5.1.38  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @5.1.18    2 years ago

Actually, no that is not how it was applied in education at least when I taught. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
6  Tessylo    2 years ago

He obviously does.

"Stupid? Nah. Some morality is needed in the law."

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
6.1  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Tessylo @6    2 years ago

You can't legislate it in. All you can do is use common sense morality as a basic tenet when doing so. There needs to be morality. Thus, Murder is illegal. But you keep being you.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
7  Tessylo    2 years ago

You can't legislate morality.

It takes common sense to know that.  

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
7.1  Texan1211  replied to  Tessylo @7    2 years ago
You can't legislate morality.

Is killing another human for no reason a moral act?

Is murder illegal?

Is selling your body for sex moral?

Is it legal?

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
7.1.1  evilone  replied to  Texan1211 @7.1    2 years ago

Legislating on morality is an interesting concept both historically and socially. Morality is often a moving target and has definitely changed over time and from group to group. It indeed has been a basic tenant in the foundation of law with varying degrees of success.

Is killing another human for no reason a moral act? Is murder illegal?

Killing someone can be both moral and legal, immoral and illegal depending. The differentiation is how it effects society and that perception can even change over time. Many feel the death penalty is immoral while plenty also find it not so. It is still legal in a shrinking number of US states. Shooting a neighbor in the face because you want his house is neither legal nor considered moral in the US at this time, but during the early part of US history killing indigenous people for their land was considered both. 

Is selling your body for sex moral? Is it legal?

This is even more amorphous than your murder example, but considering sex work has been the "worlds oldest profession" I'm wondering why. There are places in the US that prostitution is legal and more than a few people trying to open legalization in many states to bring it out of the shadows to make it safe for both sex workers and patrons. This is of course an abhorrent idea for many people who continue to use an antiquated religious morality. We could even more into pornography as it's still sex work for money and far more accessible to anyone with an internet connection. This subject get way more complicated than just morality/legality so I'll end it here.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
7.1.2  Texan1211  replied to  evilone @7.1.1    2 years ago
Killing someone can be both moral and legal, immoral and illegal depending. The differentiation is how it effects society and that perception can even change over time.

I did ask the question with the caveat of "for no reason".

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
7.1.3  evilone  replied to  Texan1211 @7.1.2    2 years ago
I did ask the question with the caveat of "for no reason".

I saw that and it didn't make any sense to me...

Even if the reason is insanely irrational there is always a reason. BTK got a sexual thrill. Timothy McVeigh wanted revenge for the government's siege of Waco. Cain Velasquez wanted justice for the sexual assault of a 4yr old family member in the recent attempted murder - and act many consider moral, but not legal.

Maybe you can explain it better?

 
 

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