Did Abraham Lincoln Hold Racist Views?
In a recent discussion about FDR, it came up that FDR was a racist because he put the Japanese into internment camps. So I presented that Lincoln was also a racist, by today's standards and was told he wasn't. Here is my presentation based on Lincoln's own words.
In 1858, Lincoln challenged U.S. Senator and leading Democrat Stephen A. Douglas for his seat. The two candidates engaged in a series of seven debates across Illinois. In the sixth debate, held in Quincy on October 13, 1858, Lincoln responded to Douglas’s assertion that Lincoln saw no “distinction between races.” Printed in the Chicago Daily Press and Tribune on October 15, 1858, Lincoln replied:
I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races—that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermingling with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which will ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior. I am as much as any other man in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.
Another time he said:
My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do, it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union...I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free.
https://presidentlincoln.illinois.gov/learn/educators/educator-resources/teaching-guides/lincolns-views-african-american-slavery/
He also advocated relocating freed slaves out of the United States:
Since the early 1850s, Lincoln had been advancing colonization as a remedy for the gradual emancipation of the nation’s enslaved. While he strongly opposed the institution of slavery , he didn’t believe in racial equality, or that people of different races could successfully integrate. And unleashing nearly 4 million Black people into white American society—North or South—was a political nonstarter. So despite the fact that most Black Americans in the 1850s had been born on U.S. soil, Lincoln advocated shipping them to Central America, the Caribbean or “back” to Africa. “If as the friends of colonization hope…[we] succeed in freeing our land from the dangerous presence of slavery; and, at the same time, in restoring a captive people to their long-lost father-land,” Lincoln said during his eulogy for statesman Henry Clay in 1852, “it will indeed be a glorious consummation.”
https://www.history.com/news/abraham-lincoln-black-resettlement-haiti
So the idea that Lincoln was not a racist is just not true. While he did end slavery in the US, he did so to save the union.
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The posts attribute the following quote to Lincoln: “There is a physical difference between the white and the black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together... while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any man is in favor having the superior position assigned to the white race.”
Lincoln made these remarks during one of a series of debates in 1858 with Stephen Douglas, when the men were vying for control in the Illinois General Assembly ( bit.ly/2Z4WkCV ).
In the same speech, Lincoln said: “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races.”
Most people, epically Lincoln, are more complicated than can be explained by simplistic pronouncements and judgments based on cherry picked statements made on the campaign trail.
For instance, Barack Obama said this during a Democratic debate "I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. Now, for me as a Christian, it is also a sacred union. God's in the mix." Only a fool would use those sort of statements ins isolation to describe Obama's beliefs.
Is that why you "cherry picked" a statement by Obama? To provide an example of cherry picking?
Yes. Isn't that very clear?
Well, it seems that you did some cherrypicking with the Obama statement.
Only a fool would try to compare what Obama said and what Lincoln said. But of course, those are only two comments made by Lincoln. The article itself has other instances.
Being on the campaign trail is different than not being on the trail when you make seemingly racist statements, was he appealing to racists with those comments?
Not really, but glad you cleared that up.
Yes. That was the whole point of the quote. How much more obvious does it need to be? I literally wrote,
"Only a fool would use those sort of statements ins isolation to describe Obama's beliefs. "
campaign trail is different than not being on the trail when you make seemingly racist statements
Of course it is. If he had spoken out forcefully in favor of the absolute equality between the races in 1858, he never would have been President. And if he wasn't President....
Yet Lincoln was in favor of colonization and in fact brought the subject up when he invited freed blacks and abolitionists to the WH in 1862 and the preliminary EP. The blowback was such that he never mentioned it again publicly and it was dropped from the final EP.
He was vocal about colonization and had been for some time.
So, was he racist or did he not believe that equity between white and black could exist?
And then changed his mind, as the Emancipation Proclamation and his actions thereafter makes clear.
was he racist or did he not believe that equity between white and black could exist?
But if you want to understand Lincoln's early views on voluntary colonization, you should read them. He's quite capable of speaking for himself.
As I stated he changed his mind or more accurately dropped the subject because of the blowback in his 1862 meeting with free blacks and abolitionists.
I have read them and he is quite clear in his views on it, thus my question to you.
except you didn't. You said he never mentioned it again. Those are not the same thing.
Then by all means enlighten me.
This is my complete comment:
If you don't know the answer to the question I asked you in 2.1.6 that isn't my problem and you best enlighten yourself.
Except you didn't state that in 2.1.6 . That makes your claim in 2.1.8 that you quoted again for some reason, false.
Lol. I just know you have no way to support your false premise in 2.1.6
LMAO, you better read 2.1.5
LOL, you are really out in right field, take a break.
I did, Its my comment. How can you possibly imagine that helps you? Or have you totally given up on making a rational argument and are simply throwing out random words and pretending they are responsive?
ou are really out in right field, take a break
Since you can't support your argument, I guess that's the best you can do. Sad.
That is my comment 2.1.6 to you responding to 2.1.5. Hope this clears up your confusion.
LOL, what is sad is your inability to read and understand.
Cheers.
By a 2022 standards, pretty much every person ever born is a racist (if those standards are applied equitably to all people. some really racist people don’t think members of some races can be racists.) so it’s a meaningless word, particularly when discussing people born 200 years ago in a radically different culture.
Hence my quote at the opening of the article.
My whole reason for writing this was because John posted an article about FDR's Christmas message to the nation and then there was a total off-topic about him being a racist. If Lincoln should be judged in his own time, so should FDR.
Very good and relevant seeding
Thanks!
Thomas Jefferson wrote thousands of words clearly suggesting that he thought the Africans were inferior to whites.
There is no such record of Lincolns racism other than a few passages from a few speeches in heated political campaigns. I think its certainly possible that Lincoln was racist , because he was brought up in a time and place as a child where it was likely a widespread view. But there isnt a lot of record of it.
Jefferson is different.
Thomas Jefferson wrote thousands of words clearly suggesting that he thought the Africans were inferior to whites.
So what? He, like Lincoln or FDR, was also a man of his times and was in general, ahead of them on racial issues for someone born in the mid 1700s. Ultimately his words did significantly more for equality for blacks than almost anyone else.
Thomas Jefferson allegedly knew slavery was wrong, but did next to nothing to end it. Why?
He needed his slaves for economic reasons.
Was that his only reason?
"Lincoln, like the presidents before him and most after, did not show through policy or rhetoric that Black lives ever mattered to them outside of human capital and as casualties of wealth building," said Jeremiah Jeffries, chairman of the SF school board's renaming committee.
ut did next to nothing to end it. Why?
This is from his draft of the Virginia Constitution. The provision was obviously rejected.
Tellingly, neither of those provisions would have effected him personally. He got his and so was willing to shut the door to others.
By closing down new importation of slaves into Virginia, his own slaves would have become more valuable at sale.
Exactly, our clever Southerners ended the Atlantic Slave Trade here in 1808 to boost the value of their slaves while the stupid Cubans and Brazilians continued importing slaves for 60 more years.
It's an acknowledgment of the obvious reality that immediate emancipation was impossible.
The only hope for Virginia to outlaw slavery in 1783 was to do so gradually, and even that was impossible.
Jefferson was being pragmatic and trying to actually offer a solution that had a chance of working.
y closing down new importation of slaves into Virginia, his own slaves would have become more valuable at sale.
Do you have any proof that was his motivation?
Do you think American slaves benefited from the end of transatlantic trade or were harmed by it?
It's astounding how many attack people for not accomplishing the impossible.
One of the problems with calling Lincoln a racist is that he understood , or thought he understood, that he needed to appeal to both racists and non racists if he wanted to succeed in national politics.
I think Lincoln was originally indifferent to the subject of race, other than that he wanted to end slavery. In the Lincoln-Douglas debate noted in the seed, Lincoln made anti-Negro comments in order to counteract Douglas telling the voters that Lincoln was an n lover, so to speak. It was a political calculation.
With this I totally agree. It's impossible to divorce his campaign speeches from their political context.
These sorts of attempted comparisons are problematic at best.
People today can not even begin to comprehend the pressures and complications folks like Abe and FDR faced making such decisions and it’s a fools errand trying to apply standards of today, to decisions made back then.
20-20 hindsight jockeys are worthless in this regard.
Sparty,
That is the point of this article. FDR was dragged out on the rug, and I am pointing out that both these men are being viewed by today's standards.
I’m agreeing with it. My problem is watching people here pick and choose who usually gets judged poorly.
Hint, it’s usually the more conservative people who get judged by today’s standards. Either way I agree, they are foolish comparisons to make.
April 11, 1865: Last Public Address
In Lincoln's last public address, he recommended extending the right to vote to the African Americans who had fought for the Union. This expressed his belief that African Americans should be granted full political equality.
It is also unsatisfactory to some that the elective franchise is not given to the colored man. I would myself prefer that it were now conferred on the very intelligent, and on those who serve our cause as soldiers.
He might have evolved. I know a lot of that came from his relationship with Jefferson Davis.
He obviously did. The purpose of the Civil war went from preserving the union to ending slavery.
It was Lincoln that ended that period of seeing blacks as inferior.
Lincoln stopped the union from ending. He would have done it any way he could. But his views prior to that were racist. The point of this discussion
Lol. you get mad at judging FDR by modern standards but have no problem judging Lincoln by those same standards, despite Lincoln being born generations earlier.
Contemporary standard of "Racism" as used today is meaningless when discussing someone born more than 200 years ago.
Exactly.
LOL... Irony. You kind of missed the point. And had you read my previous commentary you would have seen, that all I was saying is if you judge one, you have to judge them all, or at least anything more than 50+ years ago.
Okay, than you have no basis to object to FDR being called a racist. You can't play the "he was at war card" excuse for FDR, so he's not a racist, and then declare Lincoln (who didn't put people in camps because of their race ) a racist because of his speeches. Pretty much no historical figure will survive the 2022 racism test, so it's silly to categorize every historical person as a racist. Using the same word to describe the racial views of John Calhoun and Lincoln is just idiotic. They're both racists! George Wallace, RFK and Booker T Washington, all racists! The word has no meaning. If everyone is a racist, no one is.
You are twisting my words purposefully. I despise that.
So one last clarification.
If FDR was a racist, then so was Lincoln or you judge both by their time.
Why do you doubt that they both were racist, white men?
Ok Perrie. We have to chalk this one up for you.
Remember tomorrow is another day!
Thanks for that comment Vic. It's good to know that we can have a discussion with an outcome and it was very big of you to acknowledge the point I was trying to make.
Drinker,
The very point I was trying to make is that both men were racist. I never brought up their color. Why are you?
Wikipedia sheds an interesting light on this
I think there is considerable doubt if FDR was personally racist. I dont think there is anything inherent in the internment of the Japanese Americans that indicates that. More likely Roosevelt wanted to keep the nation united for a long war and he somewhat lost control of the narrative to fear mongerers.
Republicans weren’t the main obstacle back then for voting rights. Should we judge the current Democrat party by the Democrats back then?
Not necessarily judge them, but we have to understand that most of the left today fully embraces the ideology of the democrats of the 19th century.
How long will some conservatives tell themselves such tragic tales? The democratic party of today is not a party to segregation. It does not seek to divide people along any type or kind or thought.
Exactly, there are many conservative democrats.
Conservative democrats are in the democratic party, but these conservatives are not in the mode of "southern democrats" that fled away for a conservatism which is outdated, old, decrepit, and dead yet alive.
Unless of course you are any of these things:
- Fiscally responsible
- Pro Life
- Pro 1st amendment (free speech)
- Pro 2nd amendment
- A person who had the temerity to not support Hillary (a deplorable)
- A person who had the temerity to not support Biden (a fascist)
- Pro border control
- Pro Law enforcement
- Pro punishment for criminal activity
- Pro Military
- etc, etc
Of course, there is this illusion that democrats have conceded "pro-" ground to conservatives. It is only a party's delusion. Merry Christmas!
I have asked this before; Today. Is the only important thing about people in history were they nice to blacks?
Oh, you’ll get your junk slapped for that one here.
For the race baiters, yes, of course.
What possible difference does someone's opinion about Lincoln matter today?
About the same as it does for FDR.
And be careful about who you imply is a race-baiter.
Charger,
This discussion got started over not being nice to Japanese Americans, not blacks. So I guess the answer to your question is no.
But I don't think any statues have been taken down over that
No, I don't know of any Japanese that considered themselves black.
It is often stated that history is written by the victors, in this case, more white European men.
Their own women and Native Americans had less worth than a black fieldhand
but no one was lower than a Chinaman. Hell the Texas Rangers guarding the Southern Borders circa
1900 had little to no respect for Tejanos, but that paled compared to their attitudes
about Mexicans and their "shoot on sight" policies about Chinamen.
So Sexism and racism generally belong to the ruling entities, in this case, white men.
Its not just the USA, it is prevalent throughout the rest of the world
usually with a bad dose of religion thrown in.
Racism and sexism are learned, tribalism is in our DNA
But should we judge Lincoln as a man or a president based on this? I do not think so. Lincoln lived in a world where certain things were taken for granted - among them, that the various races of human being were different in some significant way that warranted discrimination. This was an idea as old as civilization and there is just no particular reason that Lincoln, or anyone else should have felt very differently about it.
Now, imagine that Lincoln or any of his contemporaries, rather than living in the ignorance of their times, was exposed to the knowledge we have in the 21st century. Imagine he understood that black, white, or red skin did not determine a person’s capacity for intelligence or compassion. Imagine that he had the opportunity to see that black families and white families could be the same. That black people could be lawyers, doctors, scientists, or artists with competency equal to anyone else. That people of any color could feel the same love or pain that he felt.
That creates a very different foundation for judging a man.
And then even if we could establish that Lincoln had reason to understand the natural equality and universality of the human race, what could he have achieved - even as president - in the political climate of 1860? Is there something more radical he could have done that he didn’t do? I don’t see how. I think everything he did in the context of his times took an extreme level of political and personal courage and leadership - beyond what we might reasonably expect.
It is important to remember and acknowledge this from Lincoln before taking office in 1861:
And so it clear from the excerpt above (more besides in the entirety of the speech, ABRAHAM LINCOLN, “SPEECH OF HON. ABRAHAM LINCOLN AT COOPER INSTITUTE, NEW YORK CITY” NEW YORK, NY (27 FEBRUARY 1860), that Lincoln argued (made a case) for why slavery could not be extended (advanced) westward to "free states." Despite any perceived or suspected impact or advantage southern slave states and their owners thought adding to free state enumeration would give to someday ending slavery.
Incidentally, it could be that this Cooper Institute speech was a direct factor in why once inaugurated Lincoln could not convince southern slate owners to believe he would not eventually 'labor' to end slavery altogether. Inevitably, those slave states secession led to the freeing of all slaves as a direct consequence of them not trusting Lincoln, a president willing to leave them as slaver owners. . . right where he found them. They only had to agree to not going any farther west with owning men/women/children as personal property.
This is one "h" of a long argument from Lincoln on issues related to slavery. Lincoln argued against slavery quite a bit I am discovering through research of his speeches. These speeches are directly accountable for why southern conservatives did not trust (soon after such arguments were delievered) President Lincoln would allow slavery to continue. The southerners, supporters of slavery, did not understand that President Lincoln was a constitutionalist president while deploring slavery in his person.
Check out this speech. It is deep. Mr. Lincoln makes (loves) great debate! There is just too much there to share/quote here.