Rep. Ken Buck: We Can't Regulate Assault Weapons Because Raccoons Eat Chickens

It is well known that the space program gave us the ballpoint pen. And it is also well known that the military industrial complex gave us the AR-15.

Thank God for that because AR-15s are apparently the only weapons that can be used to defend chickens from raccoons.

AR-15s are apparently the only weapons that can be used to defend chickens from raccoons

It’s not, of course. But neither is the AR-15 the only way to commit mass murder in a hurry. You can kill the 4th grade just as quickly with a 9mm handgun. Faster, probably, because the smaller weapon is easier to point in different directions.

Every year, firearm homicides by rifle number in the hundreds, while handgun homicides number in the thousands.

I'm tired of the circular logic that it's pointless to do anything about AR-15s because more people die from handguns and we shouldn't do anything about handguns because how will we shoot the the active shooters with AR-15s.

What to do with an impossible dilemma? The 'disturbance' to society of what causes random (mass) killings. Apparently, we can wrap our minds around the unfortunate and sad killing of some one way to explain the "incident." For example: the AR-15 is saving my farm animals from theft and death.

But when a murderer, mentally challenged or otherwise deficient in some way, takes the life of an escalating number of people compensation in the law by punishing that single  individual (or his or her suicide) is disproportionate to the worth of life energies crippled and/or depleted from our nation.

On a gun spectrum, such weapons can be used for good or bad purposes. Anything made for good purposes can be 'moved' to made for bad purposes, too. This is why we need exclusionary strategics to weigh in favor of the good purposes of guns over bad purposes. For example, organized crime syndicates exist for bad purposes and are absolutely exterminated by society/ites because they exist within what we call the "underworld" where the miscreants regulate and control themselves. Thus, becoming a law unto themselves, which society manages to abide.

Random shooters react with no bounds and when these individuals and groups raise up to public awareness, and an act of violence is in the process of happening, it's too late to cull the individual/s from society.

I'm tired of the circular logic that it's pointless to do anything about AR-15s because more people die from handguns and we shouldn't do anything about handguns because how will we shoot the the active shooters with AR-15s.

Oh.  Well why didn't you say so.  In that case.....

Everybody, we need to amend the Constitution because Gulliver is tired.

I’m not saying we should or shouldn’t do anything in particular. I hope you see that. What I will say is that the focus on the AR is not warranted considering so many other firearms have similar capability and are responsible for WAY more deaths each year. 

According to the FBI , handguns kill about 20 times as many people as rifles do. That matters to the conversation. You can’t just ignore that.

If you want to get rid of the AR, that’s fine. We can have that conversation. But you need a reason that matters. And if that reason applies to a hundred other models of firearm, then you need to get rid of those, too.

Too many gun laws aimed at the AR focus on irrelevant shit like a folding stock, pistol grip, or accessory mounts. I don’t have an AR, but I have a gun very much like it - the Mini-14. Like the AR, it has a tactical history (based on the M-14). Like the AR, it shoots .223. And like the AR, you can get a 30-round magazine for it. But no one cares about it because it comes in a very conservative looking, brown wooden stock.

I feel there is a political component to which guns politicians are willing to outlaw. The AR seems to be very popular with political conservatives. So Democrats are all on board with getting rid of it. There’s very little talk about any other weapon.

The top one is the one I was required to qualify on in the Air Force. Actually pretty easy to shoot and it had the capability of automatic fire...but we weren't allowed to do that

They are just lovely to shoot. Getting kicked by my shotgun feels like self-abuse, by comparison.

I have both of them and like them

Did you qualify with the AR-15 or the M-16?  They look alike but are different.  I think we're about the same age and I qualified with the M-16.  Later years to re-qualify they had the 22 LR bolt to replace the standard bolt to all the rifle to shoot 22LR.

I feel there is a political component to which guns politicians are willing to outlaw. The AR seems to be very popular with political conservatives. So Democrats are all on board with getting rid of it. There’s very little talk about any other weapon.

This rationale by-passes the issue that, at this point, democrats are looking for an "in" to fixing death on our streets, churches, stores, shopping centers, etc. That is, nothing is being put into effect to mitigate gun violence.

When there are parties involved, in order to establish a "handshake" there has to be an extension from the other side of the bargaining table to complete a compromise position. Our democratic system does not allow for democrats to act alone in solving gun violence in our country. Yet, we will not be safe from escalating gun violence until a solution or compromise is "won."

Democrats can not do this alone!

But the Democrat go-to point is just to ban the "assault rifle" again.  They refuse to discuss any other option.  We see it here all the time as well.   There are other options but when those are brought up the conservatives get accused of liking dead children.  Kind of hard to establish a "handshake" when the only response is an insult.  

Simple question. When assault rifles are again banned and the rate of these incidents don't go down,  what's next?

Simple question. When assault rifles are again banned and the rate of these incidents don't go down,  what's next?

Once the carnage ends and the tears (mostly) dry up, you mean? Amid all the "changes" this country puts itself through from coast to coast the one that best besets us as a nation is random mass shootings. Why? Because for whatever reason "copy cat" or chain-reaction mass shootings ensue.  And the mystery becomes which incident marks the start of a new cause and effect!

This is not an easy problem to fix. Still, complex problems do not dissipate themselves. The paid professionals, elected and empowered, have as duties and responsibilities to sit down and talk the fine details of having and 'holding to' a second amendment that works for the whole national 'organism.'

It is they, the elected leaders, up and down the board, who have the authority to decide this 'thing' we are dealing (gun violence) now. As politicians write nuance laws that effectively deal with segments of our citizen population groups—write laws in similar manner that seek to vanish or mitigate the random shooter element of society.

Will the random violence incidents go down or stay up? Only time will tell. But if we wait for a shooter to come for 'us' in our own 'neck of the woods' . . . there may be no one left to help.

“There are other options but…”

Do tell the other options…everything else is relegated to the ‘but’…

Guess age is creeping in here - qualified with the M-1, requaled, and carried in 'Nam, with the M-14, prior to discharge, qualed with the M-15/16.

We didn't like the M-15/16 in 'Nam in the early days as the rounds had a tendency of being ricocheted off branches, leaves, vines, etc..  What you shot at didn't stop.

Playing the DA again (Devil's Advocate)????

Once the carnage ends and the tears (mostly) dry up, you mean?

The carnage doesn't end with an assaults weapons ban. 

In 2020, per FBI numbers, there were 19,384 homicides involving guns in the US. Handguns were involved in 59% of the 13,620 U.S. gun murders and non-negligent manslaughters for which data is available.   Rifles, which has assault rifles as a subset, were involved in 3% of firearm murders. Shotguns were involved in 1%. The remainder of gun homicides and non-negligent manslaughters (36%) involved other kinds of firearms or those classified as “type not stated.”

The paid professionals,

Professional what?

Good movie.

I'm a bit younger.  I qualified Expert with the M-14 in High School and again in college ROTC. I qualified Expert with the M-16 on active duty. But I've always enjoyed my National Match M-1 the best.  My father helped me get it for me at Camp Perry Ohio.  It has superb trigger action for a semi-automatic and I loved firing on a 300 yard firing range.

My "winning" weapon at Perry was my personally purchased Armscorp M-1A - heavy duty oak stock double lugged, parkerized barrel, .520 rear sight, fixed blade front sight, single action - sweet - really sweet.  Got my Gold Distinguished rifle prior to Honorable Discharge in '92.  The CG furnished all the equipment - ammo, jackets, sweat shirts, gloves, etc.. and a Springfield M-1A for practice at the range/local competition matches.

Gotta thank Dad for getting me involved in the youth shooting program on the Posts we were stationed at, starting when I was 12.  Loved it and wouldn't trade it for a thing.

But, I still have hankerings for an ol' Garand M-1 - just can't beat'm.  Shoulda gott'n one from the CMP prior to discharge for $125.00 - today's prices are way outta reach.

Pacino was damn good.

my personally purchased Armscorp M-1A

Sweet.

Gotta thank Dad for getting me involved in the youth shooting program on the Posts we were stationed at, starting when I was 12.  Loved it and wouldn't trade it for a thing.

Same here, although I didn't shoot on base until my high school team competed at Ft Benning in 1970.

today's prices are way outta reach

You've got that right, my Dad is 93 and has sold some of his firearms but he will keep his Colt Gold Cup National Match 1911 with a 5" barrel for me.

I love watching him, De Niro and Nicholson perform as they go over the top.

?

One to watch is Chris Pine - Hell or High Water and Outlaw King.  Seriously breaks outta the envelope.

What's the question, maybe I can help you with it.

One to watch is Chris Pine - Hell or High Water

I saw him in Jack Ryan: Shadow Recruit and really liked him in Hell or High Water.  I'll look for Outlaw King.

No pun intended ? Lol

 The AR seems to be very popular with political conservatives.

And mass shooters.

While the two guns in the picture may be nearly identical in use, which one do you think a disgruntled 18 year old might choose if he's planning to shoot up a school, theatre, church, hospital or grocery store? I think we all know the answer to that question.

Perhaps it's a bit like the campaign to take flavored vape pens off the market because they've been shown to be specifically marketed to kids with fruity bubblegum flavors. These military style assault rifles are being marketed to young angry bitter incels and anyone who was bullied and wanted to have some power in their hands to 'fight back' while pretending to be some psycho soldier bent on revenge.

Also, with the guns in the picture working the same but with different looks, why would any responsible gun owner care if he can't get it in the "black military look" and has to buy it in the classic wood stock? They get the same gun as you've pointed out, right?

Terrorism is about inspiring terror in your victims, it's more than just killing. And military style assault rifles do just that which is clearly why those wanting to terrorize their schools or place of work or if they're out hunting black people because they're a white supremacist who believes they're being 'replaced', almost always choose them.

So perhaps we can all accept that the 2nd amendment isn't unlimited and States can ban certain types and even styles of guns, to perhaps reduce, even if just a little bit, the psychological attraction that some, especially those with mental illness, may have towards assault rifles and how apparently empowered they may feel when they have one in their hands. Perhaps if the whacko had just a classic wood stock rifle in hand they wouldn't feel as much of the part they wish to play and thus might reconsider. But we'll never know as long as the right wing conservative ammosexuals lust after military styles guns and large capacity clips that they've been stockpiling for the day they believe they'll have to fight to "take back their country" from the Godless liberals and progressives (and why they don't support universal background checks and gun registry), because that's what this is really all about.

The Military version is the 16 with a 3 position switch.

Th civilian version only has a 2 position switch.

They have been talked about plenty on this board but those on the left refuse to discuss.  How about hardening schools to make it much more difficult for a potential shooter to gain access in the first place, and if he gets past the front-door then all classrooms are locked down, doors and walls are bullet resistant.  Armed guards in schools,  only one entrance to a school for the public, push the parameter back to allow for more time for reaction.  Work with the people , schools, authorities, etc to increase awareness of the red flags that the majority of these mass shooters exhibit and keep working with people to get them to report such issues.  How many of these shooters, did we find out after the fact, had exhibited these red flags for a long time but nobody did or said anything.  Schools and teachers need to be more aware of their students and any potential home life issues so these kids don't fall thru the cracks so easily but to do that requires money as we need to reduce class sizes to a reasonable volume so the teacher has time to get to know their students.  Schools need to take bullying seriously and stop just giving it lip service.

More work needs to be done on the mental health system.  We have let people fall away because of policies that are so afraid of "harming" someone that it instead releases them into the open to have them care for themselves.  If they could care for themselves they wouldn't be in their problems in the first place.  And more work on the science of these mental health drugs needs to be done as we know that some people have a very adverse reaction to some of the drugs.

Put more teeth into the NICS system to insure that all states and reporting agencies are getting the proper information in to the system on a timely manner.  Work on HIPPA laws to allow for better communication between mental health professionals and the NICS system, for example the shooter who shot Gabby Giffords had been kicked out of Pima Community College due to disruptive behavior and had met with a school counselor but that counselor never sent her notes anywhere out of fear of HIPPA laws.  

Every student should have annual training on gun safety (age appropriate).  Too many children's only experience with guns is what they see on TV or movies until it's too late.  They should be given the proper training in safety every year they are in school.  

There are a lot of options that should be talked about rather than the immediate jump to ban a certain type of gun.  Because as I said, when these types of guns are banned and the incidents don't decrease what's next?  Hell, even Biden in his speech only talked about banning new sales, nothing about removing the existing weapons.  He even clarified that nobody was going to take away anybody's gun which further indicates that existing ownership will not be touched.  There's an estimated 15 million AR-15's in private hands, and how many other similar type weapons?  The left keeps wanting to talk about "common sense regulations" yet it keeps going back to an action from 28 years ago that really had a rather limited impact on gun violence.  Attempting to do the same actions while hoping for different results is the text-book definition of insanity.  Let's look at the person as well has "hardening" potential targets.

Th civilian version only has a 2 position switch.

yeah,  you have to go back quite a few years where they reused a lot more of the same parts.  I have an Auto-Ordnance Thompson 1927 A5 and an Auto-Ordnance Thompson 1927 A-1.  Both are semi-automatic yet both have a 3 position switch.  

I appreciate your passion, Snuffy, and the well stated comments.

While we diverge on how to get to the ultimate destination, it is imperative to at least agree we are all traveling the same road.

Safe travels. 

I liked Chris Pine in Unstoppable with Denzel which was based on a true incident.  I used to have such a crush on his father (Robert Pine/ Sgt Contraire - CHiPs),

"Every year, firearm homicides by rifle number in the hundreds, while handgun homicides number in the thousands."

Love it when you catch me doing that

Schools and teachers need to be more aware of their students and any potential home life issues so these kids don't fall thru the cracks so easily but to do that requires money as we need to reduce class sizes to a reasonable volume so the teacher has time to get to know their students. 

God bless you, Snuffy you're trying to at least discuss this. However, some conservatives literally hate public education. For them, spending money to reduce class sizes and increase one-on-one time is futile. Next, as it was with lock-downs, masking up, and vaccinations-conservatives will not participate in teacher 'parenting' and rearing of their children—especially when a false signal (mistake in judgement) incident/s is made.

HIPPA law changes (for greater exposure). Surely, you know why HIPPA was needed in the first place—whole medical histories were being 'scouted' and 'outed' in the community/ies. And we can surely see that some conservatives, like Trump, love them some privacy. Even when they act to remove it from a girl/woman and her doctors.

Wow - what a trophy.  Beats the hell outta my medal

Wanna trade?

[Deleted]

Sorry, but can you elaborate?

When I say AR-15, I mean AR-15 style rifle, and what I really mean is a rifle that checks off the same set of attributes.

So if legislatures are writing adequate legislation it would outlaw both of those rifles.

So perhaps we can all accept that the 2nd amendment isn't unlimited and States can ban certain types and even styles of guns

An uninfringed right to keep and bear arms doesn't imply an uninfringed right to manufacture and sell arms (as along as the ability to keep and bear arms isn't infringed to a meaningless absurdity).

What I am trying to say is there should not be much of a constitutional question about banning certain kinds of guns, attachments, and certain kinds of ammunition from being sold to civilians.

At the end of the day there should be a reasonable standard that law makers and courts can agree on. The fact that there isn't has more to do with corruption now than anything else. Even our highest court seems to have a price tag. And everyone here would spit out their beer if anyone suggested that our politicians are not regularly on sale to the highest bidder.

Yet sometimes the necessary gets done.

I forgot about that movie.  It was a very good action movie and I enjoyed watching it.  Of course Denzel is always fun to watch.  I know of the show CHiPs but don’t think that I ever saw it.

There are several aftermarket carbon fiber stocks available for the Ruger that make it look every bit as "scary" as any AR variant. 

A buddy has a stainless Mini-14 in a bullpup stock and it is intimidating to look at.

64% of registered voters support or strongly support banning assault-style weapons.

Do you support or oppose banning assault-style weapons?

What do the multi-position switches do?

The top one is the one I was required to qualify on in the Air Force

The top one is NOT used by any military.  

Selector Switch:

AR  Safe or Semi

M-16  Safe, Semi or Auto (three round burst now)

Also, the M16 is being removed from most military inventories and being replaced with the M4.

Still three round burst in auto though right?
My time was still the M-16A1.    Full rock and roll .....

The 3 round burst was initially put in place to conserve ammunition and assist with ensuring you were still on target.

My time was with the M16A2 and the M4.

a small caliber, lever-action rifle is more than capable of keeping the animal at bay

It’s also more than capable of killing a roomful of children, albeit at a slightly slower pace because of the lever action. Still, it’s no musket.

Eliminating ALL semiautomatic firearms - including handguns - is an interesting thought, though.

capable of killing a roomful of children, albeit at a slightly slower pace

Slowing down the ability to kill is important. It increases the odds of escape for victims and even successful confrontation if that is the only resort.

Yeah, it’s definitely an interesting line to draw. It addresses at least part of the problem head-on. Technology-wise, it takes us back to say, the early 1880s. I’m sure that would freak a lot of people out.

It means getting rid of more than just ARs, though. All semiautomatic rifles would have to go, including the kazillion 10-22s out there, and any semiauto shotgun. Every semiauto handgun, including double action revolvers would have to be illegal.

Big job.

You're not taking my shot gun away from me

Unless it’s a pump, we might have to.

Big job.

A lot of the problem isn't with the existing guns in gun collections it is with the easy access to guns on the legal market. A lot of these shootings are done by guns that were easy to purchase. Banning the manufacture and sale of certain items will make them harder for deranged individuals with an obsessive impulse to follow through on a mass shooting, at least with such effective weapons.

I understand the desire to collect something that you get passionate about owning. I must have close to a dozen guitars. But we have a national gun problem to solve and the answer can't always be "that won't work because..."

We have just about the worst gun problem in the world here in the USA.

"I must have close to a dozen guitars."

I hope you don't get accused of being in a position to strum someone to death.

It's not hard for guitar players to get complaints from their neighbors about their guitar playing but it is also not that hard to go about your guitar playing without getting complaints from the neighbors.

Somewhere in there, I think there is a parallel for gun ownership.

I can't imagine neighbours' complaints unless you were playing an amplified electric guitar.  What kind of guitars did you have?  I had a collection of stringed instruments (all accoustic) that I gave to my son when i left Canada.

A vintage Martin D-28, a 1959 Gibson B-45-12, a vintage 5-string banjo, an Appalachian double-stringed dulcimer, a mandolin and an autoharp.  At one time I had a hand-made flamenco/classical guitar that I brought back from Spain but it split all to hell due to the change of climate. 

Most of my guitars are cheap guitars, many of them electric.

The electric ones get played into multitrack headphone equipment or into a computer. Nothing amazing going on there. Rhythm guitar and lead at best.

I have a Gibson ES-175 in the collection and a Heritage H-575 but I think the best guitar in the house is my wife's $300 Washburn. If I recall correctly it's a mahogany body with a cedar top. It's great for fingerpicking.

I really need to sell off most of these guitars, now that I am thinking about it.

I’ve never complained about guitar playing or gun ownership.  What have been your complaints?

What have been your complaints?

Most of my complaints have been that gun owners are too frequently using their guns to kill people for no good reason.

It's been a long time since I had anyone complained about my amplified guitar. What one quickly learns about electric guitars and apartments is that there is no volume setting on any guitar amp that will not be disturbing neighbors. So we move on to other setups that use headphones or we refocus our efforts on acoustic instruments.

I would say that some gun collectors may need to rethink their gun collections.

I would say that some gun collectors may need to rethink their gun collections.

Some perhaps.  Any idea how many collectors commit crimes or kill people for good or no good reason with their collection?

Any idea how many collectors commit crimes or kill people for good or no good reason with their collection?

I have no idea. I would say people who like to own guns merely to look at them probably don't one day wake up with a desire to go shoot up a high school. But there is a problem with the mere existence of some guns. If your passion was collecting cars you would have to go to some pains to make sure some of them were road worthy. 

There are simply some guns, some types of accessories, and some types of ammunition that we need to get out of the hands of the civilian population. These can be described. If they can regulate cars they can regulate guns.

I have little patience for the people with their patriot fantasies that they need these guns in case they need to storm the Capitol Building again in 2024. Who's kidding who? The Dems are going to lose the next couple of national elections fair and square.

The only guitar that anyone could have considered dangerous was Woodie Guthrie's with the words "THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS" written on the face.  However, Jimi Hendrix played a really MEAN guitar, especially The Star Spangled Banner at Woodstock which has to be one of the most iconic electric guitar performances of all time. 

Sorry, I guess i've been going pretty off topic here on your article. 

I have little patience for the people with their patriot fantasies that they need these guns in case they need to storm the Capitol Building again in 2024.

I have no patience for them.

Notwithstanding that I'm known to be anti-gun, I don't think gun collectors who collect them as objects to cherish, admire, respect and be proud to possess are the danger.  I used to collect coins and my son used to collect baseball cards and anyone who collects because it's fun to do so, if not an investment, are not the persons to be concerned about.  Can you imagine Charleton Heston, as deeply an advocate of guns as he was (and he had a huge collection, photos of which I once posted on NT) going into a school to shoot kids?  How many who are devoted gun collectors have ever been involved in using them for a mass murder?

That's just the thing. Guns are on a spectrum, like most things. Anything which can be used for good can to varying degrees be used for bad. Only a fool should want to take away the good use purposes of guns. But, like any tool, guns have to be kept away from kids and well fools! Of course, the criminal element should not have guns but that issue is beyond the scope of people who go out with a suicide 'mission' in mind or spree killings.

The biggest issue I see with guns is not that this nation has a gun problem. It is that this nation's republican leaders have taken a 'hands off' strategy to gun proliferation. Thus, we are sitting ducks in our country's 'big pond.'

I don't think gun collectors who collect them as objects to cherish, admire, respect and be proud to possess are the danger.

The guns themselves are the problem.

People will need to find other hobbies than collecting assault weapons and building up arsenals capable of going to war with.

Can you imagine Charleton Heston, as deeply an advocate of guns as he was (and he had a huge collection, photos of which I once posted on NT) going into a school to shoot kids?

They probably took his car keys away before they put a lock on the gun cabinet.

I have little patience for the people with their patriot fantasies that they need these guns in case they need to storm the Capitol Building again in 2024.

Maybe you should tell the rioters that stormed the Capitol Building that they should have brought firearms, a lot of them? All that angst and not a single gun to be found among the rioters. Only firearms were on the Capitol police. The only weapon discharged was by a Capital police officer against an unarmed rioter. Her screaming must have been really painful to listen to- just before he shot her. 

I have little patience for people with their fantasies about events that never occurred; and chances are never will occur.

I have little patience for people pretend the crowd did not have armed individuals:

Police seized alarming number of weapons on Capitol rioters, court documents show

Good luck getting my Mossberg 590.  But mine legally.  Fell in love with it clearing buildings in Afghanistan.

With respect for your service. Thank you.

I have little patience for people with their fantasies about events that never occurred; and chances are never will occur.

Also, there was this guy arrested on January 6:

Armed man arrested near Capitol with unauthorized inauguration pass, 500 rounds of ammo

A Virginia man was arrested at a Washington checkpoint near the Capitol with an "unauthorized" inauguration pass, a gun and more than 500 rounds of ammunition, according to Capitol police.

It's not like people didn't try to bring guns on Jan 6. 

It’s also more than capable of killing a roomful of children, albeit at a slightly slower pace because of the lever action. Still, it’s no musket. Eliminating ALL semiautomatic firearms - including handguns - is an interesting thought, though.

You're right, a lever-action rifle is no musket, but it also isn't a semi-automatic.

Watched as a kid in the sixties................

en.wikipedia

As did I, a had a cap gun version.  The roll of caps would advance ever time you operated the lever, loved it.

I did too

And then there was the Fanner 50 - 

Where were you 60 years ago?  I would have walked tall with a Fanner 50 revolver and holster.

Got one while in Japan in '59 for Christmas - they had just come out and Dad, an ol' farm boy, was trying to teach me proper firearm safety.  'Course being a quick draw always impressed yer buds, eh?

In fact, still have that one.  Looks like crap, still goes click/click, can't find caps anymore and I'm way too slow on the draw to win any contests.

Got one while in Japan in '59 for Christmas -

I think that I would have loved being a military brat. I went on active duty in 76 and didn't plan on a career but loved overseas assignments.  I did 13 of my 24 years overseas and am grateful for it.  

As a Brat, only went to Germany and Japan.  Active Duty Marines/CG did Vietnam, Okinawa, Japan and Puerto Rico.  Got to do tons of TDY's while working DoD - Ascension Islands, St. Thomas, Greenland, Canada, and New York - can't beat the sights and the experiences.

Now as I think about it, as a brat, I probably would have gotten busted in Germany, LoL.  I needed some years and military experience to mature.

Oh yeah - know that well.  As a Brat, spent many hours under the microscope of the AP's/MP's and Dad's number was on their speed dial.  Hell, he even had two "interviews" with CG's because of my "activities".  But, I had a blast.

“…albeit at a slightly slower pace…”

Should that become the metric, we have already lost. 

Would be nice, wouldn’t it? To take back that which was ceded so long ago..

Most anti gunners understanding of legal, law abiding gun ownership is sophomoric at best.

It’s a sad state of affairs in this country but at least they aren’t letting a good crisis go to waste.    One of the top tenets for a card carrying liberal these days.

Most anti gunners understanding of legal, law abiding gun ownership is sophomoric at best.

Getting lectured on the constitution by the hunting license chorus is a freshman's hazing at best.

Opinions do vary and I rest my case.

Opinions do vary and I rest my case.

Tank God for small favors.

Apparently for many, the gunsplainer is necessary.

I think gunsplainers are mainly necessary the gunsplainers.

The rest of us would happily do without.

I think gunsplainers are mainly necessary the gunsplainers.

I can see that.

We don’t need more gun control per se.

What we could use is a little more triggered control.

It’s a sad state of affairs in this country but at least they aren’t letting a good crisis go to waste.

We hear this a lot, but it’s not fair anymore. How many mass shootings have we had just in the last couple weeks? The last ten years? How many compared to literally any other country on Earth? That’s beyond “a crisis.” It’s a chronic disease and we aren’t getting any closer to curing it by playing at political drama.

I do value my rights, but I also value the 4th grade. I value church congregations and hospital workers. Every argument that disrespects the dead by equating them to political ideology or something mundane like tax dollars or personal convenience is a bad argument.

It’s a chronic disease and we aren’t getting any closer to curing it by playing at political drama.

Mental illness is the chronic disease that the politicians are refusing to address at all.

Shouldn't the goal be to fund national school programs to identify, counsel and even isolate the mentally ill so they don't harm, threaten and kill the people around them?

I just read a discussion on how foolish it is for people to get close to buffalo.  It is just as foolish and dangerous to get close to the mentally ill (of any age) whether they have a gun or not. 

If the politicians actually addressed the mental illness concerns, most of them wouldn't be in office.

If the politicians actually addressed the mental illness concerns, most of them wouldn't be in office.

They also may have to quit using as much hate speech to paint their opponents as evil incarnate so as not to incite their mentally unstable supporters to use violence to eliminate the opposition.

Here's How Congress Is Protected (nbcnews.com)

June 14, 2017, 10:27 AM CDT  /  Updated June 14, 2017, 1:22 PM CDT

By   Benjy Sarlin

Mental illness is the chronic disease that the politicians are refusing to address at all.

In 1980 Carter signed the MHSA which provided more funding to fix the horrible way mental health was handled "back in the day", primarily as state institutions. 

People remember the poor conditions, forced

institutionalizations made infamous by a few movies.

In true political scorched earth policies, Regan fought hard to defund and repeal MHSA

throughout his 2 terms

I remember when the doors to Philadelphia's Byberry Mental Health Institution announced its closure in 1987 releasing thousands into the far northeast neighborhoods creating instant crime & homelessness.

 I worked farther and farther away from Philly and was working in Norristown

which had a similar tsunami of madness roaming the streets when the remaining

Byberry patients were transferred to Norristown and turned loose in the community.

Now we have swung from archaic mental health prisons to

only committing people willing to be committed if they can afford it.

There has to be a better solution than waiting till they kill

unsuspecting children, students, shoppers or concert goers.

There has to be a better solution than waiting till they kill unsuspecting children, students, shoppers or concert goers.

I agree. 

Suggestions?

Mental illness is the chronic disease that the politicians are refusing to address at all.

I’d love to see more concern for mental health in this country, but I don’t know that politicians are refusing to address it. The problem is the debate over reducing gun violence has become mental health or limits on guns - and there is no in between where we consider some of both. If we could pick just one thing that most of us agree on and actually do it, that would be a good beginning.

Shouldn't the goal be to fund national school programs to identify, counsel and even isolate the mentally ill so they don't harm, threaten and kill the people around them?

Unfortunately, we don’t always know who that is until they kill someone. Many behaviors we might call “red flags” can also be perfectly innocent.

It is just as foolish and dangerous to get close to the mentally ill (of any age) whether they have a gun or not. 

That’s an overly broad statement that demonizes a lot of people who aren’t remotely dangerous.

That’s an overly broad statement that demonizes a lot of people who aren’t remotely dangerous.

Not meant to demonize anyone.  I should have expanded on what I meant.  This also involves mental damage trying to understand the other person's lack of healthy boundaries or appease a person's unbalanced expectations of relationships.   

There is a vast difference in healthy relationships and unhealthy relationships.  Mental health issues take many forms, but most people don't want to parent their peers, boyfriends/girlfriends or spouses.  Nor is it mentally healthy for them to attempt it.  The emotional toll not only affects mental health, but it can also harm the victim's physical health.   This is what I meant by foolish and dangerous.  

There are various lists of relationship red flags on the internet.  I will cite one example at the link below.  

10 Relationship Red Flags | Psychology Today

And one citation on effects of emotional abuse.

Effects of Emotional Abuse on Your Brain, Relationships, and Health (psychcentral.com)

Mental illness is the chronic disease that the politicians are refusing to address at all.

When they start talking about mental illness after an event like this it is something which serves to distract from the real underlying issue. 

This killer in Uvalde was exhibiting classic signs of having a psychopathic personality disorder. That's not a treatable mental illness. People with treatable mental illnesses usually represent more of a threat to themselves than people around them. And even untreatable psychopaths don't all cart themselves off to become murderers. They are mostly just a constant source of grief in other ways to people around them.

The problem we are having with these spectacular mass shootings is that guns suitable for mass murder are too easy to access. Why should anyone be able to access them at all? 

It’s entirely fair.    

Do you value that 4th grade class more than the kids getting shot every week in drive by shootings?    They far outnumber these latest “crisis” reactions.    Where is the daily outcry in these cities with the strictest gun laws in the country?    So our politicians talk about outlawing evil black guns when the weapon of choice for these killers are handguns.    It makes no sense.    

Hell, not long ago many of those same cities were talking about defunding the police.    Making it even more difficult to control the mentally unstable and criminal element.   It makes no sense.

Why aren’t more schools enacting better campus rules and protections for those 4th graders.    That last one easily could have been stopped before he ever got to those kids with some basic entry controls.   It makes no sense.

There were so many red flags with that one kid it was like the 4th of July and yet little to nothing was done to avoid the problem he caused.    It makes no sense

So the anti crowd can wring their hands, wail and cry for controls that accomplish little but to push a partisan agenda that won’t fix the problem.    It makes no sense.

So yeah, the reactions to this latest series of shootings by mentally disturbed individuals make little sense to me or any other law abiding gun owner.    Law abiding citizens being unjustly demonized for the actions of a few that society has failed for one reason or another.    It makes no sense.

People with treatable mental illnesses usually represent more of a threat to themselves than people around them.

How so?

They are mostly just a constant source of grief in other ways to people around them.

A constant source of grief is emotional abuse .

Whether it is intentional or not, emotional abuse is still abuse and causes damage to the people who are forced to interact with them - especially children.  

This must be addressed on a government/societal level instead of pretending that this type of abuse is acceptable in any form.  

Effects of Emotional Abuse on Your Brain, Relationships, and Health (psychcentral.com)

Children who experience emotional abuse may go through some of these effects:

• Behavioral changes.   Children may     “act out,” show signs of   attention deficity hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) , and sometimes become abusive toward other children. Self-harm and suicidal thoughts can also be effects of emotional abuse on a child.
• Emotional development.   Children who experience emotional abuse might have more difficulty managing their responses to difficult emotions. They may also seem less emotionally mature than their peers, as abuse could make it harder to grow a trusting relationship with their own emotions.
• Maladaptive coping.   Research from 2014   highlights how childhood emotional abuse can lead to the development of unhelpful ways of coping in women who have experienced it. For example, it can lead to numbing or   disconnecting from emotions . Other kids may resort to fantasy and imagination, leading to avoidant behaviors and isolation over time.

How so?

When it comes to violence: suicide.

When it comes to their lives: an inability to function and hold down a job.

There are instances of people with paranoid schizophrenia who are so confused that they think there is a vast conspiracy against them and they under siege by the entire world. This is rare and these people don't execute these plans to mow down people with assault rifles. They lose their shit and someone calls 911.

These shootings in Uvalde and Buffalo, NY are not examples of people with "mental health" issues. They didn't need talking therapy or prescriptions. They needed to be prevented from buying guns, particularly assault weapons, and from buying body armor.

There's a trap here with the mental health trope that we shouldn't be oblivious too. The pharmaceutical industry would love to see Americans pour more prescription drugs down their children's throats. What better excuse here than to keep America safe? As much as possible, taking drugs for mental health issues should be a decision that the mentally ill get to participate in. Pete Davidson from SNL is an example of a high functioning celebrity entertainer who has bipolar disorder. He takes his meds. He recommends that people take their meds like he does. (I recommend that he stay the hell away from Kim Kardashian, but that's a rant for another day.)

Do you value that 4th grade class more than the kids getting shot every week in drive by shootings?    They far outnumber these latest “crisis” reactions.    Where is the daily outcry in these cities with the strictest gun laws in the country?    So our politicians talk about outlawing evil black guns when the weapon of choice for these killers are handguns.    It makes no sense.    

Perhaps you should consider this for what it is. This nation has to do something about the wholesale slaughter of its citizenry. A life is worth more than an gun (right). And to be clear before you attack it, I am not talking about removal of gun rights from law-abiding citizens that would be ridiculous, so don't come at me that way.

People, mental 'cases' are seeking out "gun-free zones" where they exist in order to launch an attack. These so-called, "mental cases" are suiting up (armoring up) for an attack. That is deliberate. Searches of their computers illustrate they know how to do research, act upon the results, and execute their intentions.

As for a pet peeve of yours. Black on Black crime is self-hatred and I, a black man, condemn it.

However, that is not what is happening in random mass shootings which affect innocent men, women, and especially children. Trying to conflate the two, random mass murder and 'organized' crime is specious. For one thing, adult violence should not be equated with violence against children. There is a fine distinction.

Do you value that 4th grade class more than the kids getting shot every week in drive by shootings?

Nope. They’re all bad. Can we get back to discussing the actual problems rather than deflecting with fake concerns about whether we are worrying about the right deaths enough?

Where is the daily outcry in these cities with the strictest gun laws in the country?

There actually is an outcry. The stories are covered. People discuss it.

It should be common sense, though, that the death of 20 school children all at once shocks the national conscience in a way that a random single death - especially in an area already known for crime - does not.

But I see this argument all the time and it’s not really about solving the everyday street crime problem. It’s really just a way of trying to get people to stop talking about gun regulations.

This nation has to do something about the wholesale slaughter of its citizenry.

In 1974, we had 16.3 firearm homicides per 100,000 people.  In 2020, there were 13.6 gun deaths per 100,000 people.

We have done something that saved 3 more people per 100,000 or about 3,300 people.

I have decided to forego chatter with you because it is a gross mismanagement of time, but I will respond this time with a thought:

Do statistics 'cry'? That is, at the ground-level where violence happens numbers do not tell the story of the pain, tears, and misery of those attempting to 'right the ship' of their upside down nights.

Apathy in this is cruel.

In the 70's or 80's thereabouts we used to hear a popular saying: "Lord! Don't let me become (just) a damn statistic!"

And with that shared, I am done for now.

I have decided to forego chatter with you because it is a gross mismanagement of time,

I’m sorry that it takes so long for you to think of a response.

numbers do not tell the story of the pain,

Of course not, but they do help to inform risk analysis and whether a fear is reasonable.

Suggestions?

I am watching the red flag law in Florida. So far I believe they have denied thousands of people from being able to have a gun.

We are talking here mostly about gun violence and whether mental health services are a relevant way to deal with gun violence.

You are talking about social harm that mostly has nothing to do with gun violence.

The NRA trots out mental health services every time somebody shoots up a school with an assault rifle and for the most part mental health services has nothing to do with it.

Depressed teenagers is not relevant the relevant lens from which to view the Uvalde shooting. This young man tortured small animals for fun. That's not depression.

You are talking about social harm that mostly has nothing to do with gun violence.

Really?  I haven't read any study that states this.  Would you kindly share the source of your fact?

Details wry, details ....

Nope. They’re all bad. Can we get back to discussing the actual problems rather than deflecting with fake concerns about whether we are worrying about the right deaths enough?

Deflecting with fake concerns?    A majority of gun deaths are fake concerns?     That my friend is a huge part of your problem

There actually is an outcry. The stories are covered. People discuss it.

Not even close.   Look at NTers for proof of that.    Look at all the seeds related to the newest “mass shootings.”    How many’s seeds do you see for all the gun deaths that took place last week in places like Chicago or Baltimore.

Again, not even close.

But I see this argument all the time and it’s not really about solving the everyday street crime problem. It’s really just a way of trying to get people to stop talking about gun regulations.

Yep and I see that rationalization all the time as well.    Again, making sure a good crisis doesn’t go to waste.    And you talk about using common sense.   That is really rich.

Red flag laws can be a huge Pandora’s box.

Its not as black and white as some try to make it.

Details

They can get pesky.

It's all a proven mystery and humans would can fix all sorts of nature problems are damned to fix them one.  Yeah right, because some humans don't want to fix it.

Do statistics 'cry'?

No.  They inform.

That is, at the ground-level where violence happens numbers do not tell the story of the pain, tears, and misery of those attempting to 'right the ship' of their upside down nights.

They tell the story that it happens less often than it used to, despite your declarations that it's not safe in America anymore.

Apathy in this is cruel.

Refusal to become hysterical does not constitute apathy.

In the 70's or 80's thereabouts we used to hear a popular saying:"Lord! Don't let me become (just) a damn statistic!"

I think we'd be happy if you just accepted them when presented.

This young man tortured small animals for fun. That's not depression.

No, but it's certainly a mental health issue.

Lol .... a proven mystery?   

Hilarious!

Deflecting with fake concerns?    A majority of gun deaths are fake concerns?     That my friend is a huge part of your problem

I stand by my assessment. We can walk and chew bubblegum as a society. We can address mass shootings and street crime. But you aren't offering - or considering - proposals to address either problem. Instead, you take the topic on the table and say "what about this other thing?" That's why it's a fake concern. It's whataboutism.

How many’s seeds do you see for all the gun deaths that took place last week in places like Chicago or Baltimore.

So you want to find significance in the number of seeded stories on NT? Lame.

Again, making sure a good crisis doesn’t go to waste.

You waste your tribal clichés on the wrong person. I'm far from anti-gun. I own several firearms myself. My only agenda is to save lives. I don't think we can stop all killing, but we should be able to get it into the same standard deviation as the rest of the developed world.

But when your whole approach is "whatabout this other problem" or "don't let a good crisis blah blah blah," that tells me you don't have an open mind and aren't interested in solving the problem. 

I stand by my assessment.

As do I, word for word.    

I never inferred  you were anti gun but the paranoia that assumed I did, speaks volumes.

That said, you can save the sophomoric insults for someone else.   At this point I could really care less what you think on this topic.

Yeah, statistics don't cry. People do. You can bull patty some of the people sometimes, but you can not bull patty all the people all the time. You want to pretend that feelings are irrelevant, why? Because you are apathetic towards literals. Ultimately, that attitude leads to a bad place where you dehumanize and otherize your fellow citizens. Then you can abuse and demonize the "Other."

Well, your conservative community and tribe matters to you and you most definitely have feelings for them. It is selfish to come in here and be apathetic in discussions about others!

"Sophmoric," "Juvenile," "Childish.'  There is the Sparty On triumvirate of hackneyed words.

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[Deleted]

[Deleted]

Why repeat them then?

No, but it's certainly a mental health issue.

Your confidence in that statement is not shared by the mental health profession:

Psychology has long debated as to what defines a psychopathic personality disorder and whether it is a mental illness or not. To date the best we can say about psychopathy is that it is an unhealthy conscience, lacking in morality and empathy toward others.

Is Psychopathy a Mental Illness?

Would you kindly share the source of your fact?

Comment 3.2.11.

It doesn't mention guns once.

You are talking about social harm that mostly has nothing to do with gun violence.

As I have noted repeatedly, until we acknowledge and address the root causes of violence in society then banning guns is just a feel-good exercise.  All we are doing is making the most vulnerable even more vulnerable.  The greatest threat to the well-being of humans is other humans whether they have guns or not.  

Whether we like it or not, whether we acknowledge it or not, humans are born into a hierarchy worldwide.  This system alone causes much stress and violence as people compete to gain power or maintain power over their fellow humans - our fellow primates.

acknowledge and address the root causes of violence in society

The rise of narcissism is another factor.  

Why Is Narcissism Increasing Among Young Americans? | Psychology Today

Over the years, these questionnaires have been administered to many samples of college students, and analyses that bring all of the data together reveal that the average narcissism score has been steadily increasing and the average empathy score has been steadily decreasing ever since the questionnaires were developed [3.] The changes are highly significant statistically and sufficiently large that approximately 70 percent of students today score higher on narcissism and lower on empathy than did the average student 30 years ago.

What accounts for this historical rise in narcissism and decline in empathy?

[3] So, most of the speculation has to do with changes in the world in which young people are growing up.

Some of the speculation has centered on the misguided “ self-esteem ” movement that began to take shape in the 1980s.[4.] Parents, teachers, and others involved with children were advised to build up children’s self-esteem through frequent praise. Many parents, especially, began telling their children how beautiful, smart, and generally wonderful they are, or began bragging about their kids to others in front of them. Television programs for kids featured songs about being “special” and lessons to the effect that “you can be anything you want to be.” In competitions, everyone got some kind of trophy. Perhaps some of that actually got incorporated into the thinking of young people growing up in this era. They may to some degree have grown up believing what they were told. To the degree that they did, they would become narcissists, because the things they were told are exactly the kinds of things that narcissists believe about themselves.

Another possible culprit, which makes even more sense to me, is the increased pressure on children and adolescents to achieve, where achievement is defined as beating others in competitions.[5.] When achievement is defined as getting the best grades in school, getting into the best college, winning individual sporting competitions, and the like, then the focus of thought is on the self and others are seen as obstacles, or as people you must defeat, or as people you must manipulate to serve your ends. If the purpose of a child’s life is to build a strong résumé, as many parents seem to believe, then, of course, the child is going to grow up “looking out for number one” and not have much time or concern for others. In these conditions, young people might volunteer for causes that will look good on a résumé, but not take time to help others purely out of compassion, where it will not show up on a résumé.

Closely related to the increased pressure to achieve is the decline in play.

Over the past several decades, we have witnessed a continuous and, overall, dramatic decline in children’s freedom and opportunities to play with other children, undirected by adults.

In other essays I have linked this decline to the well-documented rise in  depression  and  anxiety  among children and adolescents ( here ) and to the recently documented decline in  creativity  ( here ). Free play is the primary means by which children learn to control their own lives, solve their own problems, and deal effectively with  fear  and  anger —and thereby protect themselves from prolonged anxiety and depression. Free play is also the primary means by which children maintain and expand upon their creative potentials. Now, I suggest, free social play—that is, play with other kids, undirected by adults--is also the primary means by which children overcome narcissism and build up their capacity for empathy.

Play, by definition, is always voluntary, and that means that players are always free to quit. If you can’t quit, it’s not play. All normal children have a strong biological drive to play with other children. That’s part of human child nature—an extraordinarily important part of it. In such play, every child knows that the others can quit at any time and will quit if they are not happy. Therefore, to keep the fun going, each child is motivated to keep the other children happy. To do that, children must listen to one another, read into what they are saying, and, in general, get into one another’s mind so as to know what the other wants and doesn’t want. If a child fails at that and consistently bullies others or doesn’t take their views into account, the others will quit, leaving the offending child alone. This is powerful   punishment   that leads the offender to try harder next time to see from others’ points of view. Thus, in their social play, children continuously practice and build upon their abilities to empathize, negotiate, and cooperate.

Moreover, children, unlike adults, are rarely effusive in their praise of one another. They have little tolerance for anyone who thinks that he or she is “special,” or is in some way above the rules, or is a natural   leader   who should get his or her way all the time. Playmates are often highly skilled in deflating one another’s egos, through such means as   humor   and insults, or through outright rejection if those means fail.

Spot on,  look no further than NT’s for proof of that.

Spot on,

I really recommend watching the video linked in previous comment, also.

I have watched Sapolsky's series of lectures on human behavior - some of the videos more than once.  I find it all fascinating and enlightening.  I'm amazed we haven't already annihilated our species.

You can bull patty some of the people sometimes, but you can not bull patty all the people all the time.

It certainly does not appear to discourage you from trying.

You want to pretend that feelings are irrelevant,

Just the irrational ones.

why?

Because they're irrational.  And because the people who can't control them tend to run around demanding everybody else change behavior.

Ultimately, that attitude leads to a bad place where you dehumanize and otherize your fellow citizens.

I reject the idea that irrational people have the right to make the rest of us behave irrationally.

And let's be clear.  No.  I'm not willing to make other people change behavior because you have "feelings".

Well, your conservative community and tribe matters to you 

No. I don't give a shit about their feelings, either.  Nor do they expect me to.  Welcome to the world of adult men.  Sorry if nobody told you that this is how it works.

Now.... You have yet to come up with a single original thought that you haven't borrowed from some leftist blog somewhere.  You cannot muster a reply to even the most rudimentary questions about any solution you might suggest.

You have clawed desperately at any and every type of distraction in your attempts to conceal that obvious deficiency.

So...one more time...

Do you have ANY part of an idea about what action you want to see done?  Or is this one more of those issues you just intend to complain about forever?

Adult men? You think that you have cornered the 'market' on being adult? That's just plain stupid.  The rest of your comment is just 'heat' and lacking in insight.  That's all.

Oh! Yeah, you give a damn about feelings. For one thing you would not be here-with this bull patty attitude if you did not have some regard for discussion. So cut this denial crap. Unless you have given up on more people than liberals-you are telling an untruth.

That's interesting and educational.

Thx

How does that idea go along with this?

Psychopathy is a mental disorder according to both the Wakefield definition cited in this study and American Psychiatric Association criteria (American Psychiatric Association, 2000). More studies of the harm done to family members by psychopathic individuals are needed

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3573869/#:~:text=Psychopathy%20is%20a%20mental%20disorder,by%20psychopathic%20individuals%20are%20needed.

So that's a "no", you don't have any fucking clue about what to do on gun violence.  

OK then.

Yeah, okay then: Pay me on congress' behalf and I think I can be persuaded to come up with somethin'-somethin'.  See how that works?  Otherwise, I don't have to offer up anything I don't want to. Why? Because I am not your 'slave.' Therefore, I will not be bossed by you.

Also, most of the suggestions offered here are coming from right-wing sourcing anyway. So much for your originality.

always someone else's job and concern

Yeah, okay then: Pay me on congress' behalf and I think I can be persuaded to come up with somethin'-somethin'.

So not only do you not have any idea, you don't give a shit...unless you get paid to.    Ahhh.  I see. 

Yeah. Put up and pay me or shut up. Or, accept whatever I share—or not. I am pretty sure, some conservatives understand the cost of consulting. At the end of the day when you ignore and further obfuscate on gun safety,  my time will have been properly valued and compensated.

Now take that over to the some conservative think-tank 'bank' for consideration.

[Deleted]

hard to come by!

Not on here it's not.

[Deleted,] knowing they will get their asses handed to them in November and their lame duck president will be able to do squat.

[Deleted]

And one more thing about this, since for whatever reason, we seem to be talking pass each other (perhaps?): I don't care what congress comes up with that's bi-partisan - just do it. And when 'doing it' make it something wholesome and good for the safety of the nation and citizenry.

 I don't care about democratic or republican 'duking it out' for bans or oversaturation of gun products. MY ONLY INTEREST IS IN THE PEACE and SAFETY THAT CONGRESS is sworn to do something about.

Instead of seating around on their thumbs or sending out big shit talkers to 'jack' the issue around. . . JUST DO IT!

I hope I am clear now. Because, honestly, I am well pass the stage of arguing over who/what/where/how about gun safety. It is time for legislatures and congress to ACT and shut up following doing so.

The 'feedback' is on the streets of the country. The youth doing this killing are the 'canary' in the coal mine! We're supposed to stop them from hurting themselves!

MY ONLY INTEREST IS IN THE PEACE and SAFETY THAT CONGRESS is sworn to do something about.

Here is the Congressional Oath of Office: “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.”

I don't see anything about peace and safety.

Sapolsky's series of lectures on human behavior

Thank you very much.  I found this intro to be very interesting and was happy to see the whole series on You Tube.  I look forward to watching and learning.

What I would say is this.

Psychopathy doesn't respond to treatment. Telling us we are going to beef up our mental health services to decrease the incidences of psychopaths getting their hands on assault weapons is focusing on the wrong variable.

Harm done to family members by psychopaths is a real thing. Parents who emotional abuse their children and children who steal from their parents are real problems. Victims of family psychopaths probably need therapy to help them recover from the ordeal.

But none of that has much to do with what we just saw in Uvalde. There are a lot of psychopaths and there are a lot of assault weapons available for them to arm themselves with.

Talking about mental health services is great. But the Uvalde shooter was not a person with treatable mental illness. Holding up a bloodied bag of dead kittens for the internet to see is not a kid with mental problems that needs counseling and medication.

Telling us we are going to beef up our mental health services to decrease the incidences of psychopaths getting their hands on assault weapons is focusing on the wrong variable.

I don't think you're thinking of "beefing up mental health services" in the same way they are.  

But it's tough to say, as nobody seems willing to step up and propose what they know is going to be controversial and unpopular legislation.  If it's going to have any chance of actually being effective, it's going to be unpopular on several fronts.

But it's tough to say, as nobody seems willing to step up and propose what they know is going to be controversial and unpopular legislation.  If it's going to have any chance of actually being effective, it's going to be unpopular on several fronts.

Eureka! So you call yourself being "civilized" when you talk about 'futile' suggestions with others, while pretending that you can't relate to the black male on the thread who states repeatedly that congress should do the hard task of legislating and be a responsible party? Unbelievable, that in the 21st century some conservatives are still biased toward who is doing the 'speaking.'

". . .It's tough to say. .  . ."  You don't say there, Jack! Busted!

But it's tough to say, as nobody seems willing to step up and propose what they know is going to be controversial and unpopular legislation.

I have no problem repealing the second amendment.

A better solution than that might be the rewrite Justice Stevens suggested:

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms  when serving in the Militia  shall not be infringed.”

thenewstalkers

(I had no idea that State Militias were still an actual thing until I started reading up on the Second Amendment after the Uvalde shooting.)

Texas, New York and California have them. My guess is the rest of the 50 states do also. They differ from the National Guard in that they are solely controlled and activated by the governors of the respective states.

https: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_State_Guard

https: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Guard

https: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_defense_force

These are actual "well regulated militias" sanctioned by law with the purpose of maintaining the "security of a free state" as opposed to vague notions of "the militia" being all able bodied men over a certain unspecified age.

I have no problem repealing the second amendment.

You may as well say you have no problem colonizing Neptune.  It's more likely.

A better solution than that might be the rewrite Justice Stevens suggested:

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms  when serving in the Militia  shall not be infringed.”

Again, the level of agreement you're going to need to do anything like that is simply not going to happen.

We can't even agree on whether or not we should lock the doors to the schools.  Seriously.  We cannot agree that we should lock. the. damned. door.  

The question we need to be answering is "what can we actually achieve"?    We never ask that.  

Every time there is a school shooting, we hear the same set of ridiculous pie in the sky demands from people who won't listen to any other ideas, and that continues until the next shiny object on MSNBC distracts them to some new crisis.  

We're not going to redraft the 2nd Amendment.  We're not going to get a firearms ban.  We're not going to get an "assault weapons" ban. 

If liberals are extremely lucky, they might get a minimum age of 21 on semi-automatic rifles or universal background checks...neither of which is likely to actually be that helpful.

We can't even agree on whether or not we should lock the doors to the schools.  Seriously.  We cannot agree that we should lock. the. damned. door.

Such a simple "NO COST" solution until we can get something in place.  I think some people would rather have school shootings continue to try and ban an AR-15's.

In the UK, knives are now being banned when the gun ban didn't result in a more peaceful society.  It seems their government isn't addressing the problem of identifying, treating and/or isolating the violent boys/men in their society any better than it is happening in the US.

Knife crime in Britain hits record high as offence reported every 11 MINUTES (thesun.co.uk)

KNIFE crimes in England and Wales has soared to a record high, shocking new figures show today.

Offences involving blades rose six per cent, with a crime reported every 11 minutes.

Crimes involving a knife or sharp instrument rose to 46,265 for the year to March, according to figures released by the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

The number is 51 per cent higher than when data of this kind was first collected in 2011 and is the highest on record.

more info on knife bans

18 Knives That Are Illegal In The UK (With Picture) | Knife Pulse

Many different blades have been banned from use in the UK, including flick knives or disguised weapons like swordsticks. All eighteen knives on this list possess one or more qualities that can be considered lethal weapons. 

Only foldable knives with blade lengths shorter than three inches are approved to be carried in the UK. Blade length, curvature, or serration are causes for a knife being banned in the country.  

In some cases, a knife can be both an instrument for food preparation and a lethal weapon depending on how it’s used. Be sure not to carry around any type of blade necessary for your work if   law enforcement   officials consider them dangerous.

and punishments...

Ban on knives, firearms and offensive weapons comes into force - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

All weapons banned in public by the Criminal Justice Act 1988, including zombie knives, shuriken or death stars, and knuckledusters, will now also be banned in private, meaning people can no longer keep them at home.

Anyone unlawfully possessing a firearm covered by the ban will face up to 10 years in prison and those possessing one of the other weapons can be sentenced to up to 6 months’ imprisonment or a fine or both.

And in today's news from the UK...

Emeli Sande's rapper ex-boyfriend Hypo is stabbed to death during fight at party in London | Daily Mail Online

ongoing incident in Encino CA

LOS ANGELES — A man entered a hospital in Encino on Friday and stabbed three medical professionals, officials said.

The man was armed with a knife when he entered Encino Hospital Medical Center around 3:50 p.m., Los Angeles Police spokesman Officer Drake Madison said.

A doctor and two staff nurses were stabbed and transported to a trauma center, a representative for the hospital said.

The assailant is believed to be isolated to a room, sources said.

3 Stabbed in Attack Inside Encino Hospital (msn.com)

Encino stabbings - Search

When the attacker is identified, will he likely have a history of violence?

If he didn't before, he sure does now.

stabbed three medical professionals

Which is a whole lot less worse than shooting 19 medical professionals.

That would ban at least 2 drawers in my kitchen and many things in my toolbox and truckbox 

That would ban at least 2 drawers in my kitchen and many things in my toolbox and truckbox 

When they get through banning dangerous implements, we'll be lucky if we're allowed to have a pair of kindergarten safety scissors.

There goes my battery powered assault sawsall, as long as you pull the trigger it keeps cutting.  

They would prefer that we don’t, could put an eye out…

They would prefer that we don’t, could put an eye out…

I was thinking about the blunt edge.  However, after reading one reviewer praise the scissors because so far their children hadn't been able to cut one another with them, I am considering the possibility that US society should no longer be allowed to even own scissors.  Sad.  Very sad.

Amazon.com: Crayola My First Safety Scissors, Toddler Art Supplies, 3ct : Everything Else

So before the days of semi-automatics and AR type rifles there was no way of preventing racoons from eating all the chickens.  How come there are any chickens around these days that could possibly have survived such deprivation?

So before the days of semi-automatics and AR type rifles

was there as much violence in the US?  

Well, we had a Civil War.  Probably a lot of frontier justice that is not in the history books. Prohibition, gangsters, Bonnie and Clyde, the KKK,  the mafia, assorted presidents being assassinated or shot and 33,000 violent street gangs operating in the US today according to the FBI.

Gangs — FBI Some 33,000 violent street gangs, motorcycle gangs, and prison gangs are criminally active in the U.S. today. Many are sophisticated and well organized; all use violence to control neighborhoods and boost their illegal money-making activities, which include robbery, drug and gun trafficking, prostitution and human trafficking, and fraud. Many gang members continue to commit crimes even after being sent to jail.

Our government also is constantly either waging a war or seeking one out.  Our military budget is insane, but is supported by the majority of US elected reps - even the ones who are trying to ban guns in the US.  Our citizens have been fearmongered of the "other" for so long by our politicians that the politicians have valid reason to fear the monster they have created.  I am considering the possibility that the new US government bureau to limit free speech is an attempt by the government to regain control of the narrative.

The fearmongering is mental/emotional abuse.  I have cited elsewhere on the damages that this causes to a person's brain and therefore, emotions.  People, who are constantly operating in fear mode, make decisions based on emotion instead of logic.  Trying to use facts and logic in a discussion will not work with anyone who is in fight or flight mode.  This is one of the reasons that it seems the majority of US citizens were swayed to support invading Iraq because many (most) had been convinced that Hussein was responsible for the 9/11 attacks despite the fact that he had zero to do with it.  The narrative used to support the invasion was fluid and emotional.  Because it was another "lost" war, people are happy to forget it and erase it from memory.

The fearmongering is almost constant in this country.  It is mental abuse.  The violence we are experiencing is one of the results.  It goes hand in hand with drug/alcohol abuse to escape the emotional trauma of all of the fearmongering.  If a person cares about solving violence, then the many root causes should be examined, discussed and dealt with.  

When our government supports peace, then maybe our citizens will be mentally and physically healthy enough to do likewise.

Biden administration proposes larger defense budget to counter China, Russia - CNNPolitics

(CNN) President Joe Biden's   proposed fiscal year 2023 Pentagon budget includes $813 billion in spending for national defense, a 4% increase of $31 billion from the spending package signed into law earlier this month.

The Biden administration's defense budget   remains focused on China   as the primary strategic challenge, with an emphasis on strengthening European security in light of the threat posed by Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

"If you look across the board at their capability, their economy, China remains our most challenging strategic threat. That's what the strategy says, that's what the budget says," a senior defense official told reporters ahead of the budget release.

The Biden administration's proposal includes $773 billion in funding specifically for the Pentagon in the coming year. Congress, which will ultimately set spending levels for the federal government, is likely to boost that figure higher, just as it did in the fiscal year 2022 spending package.

Republicans quickly responded to the Pentagon's budget rollout by arguing it wasn't enough for the US military in the face of Russia's attack on Ukraine and China's military investments. Liberal Democrats, however, criticized the Biden administration for ramping up the defense budget at all.

While the 2023 budget proposal was crafted before Russia invaded Ukraine last month, the Biden administration's defense budget recognizes the "acute threat" posed by Russia, Defense Department budget documents say. Russia "is pursuing a political, economic and military strategy that seeks to fracture NATO," the Pentagon said.

The fearmongering is mental/emotional abuse.

Meh.  I like everything you said except this, which I'm not sure about.

Fear is a choice.  People choose fear, and can similarly choose not to fear.  People who buy into fearmongering are willing and often enthusiastic participants in the whole diseased process.  So I'm not sure I go along with the "abuse" thing, but it's an interesting idea.

To the rest of your point, the US has always been a violent place.  We just hear about it more than we used to because our information industry is so much more efficent.

“Fear is a choice.”

No.

Fear is a reality for kids, teachers, and anyone willing to acknowledge the facts. Death by gun is the greatest threat to our children…ignoring that fact is beyond the pale. 

In 2017, your chance of becoming a victim of a firearm homicide was 0.0044%

Compare those odds to every other country and see where we stand, or rather deflect. 

I thought we were talking about fear and if it was a choice.  I’m not fearful of getting murdered, are you?

Extrapolating that over a normal lifespan of 80 years that work out to about .4% of all Americans eventually dying by gunfire...

No

“I’m not fearful of getting murdered, are you?”

No, but we are old men who have lived a good life.

Too many of our children are being denied that same opportunity. 

Yes, it actually does. Math is fundamental...

I will go one step farther and agree that fear can be a choice and fear can be unreasonable. Why? Because some fears can be lessened, mitigated, or resolved. What is occurring here relevant to your expression of fear is real:

"Imminent" threat assessment. It casts a pall over the entire country in all corners.

Since at least the ninety's Columbine, we have been mentally stressed and 'alerted' to outbreaks of 'lunatic' shooting which are irrational, bigoted, and always committed again the community-at-large. That is, not against individuals. (A separate class of justified or unjustified death.)

What makes fear a real thing is a whole 'wing' of the democratic process for passage of laws that keep us safe is sitting on its thumbs defiant and insisting it will not alleviate the stresses to the system of gun violence. Much like this wing left the nation wide open to exposure to the Covid-19 virus which took the lives of potentially as many conservatives as it did liberals, those conservatives leave the entire country OPEN TO EXPOSURE to rampaging and murderous shooters who injury, murder, and stampede those who escape.

One last thing, when we discuss the dead in these gun crises moments we do not take comprehensive stock of those suffering with devastating injuries. Yes, the fear of injuries is real too.

Your chance of dying of heart disease in the US is exponentially higher.

Der!

Since at least the ninety's Columbine, we have been mentally stressed and 'alerted' to outbreaks of 'lunatic' shooting

My daughter started school in 2000.  My wife teaches at an elementary school.  We haven’t been mentally stressed out about mass school shootings.

Newsflash! Everything is not all about you...

Of course not, did I somehow imply that?

I am much more worried for my daughter about the multitude of effects from global warming than her being murdered.

Many politicians campaign on crime rate fear without ever talking the real numbers.

“Your chance of dying of heart disease in the US is exponentially higher.”

Indeed.

And given the facts, an individual can mitigate the things that cause the disease.

Somehow as a society, we are unable to process the facts when it comes to gun violence, thinking we are impervious, we are not directly in danger, or we are not directly affected.

The ignorance is exceeded only by the callousness. 

This type of apathy which showed up during the pandemic, masks wearing mitigation, and child (abuse) killings, is why reasonable people must do an 'end-run' around some conservatives standing in the middle of the path! Talk is a 'weapon' for them. Why? Because while talking, talking, talking, talking, and infinitely talking nothing is stopping the harm and abuse of gun deaths. And that is precisely what some conservatives prescription calls for - nothing!

My sister-in-law was murdered by an ex-lover with a firearm.  Her restraining order didn’t stop the bullet.  It was and remains one of my most painful experiences.

My father is a lifetime member of the NRA.  I learned firearm safety and marksmanship in NRA affiliated classes.  I hunted and competed on rifle and pistol ranges growing up.  

The NRA changed in the 70’s while I was going to college and entering the Army.  My first assignment was in Germany and I stayed for four years.  When I returned in 1981, the NRA wasn’t what it was and my support of it ended.

I taught my daughter to shoot but she was never interested in hunting.  I haven’t been hunting in 20.  I stopped going to any gun shows because the firearm culture in the US has dramatically changed with many enthusiasts and I don’t care for it.

I can support what I consider realistic firearm requirements.  Serious conversations include proposals that would remain Constitutional.  I rarely see that on this site.

Glad to see all the wonderful solutions that some liberals have dreamt up.

“Glad to see all the wonderful solutions that some liberals have dreamt up.”

As opposed to the numerous proposals drawn up by the conservative consortium? 

Every single comment, if there is even one offered up has the obligatory ‘but’ attached…accomplishing nothing, yet somehow placating the rabid base. 

Some of us notice he stated specifically the year of 2017.

Extrapolating based on one year is silliness.

Especially when the numbers vary so much year to year.

Because........math.

As opposed to not one single proposal drawn up by the conservative consortium.

Perhaps you should pay closer attention and read more.

I have repeatedly called for schools to be secured--something we as a nation don't need to wait on Congress or a President or a court to do.

Why wait on ineffective laws that may or may not be enforced instead of securing schools NOW?

Ya'll act as if Congress is going to do something significant and effective. I call bullshit on them doing either one.

Every single comment has the obligatory ‘but’ attached…accomplishing nothing yet somehow placating the rabid base. 

Not a single "but" in my comment.

Again, sounding like an opera singer warming up with thay, "Me Me Me Me Me", routine...

“I have repeatedly called for schools to be secured…”

And just what district do you represent?

This is a systemic cancer within our political body. An issue easy to talk about but sadly, rarely talked to. 

And just what district do you represent?

Please don't bore me with inane questions.

I’m sorry that you don’t like opera, it’s an acquired taste.

A discussion board is designed so that many people can join in on a discussion and suggest potential solutions.

How about offering some suggestions and explain why you would like to see that action undertaken rather than just lambast every comment being made.  Just a suggestion.

This is a systemic cancer within our political body. An issue easy to talk about but sadly, rarely talked to. 

Depending on politicians to do something effective seems like a waste of time to me. 

I propose something REAL and POSSIBLE and you offer nothing.

Snuffy, it is wrong to allow conservatives in Washington or in the state of Texas a pass on gun compromise in a process that requires two hands to form a "handshake." This is a state-level problem that nationalizes itself automatically when states fail to protect citizens of the nation. In this respect, coming up with local, municipalities-centric solutions is only a 'stop-gap' measure - subject to potential cancellation when the hierarchical structured officials decide to get involved. Better to settle it up there from the 'start.'

No passes for congress. These people, democrats and republicans, liberal and conservative, asked for leadership roles and got elected to those roles - now, it would be wrong to let them off for sitting on their thumbs, especially conservatives when the SYSTEM is giving them FEEDBACK to the stresses and strains occurring in it! 

Because while talking, talking, talking, talking, and infinitely talking nothing is stopping the harm and abuse of gun deaths.

What are you doing beyond talking, talking, talking to stop the harm and abuse of gun deaths?

And that is precisely what some conservatives prescription calls for - nothing!

And what, precisely, does your prescription call for?

it is wrong to allow conservatives in Washington or in the state of Texas a pass on gun compromise

What should that compromise look like?  Do you have any specific ideas?

No. Fear is a reality for kids, teachers, and anyone willing to acknowledge the facts. 

Fear is the reality for willing and enthusiastic participants who refuse to look at the data.

My daughter is a teacher in a very large public high school in the gun capital of the world...Texas.  She's not afraid, but then she's a math teacher, so she deals more with facts than feelings.

Death by gun is the greatest threat to our children…ignoring that fact is beyond the pale.

That depends on how you define children.     Or whether you just believe anything that validates your fear.

If we use a liberalized definition of "child" to include 18 &19 year-olds, and if gun deaths were random, the average American "child" has a 1 in 25,000 chance of dying by a gunshot they didn't intentionally fire themselves (according to the NEJM). That presumes the highly elevated 2020 trend does not revert to the mean. 

They have a 40% higher chance of being struck by lightning.  

But we all know gun deaths aren't random.  Black kids are 14 times more likely to be victims.  The killings are far more likely to happen at home than at school, handguns are the weapon of choice, and a hugely disproportionate number happen to those 18-19 year olds who arguably aren't "kids" anymore, anyway.  

Now...if you choose to live in fear of something that is incredibly unlikely to happen to the vast majority of kids sitting in a classroom... that is your choice.    

Newsflash! Everything is not all about you...

Nor is it about people who choose irrational fear every time they turn on the news, simply because they suck at math, and then demand that the rest of the world change behavior to assuage them.

And given the facts, an individual can mitigate the things that cause the disease.

Whereas gun violence is just happens randomly.....  Oh.. Wait...   It doesn't.  

Somehow as a society, we are unable to process the facts when it comes to gun violence, thinking we are impervious, we are not directly in danger, or we are not directly affected.

Or.... most of us can actually do math.

And yet all you are doing is holding conservatives accountable while giving liberals a pass.  As you say, it takes two hands to form a "handshake" or in this case it takes both sides of the aisle to come to a compromise on law.  Why are you putting most of the blame on conservatives here?  And why are you using that when it's republicans and democrats?  Are you trying to give yourself an out?

Republicans have come forth with several ideas to help with this over the years and Democrats have shut down any idea that is not inline with the assault weapons ban.  One can just as easily call them out for that.  Why don't you?

Lastly,  instead of just complaining that government is not getting the job done, what would you like to see done to maybe help prevent these shootings and include why you think your ideas are good ones.  

No passes for congress. These people, democrats and republicans, liberal and conservative, asked for leadership roles and got elected to those roles - now, it would be wrong to let them off for sitting on their thumbs, especially conservatives when the SYSTEM is giving them FEEDBACK to the stresses and strains occurring in it! 

The quote about is from my comment that you replied. How come you overlooked this in my comment that you RESPONDED TO? Why are you now being disingenious?

Lastly,  instead of just complaining that government is not getting the job done, what would you like to see done to maybe help prevent these shootings and include why you think your ideas are good ones.  

Is somebody 'chatting' with you to spoil discussion? I know it is done in the NT chat space. All of sudden you are "party" to a chorus that can't reply with straight talk because of its intent to obstruct' and diminish format.'

I will repeat as I often tell "the collective" - if leaders want the job of being leaders then it is they who are responsible for coming up with solutions to simple and complex policies of government. You, nor I, as the case may be, will be heard in conservative quarters anyway unless we tow the conservative line anyway. Yes, there are big shit talkers around NT who insist of providing 'air' cover for the NRA online.

Therefore, I will not waste my time appeasing the detractors.

And since you mention complaining, well I can complain like you and everybody else if I want. It's a free country, right?

Holding conservatives responsible? Damn skippy. If the legislation is stalled in congress by conservatives and no proper compromise can be found. . . look at conservatives trying to have it all their way—first!

Therefore, I will not waste my time appeasing the detractors.

So in other words ...."no" you don't have any ideas.

You don't either beyond the second amendment is your idea of sacrosanct.

You don't either beyond the second amendment is your idea of sacrosanct.

[Deleted]

The quote about is from my comment that you replied. How come you overlooked this in my comment that you RESPONDED TO? Why are you now being disingenious?

What do you mean?

Is somebody 'chatting' with you to spoil discussion? I know it is done in the NT chat space. All of sudden you are "party" to a chorus that can't reply with straight talk because of its intent to obstruct' and diminish format.'

Is there a discussion being spoiled?

I will repeat as I often tell "the collective" - if leaders want the job of being leaders then it is they who are responsible for coming up with solutions to simple and complex policies of government.

How often have you told that to the collective?  Do you think that they will ever get it?

Yes, there are big shit talkers around NT who insist of providing 'air' cover for the NRA online.

Why do you think that "big shit" provides 'air cover"?

Damn skippy.

Snuffy, not skippy.

No passes for congress. These people, democrats and republicans, liberal and conservative, asked for leadership roles and got elected to those roles - now, it would be wrong to let them off for sitting on their thumbs, especially conservatives when the SYSTEM is giving them FEEDBACK to the stresses and strains occurring in it! 

The quote about is from my comment that you replied. How come you overlooked this in my comment that you RESPONDED TO? Why are you now being disingenious?

Not being disingenious at all.  While you mention both Republicans and Democrats your entire comment adds to your condemnation of conservatives and by extention Republicans, it's obvious in your choice of words.  

Lastly,  instead of just complaining that government is not getting the job done, what would you like to see done to maybe help prevent these shootings and include why you think your ideas are good ones. 

Is somebody 'chatting' with you to spoil discussion? I know it is done in the NT chat space. All of sudden you are "party" to a chorus that can't reply with straight talk because of itsintent to obstruct' and diminishformat.'

I will repeat as I often tell "the collective" - if leaders want the job of being leaders then it is they who are responsible for coming up with solutions to simple and complex policies of government. You, nor I, as the case may be, will be heard in conservative quarters anyway unless we tow the conservative line anyway. Yes, there are big shit talkers around NT who insist of providing 'air' cover for the NRA online.

Therefore, I will not waste my time appeasing the detractors.

And since you mention complaining, well I can complain like you and everybody else if I want. It's afreecountry, right?

So even when asked you refuse to put forth any ideas or thoughts that you would like to see done and walk away.  Nobody is asking me to fuck with you in this way.  I've put forth several ideas that I would like to see and explained why I think they could help.  Those are my ideas.  Too bad you won't do the same.

Holding conservatives responsible? Damn skippy. If the legislation is stalled in congress by conservatives and no proper compromise can be found. . . look at conservatives trying to have it all their way—first!

I say hold them ALL responsible.  How many Democrats voted for any crime bill put forth by Republicans?  The Democrats are just as guilty of obstruction as the Republicans.  But you appear to be willing to give the Democrats a pass on their actions.  why?

And what, precisely, does your prescription call for?

Do you mean besides trashing conservatives while calling for unity? 

Stuffy, in the scheme of life there is a right way to do thing and a wrong way. We were not talking about 'putting forth any crime bill, albeit, if democrats don't like it they can walk away just like conservatives can.

The ISSUE in congress is nothing is getting 'done' because Republicans are hardliners and offering poison 'pills' that tank progress of all kinds of positive legislation. Now if you persist in this NONSENSE that republicans should be able to write laws that oppress, handicap, and demoralize and 'otherize' their FELLOW citizens we can end this here and now.

Nobody in this country should have to kiss the rings of anybody else in order to be given freedom, liberties, or privileges being denied them.

Holding conservatives responsible? Damn skippy. Stuffy, in the scheme of life there is a right way to do thing and a wrong way

Making up nick names is so Trump-like.

Once again you blame Republicans for Congress not getting things done yet give a free pass to Democrats who do the same actions.  What do  you say to the Democrats who refuse to discuss any bills to help stop the murder of American citizens unless the bill also includes banning "assault weapons" ?    That seems another type of poison pill but you seem to forgive them.  

And  nonsense that republicans should be able to write laws?  Isn't that what members of Congress do, they write and submit laws that they would like to see acted on?  You got any specifics or is this more generalities?  Are you talking about the voting laws that various states have passed, one of which was Georgia where the democrats lambasted hard on the "Jim Crow on steroids" laws yet that recent election under this law seemed to have record turnout and most everybody talked about how easy it was to vote.  Or are  you promoting the fear that seems to come from so many should SCOTUS overturn Roe v Wade?  It's hard to hold a discussion on issues when you won't actually talk about the issue and instead rely on a general and lofty speech that doesn't provide any information.

It's hard to hold a discussion on issues when you won't actually talk about the issue and instead rely on a general and lofty speech that doesn't provide any information.

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Never any solutions, just incessant bitching about "some conservatives" while bemoaning gridlock.

Pointless asking questions--they are never answered, just outright ignored or deflected until someone gets backed into a corner and finally resorts to the weakest of arguments, the trusty old race card.

Personally, I would be embarrassed to be reduced to such tactics, but this is what passes as debate among some liberals.

I'm disappointed because CB and I have had some good discussions in the past but it seems on this topic he refuses to discuss.  

I agree that it's way past time for a national discussion.  I just don't want to see Congress re-enact the 1994 Assault Weapons ban and then act like they did something to solve the problem because it had very limited impact back in 94 and there's no reason to believe it would have any real impact today.  There have been some what i consider good suggestions made but they get lambasted by the democrats because they don't all start with banning guns.  It just seems common sense to me, if  you want to stop gun violence then you need to ban ALL guns and then go door to door to confiscate them all.  And we know the likely hood of that happening...  

The left still wants to focus on the AR-15 while ignoring that the school shooting with the highest death count was done with two pistols and the school massacre with the highest body count ever was done with no guns at all.  

In 2020, more people were killed by hands, fists, feet (662) than by rifles (455) .  Assault rifle representing a smaller number as a sub-set of homicides by rifle.

And  nonsense that republicans should be able to write laws?  Isn't that what members of Congress do, they write and submit laws that they would like to see acted on? 

The Congress should write laws for which its leadership can agree and most importantly pass. Right now congress is in the control of democrats, it would benefit republicans in the minority to compromise with democrats as it would benefit democrats to compromise when they are in the minority.

That is easy enough to understand. So why don't you let it be? Unless to prove my point, you simply want to argue and be as strident as republicans in congress (in the uncompromising minority).

Firearms, types not stated: 4,863.

Are you talking about the voting laws that various states have passed, one of which was Georgia where the democrats lambasted hard on the "Jim Crow on steroids" laws yet that recent election under this law seemed to have record turnout and most everybody talked about how easy it was to vote.  Or are  you promoting the fear that seems to come from so many should SCOTUS overturn Roe v Wade?  It's hard to hold a discussion on issues when you won't actually talk about the issue and instead rely on a general and lofty speech that doesn't provide any information.

As to the passage of laws, the fact that people manage to succeed in-spite of obstructions placed in the way, says something about the voters - not the obstacles. Keep in mind, voting was a SUCCESS in 2020 already before the forced changes.

It is not my position to write to your "specific" needs. BTW this one is assault weapons and related subject matter. Voting and Roe vs. Wade. are "expansive" and coming from you.

As to the canard that I should offer some suggestions as a 'fishing expedition' - forget it. Don't hold your breath. Move on. What I share on a comment board freely (as do you). Government needs to fix its own people policies-or give up the seats.

Yes, Is there a reason to think the distribution would be dissimilar to the known types?

The Jim Crow on steroids myth has been thoroughly debunked, time to move to some other pet leftist fantasy!

Don't waste time, energy, or morale on disappointment, Snuffy. You PAY congress through election, salaries, staffing, benefits and perks to serve as agents to keep ALL the citizenry save. Demand that they do their jobs.

And not rely on "bitchin" and frustrated talk on the internet to supply them with workable, life-saving and school-saving gun policies.

Got it.  It's a shame, we've had a couple of good conversations (I felt) in the past but I guess that's all in the past.  You've had your say and I accept that you don't want to discuss this topic with me.  Have a nice day.

Whatever, Snuffy. We can talk anytime. But, I will not cut the republicans any slack they don't deserve. Whatever is wrong in congress and in state legislatures needs to be fixed. Because as far as we know, it could be that all this "revolution" combat for combat sake talk and activity that is making kids sick in the mind. Of course, having guns to 'stumble' across due to loopholes (big enough for an unhealthy mind to get through) is not helpful either!

Have a nice day, yourself!

After numerous articles on guns/gun control/mass shootings on NT we are still at the same spot we were years ago. More dead kids, and destroyed families with no end in sight. 

Sad commentary on what is said by many to be the ''Greatest Nation on Earth'' except for the fact we cannot protect our children. 

Carry on.

Protecting them from hearing about gay people seems more important to some.

After numerous articles on guns/gun control/mass shootings on NT we are still at the same spot we were years ago. More dead kids, and destroyed families with no end in sight.  Sad commentary on what is said by many to be the ''Greatest Nation on Earth'' except for the fact we cannot protect our children. 

What is even sadder is that killing of women is rising, but largely ignored in the "Greatest Nation on Earth".

Also, largely ignored, in mainstream media, is the mass killers' history of hatred and abuse of women.  Mainstream media seems more concerned if the killer had a history of mistreating cats or dogs than their mothers, girlfriends or wives.  Of course, abused women rarely report abuse because they are either not believed or they fear/know what will happen if their abuser is arrested.

The Number of Women Murdered by a Partner Is Rising | Psychology Today

A recent study examining   gender   differences and homicide (Fridel, et al.) identified a rise in domestic violence murders since 2014, after 40 years of a steady reduction. In the US, three women used to be killed by an intimate partner each day. The figure is now up—closer to four women a day. At the same time, the number of men who are murdered by an intimate partner has declined.

The means to kill is gun-related and the “why” invites us to recognize how violence against women is closely connected to the growing sentiment of hate promoted by white supremacists.

A woman’s life is safer with someone she doesn’t know than with a man she knows.

According to the National Resource Center on Domestic Violence (NRCDV), intimate partner homicides make up approximately 10% of all US murders and of those, women comprise approximately 70% of those killed. In other words, one out of every 10 people murdered is by an intimate partner, and seven of those ten murdered are women. Research tells us that women are far more likely to be killed by an intimate acquaintance or spouse than by a stranger.

The “Why” Behind the Rise in Intimate Partner Homicides

Fox and Fridel cite their research findings of increased intimate partner homicides as surprising after so many years of decline. Fox, in his New York Times article (April 12, 2019), attributes the decline to fewer and later marriages, the   divorce   rate increase, and women having more options to leave bad relationships. He adds, “Women no longer have to pick up a loaded gun to get out of a situation.” Fox stated, “these factors benefitted men, mostly, as the number of deaths among them dropped steadily.”

Yes, the fact that women have better options to leave an abusive relationship might be one of the most serious contributors to the rise of women killed by their intimate partners.

Misogyny

The mainstreaming of white supremacy and domestic violence are closely connected. A recent New York Times article, “A Common Trait Among Mass Killers: Hatred Toward Women,” reported, “The motivations of men who commit mass shootings are often muddled, complex or unknown. But one common thread that connects many of them—other than access to powerful firearms—is a history of hating women, assaulting wives, girlfriends and female family members, or sharing misogynistic views online.” (Bosman, et al, Aug. 10, 2019).

In 2018, the findings of a report by the Anti-Defamation League titled, “When Women are the Enemy: The Intersection of Misogyny and White Supremacy” found that the hatred of women is frequently an accession into the white supremacist world. The report identified that the cultural changes and   attention   to gender equality in progressive   politics   emboldened some men to choose to follow the far-right, white supremacist movements that hold women to strong traditional gender roles. (Salon, H. D. Parton, August 2019).

When we see media coverage that shows women overtly devalued by men, particularly by a man in the highest position of power in our country, it’s not hard to imagine a fueling of misogynist viewpoints that then places an already vulnerable woman in an abusive relationship at greater risk for violence.

Of course, abused women rarely report abuse because they are either not believed or they fear/know what will happen if their abuser is arrested.

Very sad, there is a perfect example in this week's news.

Iowa church shooting: Eden Montang, Vivian Flores killed by Johnathan Lee Whitlatch outside Cornerstone Church in Ames - CBS News

A man who fatally shot two women before killing himself in the parking lot of an Iowa church had been romantically involved with one of the women and faced a court hearing next week on a charge of harassing her, investigators said Friday.

Johnathan Lee Whitlatch, 33, of Boone, pulled up in a pickup truck to 22-year-old Eden Montang, 21-year-old Vivian Flores and another woman just before 7 p.m. Thursday outside Cornerstone Church on the outskirts of Ames and began shooting with a 9 mm handgun, according to the Story County Sheriff's office. 

  Whitlatch and Montang had recently broken up, Fitzgerald said, and Whitlatch was arrested May 31 on counts of harassment and impersonating a police officer.

Details of the allegations against Whitlatch weren't immediately available, acording to Story County Capt. Nicholas Lennie. Whitlatch was released on bond the same day he was arrested, Lennie said, and had been scheduled to appear in court June 10.

"[It's] very hard to comprehend what he just witnessed of the actual shooting there, and tried to resuscitate the one girl. From what he said, the gunman got out and he witnessed him get out of the car and shoot ... and watched that happen and shoot another girl as she was walking away and then shot himself. ... It's just hard to comprehend," Scott said.

we are still at the same spot we were years ago

Until it starts effecting upper class conservatives nothing will change. Though at the rate this is now happening we could be there next week.

Now this is feral hogs. Imagine a classroom full of kids and the carnage a boy or man with a gun can cause. I reserve opinion on the feral pigs, nevertheless. (Hogs have no civil rights that a human ought to respect, right?)

In any case, we need to get "eyes" of understanding on what type of death we are discussing.

what type of death we are discussing.

What specific type are YOU talking about?

Well the feral hog video landed with a 'thud.' The symbolism is morbidly PRICELESS.

I don't know what to feel about raccoons really. We have them come out around our house, backyard fencing, and even crapped on the roof for which I paid to have cleaned out. Have seen them fighting in the street from my bedroom window and even one in my neighbor's trap. Still, I have no 'firm' opinion on this animal.

I can imagine the devastation to farm life.

6 dead, 25 wounded in the lastest two mass shootings in PA and TN. 

No raccoons were wounded or killed so chickens are still in danger.

Why do mass shooters choose the AR-15 style rifle?

So let me get this straight, these murderous psychopaths select the AR-15 style rifle for a purpose?!! How not insane that is!

I’ve always pulled the pork after roasting the shoulder low and slow for about 10 hours.  He found a way to do it on the front end.

Interesting. I found another video he did with shotguns - the president's recommendation for weapons.

Thank you, very informative. That 'dragon's breath' round is amazing. 

That 'dragon's breath' round is amazing

With a shotgun, the term most frequently used is shell, not round or cartridge.

Pretty crazy. I hadn’t seen that before.

About 30 years ago I bought a kit to mount a shotgun under the barrel of an AR-15,  I didn't put it on.  Putting that together goes on my    ever-growing list of retirement things to get around to one day, if I can still find it. 

This just made me think of that. 

Senator John Thune (R-SD) says we need the ARs to fight prairie dogs. Next, it will be stingers to fight crows.

The reason they want those guns is not because of prairie dogs, feral pigs or raccoons.  It is because the feeling of power and the "thrill" of shooting off an "assault style" weapon. How many people die from these guns isnt even a consideration. 

I remember when Bruce ( the erstwhile member here) posted photos of him beaming over the body of a squirrel or raccoon or groundhog (may even have been a coyote, I dont exactly remember) he had blasted with his AR-15. I'm sure such impresses some, but I dont think their fun is worth all the death. 

Law abiding sportsmen/women, gun owners, hunters and fishermen do more to help and manage our natural wildlife resources in this country that all the pearl clutchers combined.

The anti gun/hunting fetish with some of our friends on the left is rather out of control.

Let me be clear, I accept and respect law-abiding gun users and hunters. Good Hunters, like good police, are a blessing to this country. There still has to be some give and take to catch and weed out those who use guns (a tool) to commit mass murders, nevertheless.

Well CB, we do appreciate your respect.    

And when you figure out how to “weed out” the crazies, without infringing on law abiding gun owners rights, let us know.

I have yet to see anything coming out of the liberal establishment that even comes close.    No one wants to see kooks buying guns.

No one.

Yes! It is time this discussion extend respect to those who use guns responsibly!

You're using the gun as a tool of choice. Why can't you figure or help figure out how to weed out the crazies? Because at the end of the day, all anybody really wants is to. . . live, out their lives in relative comfort without the fear of being an innocent victim gunned down.

 I was asking you.    So you have no answer to the question you were asked, so just tried to pass it on. 

okay, got it.