In the rare earth industry, China's dominance has been no accident. Years of research and industrial policy helped the nation develop a superior position in the market, and now the country has the ability to control production and the global availability of these valuable metals.

The nations which provide the most rare earth elements are not the ones on which we would want to be dependent.

Very slim pickings when dealing with friendly governments. I would say that Brazil is our best choice, but they are underproducing at the moment.

I would take Vietnam over Brazil. If Bolosorano loses in the next election then perhaps Brazil might be next on the list.

I know I know, I am an earthly rare element. No need to write about it...s/

The only problem I see is if war broke out. Otherwise I say let them dig up and destroy their own countries. All we have to do is buy.

All we have to do is buy.

Monopolies are a bad thing.   What happens if China/Russia decides to up the price or hold rare earth elements as a bargaining chip?

Can be a double edge sword Imo. If no one buys their minerals they would make concessions I would think.

Look how much it impacts a country when their oil is not purchased.

Key is that we do not have the option to not buy.   These elements are essential to the present and future.    We must buy from somewhere and the uber-suppliers are not nations on whom we want to depend.

Seems going green is not very green.

There is a good argument to be made in support of that (at least in the early stages).

Very slim pickings but I wonder how much material is every American garage or home office?

I have two towers & 3 laptops, at least one very fancy monitor that needs a capacitor, VCRs, chargers

in a box in the garage waiting for months, maybe more, for me to call the recycler to pick up.

In the office a we have a pile of old Apple phones that can (should) be donated or recycled.

Remember that WWII was won with scrap drives.  5 million tons of metal in the first month?

Can you imagine what's in some of our landfills?  69 million pounds?

National Overview: Facts and Figures on Materials, Wastes and Recycling | US EPA

Currently between one and five % of REE are being recycled. There are some difficulties in doing it and there are a number of companies that are working on making it easier and quicker.

One day we will dig up landfills to get what was dumped there 

Thought this might be a worthwhile item to add to your seed.

Op-ed | The Rare Earth Ripple Effect of Russia’s War on Ukraine   - SpaceNews

Of mounting concern is the  sourcing and mining of Rare Earth minerals  – also commonly known as Rare Earth Elements, or REEs for short.

And as the war between Russia and Ukraine grinds on, disruptions in things like REEs will only grow in importance. 

Of course, Russia’s vast mineral wealth is well known – which is now constricted for world export due to sanctions.  But Ukraine, long been considered an agricultural “breadbasket,” has also become increasingly recognized for its mineral abundance. For example, Ukraine is estimated to hold upwards of 500,000 tons of lithium oxide — a core mineral for modern batteries. Ukraine also has major energy deposits and precious metals such as Titanium.  

Challenges ahead

With the war physically devastating Ukraine, and economically truncating Russian connectivity to world markets, the impact of these developments on the global supply of crucial raw materials must be taken seriously. In fact, before Russia invaded Ukraine, market analysts were already warning of the potential impact of war on the global semiconductor market, suggesting that chip prices could spike several hundred times over due to REE sourcing; market research groups indicated that 35% of  U.S.-bound palladium comes from Russia . Ukraine also  provides the bulk  of U.S. semiconductor-grade neon supplies.   

Weren't we told that China would build the Belt & Road through the Whakjhir Pass to get to

the mountains of rare earth minerals and other raw ores and expand their toehold there?

Hasn't happened, nor has anyone in Afghanistan sought to cash in yet.

No capitalism, no progress?

No capitalism, no progress?

I have much difficulty understanding the government and capitalists in the US. I rarely try to second guess the owners of China.  

Afghanistan is rated 6th in the world for rare earth metals, plus billions of dollars or iron ore and other minerals. This is an article from 2011 on it and there have been more recent articles confirming that massive deposits of rare earth metals and other minerals. 

scientificamerican

Maybe why China was in such a hurry to establish diplomatic relations with the Taliban after our withdrawal. 

in 2007 China signed a $2 plus billion dollar deal to mine in Afghanistan, they have not mined anything after the signing of the deal. Here is a good article on China/Afghanistan rare earth metals. The section about the ''lithium triangle'' in South America is really interesting.

foreignpolicy

And one of three places in the world where you find Lapis Lazuli.

I've wondered what China's eventual reaction might be when America banned Huawei, imposed significant tariffs on Chinese products, blacklisted a number of Chinese corporations, banned the sale of certain kinds of microchips to China, demonized and bashed China, formed organizations of other nations to pressure China, provoked China by disregarding the One China Policy that the USA says it still honours (like hell it does), passing resolutions interfering in China's domestic affairs, etc etc etc.  Obviously the trade benefits with the USA are more important to China than blocking the sale of REE to America, but they could decide to impose some hefty tariffs, couldn't they?

Obviously the trade benefits with the USA are more important to China than blocking the sale of REE to America, but they could decide to impose some hefty tariffs, couldn't they?

China could do a lot of things, but I suspect their leadership will play the long game to benefit their society instead of seeking short term gratification that might benefit the few.  This is something that US leadership seems to be incapable of.  

I googled for an overview of the China business model vs the United States business model.  The article below is short but gives some insight on cultural differences.  The comments are informative, also.

Contrast Between U.S. and China Business Practices (psu.edu)

Contrast Between U.S. and China Business Practices

March 30, 2020   by   cms7206   2 Comments

Thanks, interesting.  What did you learn about China’s business practice of theft of intellectual capital,  Estimates at the cost of this stealing range from $400-$600 billion a year or $4-12 trillion over the last 20 years from the US along.

People in glass houses......etc.

.

Washington behind shameless cyber-attacks

"The tens of thousands of cyber-attacks launched against China's Northwestern Polytechnical University have finally been traced, after months of probe, to the Office of Tailored Access Operation, affiliated to the National Security Agency of the United States."

LINK -> chinadaily.cn

My comment was about the common Chinese business practice of stealing intellectual property and copy right infringement.  If you want to discuss cyber attack OK.  I hope the link you sent you s true, retaliatory hacks are long overdue.

Seven years ago, the US  Office of Personnel Management (OPM), the agency that manages the government's civilian workforce, discovered that it’s personnel files had been hacked. Among the sensitive data was mine and millions of others SF-86 forms, These forms have info from  background checks for people seeking government security clearances.  

Cyber forensics trace back to Chinese state-sponsored hackers.

You're right, I misinterpreted.  As for business practices, it was my understanding that in China those who wanted to do business in China were required to provide the information you're describing.  It was NOT stolen and they were NOT forced to do it, because if they didn't all that would happen is that they were not permitted to do business in China.  So it wasn't theft, the choice was up to the foreign corporations. Greed is more important to those who are looking for more than a billion new consumers.

Greed is more important to those who are looking for more than a billion new consumers.

How do you think China's economy would have developed it the West had stayed away?

I misunderstood

You still are.  Some hacking is ,like traditional government espionage, and some is criminalby the state:

A years long malicious cyber operation spearheaded by the notorious Chinese state actor, APT 41, has siphoned off an estimated trillions in intellectual property theft from approximately 30 multinational companies within the manufacturing, energy and pharmaceutical sectors.

A new report by Boston-based cybersecurity firm, Cybereason, has unearthed a malicious campaign — dubbed Operation CuckooBees — exfiltrating hundreds of gigabytes of intellectual property and sensitive data, including blueprints, diagrams, formulas, and manufacturing-related proprietary data from multiple intrusions, spanning technology and manufacturing companies in North America, Europe, and Asia.

Birds do it.  Bees do it.  Even educated fleas do it.  Let's spy on each other. 

Somehow I don't think that China is the only technologically advanced nation in the world that spies on other countries.

I don't think that China is the only technologically advanced nation in the world that spies on other countries.

How much intellectual property do you think Germany steals, France, Japan?

Or were you thinking of Russia and North Korea?

America doesn't spy on other nations?

Do you believe that the US has stolen trillions of dollars of IP from China?

When you answer my question I'll answer yours, but now it's 10 pm and I'm turning off my computer, but will be back here in the morning. 

When you return, please answer my question in 7.1.5.  and 7.1.7.

America doesn't spy on other nations?

That not the topic unless you're changing it.  My original comment was theft of IP as a business practice in China.

What did you learn about China’s business practice of theft of intellectual capital,

This is an article in Forbes from 3 years ago the gives some insight on your question to me.

How To Stop China From Stealing Your Intellectual Property (forbes.com)

The China-U.S. battle over IP is just getting started.

This summer, the   University of California system sued   Target, Amazon, Walmart and other retailers for patent infringement on LED filament bulbs designed by University researchers in Santa Barbara. A patent protects someone from making, using or selling the same thing, and it was China that was making the same thing.

Going after retailers for selling Made in China light bulbs that were based on the Santa Barbara patent is much easier than bringing a lawsuit to Chinese manufacturers who may, or may not, have known they were infringing on a patent.

Dean Pinkert, a partner with Hughes Hubbard’s international trade practice and former commissioner of the U.S. International Trade Commission said everyone in Washington knew that multinationals operating in China didn’t want to come forward and complain about IP theft publicly.

“They wanted to do business in China. There were lots of quiet concern about blowback from Beijing,” Pinkert says.

Should the University of California prevail in court, allowing future plaintiffs to sue a seller for patent infringement, then it changes the landscape for IP protection.

It’s potentially interesting for CIPRUN. “We have the connections,” says Giler on a summer afternoon luncheon at The Atlantic Fish Company in Boston. “We can go into China and say, ‘Look, here are the guys that are making this stuff’,” he says.

Target and others will say they didn’t infringe on anyone’s patents and that it is not their fault. The fault lies in China.

“They’re going to go after each one of their suppliers and tell them they are responsible for the purchase price and damages,” Giler thinks, adding that the retailers could be on the hook for “big money.”

In China, protecting IP is an agency business as opposed to a law firm as it is here in the U.S. The agency files the patents, not an attorney representing the company. It is considered a mostly apolitical business, though unlike here the China court system has no juries and they don’t use precedence.

Companies filing for IP globally may or may not have China protections. Patent Cooperation Treaties with some 152 countries make it easier to protect in more places than one, sort of like a master patent filing application. But China is not a signatory for all patents. Inventors need to single them out some times.

and more info why American companies are loathe to leave China.  Also, an older article so I don't know how much has actually changed.

Why American Companies Choose China Over Everyone Else (forbes.com)

For all-around emerging market manufacturing know-how, for reliability, for currency stability, for safety and for domestic market growth, China is No. 1. The rest are more like No. 100.

No one comes close in the developing world to China. And that is why U.S. companies are so headstrong about staying there. The trade war will have to get much worse before they are forced to source elsewhere.

Last week, one of the biggest lobby groups for American multinationals in China, the U.S. China Business Council, put out their annual member survey. China was still as profitable or more so than other emerging markets where they have set up shop or source supply.

Only 3% said they were relocating to the U.S. because of tariffs. Under 7% said they were leaving China.

Why do American companies love China so much? It can’t be just because of its size. India is comparably large and friendlier to the U.S. Brazil is pretty big—and closer. Mexico, even closer.

Beat up on China all you want—the truth is that companies overwhelmingly want to be there. Portfolio managers want to as well.

From a corporate perspective, here is what makes China better than the rest.

• Taxes:

The corporate   tax rate in China is 25%.

It’s   35%   in India,   34%   in Brazil, and 30% in   Mexico.   Right off the bat, China is at least 5% cheaper.

Five percent won’t be the deciding factor in deciding whether to set up a factory in China. But these issues sure will ...

• Labor:

China is a communist country, so one would expect their workers would have collective bargaining and other rights. While labor rights are stricter now in China than they were even five years ago and wages are rising, China wages are still cheaper than Brazil’s and Mexico’s.

In terms of labor rights, China ranks 5 on a scale of 1 to 5 as one of the world’s worst countries for workers, according to the International Trade Union Confederation. India is just as bad, meaning it’s a place where businesses can more easily exploit workers.

Mexico is a 4 and Brazil is a 3.

Brazil has some of the toughest labor laws around. Good luck firing someone in Brazil or beating a union lawsuit in a court.

Strong labor rights that favor unions tend to be unattractive to global capital looking for cheap inputs and little drama. China has comparatively weak labor protections on one hand, and a diverse pool of talent on the other—from stitch-and-sew factory workers to scientists and other high tech, advanced machine tool operators are all at the ready. There are hundreds of thousands of them. No country has this.

Moreover, even though India has a similar workforce situation in terms of rights and size, the government long ago decided to focus on being a software developer and IT service exporter.

As an economy, India is known for its IT firms and maybe a generic drug manufacturer. China is surpassing them on the generic drugs side.

China is known for producing everything. Need a photovoltaic cell panel for a drone? China can make that. Need a float for your swimming pool? China’s got it. It’s a wonder that Alibaba or Tencent haven’t spun off their own IT outsourcing unit to compete with Infosys yet.

India also changes governments every few years and only recently unified its cross-state tax code. China has none of these problems. Continuity makes life easier for businesses. It’s one less headache.

more...

Why American Companies Choose China Over Everyone Else (forbes.com)

• Logistics:

There are hidden costs involved in doing business in any country. Taxes can be written off. But countries like Brazil have hidden taxes hard to avoid. A simple corporate cellphone account is taxed nearly as much as the corporate tax rate.

Then there is corruption and crime which makes doing business in these countries more complicated.

• Bad guys:

China is corrupt. But not as corrupt as any other major emerging market.

According to Transparency International’s 2018   Corruption Perception Index , China ranks 87th out of 180 nations. India is better at 78. Brazil ranks 105th and Mexico is terrible at 138, equal to Russia, a country everyone in the market refers to as the Wild East.

The small Southeast Asian nations that have been benefiting from Chinese manufacturers setting up factories there aren’t much better, according to Transparency International. Vietnam is ranked 117 out of 180. More corruption often means companies have to face bribes and other strong-arm tactics by politicians and regulators to do business.

Corruption perception in China is not great. But crime is low.

Crime is not as rampant in China as it is elsewhere in emerging markets . India, Mexico and Brazil are way more dangerous. If quality of life for expat workers comes into play, then building a factory in those countries is less safe than building one in China.

Investing in operations in Rio de Janeiro and bringing down American workers might sound enticing, but Rio is one of the most dangerous cities in the world, which is one factor why few companies even consider it.

• Bad air:

Of the  10 most polluted cities in the world , 9 of them are in India.

• Lower energy costs:

If you’re a company concerned about electricity prices (and Brazil’s taxes on top of that), then China is better at just   $0.08 per kilowatt hour.

Abundant labor, from skilled to unskilled, weak unions, stable currency and politics, world-class logistics and a safer place to do business makes China better than the rest.

"How do you think China's economy would have developed it the West had stayed away?"

It may have taken a longer time.

"How much intellectual property do you think Germany steals, France, Japan?"

How can I possibly have an answer to that?  

"Or were you thinking of Russia and North Korea?"

No.

Now you can answer MY question, and I would appreciate an answer rather than another question as an answer.

Of course the US spies on other countries, it's common knowledge.

Now I'll answer your question and as far as I'm concerned it ends this dialogue.  I have no idea how much IP America has got from Chinese government, military, corporations and institutions, but if it isn't much then the American intelligence agencies are damned incompetent.  I suppose if Edward Snowden was still around we might know.  

A lot of this angst could be avoided by focusing attention on energy efficiency and conservation.  But, nooooo, we'd rather focus attention on economic growth, money, and finance.  Is it even possible to discuss a 'green future' without talking about money?  

Rare earths are not that scarce.  What makes rare earths 'rare' is that they are widely dispersed.  It's possible to recover rare earths from desalination brine.  But, hell no, that's not profitable.  Money is the most important thing in this galaxy.

If energy production is a problem then it seems rather apparent the real need is to reduce energy consumption.  That hasn't been a priority for the environmental movement or banking based government.  It is easier to produce money than energy, after all.  Just ignore the real world and everything will be fine.

I have seen a couple of documentaries which theorize that much more REE's are available for mining on the floors of the worlds oceans (makes sense considering how much of our planet is covered by water).  While we currently lack the tech to access them it's only a matter of time.