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Supreme Court Declines To Take Case Aimed At Overturning 100-Year-Old Racist Precedents

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  kavika  •  2 years ago  •  51 comments

By:   PaulBlu (HuffPost)

Supreme Court Declines To Take Case Aimed At Overturning 100-Year-Old Racist Precedents
Fitisemanu v. U.S. sought to challenge the racist Insular Cases, which treat inhabitants of U.S. territories differently from citizens of the 50 states and D.C.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



The Supreme Court declined to take a case challenging its 100-year-old racist precedents that continue to deny equal rights to the 3.6 million residents of overseas U.S. territories on Monday.

Three American Samoans living in Utah and a Samoan nonprofit petitioned the court in Fitisemanu v. U.S. to overturn the Insular Cases, the court's early 20th-century precedents that enabled the country's colonial expansion by allowing it to absorb overseas territories populated by non-white peoples while denying them equal rights or a path to statehood.

"It's a punch in the gut for the Justices to leave in place a ruling that says I am not equal to other Americans simply because I was born in a U.S. territory," John Fitisemanu, the lead plaintiff in the case, said in a statement. "I was born on U.S. soil, have a U.S. passport, and pay my taxes like everyone else. But because of a discriminatory federal law, I am not recognized as a U.S. citizen."

The Insular Cases that deny people like Fitisemanu equal rights as citizens were explicitly founded on racist premises. The cases, which occurred from 1901 to 1922, claimed that the people of the overseas territories the U.S. conquered in the Spanish-American War came from "savage tribes" and "alien" and "uncivilized race[s]" who were "absolutely unfit to receive" the rights provided by the Constitution. The court invented a new legal class of "unincorporated territory" for the colonial possessions taken from Spain that denied them equal rights and statehood.

Today, the Insular Cases still govern the U.S. overseas territories of American Samoa, Guam, Northern Marianas Islands, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands. In each territory, Congress has negotiated different rules for people's access to their rights as Americans.

For example, unlike other territorial inhabitants, American Samoans are not officially U.S. citizens, but American nationals. This means that even if they move to a state or the District of Columbia, they will be denied the right to vote. This was one of the chief complaints made by Fitisemanu and the other plaintiffs in the case.

Advertisement Supreme Court Justices Neil Gorsuch (standing second from the left) and Sonia Sotomayor (seated furthest left) are the only justices known to support overturning the Insular Cases.Jabin Botsford/The Washington Post via Getty Images

Fitisemanu v. U.S. challenged the constitutionality of the Insular Cases by arguing that the 14th Amendment's citizenship clause grants U.S. citizenship to all people "born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof." As these territories are both a part of the U.S. and subject to its jurisdiction, the residents of the territories ought to be granted full access to that citizenship, the plaintiffs argued.

For years now, territorial residents have sought to loosen the grip of the Insular Cases or overturn them entirely through the courts. In each case, the courts have refused to do so.

There was some expectation that the Supreme Court may act differently on Fitisemanu after Justices Neil Gorsuch and Sonia Sotomayor declared in the case of Vaello-Madero v. U.S. that they would like to see the Insular Cases overturned.

"[It is] past time to acknowledge the gravity of this error and admit what we know to be true: The Insular Cases have no foundation in the Constitution and rest instead on racial stereotypes. They deserve no place in our law," Gorsuch wrote in a concurrence in Vaello-Madero.

In agreeing with Gorsuch that the Insular Cases should be overturned, Sotomayor called them "both odious and wrong" in her Vaello-Madero dissent.

But four of the nine Supreme Court justices must vote to take up a case. Clearly, there were not four votes to take up Fitisemanu. There were also no written dissents from the denial of the case.


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Kavika
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Kavika     2 years ago

This is a real stunner by SCOTUS only 2 of the judges wanted to take the case and no matter how you look at it the ''Insular Laws'' are outdated, discriminatory, and racist.

Here are a few more links that may add more information to this situation. 

It's interesting to note that the two judges, Gorsuch and Sotomayor are both experts in constitutional US/Indian law.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2  TᵢG    2 years ago

They are too busy sending us backwards to deal with reversing insane laws.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Expert
2.1  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  TᵢG @2    2 years ago

This court would make the very first court seem like liberals.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2.2  seeder  Kavika   replied to  TᵢG @2    2 years ago

Stunning to say the least. And these insane laws actually are enforced.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
2.3  Sean Treacy  replied to  TᵢG @2    2 years ago
re too busy sending us backwards to deal with reversing insane la

Lol.

Overturning  precedent is horrible and an assault on the Republic !

Precedent must be overturned!

Nice to see the sacredness of precedent argument lasted less than six months.  Who could have predicted it.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.3.1  TᵢG  replied to  Sean Treacy @2.3    2 years ago
Overturning  precedent is horrible and an assault on the Republic !

How one-dimensional can an argument be?   You distill this down to mere precedent and hold that precedent is the ONLY consideration when laws are changed??   By that reasoning you would argue that no law ever be changed.    

The objection to the Roe v Wade overturn was not merely that it violated precedent but that it immediately took away contemporary, actively used, critical rights held by women for almost 50 years (the majority of state legislatures have dramatically restricted / outlawed abortions).   Violation of precedent was a factor, not the basis of the objection.

In this case the objection is that these laws are obviously and profoundly discriminatory by race and are entirely outdated.

With your reasoning, you would object to the abolishment of slavery merely because it broke precedent.

Don't view the world in such simple terms;  that is a sure way to get things wrong.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2.3.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  TᵢG @2.3.1    2 years ago

Sounds like someone is drowning in hyppcrisy

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Expert
3  Perrie Halpern R.A.    2 years ago

If they are going to be treated as less than, they should apply for independence.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3    2 years ago
If they are going to be treated as less than, they should apply for independence.

Now that would have both houses of congress, DOJ and SCOTUS in a fricking uproar. 

Think about how we use Guam and what for and the same with Samoa and the Northern Mariana Islands. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.1  CB  replied to  Kavika @3.1    2 years ago

Which begs the question. If these territories vote to position themselves with another mainland that recognizes them fully, the United States would be faced with its own China-Taiwan dilemma.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3.1.2  seeder  Kavika   replied to  CB @3.1.1    2 years ago

That would be interesting to say the least. 

The ''other Samoa'' just 1/2 hour from American Samoa already has heavy Chinese investment.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3.1.3  Trout Giggles  replied to  Kavika @3.1    2 years ago

We have a large military presence on Guam

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
3.2  sandy-2021492  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3    2 years ago

Agreed.  If they are denied a voice in the government to which they are subject, then they should form their own government.  That was sort of the whole point of the US.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3.2.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  sandy-2021492 @3.2    2 years ago
That was sort of the whole point of the US.

Kinda, but then again the ''Insular laws'' are part of the US, which of course throws a whole other light on the subject.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
3.2.2  sandy-2021492  replied to  Kavika @3.2.1    2 years ago

They are part, but perhaps we don't deserve for them to be.  If we can't uphold our own ideals, territories we hold but to whom we disallow representation should be able to tell us to fuck off and go their own way.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3.2.3  seeder  Kavika   replied to  sandy-2021492 @3.2.2    2 years ago
fuck off and go their own way.

Ha, both houses of congress, the military, and SCOTUS would melt down.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3.2.4  Trout Giggles  replied to  sandy-2021492 @3.2.2    2 years ago

I hope they do. The US can't keep treating people of the territories like this without pushback.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
4  Buzz of the Orient    2 years ago

Why would the SCOTUS even CONSIDER hearing the case?  It wasn't referred to in the Constitution - afer all, isn't that the deciding factor now?  If the residents of Samoa, which America considers to be an American territory, are not given the same status as other American citizens why don't they just tell America to f*** o** and become an independent nation?  I suppose if they get SOME benefits from their present status they have a reason to continue being bought.  I would say the same for all American "territories".  

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Buzz of the Orient @4    2 years ago
It wasn't referred to in the Constitution - afer all, isn't that the deciding factor now? 

Seems for some dickheads that is the be all, end all.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5  JohnRussell    2 years ago

I would like to see one or more of the seven who rejected the case give a detailed rationale for why they did so .

Thats not going to happen though. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
5.1  CB  replied to  JohnRussell @5    2 years ago

You are right. An explanation is owed to the American public which is being snubbed. Especially if the court takes up some over supra-constitutional set  or single cases. If the situation is such that the high court wants CONGRESS to manage its institutional duties to the territories of the United States—state it plainly and stop beating around the bush. Elsewise, who can blame citizens of the territories for suing to be heard in a court about a lack of basic civil rights-which span whole generations and lifespans.

Islanders are not the "redheaded step-children" of the United States!

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
5.1.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @5.1    2 years ago
Islanders are not the "redheaded step-children" of the United States!

You got that right, I didn't meet any redheads in Samoa. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.2  seeder  Kavika   replied to  JohnRussell @5    2 years ago
Thats not going to happen though. 

No, it's not going to happen in this lifetime.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
5.2.1  CB  replied to  Kavika @5.2    2 years ago

And yet for those who have lived up to this point and are living in this point - lifetimes have been wasted in a 'holding pattern' and suspension. Some of our states can be so "f—" cruel to their fellow human beings.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
6  Drinker of the Wry    2 years ago
And yet for those who have lived up to this point and are living in this point

Huh?

lifetimes have been wasted

That's on those that wasted their lifetime.

Some of our states can be so "f—" cruel to their fellow human beings.

Do you mean that people can be cruel as states are simply an organizational construct.

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
6.1  George  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @6    2 years ago

The Supreme Court general rules on the constitutionality of laws that Congress passes, and to settle disputes between districts. 2 separate districts ruled against Samoans getting citizenship, the Obama state department fought against it in DC, this case in Utah just reinforced it.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
6.2  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Drinker of the Wry @6    2 years ago
Do you mean that people can be cruel as states are simply an organizational construct.

What I mean and have said very clearly is that the US Law (s) Insular laws are bigoted and racist, no amount of dancing on the part of the US government or SCOTUS is going to change that. 

It's that simple.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
7  Sean Treacy    2 years ago

While Huffpost doesn't report such things, the majority of the 10th Circuit rejected the case without relying on the Insular cases. Besides the rather obvious Constiitional problems with the theory (the difference between the 14th and 13th Amendment demonstrate a clear difference in how the Constitution   applies)  the Court and the Biden Administration  noted that Congress has, and has always had, the power to pass legislation on citizenship.  So even if the Court heard the case, the Insular cases aren't even the main issue. 

But it's easier for liberals to whine about the evil Supreme Court than wonder why a democratic congress never addressed the issue when even when it had a filibuster proof majority. 

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
7.1  George  replied to  Sean Treacy @7    2 years ago

I wonder why the Obama administration fought against it in Tuaua V United States? And the 4 liberal justices didn’t grant them a hearing.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
7.1.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  George @7.1    2 years ago

I wonder why the Obama administration fought against it in Tuaua V United States? And the 4 liberal justices didn’t grant them a hearing.

I don't know perhaps you should ask them. Either side that supports this is, IMO, completely wrong.

Perhaps you can explain why Samoans are  US Nationals and other territory are US Citizens?

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
7.2  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Sean Treacy @7    2 years ago
But it's easier for liberals to whine about the evil Supreme Court than wonder why a democratic congress never addressed the issue when even when it had a filibuster proof majority. 

I wasn't aware that Gorsuch was a liberal. 

But it's easier for liberals to whine about the evil Supreme Court than wonder why a democratic congress never addressed the issue when even when it had a filibuster proof majority. 

Or why a republican congress never addressed the issue when they had a fillbuster proof majority? The laws have been on the books for 100 years. 

Perhaps you can explain why Samoans are US nationals and other territories are US Citizens.

Here is a start:

When American Samoa's traditional leaders signed the Deeds of Cession in 1900 and 1904 transferring sovereignty to the United States, they believed that in return they would be recognized as U.S. citizens.  However, without any basis in the law, and contrary to the desires of American Samoa's leaders, officials at the U.S. State Department and the U.S. Navy refused to recognize American Samoans as citizens, labeling them instead with the inferior status of "non-citizen U.S. national." The U.S. Navy was motivated in large part due to racial stereotypes, believing American Samoans were "not ready" to be recognized as citizens. In 1940, Congress passed a discriminatory law that for the first time formally denied American Samoans recognition as U.S. citizens. 
 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
7.2.1  George  replied to  Kavika @7.2    2 years ago

Or why a republican congress never addressed the issue when they had a fillbuster proof majority?

The democrats had a filibuster proof majority 8 plus times in the last 100 years, can you point out the republicans filibuster majorities?

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
7.2.2  seeder  Kavika   replied to  George @7.2.1    2 years ago
The democrats hUSad a filibuster proof majority 8 plus times in the last 100 years, can you point out the republicans filibuster majorities?

If this is true then what you're saying is that Republicans didn't bring it to the floor because they were 1. racist or 2. didn't give a shit about indigenous people.

Just to point out to you that I don't care if it's right or left not challenging this racist law. I pointed out that Gorsuch was one that wanted to take this case. 

Now, I'll ask you again can you explain why Samoans are US Nationals and some of the other territories are US Citizens?

Which is what this case is all about.

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
7.2.3  George  replied to  Kavika @7.2.2    2 years ago

No I can’t explain it, and it is a racist law!  Democrats with a filibuster proof majority and the presidency on several occasions failed to change it due to blatant racism and you blame republicans. Priceless.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
7.2.4  seeder  Kavika   replied to  George @7.2.3    2 years ago
No I can’t explain it, and it is a racist law!

No surprise that you can't explain it but can babble on about it. 

Democrats with a filibuster proof majority and the presidency on several occasions failed to change it due to blatant racism and you blame republicans. Priceless.

I didn't blame republicans but did point out that they chose not to do anything about a racist law. Which of course reflects on them the same way it reflects on dems. 

And once again I pointed out that Gorsuch wanted the case and he certainly is a conservative.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
7.2.5  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Kavika @7.2.2    2 years ago
If this is true then what you're saying is that Republicans didn't bring it to the floor because they were 1. racist or 2. didn't give a shit about indigenous people.

Yet Democrats didn't address the issue.  So which is it are they 1. racist or 2. didn't give a shit about indigenous people?

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
7.2.6  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @7.2.5    2 years ago
Yet Democrats didn't address the issue.  So which is it are they1. racist or 2. didn't give a shit about indigenous people?

The comment was a question and was self-explanatory when I stated this:

I didn't blame republicans but did point out that they chose not to do anything about a racist law. Which of course reflects on them the same way it reflects on dems. 

If you need further explanation see comment 9.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
7.3  Gsquared  replied to  Sean Treacy @7    2 years ago

Given the sophistry of the argument in the second paragraph of Comment 7, the question raised is why are congressional republicans such low-lifes that they would filibuster legislation that could resolve the issue presented?

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
7.3.1  George  replied to  Gsquared @7.3    2 years ago

Can you show where republicans have done that? Democrats have had filibuster proof majorities 8 plus times, why are democrat congressman so racist?

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
7.3.2  Gsquared  replied to  George @7.3.1    2 years ago
Can you show where republicans have done that?

Not surprisingly, you're completely missing the point.

why are democrat congressman so racist?

Laughable.  

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
7.3.3  George  replied to  Gsquared @7.3.2    2 years ago

Not laughable, SAD! Who locked up the Japanese in concentration camps again? Their long history of racism is well documented.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
7.3.4  seeder  Kavika   replied to  George @7.3.3    2 years ago
Not laughable, SAD! Who locked up the Japanese in concentration camps again? Their long history of racism is well documented.

This isn't about Internment camps it's about Samoa and the application of racist laws to US territories. 

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
7.3.5  George  replied to  Kavika @7.3.4    2 years ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
8  seeder  Kavika     2 years ago

Heading to bed and locking the article. I'll open it again tomorrow.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
8.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Kavika @8    2 years ago

The article is now open.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
9  seeder  Kavika     2 years ago

The issue with some members is once again Dem v Repub. This case and the application of the ''insular laws'' which are rooted in racism and white supremacy are still on the books and enforced in a country that claims all people are equal. Dancing around the obvious racist intent of these laws seems to be a game played by both sides and SCOTUS. The federal government can set the rules/laws for US citizenship but when those laws are based on racism why would the US then support them? 

I hold both parties responsible for the massive miscarriage of justice and for avoiding the true meaning of the US Constitution. For over 100 years the laws have stood and have had adverse effects on the peoples of US territories and after the recent decision by SCOTUS will remain in effect making a mockery of what we, the US claim to be. 

An illegal person can have a baby on US soil and they are considered citizens under US law, yet a person born in Samoa a US territory for over 100 years is not and cannot access all of the rights of true US citizenship. How can anyone square this obvious discrimination, The Samoan people serve in the US Military at a very high rate and Samoa and Guam are forward posts in the Pacific for the US Miliary with Samoa having the finest natural harbor in the Pacific. And as most of you know Guam has a large US military presence and that is being built upon with the concerns now in the Pacific. 

If you are going to argue that the Dems are racist and have done nothing about this miscarriage of justice then you must argue that the same applies to the Repubs. The last 100 years are proof of this. 

If you're going to argue this then argue why Samoans should or should not be US citizens not point fingers at one party or the other. Point your finger at the US for allowing this to be law in day and age.

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
9.1  George  replied to  Kavika @9    2 years ago

I would laud your sudden embracing of bipartisanship if it wasn’t so laughably transparent. You blame republicans for literally everything you feel is wrong, but only one party has had the votes consistently over the last 100 years to change this law and have failed to do so.

as for discussing the law, it is wrong! Period! There is no reason for it to still be on the books.
Do you want to discuss the makeup of the Congress that passed this racist law? 
Senate: Democrats 69 seats veto proof majority.

House: Democrats 262, 93 person majority 

Presidency: Democrat 

So it’s obvious it’s the republicans are equally at fault. 
Do the Samoans get a say? 
Why do we expect the courts to fix this when the Samoan people don’t? Is this another case of, “We know what’s best for you, just sit down and be quiet?”

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
9.1.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  George @9.1    2 years ago
I would laud your sudden embracing of bipartisanship if it wasn’t so laughably transparent. You blame republicans for literally everything you feel is wrong, but only one party has had the votes consistently over the last 100 years to change this law and have failed to do so.

More assumptions by you. Once again stick with the subject matter which I have explained to you. You are not one that should complain or mention bipartisanship since it isn't in your vocabulary.

as for discussing the law, it is wrong! Period! There is no reason for it to still be on the books.
Do you want to discuss the makeup of the Congress that passed this racist law? 
Senate: Democrats 69 seats veto proof majority.

House: Democrats 262, 93 person majority 

Presidency: Democrat 

Yes, that is all well-known and a matter of record.

So it’s obvious it’s the republicans are equally at fault. 
Do the Samoans get a say? 
Why do we expect the courts to fix this when the Samoan people don’t? Is this another case of, “We know what’s best for you, just sit down and be quiet?”

It's obvious that Samoa or any of the other territories do not get a say in it.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
10  Drakkonis    2 years ago

The arguments I've seen here seem sort of ridiculous. Both parties could have done something about this at various points, had they wanted to, but neither have. Logically, neither party wants to do anything about this injustice for whatever reason but don't say why. Presumably because it's a bad, self serving reason they can't admit to so, instead, they put the blame on the other party, hoping to divert attention and accountability. You all seem to be continuing their behavior by doing the same thing. Blaming the other side when it seems clear that both sides, or all three branches are to blame for this. 

Why don't we all recognize that all of them are to blame? 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
10.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Drakkonis @10    2 years ago
Why don't we all recognize that all of them are to blame? 

If you read my comment 9 and others you'll see that is exactly what I did.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11  CB    2 years ago

The other 'thought' process : I located this this AM. Notably, I am not posting the first part of the article due to its length. This read starts about 3 paragraphs down or so in the article:

  . . . .

Opposition to the petition, besides that from the government of American Samoa , came in a brief filed by the Northern Marianas Descent Corporation and United Carolinas Association , both of which are described as “nongovernmental organizations dedicated to the protection and advancement of the interests of the indigenous peoples of the Northern Mariana Islands.”

Both of the organizations “are dedicated to protecting the existing restriction on acquisition of land in the Northern Mariana Islands to persons of Northern Marianas descent, a restriction that has been upheld on the authority of the Insular Cases.”  That restriction might be threatened by full citizenship since it could conflict with federal “equal protection” statutes.

American Samoa also restricts property rights to natives.

In its motion to intervene in the Fitisemanu case, the government of American Samoa wrote, “For 3,000 years, on an archipelago 7,000 miles from this Court, the American Samoan people have preserved  fa⸍a Samoa  – the traditional Samoan way of life, weaving together countless traditional cultural, historical, and religious practices into a vibrant pattern found nowhere else in the world.”

The unique relationship it formed with the U.S. has been in place for more than a century, and now the Fitisemanu petitioners seek to disrupt it, the government said.

The petitioners “would love to claim that their stance serves the interests of the American Samoan people,” it said, but those people don’t share that view. “The American Samoan people have not yet reached consensus on whether to accept the privileges and responsibilities of birthright citizenship – but they firmly believe (that decision) should come through the democratic process, not through a judicial misreading of the Citizenship Clause.”

Further, the American Samoan government’s motion to intervene said, “Nothing prevents petitioners from seeking citizenship for themselves through the streamlined naturalization process that Congress has provided for persons born in American Samoa.”

When it made its determination against Fitisemanu, thereby reversing the lower court, the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals said that the objections from the government of American Samoa had “not been taken into adequate consideration” by the lower court.

Because the Supreme Court did not specify the reason for its decision not to take up the case, it is not clear what role, if any, those objections played in its decision.

“It’s hard to know what the justices thought,” Weare said. “It’s hard to guess what their reasoning was.”

Whatever it was, “We’re going to continue fighting in the courts and in Congress,” he said, adding that Plaskett has already used her position as the Virgin Islands congressional delegate to urge Congress to dismantle the Insular Cases. “The fight goes on.”

This is very interesting. Seems some in American Samoa like their status quo for the 'insulation' from the problems of the world. Very interesting. I hope we can discuss it!

 
 

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