Oklahoma parent sues after her daughter is allegedly 'severely beaten' by transgender student in bathroom
Category: News & Politics
Via: vic-eldred • last year • 428 commentsBy: Jeffrey ClarkKristine Parks (Fox News)
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
An Oklahoma resident and mother is suing her local school district after her 15-year-old daughter was allegedly "severely beaten" by a 17-year-old transgender student in the girl's bathroom.
The attack, according to the lawsuit filed May 25, occurred at Edmond Memorial High School on Oct. 26, 2022.
The parent is seeking $75,000 in damages for "severe physical and mental injuries, severe physical and mental pain and suffering, and severe emotional distress" that she claims her child suffered at school.
The lawsuit also alleges that the transgender student had "made previous threats of violence" against the victim at school and was searched for weapons by police after his threats against the victim were reported "by another student."
Protesters voice support for transgender inclusion in schools during a march in October 2022.(Mark Kerrison/In Pictures via Getty Images)
Included in the lawsuit is a direct reference to a law Oklahoma Gov. Kevin Stitt's signed on May 25 that requires students at Oklahoma public schools "use restrooms that match the sex listed on their birth certificates."
According to the report filed after the alleged assault and obtained by Fox News Digital, the transgender student listed as student "A" entered the restroom and spoke to a female student. Soon after the two started arguing with each other, a fight broke out.
The student victim, labeled as "V" on the redacted report, told police she was speaking with friends in the girls' bathroom when student "A" approached her with a question. After telling "A" she didn't want to speak with her and why, "A" became angry and asked her if she "wanted to fight" before hitting her in the face. The alleged assailant continued to hit, kick and pull student "V's" hair.
"V" told police the strength of "A"'s punch left her unable to fight back. One friend reported they tried to help, but they were also struck in the face twice. A witness said they worried about their friend because the assailant was "a man."
Police observed one victim had injuries to her "eye, face and head with a possible concussion."
Gov. Kevin Stitt, flanked by House Speaker Charles McCall, third right, and Senate President Pro Tempore Greg Treat, second right, announces details of an education funding on Monday, May 15, 2023, in Oklahoma City.(AP Photo/Sean Murphy)
Edmond Public Schools Superintendent Angela Grunewald spoke out publicly after the incident in a video posted to YouTube in December 2022.
"You may ask yourself how can that happen?" Grunewald said.
"It's hard to explain, but if a parent comes in and enrolls their child as a certain gender, and when you look at that child by all social norms they look and present themselves as that gender, it's not something that you would question," she added.
Grunewald also addressed the confusion around the transgender student's birth certificate, as the police originally found that there was no gender listed on the transgender student's birth certificate.
"Also in high school, birth certificates are not required to start school. So there was no birth certificate in the (student's) file at the time to verify one way or another," Grunewald said.
A spokesperson for Edmond School District told Fox News Digital that it is the practice of the district not to comment on ongoing litigation.
In May, Oklahoma agreed not to enforce a ban on sex reassignment surgery and care for minors.
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I think I'll issue a travel advisory : TO THE GIRL'S RESTROOM!
Why?
How many fights or attacks have occurred in school bathrooms each day?
How many of them involved a transgendered student on the giving, not receiving end?
Why are you only looking at something that occurs infrequently, if it all, instead of what occurs commonly?
Why are certain Congressmen so eager to pass laws to protect children from the LGBTQ+ crowd, but completely ignore the number 1 killer of children in this country?
Counter question - How many are males attacking females? You know, like this situation was.
my 2 sisters were always getting into trouble for beating up boys at school...
How about multiple rapes since some have forgotten so soon.
Pretty damn reprehensible; don't see anyone condoning it.
Still not boys pretending to be girls going into female bathrooms legally and raping and assaulting them.
But you do you.
Seems that leftist will condone this kind of thing from transgenders.
Point being, rapes and assault occur more frequently with so called straight people. But do ignore all that and focus on a small element to try to make some point that trans people are somehow worse...
Are there more straight people than gay people?
How does pointing out that the majority of people commit the majority of assaults make it acceptable for boys dressing as girls to assault girls in girls bathrooms?
How does this one instance make it acceptable to paint all trans people with the same brush for the actions of one.
Who did that?
the seeder of this article.
You notice that they do the same with immigrants?
1 immigrant commits a crime, and right wingers splash it all across the comment sphere, while ignoring that citizens have committed the same crime 10 times in the time it took him to type his comment.
Too many!
Again too many! Even one is too many.
Yet this article is only concerned with the occurrence which occurs less often, and has ignored all the previous ones that did not include a transgender child. Which leads to only one conclusion.
The author is more concerned that there is a transgender child in the school, than he/she is worried about all the assaults that occur there.
Same people who blamed the girl for getting raped by the boy wearing woman clothes in the Virginia bathroom are fine with a boy punching a girl in the girls bathroom.
Its identity Olympics. First, figure out who is the most "oppressed" person involved is , and then figure out how to blame the other person
I'm not sure I've seen anyone do that.
I've also not seen anyone claim transgender people are "worse".
The complaint here is that the often militant defenders of trans people are continually, emotionally, and usually abusively demanding that we modify long established institutional structures in ways that make them less safe or fair for the people they were originally designed to protect.
Bullshit.
I'm sure you'd like to think so.
So please demonstrate where anyone has claimed that all transgender people are like this boy.
Then please demonstrate where anyone has indicated that trans people are more violent.
In fact, just the opposite is happening on this very seed. We have people claiming that the girl deserved the beating for something she must have said.
What in the world do you think all the anti-trans bills are for, all the trans hate, all the pride boycotts. But yeah, it is all bullshit because of this one instance...
You're correct, as usual Ozz, some seem desperate to smear LGBTG over nothing - I don't know what this has to do with anything. A big nothingberder.
why is it that their links NEVER support their allegations????
what does ronin's article have to do with this?
that's the m.o.
exactly, because the child being transgender has nothing to do with the alleged assault
for all we know, the transgender child was finally fighting back against years of bullying
yup, complete and utter bullshit
They are to preserve protections for women that have been in place for decades. There were reasons at the time for establishing those protections. Just because current liberal trans advocates don't understand those reasons does not mean they are no longer valid.
Women's bathrooms and locker rooms are old school "safe spaces" that most people think we still need and are not willing to give up.
I'm guessing you will never consider the idea that it's not the trans people. It's the batshit lunatic subset of their defenders.
Y'know... those people who demand everybody else change things however they dictate and then accuse anybody who objects of "hate" or "fear" or some other character flaw. Yeah. People hate those fuckers. With good reason.
The very idea that any person who wants to keep traditional protections for women must only want that because they "hate" trans people is just petulant bullshit.
I'm not sure what 'it all' you're talking about, but this instance is a great example of the larger problem.
If this piece of shit was not transgender, he would be universally condemned. People would be in favor of extended jail time, or possibly advocating for the varsity football team to take care of the matter on the side.
But because he identifies as trans, he jumps ahead of her in the victim hierarchy. So now we have people talking about how a 17-year-old boy beating up a 15-year-old girl was probably justified. She "fucked around and found out". She must have deserved it because she was probably bullying him.
Well... unsurprisingly.... not everybody accepts the idea that his being trans should mean it's OK for him to give her a concussion because she might have hurt his feelings. So the militant trans-defender dickheads immediately start accusing those people of "hate".
BTW, you still didn't demonstrate where anybody has said all TG people are like this boy, or that they are more violent.
You're right, I won't.
LGBT people nine times more likely than non-LGBT people to be victims of violent hate crimes
Gee I wonder why, could it be seeds such as this one which have the sole purpose of driving hatred?
These kinds of seeds are also why LGBTQ people have a high rate of suicide and attempted suicide, but they're supposedly pro-life. Yeah, right.
inciting such animosity against the LGBTQ community essentially puts targets on their backs - including drag queens/performers
kind of reminds me of an incident I witnessed back in the 80's. ultra religious bob the waiter was unhappy with our gay sous chef tony, he yells a gay slur at him during a tirade and tony drags him thru the back door of the kitchen and beats the fuck out of him. then he tosses him into the dumpster. he was still in there whining for help a half hour later when I left. the next time I saw him was when he came in for his last check and his arm was in a sling. I guess he didn't notice that tony was twice his size and forgot about that judge not lest ye be judged stuff. a year or 2 later he ended up eating a pistol after his wife left him for another man. he didn't see that coming either. bummer.
If it were me Tony would have had an unfortunate meeting with a baseball bat multiple times. Aluminum preferred- I like the pinging noise it makes when it bounces off bullies heads that have short fuses and over react.
Kind of reminds me of the bullies that harassed me throughout my time in public schools. Small brains, even smaller genitalia, and very short fuses. It took a while for them to process insults; but once it registered in their infinitesimal brains the reaction was always the same. They were great at attacking anyone smaller or different from them. Not so good meeting the business end of a stop sign rounding a corner.
Insults don't give anyone the right to physical assault someone else. If you aren't smart enough to come up with a good comeback- chances are it was deserved.
funny how you're not more sympathetic then...
To a bully overreacting to being called a name? Why would I be sympathetic to that?
Oh, you thought I was referring to the guy making a gay slur? Don't condone it; and wouldn't do it- but still doesn't give Tony the right to assault him.
I've dealt with more "Tonys" than I can count. They only learn through severe pain (sometimes severe bouts of severe pain) from unknown sources. Once they start living in fear, never knowing when their next beating will come, they tend to stop being bullies. Funny how they don't like being on the receiving end.
Leftists do love their criminals- and their bullies it seems.
yes - alleged victims tend to have empathy
I have yet to see that from a supporter of the former 'president'
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Gotta love edited quotes ... /S
“And why????” What’s the “why?”
There seems to be some undivulged provocation here. I guess it’s completely outside the realm of possibility that “V” was somehow bullying or otherwise being shitty to her assailant because this story just doesn’t want to go there. Kinda sounds like she fucked around and found out.
Yeah getting punched will do that. It’s not like the movies where people just slug each other over and over and fun music plays in the background.
So, it was multiple people against one. Sounds fair.
I learned early on in life that if you pick a fight with someone bigger than yourself....you're gonna end up in the nurse's office
When in doubt, blame the victim.
she was asking for it, right?
I didn’t blame anyone. I said we had incomplete information, and I was keeping an open mind.
That may turn out to be true. Are you saying the possibility does not exist?
According to the story, the “aggressor” did not start out wanting to fight. But the “victim” said something and then there was a fight. Those facts do not seem to be in dispute.
You are rationalizing reasons to justify why a boy assaulted a girl without any justification for your speculation other than wishcasting.
What evidence do you have that there was no justification?
You’re really squirming around a lot to avoid discussing the article. You’d rather talk about me instead.
The lack of any evidence that justifies a boy assaulting a girl in the girls bathroom. It's not my job to rule out all possible events in the universe. If you have evidence that justifies a boy assaulting a girl in a girl's bathroom, I'd be more than happy to evaluate it. Do you have evidence the the girl forced the boy into the girl's bathroom at knife or gunpoint and threatened to kill him? Your belief that it exists is not evidence that it does exist
ally squirming around a lot to avoid discussing the article.
Really, I thought I was discussing the fact that a 17 year old boy assaulted girl in a girl's bathroom. I admit that I'm surprised at the compulsive need some have to justify a boy assaulting a girl. I was raised different in that I was taught there was no justification for a man to beat up a women. But times change.
Here’s what we have:
Sounds like she was provoked by something this girl said. I find it curious that the specifics of what was said are not divulged. Perhaps that’s because it was something that she’s not particularly proud of - something she knew she shouldn’t have said. That interpretation may not be exactly what happened, but it does fit the available facts.
The law and common sense recognize the existence of “fighting words” - speech so egregiously offensive that it shocks the conscience and a violent response is almost inevitable. That doesn’t excuse the violence, but it does make it something we can understand. In other words, this didn’t happen for no reason and the “victim” may not be the innocent angel this article’s author would like us to believe she is.
Not when you’re talking about what I wish for.
I’m not interested in justifying it. I want to understand it. I find the implication here that it happened because the attacker is trans to be lacking in merit.
If any other 17 yr old boy responded to a 15 yr old girl that way, he'd be in jail.
Actually it is jumping to conclusion when no facts are available.
I have confidence it will all be sorted out and alot is still unknown, like what transpired before including any complaints lodged against the 15 year old before she was beat up but none of that would justify beating her up.
If you say so.
I reached no conclusion, but I can’t control your imagination.
To be clear: both are minors, yes? If there no other way to fix this with discretion without exploiting the moment with media exposure and blowing it up to the tune of 75,000 dollars in court. Of course there is, but then where would be the fake outrage?
Love the way you defend the bully.
If the school wants to discipline the girl for verbal abuse fine. But the boy had no right to physically assault her; or her friend. This wasn't a fair fight- so quit trying to pretend otherwise.
Wouldn't be surprised if this transgender bully ends up receiving some physical retaliation if the school and legal system don't act.
This is taking me back to the not so fun days of my time in public schools. Get out the social and school hierarchy order chart. I am sure the chart has changed with the left's new social order. But one thing will remain the same; people at the bottom prepare for the worst.
Lies are not persuasive.
But that’s ok?
You are defending males beating females if they get too mouthy.
That is soooo fucked up.
Why lie?
Not lying.
"She fucked around and found out"???
What the fuck?
When you say I endorse males beating up females for being too mouthy, you are lying. Period. I don’t endorse people beating up people for being mouthy, as a general matter. But I do understand that words can provoke a fight.
Maybe try not cherry picking people’s comments. I have talked at length about how there may be a complicated back story to this. We know very little about the details of these people or their history. I’m not surprised you chose to misrepresent the full scope of my position so you could “win” at internet.
Definitely not endorsing. Thank you for conceding that much, though.
This is a mistake a lot of people make. Analysis, understanding, and explanation are not the same thing as justification. It can help us to decide that an action was justified (self defense, for example), but the inquiry itself is not justification.
You can always have a “turn the other cheek” philosophy, and that’s fine. I prefer that myself. The reality, though, is that that is not always so easy to live out. That’s why the law can recognize concepts like “fighting words” or the “burning bed” defense.
People who have been victims of long-term bullying or other abuse can snap and act with extreme violence over what can seem like insufficient provocation in the moment - if all we consider is the immediate circumstance.
It’s possible - and I only say “possible” - that this student had been the victim of long term bullying from the student she hit, and maybe from others, as well. Perhaps, peaceful options had been exhausted. Perhaps parents were unsupportive. Maybe the school administrators ignored the problem or were ill equipped to handle it.
It seems to me like it might actually take courage to be vulnerable and walk up to a group of people who maybe don’t like you and try to talk to them. Being rejected and insulted in that moment could be very triggering.
When I see a story so focused on the trans status of the student, with nothing more to explain the situation, I seriously have to consider that there is prejudice at work. Trans students go to school every day and don’t attack people, so there’s no special reason to think that it is inherent in being trans. Is it the testosterone? I don’t see how. Boys go to school every day and don’t beat up girls. Besides, we don’t know anything about this person’s body. For all we know, they’ve been on puberty blockers and were actually the smallest person in the room.
How can thinking people look at this story and just accept the proposition that one student attacked the other because they are trans and therefore just a violent predator? Surely, there must be more going on than just that.
I didn't say endorse. I said defend.
Which is exactly what you're doing.
You are looking for an excuse for this boy beating up girl two years younger than he is.
The ONLY reason you're doing that is because he's in the alphabet club.
If he was not trans, you would not give a fuck about how complicated the backstory is.
I'm very sure you never said Ray Rice's girlfriend "fucked around and found out".
Either is wrong. Don’t be disingenuous.
This is a lie and you should know better by now as I have explained my purpose in detail repeatedly. I seek to understand the situation at a level beyond the simplistic prejudice of “trans boys are aggressive and dangerous to ‘real’ girls.”
No, the only reason this is a news story - and the only reason it got seeded - is because this kid is trans. It’s the same kind of prejudice that leads some people to use derogatory terminology like “alphabet club.”
(You’ll likely be offended that I use prejudice to describe something you said, but you probably won’t allow that anyone else could reasonably be offended by “alphabet club”)
That’s obviously false. I dig into many stories that get seeded that have nothing to do with trans issues. You know better.
Sometimes it takes two to fight. She did spit in his face, so I would expect at least a return spit. What followed was extreme, though, and we got to see it on video. So, not only were these different situations, but we had a lot more information. Everything I have said here has been about getting more information.
Apparently, without any evidence - and in spite of evidence to the contrary - you think that what happened with minors in the bathroom of this high school is very much like an adult professional football player brutally beating his fiancée.
Deflection fail, nobody said that. let's be 100% clear, there is no reason for a 17 year old boy to beat a 15 year old girl, PERIOD!!!!! I don't care how he identifies.
Explain "she fucked around and found out".
That's what people say when blaming the victim in an attempt to find an excuse for the perpetrator and justify a violent assault. So if you have some different usage of the phrase, by all means, let's hear it.
Nobody should be beating on anybody! I don't care if it's a boy hitting a girl or a girl hitting a boy, etc.
Girls are not all sugar and spice and everything nice. She should have whacked him a few times. At least kicked him in his balls. Girls need to learn to defend themselves against attackers. She may have provoked it, she may not have. But she shouldn't have just laid down and taken it
From the seeded article, the boy had threatened the girl previously and the cops were called and he was even searched for weapons.
He was 17. She was 15. Would they even likely be sharing classroom space? Why didn't the school take the boy's threats seriously after the police report? How long between the police incident and the violence? Days? Weeks? Was the violence in retaliation for documenting the threats with the police? If this was a married couple, the wife is usually in danger after reporting domestic violence. Could this be on the same level?
There is very little information available at this time.
I need a lot more information about this before rushing to the conclusion that a 15 year old girl deserved a beating by a 17 year old boy in the girl's restroom. Hopefully, everyone will have their day in court on this one. When the facts are made public, then maybe our school systems can learn how to deal with situations like this.
What would she have gained by fighting back (even if she could have)? A more thorough beating? Giving the boy an excuse that she was his "equal" in a boxing match?
What would the victim have gained?
From the seeded content........
Of course there is. This might not be one of those times, but there are reasons. Self-defense being the most obvious.
It means I am open to the possibility that she started it somehow.
According to her mother, the boy stole from the girl. The girl told him to keep whatever it was and leave her alone.
Seriously? If a 17 year old man can’t get away from a 15 year old girl he is no kind of man….. you may be on to something with the mentally damaged “boy”
There is very little information available at this time, indeed. It's incomplete. And so far the only one speaking on behalf of the 17 years old is. . . nobody . Even as the spotlight is on his trans-MUSCULAR body (which remains to be discovered).
Something is not right in the telling of this for now. Like the lawyer in the FOX News interview segment, I await legal discovery. I hope we hear more about this one. Because right now my intuition is signaling there is more to this than is being 'fought' over in discussion.
Now then with the above covered. It is. . .sad and unfortunate that this happened. Nobody should be causing mental and physical, especially physical harm to anyone, and if this trans-youth has unjustifiable (day in court to determine) to a school girl of any age: Shame on him. Even worse, now the lawyers are involved.
Well George, he is trans-youth to some degree. And for the record, 15 years old girls can be 'fast' and talk a lot of $hit just like a boy or transyouth can. There is too many unanswered questions to conclude anything at this point. But to your point: S/he is trans-youth. Which kind of puts them in league with each other.
This insistence on a political talking point to emphasize the ages (17/15) and boy versus girl imagery is a deliberate attempt to justifiably or justifiably, as the case may turn out, to draw us into his trans-nature being odd, dangerous, and unstable. We don't know that for sure yet. Not from this article.
The account is one-sided (as told by the girls parent/lawyer) and a reporter.
The narrative is incomplete and it has holes in it.
No excuses for a biological male beating a female. I don’t care what disorder he suffers from.
I know, right?
You would think we would need to explain that.
Well I will go you one farther: I don't believe people should be harming one another. I hope that settles that. What will occur now is a court will determine what happened and fill in the holes that are lacking exposure in this article. Right now, the story sounds SENSATIONAL, in my opinion.
And even you seem to have politics in mind when pushing this narrative of a "biological" 17 years old male (brute) going up against a 'child-like' and reasonably helpless15 years old female (dove).
If the "dove" gets to have an excuse, then the "brute" gets to have an excuse as well.
Finally, where is the other side of the encounter?
Lastly, be careful in how you present this going forward, because as a black male this emphasis on "biological male" trans-female versus cis-female reminds me a lot of a past in the country when black men did not stand a chance because of whom they were up against. Only the characters are different.
In this context, please be the defense council for the men who burned women at the stake for being witches.
The women's defense would be what? That they were not witches.
What would be the defense for the men who burned them at the stake? What would be the defense for the woman who either identified the witches or supported the punishment?
History tells us what people are capable of doing and believing when beliefs are used as a basis for fact. Are witches real? If so, should they be put to death because a religious book says so?
Should laws be made based on people's emotions? Should it be legal to punish people for hurting other people's feelings? If so, then should Perrie be leveling monetary fines against offenders or notifying the police when someone flags a comment as hurtful in some way?
Please help me understand how it is possible to legislate feelings.
I wish everyone was capable of having a rational conversation like this recent one with younger people. The conversation did not solve anything, but it prompted reasons to have more discussion instead. In a conversation, if facts don't matter, then how is resolution possible?
I like how 17 is a “man” when it suits people to make him even more evil and scary.
If you need to be told that the law defines an 18 year old as an adult, and a 17 year old as a minor, then you aren’t educated enough to be on the computer without supervision.
I’ve addressed what you wrote with all the consideration it deserved.
At what age is it legal to hit other people?
I googled. I did not find age, but I did find a good article that says it is never legally acceptable to hit someone for words.
At any age, if you have a legally acceptable reason, like self-defense.
Read what I cited. It is not legal to hit first and never because a person doesn't like someone else's looks or words.
In this instance, was the male acting in self-dense?
I know what you cited, but I don’t know why you went to the trouble. I never said it was legal to hit someone because they don’t like their looks or words.
It doesn’t sound like it, but I never said they were.
Okay. Thanks for the clarification. This has been a long discussion. I can't remember who said what.
Maybe the people who believe that words are justification for violence against others will learn something about the law before they learn firsthand from experience what boundaries are.
At what age should children be taught to not use violence to ease emotional overload so they will have coping skills as an adult to handle rejection?
But the school can be sued for not enforcing state law that resulted in bodily harm to a student which is why there is a civil suit?
Ah, yes. If only children just simply did what they were taught.
What does that mean?
HI Mocowgirl, I'm sorry but I am not sure what you are addressing in the context of your comment (above). The gist of my comment 4.5.21 (in answer to George's comment) is this:
We've only heard from one side of the issue that involves a 15 years old girl and a 17 years old (trans)boy. And, the issue that is being 'drilled down' on in the article is the transboy being mean to a girl or several girls. And a civil lawsuit for 75,000 thereabouts being leveled. We don't know if the parents of the transboy will fight it (or the school district), or have any idea of how this transboy will defend himself.
I don't know what happened. But it is clear to me that this telling of the narrative, involving politics (likes and dislikes) of transyouth, is highly charged at this point.
If you read the article and do google searches, there is enough information to know without one doubt that the male physically assaulted a female in a girls restroom.
There is no side that legally justifies physical assault over words or being rejected - which is probably why we will never hear from him or his parents since the civil lawsuit is against the school and not the parents and boy. As a minor, any charges against the boy will probably be sealed and his name never legally released in standard news media unless he continues to assault people as a legal adult.
Do you know of a moral reason that justifies physical assault over words or being rejected?
Mocowgirl, warning I have only watched 12 minutes plus of this video with more than 12 minutes left to go as I have a project to complete today. That being said.
Let me get right to this point.
First. There are superficial social constructs some homosexuals use while 'fonding' around with each other such as calling themselves, "girl" and using the female pronoun, "she."
Second. There is the social construct that people who dress the part of women more than their male counterparts do, because they favor their feminine 'side.'
Three. Then, there is medical science. Medical science is 'confounding' what we know about sex, gender, through surgeries, hormone usage, and the end result is something EMERGENT.
Four. A male who to the naked eye is appearing as female will have a splendid time living life as a female, but one hell of a time living life as a male.
It is the sort of thing that happens when a male becomes a castrated eunuch (not sure if there is a female counterpart to this - can't look it up right now); what is he after his body parts began to soften (and whatever effects accompany the processes of the eunuch mind)?
A transperson is medically INDUCED changes which may have a significant impact on his/her psyche and physical ability. Therefore, the 'RIGOROUS' two gender categories simply can't contain such people. That is why we see the categories expanding and sociology attempting to keep up with it all.
More later. . . running.
Thanks for the reply.
It does not change their DNA.
Nor does using artificial hormones mean the person experiences life the same way that people with biological hormones do. It may or may not be close to the same. We don't know. This is the feeling realm where there is really no way to measure feelings.
So while, I have no desire to legislate consensual sexual relationships between adults, that does not mean that biological male and females and chemically produced male and females are the same, or even in the same ballpark as same either physically or emotionally.
Bottom line, if a person changes what they can about their biological sex, it does not mean that they will be accepted as always having been their altered sex because their bodies cannot perform the same functions as biological males and females. How their minds really compare is anybody's guess.
I do know that males, who are not castrated, but posing as female and wanting sexual relationships with biological females is likely to be the males who have the most difficult time ever finding a female friend, much less a female sex partner. Lesbians don't do men. Heterosexual females most likely are not going to be sexually attracted to a man in a dress. Just my observation of heterosexual females as a heterosexual female. So if the male doesn't learn to handle a whole lot of rejection from females, his life will likely be very frustrating. He has to learn that no one is required to spend their life trying to understand something they may not be capable of understanding.
Not being flip in any way, but human behavior is very confusing to biological females, also. We don't understand the average biological male because if we did, the majority of us would likely remain single all of our life. The internet is filled with discussions about abuse and betrayal. Teenage girls may have already watched their mother or sisters suffer through dysfunctional relationships and are wise enough to have learned what they need to avoid to protect themselves from relationships that will not be good for them.
Good comment.
Now can I ask you to 'walk with me' for while. . . .
. . . I want ask a series of questions and get your 'feel' or if I may. . .logic on this.
1. Why do you think a boy wants to imagine/become a (trans-)girl?
2. When do you think a boy want so use a female bathroom (with other girls)?
3. What happens to the trans-female who is REQUIRED by state law to "use the bathroom of her born sex"?
4. If one is 'ordealing' to appear in public as a girl or woman. . . how is the facade for a lack of a better word sustained. . .if she is seen coming and going out of male REQUIRED places?
5. She can not maintain the facade, she will be exposed. She will find herself explaining 'who/what/why' to everyone 'endlessly.' It would defeat the (costly) purposes of becoming a trans-female (to be outed on a routine basis).
1. Number 5 above is what the conservatives want for 'her.' To be defeated. To continue at a loss.
CB,
So often, I wish that the world was a fairer place for everyone. I wouldn't know where to start, but I do think that if we all work together to make it a safer place for everyone that we should all benefit because when people feel safe they can be more accepting of others.
This sports dilemma issue for trans-females is complex to remedy, because the main reason a person is trans-female is to appear in nearly every sense to be a woman and . . . in the case of sports. . . a woman needing to use her physical talents-you've guessed it as a woman. To compete against boys would 'out' her. To compete in an all TRANS LEAQUE would 'out' her—effectively self-defeating the purposes of being trans and importantly fails to satisfy.
This is a tough one. (Medical) Science may hold the key to a solution. . .someday.
Incidentally, to dial into the male side of this: Transmales with sports potential are faced with a similar set of issues.
Apparently, (it is rumored) there are trans-MALES who are already using MENS rooms on a routine basis. I remember when I first heard about this/that: Frankly, I was 'horrified' and felt (as a homosexual man) that I would not like it. Now then, I have met several women whom have transitioned to males right before my eyes with full facial hair and all and broader shoulders. It have gotten over the 'icky' feeling of seeing them in the men's room.
Because I realize they are seeking the same thing I am seeking ACCEPTANCE in a harsh world.
Finally this, I have RESEARCHED the hybrid trans-male who still has 'lady-parts' below. It is. . .interesting to say the least. All things being equal. . .I wonder (to myself and here aloud) if the experiment of a homosexual male and a trans-male with lady parts could be something that could work for a lifetime.
Yes, it begins with inclusion, equity/equality, and diversity. There are people (traditionalists) who love to keep the country and the world the same as it was in its inception - a nation, world for the few (in majority) and by doing so they go out of their way to exploit and damn the rest of humanity to difficult, unfulfilled lives as only partially fulfilling what ever destiny they may be intended to (be allowed by the 'majority' or in this country an increasingly strong, aggressive, and vocal traditionalist minority) to accomplish.
It strikes me there are traditionalists born in every generation who do not wish and fight 'for life' judging certain groups of people unlike themselves-and otherwise harmless-to ever be anything that is different from themselves.
When was the world’s inception?
Exactly, the pace of change has nothing to do with it, they are just despicable people.
Huh?
Number 1. Define what it is to be a girl and why a boy could imagine they were one. What is the criteria for thinking like a girl?
Number 2. If a boy is an intact teenager that is sexually attracted to girls, I shouldn't have to explain why he wants to be in a female only space where he can interact with girls. If he just wanted to use a bathroom, he shouldn't be in the girls' restroom because he wouldn't need to be.
Number 3. This is a male education issue and should be treated as one. Males need to be taught that they don't get to bully or physically attack other males - including the ones wearing clothing usually associated with females. If males can't be taught not to be violent to other males, this is not a female problem and should not be made a female problem.
Number 4. People should not be living a facade. People, who cannot or will not be openly who they are, have never given anyone the opportunity to know them. Plus, how are they going to date? People, who are friends with the facade, may not take too kindly to "Surprise, here's who I really am!" If a person doesn't have the strength to present themselves to the world, don't expect others to fight their battles for them when they won't fight their own. The very first battle is to learn to accept, love and validate self before expecting others to do.
Our society needs to grow up. If society is going to take children to drag shows, they can surely adapt to people using the appropriate restrooms for their biological sex.
Number 5. See Number 4.
Feel free to question me on any thought I expressed. My thoughts are on how I have had to take endless criticism for "making waves" from before I ever entered grade school. I found the freedom to be me meant that I had to be willing to be my own best friend and quit expecting anyone to ever agree with me regardless of how many "facts" I could introduce into a conversation. I also learned to avoid having any meaningful conversations with people who based their decisions on "feelings" because I am just not wired to understand them on a level that doesn't leave both of us frustrated most of the time.
A male is not a female. Claiming it is a fact does not make it a fact.
This applies to everyone -----I will repeat people should not be living their life as a facade as something they are not. They are lying to themselves and they are lying to the people around them.
No one likes a liar. Who wants to be friends with a facade?
This is no different than being duped by a covert narcissist. The truth eventually comes out and it is devastating to find out the truth that the person you loved & trusted never existed - never.
Inclusion does not involve biological males in women's restrooms, locker rooms, and sports. It is especially ludicrous when said males are sexually attracted to females. We wouldn't allow heterosexual males in women's restrooms, locker rooms and sports. Trans woman wants sex with females. Heterosexual male wants sex with females. Where is the difference that makes one acceptable in women's restrooms, locker rooms and sports and the other is not?
Tran women are males. They are not equal to females except in a world that embraces facades over reality.
Diversity? As having a society that recognizes it should legislate adults' consexual sex lives? I agree. Diversity as saying that males are females based on feelings? I need facts it is possible that males without ovaries and female DNA can experience the same emotions that women do....and furthermore why they should ever be grouped with women as long as they have a penis. If they truly "feel" like a woman, they wouldn't want one.
Forgive me, it is not a trick question. I want your take on it. I know mine (as a homosexual male who has been so since my youth). And yes, there was once upon a time that had I a serious medical opportunity in my youth to transition to female. . . all things being equal. . . I might have done it. I certain considered it afar off! That is how strong my desires (then and may be even now) to be love, wanted, needed, and depended on by a male. (A song comes to mind here:
The Main Ingredient - Just don't want to be lonely 1974 LYRICS
I am still looking/not looking at this point for a lifetime for that man in a heterosexual world that has surpassed my youth, middle-age, and now senior years. Not sure if that answers your question about criteria.
On that question. . . I can only say this (yes, it's a puzzling back and forth of being male and female for me): In high school, I knew a fellow who thought like a girl so much so that he wore girls' halter tops everyday to high school. . .I knew him well and he had the audacity to be called, "Butterfly"
(Butterfly if you're out there-shout out!).
Butterfly wore girls pants, wore perfume, lip gloss, and even danced 'like a girl' and this was back in the day! Basically he existed as a girl. . . in his teen years. And yes, he was accepted (I want to say) by all. I never saw him verbally abused by anyone. To be clear, Butterfly did not go to my high school, but we had years of association together.
I never fully understood him being and conducting himself with that kind of liberality. So what am I saying?
I might have become a transperson if it was possible to do so - but, since it wasn't possible. . . I just stuck and found what satisfaction I could as a homosexual male-attire and all!
I have no understanding of the CRITERIA Butterfly was using to be a girl!
? I am not sure we are discussing the same set of issues. That said I have been posting several videos of a transfemale (up top only s/he says) named Flame Monroe who has sex with women and has two biological children to boot. . .so I do know of what you speak. To me that is another form of diversity. And it goes without saying that Flame Monroe wants inclusion.
Check this out: Caution: Language.
Flame Monroe on How The LGBTQIA+ Community Be Tripping
There is some reality talk in the video and then in another part of the presentation. . .he talks about his kids and their two mothers. . . and his sex life with them.
I, of course, have not been acquainted with this type of Queen/transwoman before. . . I still find her/him shocking (a bit) to today. But, she/he is making gets a lot of airtime on black male production radio shows. And that is saying something about INCLUSION!
Well, we have all got to (continue) coexisting somehow. We have to manage acceptance or we end up continuing the past 'traditions" which only work for a few (majority) and others are just ordealing through their youth, adult life, middle age, seniority, and finally death. Inclusion is the way. We have got to find a way to let people who are doing no harm live their lives in our country to the fullest. (It has not happened satisfactorily yet.)
This sports dilemma in transfemale/cis female sports is the latest test of our ability to solve a difficult question brought on my medical science.
Loneliness is at epidemic proportions in the US according to some news items I have read. I don't doubt it because marriage is at an all-time low in the US (and other countries).
According to reports on "happiness" that I have read - the happiest women are single without children. The happiest couples are those who have never had children. The unhappiest/unhealthiest people are single men.
My thoughts on this are there are valid reasons why women are staying single rather than risk their sanity and health in bad relationships. If they find a compatible companion, it's fine and if they don't, it's fine. This means that males are having more and more difficulty find a mate to put up with them if they are emotionally needy or abusive. Women (of any age) should not be expected to be men's counselors, mommies, or punching bags.
I've known several lesbians since I was in high school. To date, I don't know of any of them maintaining a lasting friendship much less a marriage.
As far as homosexual men, there's only been a couple that have ever discussed their relationships with me. One had found a lifelong companion and married him and seemed content. The other was the most talented hair stylist I've ever had. I couldn't really afford him so our association was brief. He had moved to my area from Dallas because his boyfriend had beaten the literal crap out of him and he fled Dallas to save his life. He was a charming, charismatic fellow who had had the misfortune of being in a relationship with a very jealous man. I haven't seen him in 15 years, but occasionally I think of him and hope he finally found the right companion.
Relationships are difficult and unless both people are emotionally healthy, it is probably best to avoid them altogether unless the goal is to be abused.
I am talking about teen girls being forced to share intimate spaces with males who want to fuck them. I don't think I can make it any clearer.
So the question stands why should that be legal just because a male says he is a teen girl despite the fact that he is a teen boy who wants to fuck girls?
Addendum: Medical science is fulfilling a need. By creating phenoms of a sort. That is, making it possible for certain males and females to live out their dreams. But of course, the 'devil' is in the details. As Flame Monroe is a comedian, s/he has halted her full transition for private reasons and still sleeps with women and lives to tell jokes about it: The comedian way, I guess.
But, generally speaking, most of these transpeople want to be taken seriously as either males or females -which they are not before transitioning. But, Flame Monroe remains an example of your concern, nevertheless. Though, I have no reason to suspect s/he is attacking anyone. Yes! S/he does use the lady's restroom.
Hey! Flame Monroe goes to talk shows and offers keen insights on the trans experience, maybe s/he could solve the sports world trans/cis problem?
They are not after transitioning either.
Even after transitioning, the male is not the same as a biological female and will likely have difficulty finding a heterosexual male who will be able to mentally equate them as being a woman. All the surgery and artificial chemicals in the world does not change a male into a biological female. It can create a reasonable facade that the trans can identify as who they really are. The heterosexual male's brain will have to have wired to accept that a male can really be female because of chemicals and surgery.
Heterosexual females and trans males don't seem like much of a possibility of friendship or sexual relationship.
None of this is about acceptance or not acceptance.
It is just how nature has wired the heterosexual brain through millions of years of evolution so we reproduce for the survival of the species.
Because of birth control and the options to satisfy biological needs for sex, we are moving away from the desire for sex for reproductive reasons. This may cause a re-wiring of heterosexual brains to be more accepting of satisfying sexual needs with partners that previously our brains rejected as unacceptable.
I really don't know, but evolution has a policy of use it or lose it, so in a few generations, anything is possible.
Or AI will become intelligent, decide that humans are not worthy as existing, and become our overlords. Some people are saying it is not only possible, but likely.
With that, I need to call it a night. Pleasant Dreams.
Rejection? As in unrequited affection? I don't know that this is the issue with these two individuals. I don't get that from the article.
I don't believe in people physically harming one another.Though, I know these things happen often in the real world when tempers flare up. I don't know that this is a case of unrequited love or affection.
The article says this is a transgendered 17 years old. I don't read where s/he is sexually attracted to girls or the girls involved in this incident.
I would ask you consider that she is in the girl's bathroom because of being trans-female. (And the bathroom is appropriate in such a case.)
Well now. . . where does it say in the article that anybody is thinking or was thinking about sex or that sexual violence occurred?
You are wasting your time CB. They will only see what they want to.
As in rejection of acknowledging they exist for any reason is what I meant. The victim's mother stated that her daughter was frightened of the boy and told him to leave her alone. That was in the video I posted of the victim's mother and her lawyer talking about the reasons the civil suit was filed.
The 17 year old boy flat refused to leave the 15 year old alone according to the victim's mother and her lawyer. The 17 year old boy threatened the 15 year old girl with bodily harm the week before he assaulted her in the girls' bathroom. That is why the police were called and searched him for weapons the week before the assault happened.
The 17 year old boy would not accept that the 15 year old girl had rejected wanting to know him for any reason.
Those are the known facts to date that I have found on the internet and posted on this seed somewhere.
The article did not say so. This conversation is about trans rights and what trans people want.
You are the one that is pushing that is safe for teenage girls to have intact teenage males in teenage female spaces.
If these teenage boys (claiming they are really girls) want to have sex, who are they going to have sex with - males or females?
No, the girls' bathroom is not appropriate for an intact male.
This is a male issue and should be handled as such. There is no reason that people with a penis should not be using the same restroom.
Keep believing fox news, that's the ticket...
Well of course you would say that because it is consistent with your TRADITIONAL worldview. In the case of McCowGirl I will admit to be being a bit surprised at her holding firm to a traditional value on this complex issue. BTW, beyond the world of bathrooms (which can be remedied by UNISEX bathrooms) and sports competition. . . women are coaching male (football/basketball) sports and serving in the military on ships at sea and in the Army (including ground forces). Do you suppose that military institution is inclusive, equitable/equality, and diverse?
Besides being egotistical, self-centered, delusional, narcissistic, sadistic, masochistic, infantile, homicidal, suicidal and sometimes violent? I really don't have a clue.
So many assumptions happening all based on the trans identification. Heck, the story wouldn’t even exist without that.
But don’t say there’s prejudice at work. That would be rude. /s
What if I have? What if I haven’t? If you have a point, just make it.
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Nope, I did not ask about sex in my comment:
Your reply to the question I asked:
My train of thought is on the transperson needing to use the "facilities" in some similar manner as any girl or woman would:
1. To freshen up.
2. A safe space to 'purge' their bowels.
3. Chit-chat/talk with other females.
4 Whatever girls do when boys are not around.
My comment and reason for asking the question had absolutely nothing to d with transfemales "following" cis girls around for sex! Additionally, I did not read this article as stating if this 'man' as they referred to him is "intact" sexually male or not! It simply says he is transgendered (female).
(Sorry this took so long to get out: I was out nearly all day Wednesday, June 7th!)
I gave my thoughts as a woman on the subject. You have given your thoughts as a man.
I doubt that we will ever agree on the subject because as a woman I know that males are not females and I don't want to share my restrooms, locker rooms or sports with males.
It is the females who have the right to choose who shares their spaces.
The males, who want to live life pretending to be a female, are very unique and should have their own safe spaces and competitive sports.
You answered my question-with a question, in my opinion. If you did answer it , my apologies, because it may be 'lost' in the stack. I attempted to answer yours and. . . I now think my answer fell short (during a long drive and some time to reflect on it).
Let me try again now:
1. To be girl/woman means any combination of these: child birth, XX chromosomes, natural lubrication in her sexual organ, natural breasts from which she might breastfeed, a womb, meneses, - exclusively.
2. I don't know why a boy imagines he can 'manufacture' and manifest (medically here and now) any of the changes in bullet 1.
Thus, it should NOT be a boy's or man's 'endgame" who transitions into a medical science induced female (in some manner, shape, or fashion) to 'best' a girl or woman at being female. Because there really is no competition. Especially since cis-females are historically good at being who/what they are.
3. I would think a girl/woman has to think: 1. About her breasts, vagina, womb, hormone levels, ability to carry and deliver a properly birthed child through her birthing canal or by caesarean section. Likely several or many other concerns exclusively to being a girl/woman that a 'made' female does not encounter internally.
I'd like to think I did a better 'job' of answering your question/s this time around. Perhaps, now you might answer mind (HINT: I kind of clarified my number 1 recently with a recent comment about why a trans-female might enter a girls restroom (or go into girl's sports team) apart from wanting sex.)
So as a man, you have no idea how a female feels or thinks.
I would like the males, claiming that they are female, to explain what they feel makes them a female.
Isn't it obvious. As somebody here has been saying (not specifically you alone) -including the video you posted 4.5.23 Trans Women Pose NO THREAT to Women’s Sports - YouTube : If it is true that there can only be two sexes, then trans-females are partially equipped to be females. As they 'forfeit' their privilege to be proper males.
A facade works. A 'made' vagina works. "Made' breasts work for heterosexual men and women. So yes, I agree, it's a positive illusion. But, in order for it to work (and satisfy) it must be treated as real (even though in private it can be discovered). For example, my understanding is 'made' vagina's do not lubricate well or at all (lubricant must be applied) and similarly 'made vaginas' have to be kept stretched to an appropriate size using a type of dildo.
Good point! Really. I really don't know why some boys and men find trans-females exciting, other than they first are attracted to their appearances and personalities. It could be as the saying goes: There is somebody 'born' for everybody. Because I do know and have seen men who 'dedicate' themselves to men who wear drag. It has to be something about the look, shape, personality, and especially mannerisms of the queen or trans-female.
How do you feel or reason that a trans-female with bottom surgery should be treated when it comes to the girls/ladies restroom?
It's traditional thinking about categories. By the same token, a trans-female does not wish to explain and reexplain and reexplain to ad nauseam her 'condition' (and any foibles that happen) should a feminine boy with breasts, wide hips, and makeup come walking into a male locker-room, male shower, or is forced to compete with males only. You can imagine the stares, wagging tongues, rumors, and those invisible "question marks" that will undoubtedly pop up over the heads of many in the respective audiences!
That is your choice. It does mean that were I to follow your lead, I would REJECT trans-males in male sports (without giving them a proper chance to work through several generations of the hard issues facing them). That is not inclusion. It is not diversity. It is not equality. I am forced to state that it would present me as narrow-minded. And not as someone who respects our differences enough to at least try to bring us together. Especially, when I know there are people who do not wish science 'well' and/or do not respect the sciences. (I don't wish to be a part of any 'science denier' grouping.)
To be clear, that 'last' sentence is not directed at you. It is directed at those who exploit these difficult complex issues for their agenda's sake and to exploit those they love to keep in abeyance through otherizing them. That is, keeping 'those people' in suppression and secondary citizen status in their native land.
Of course it is. It's important to remember that trans people are not the only ones in the equation. Focusing solely on their situation is not diversity.
No, it presents you as having common sense and rationality.
Excluding transpeople from the "equation" is most definitely not diversity, inclusion, or equality. Any solution, besides trans-people of both sexes SQUATTING in the halls between two "open" restrooms that males and females have exited - and, NOT being able to compete as either a male or a female?
I don't think they should be excluded. I think they should play sports with the boys.
Besides being a traditionalist-Why? Feel free to take your time explaining, please.
Physics. Because they possess physical advantages that make it unfair for them to compete against women.
We created women's sports specifically to give them a place to compete because in most sports they are physically unable to ever get good enough to compete with the men. Allowing trans people to compete in that category defeats the entire purpose of having women's sports in the first place.
Explain the physics involved in a male taking female hormones and any accompanying surgeries which denature or limit the production of testosterone and compare that fe/male to an unaffected male. A 'weakened' male is not going to measure up against other males qualitatively or quantitatively in sports.
So what do you do with transfemales and transmales athletes if you can not pair them with their "cis" sex, but politically are uncomfortable pairing them with their newly acquired sex?
What do you do?
Did you mean, “Explain the biology…”?
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Biology has a absolute definition of what a human man and woman are. Those definition go against their wishes so they just ignore them.
. I'm sure you have the time since you are interceding. This should be easy for you: Define what a man is.
That comment is not clear to me.
a man is a non-birthing person. Elaborate on this, please.
A man is a human male. He has an X and Y chromosome pair. He has a scrotum that contains two male sex organs or testicles. He has a penis. He also has a prostate gland. How much more of a description do you need?
[deleted]
Let me deal with your vitriol first: I know what a woman is. I know what a transsexual is. I know what a man is.
Second: As for a man. . . he may have two testes or only one testicle due to birth or surgical removal. He may have no testicles due to surgical castration.
Third, he will have a prostate gland and women will have another set of glands similarly considered/recognized (somewhat).
Finally, when a man has "modifications" surgery to his "top and bottom" he has effectively changed the superficial and hormonal behaviors of his body to simulate and imitate the female body (similarly women can alter their bodies to simulate the male body) through medical science.
At this level of play only a fool would insist on calling that 'female' a man; and that 'man' a female, respectively. It would be taking the position of a hardcore, but sometimes adorable, brute from a rapidly vanishing world of medical and scientific progress.
Progress that is designed to help some people live and love even as other people have done so for thousands of generations. Conservatives don't have to like what other people do-when it goes against their beliefs or worldview, but you can't keep RUINING PEOPLE'S JOY for the sake of conservative passions.
From your comment I sincerely doubt that is a fact. I have yet to see you define what a man or a woman is. That's ok though, neither can you liberal brethren.
Superficially changing something does not change what it is only it's appearance and except for no longer having tested to produce testosterone, having bottom surgery does not change the amount of female hormones he produces. It only produces something that looks like a vagina but if left alone will close and be nonfunctional. It takes more than having long hair, wearing make up and having boobs to be a woman. Lower surgery of female to male is even less usable. It produces a "penis" that is too small to work sexually or one that can not get hard without a pump and has no sexual feelings. Also a man can not get pregnant and give birth to a baby. He doesn't have the correct parts. Women however do and that is who gets pregnant.
Tell me what civilizations have engaged in transgenderism.
Chinese, Greek, Indian, Egyption, and Roman to name a few. Almost every culture/civilization has engaged in transgenderism.
You know what? Your ridiculous insults are a waste of time and I don't know why they are allowed here! If you know what a man is then say it: Then, we will all know what YOU think/know about it other wise who the hell are you to bother with complaining about what others think about it?!
Of course medically induced sex change does not give doctors an ability to 'make' cis-girls/women out of cis-boys/men or boys/men out of girls.
I have said as much about why cis-gender. BTW, cis-gendered people are called such for OBVIOUS reasons. Time for you to say something constructive that helps and builds up people and discussion rather than the traditional - NEGATIVE BOB - talking points shit that is the conservative playbook.
Your "mission" if you care to continue commenting (to me anyway) is to not state the obvious, Captain, but to say something that helps people rather than satisfy some needy urge to be combative and meddlesome in the affairs of other people.
I am not the least bit interested in reading your comments that just argue for the sake of it.
Western civilization. Now you tell me a few of those civilizations that do not engage in transgenderism and do include conservatives like yourself!
Thanks, for that display of "Captain Obvious." You're so smart that I can't stand it. (Another superfluous waste of time point.) /s
And? That puts him in the category with 90+% of men who aren't taking those hormones or having those surgeries.
He still has muscular and skeletal advantages over women.
They need to compete in the open divisions. This is exceedingly simple and blatantly obvious to anyone with any experience in sports. It's only "political" because there are people who care more about their politics than the integrity of the sport in question or fairness in general.
Contrary to popular belief, what people call "men's" sports leagues have actually been open to women for decades. There is no rule against the Green Bay Packers signing a woman as their new quarterback. These are not "men's" leagues, they are "open leagues".
Women's sports were created because women are physically unable to compete with men in comparable situations. So we created special non-open leagues to allow them the space to compete fairly against each other. Men are not allowed in these leagues because they have an unfair physical advantage.
A 6-foot male is average or below average height for a competitive athlete. A 6-foot female has elite-level size. Hormones and gender surgery don't change that.
That depends does'nt it on the boy or man? And by the way, perhaps it is time girls and women 'bulk up' instead of playing to the social/cultural 'wants' of conservative male ideas of what a girl or woman 'should' APPEAR to be. (Think martial artists and Amazonian-tall, strong, and athletic.)
What is a time point?
Why do you think that girls and woman play to the cultural wants of conservative males?
Then let them use "open-leagues" or whatever. I don't give a shit. Apparently, you should be saying something to that effect rather than trying to argue along with your compadres along the lines that a man is a man and a woman is a woman-period and ne'er the two categories shall 'cross.' Because they are crossing.
Whatever fixes the issue and causes peace between people is what I am consent to. And finally, I don't have a dog in this fight. I am just stating these transpeople have a cause and people in sports and who love sports should come up with a 'do-able' solution rather than the traditional political culture war narrative!
(I am crunched for time right now - got a meeting coming up - so I hope this reads well if not I will have look into it later.)
Links.
I have several times it is you that seems to be reluctant to say what a man is.
Well you are wrong. Western civilization is much older than transgenderism and sexual reassignment surgery which was first done in 1952
I'm not interested in the discussion where anybody defends the concept of transitioning pre-pubescent boys.
Many women are doing exactly that. They are still women and they will still never be able to compete with men who undergo similar training.
Or.... maybe you might invest the intellectual effort to distinguish one person from another.
How dare you, now get into your progressive designated box.
Then forget it. I'm not wasting more time on digression.
Your comment is a non-sequitar.
Not that I am defending transsexual women in women sports, but if I was you I would be careful of saying "Never." Science is making dreams come true (everyday).
Maybe you will respect that (medical) science is creating hybrid men and women (every day) who (like the rest of us) have a NEED TO BELONG! Instead, of being a role-player in a cabal of traditionalists who pass judgement on the passions of people they can't, or choose to not, understand or dislike. Trans-females and trans-males are here now and they will have to be dealt with in a suitable and appropriate manner rather than just told to get a grip and fit in the two boxes you evidently "subscribe" for them.
what are hybrid men and woman?
Then we agree.
I'm really not sure why you can't take "yes" for an answer.
I think "hybrid" may be the best description I've heard.
I think, as you say, the two boxes may be the problem.
If a trans person simply says "I don't really conform to the stereotypes of either gender", that's a very different statement from "you must call me male or female despite the fact I'm not actually that".
Transsexuals have a somewhat unique problem: They do not have acceptance (many of them are harassed and killed and it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR individual or collective CHARACTER). Many culture warriors (people who look for issues to get people excited about - Gore Vidal) see political 'gold' in using other people's success stories and miseries to launch their careers, meddle in, and all around past unfavorable judgements.
Anyway, transsexuals do not want to be known by that which they have REJECTED (that is negative), instead they wish to be ACCEPTED as who/what they have become (that's positive). To do otherwise, is self-defeating at some point!
No one wants the trauma of being stigmatized. No one.
Finally, over time (or a move to a different city or state) after transitioning - a "fresh" start - many transitioned males and female can live in peace without a DISCLAIMER of their past lives trailing them around.
So you are not going to answer it. Not really surprised. When the only accurate answer you could possibly give destroys your whole argument all you can do is ignore it.
How so? Please enlighten me.
That is what I would like to know. I am not expect him to answer you.
Does that include what they have become at the expense of real naturally born women?
4.5.106 answered at 5.5.110. Let's move on. I am no longer interested in what you think a man is or vice-versa. This back and forth is tedious and brain-draining.
Life around you is changing. Conservatives have held people (diversity) down in this nation long enough. The time has come for "Archie Bunkerism" to die out!
Yeah "Archie," those days were Make America Great Again for men like you—only you! The rest of us-we did alright and made 'do.' Even enjoyed it, because it was not going to help to cry about it. But with medical science change is coming fast and furious now. . . .
Neither of the comments answered the question of what the definitions of a human man/male or woman/female are. All you do is dodge the question and make bogus claims that you answered. You then attempt to insult me. Unfortunately for you in order to insult me I must first value your opinion.
Just because something can be done does not mean it should be done. It also does not make it right.
Who is holding you down, CB?
Tedious and brain-draining. And since you don't value my remarks: Ditto.
Easy for you to 'say,' I guess. When is the last time a conservative wanted to be in a relationship with a person of the same sex? Once in a lifetime? Yesterday? Never?
Well arkpdx, we are not all blessed to be heterosexuals-which could make life so much easier. Instead, we get to be homosexual and put-down politically by conservatives for fun, profit, and policy.
And if you think for one second that transpersons make "it" look easy; you're in for a rude awakening. Because nothing about changing one's sexuality (and the politics don't help either) is easy. Transsexuals have no choice but to undergo the changes.
Do you have any idea what goes through the mind and consciousness of a person
It is conservative society that is the meanest, most vindictive, bunch of SOBs on this green Earth to interfere with other people who are simply trying to be happy in their own skin! But, we know how long minorities in this country have ordealed with conservative "thinkers" who use every avenue they can go down to manipulate the masses against us.
What do you know about right (for everyone)? What? You know nothing about what is right for everyone. Shucks! Conservatives have enough trouble adhering to their own set of moral standards: vis a vis Donald J. Trump, a traumatic and dangerous loser running around the nation on the loose!
The people who hated inclusion, equity/equality, and diversity are doing their best to hold society down or regress it. It is a constant struggle to keep conservative policies at bayl.
Who are these people?
Conservatives. Don't conservatives recognize their own strident 'handiwork' when they see it?
Really? How? Specifically. Which of your rights have conservatives denied you? How are they "holding you down"?
So you don't recognize conservative handiwork when you see it. A case of the left hand of a conservative doesn't know what its right hand is doing? (Wow.)
Be specific. What is it that keeps you down?
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Question: If this had been a boy, who identified as a white, straight heterosexual male, who assaulted a 17 year old girl because he didn't like her words, would that be acceptable?
I want to know because would that mean that ALL women are to blame for domestic assault for using words that make their boyfriends and husbands violent? If not, please explain so I can understand where the laws should be drawn and enforced to protect females from being physically assaulted by males.
Point of order... she was 15. HE was 17.
Which I believe makes the answer to your should-be-rhetorical question all the more obvious and damning.
he's under 18, he won't be doing any time. however she can go on the church speaking circuit and monetize her fame now. then she can get knocked up by a married youth minister... /s
I am surprised that if there was three or four of then in the bathroom that not one of them took a video...
It would be very interesting to learn this young man's history of interacting with his peers to date. I wonder how often he has resorted to violence when he did not get his way. How many schools has this young man attended?
Clearly, the 17 year old needs counseling on how to handle rejection in constructive ways. If he doesn't learn that society will not, and has no obligation to cater to his needs, wants or desires, his life is going to be miserable however long or short it is.
It would be interesting to see the young woman's history to date. How many schools she has been in, what trouble she has been in...
I mean if we are going to be objective right?
I agree.
It would be interesting to see how many people that the young woman has physically assaulted when they rejected her on any level. It could have happened, but the odds are against it.
No one likes rejection, but some males just can't handle it and resort to violence. Counseling might help - especially at very young ages. Some people just aren't very likable, but sometimes, they are born non-conforming to societal norms or question societal norms, and so on and so forth.
There are so very many reasons that interacting with other people can be difficult, but the first question I have is what is the reason the 17 year is interacting with girls who clearly have no interest in interacting with him? Why isn't he with his friends? According to the article, there is a history of confrontation between the 17 year old male and 15 year old female that even involved the police being called and 17 year old male being searched for a weapon. It is possible that the school should have put boundaries in place where these two people did not interact for any reason unless there was an adult present. Hopefully, the court case will shed some light on what was ignored and shouldn't have been.
I really don't want to see anyone assaulted or harmed.
That they had a history brings a new light on it. So it had been an ongoing problem.
Imo usually cases with constant harassment goes both ways.
Now I wonder if they had tried to diffuse the situation at all or just ignored it.
Do we know there isn't one?
It would clear up a lot of things Imo. Though with it being minors we would probably never see it.
Sadly, school administrations seem to be either ill-equipped or too frightened of social repercussions to wade into students' personalities clashes in schools.
As a parent, I told my kids largely what I have shared here. People don't have to like you. Use your manners at all times and if situations are beyond what you can handle then tell me and I will try to resolve it with the appropriate people so no one gets hurt. My children weren't always diplomatic or faultless when I had to get involved. I held them accountable for their actions and decisions since before they began school because that is just how I am. I resemble the INTJ Mom all too well.
Normal Mom vs INTJ Mom - YouTube
Hahaha
That was funny.
But apt in my case.
My kids said the worst punishment they faced with me was explaining why they thought what they had done was a good idea in the first place.
I was rarely upset with them over anything. I just wanted to understand how their thought process worked so I could gauge whether I was giving them to much or too little responsibility for their age.
It seemed to work. We all survived.
Is that what you wanted when George Floyd was killed? I don't recall many people on the left asking about his past.
You all offered up his past on a silver platter.
You didn't answer the question . I did not but some did. But what about you ........so you could be objective like you stated in 5.2.4? Did you care about his past?
I don't think I ever even commented about him.
That is absolutely true. Unfortunately, the LGBTQ crowd has not figured that out or don't accept that and demand that everybody likes and caters to them.
Bullshit.
Viewing all LGBTQ into one cohesive group is illogical. People are individuals who should have rights as other individuals do.
Realistically, people are not equal in physical or mental abilities. If people had the same abilities, then everyone could just choose whether they wanted to be one of the millions of nuclear physicists, one of the millions of professional athletes, or one of the millions of Grammy award winners.
Children do not choose their genetics, the biases they were born with, or what crap their society indoctrinates them with.
The majority of sexual offenses against women, men and children are committed by heterosexual males, but our society protects the heterosexual sexual criminals and vilifies adult consensual homosexual relationships as being unnatural.
So in essence, the supposedly righteous leaders of US society are usually claiming that rape victims lie or they "asked" for it because heterosexual males are only satisfying their "natural" desires. I used to hear speeches like this from the pulpit when I regularly attended church services. "Good" women are never raped because they know their place. "Good" women are never beaten because they know their place.
Actually, when it comes to people accepting and demanding that other people like and cater to them, the religious adherents need to stay in their lane, also.
I am an equal opportunity offender when it comes to setting societal boundaries to protect people's rights to allow them to live their lives to the fullest and freest as possible. I detest control freaks and adults who act like spoiled children.
They are not the only ones that are seen as one cohesive group. Christians, conservatives and others have been accused of all being the same.
True. It is necessary to speak out as an individual when you don't agree with your tribe restricting the rights of others or imposing the tribe's dogma on people outside of the tribe. Even within the tribe there is often abuse that goes unchecked because the people within the tribe are either too fearful to speak out or are abusers themselves.
Sometimes it takes just one abuse victim to escape and speak out about the abuse within the tribe to open the floodgates to other victims to have the courage to speak out about their own abuse. Then people, who share the majority of the same beliefs, speak out that their tribe is not at all like the abusive tribe. This is not true. If their doctrine teaches that people are sinful creatures deserving of eternal torment but will be only saved because their creator sacrificed himself to save them from himself - well, that is just the beginning of the abuse that people will endure as long as they identify with a religion that teaches this doctrine. Because along with being taught they are as bad as any rapist, murderer, pedophile, they are taught they must forgive the vermin who torment them throughout their lives if they want to escape eternal torment in the next life. This is abuse. It protects the criminals and silences the victims in all too many cases.
If the doctrine is the same, if the practices are the same, if the goals are the same, where are the differences?
There is a good example of this in the news today.
This 17 year old is transgendered (implied above) and entered high school as such. It is not beyond the pale to think that some girls can be bullies (too). And as bullies can say the meanest, vilest, even vulgar things to . . . well, anybody they don't like and want to hurt/provoke.
I don't know what happened in this case, as the article does not bother to give fine details.
What is clear is the politics. . . which are looming large in this article's one-sided approach and in this online discussion.
I have on several occasions, personally, gotten into rather exasperating (going no-where/no value) arguments with a couple of family females. . . who once they learned my past way of living thought they could hurt me with it and their 'take' on it. I can't count the many times those two. . . women have started a fuss with me and tried to judge my man-hood by loud-talking and telling me to "Be a man!" -when all I have been in there presence is a man!
Of course, it is offensive, it is female verbal abuse, and I might have wanted to strike back physically against the abuse. But, I managed to regain my composure in each situation and even get back at them-verbally. But, I am not 17 years old anymore. . . age/seniority/experience helped me chill.
And there may be a medical reason like ADHD involved. I hadn't considered this until youtube just recommended a video that could help explain why some people act violently when rejected.
How to Deal With Rejection - YouTube
and I wound up watching 2 other short videos by this woman. The comments on all 3 videos show that children and adults need support structured support groups to help them gain confidence in themselves instead of looking for it in other people (especially other children) who are under no obligation to validate them even if they had the ability to do so. Some children are introverted and have little desire to socialize outside of very few people. Some children are extraverted and may only want superficial relationships with others. This is where the schools need more counselors to help the children who can't find other children with similar interests who want to socialize with them. The most beneficial thing would have been for the parents to have had a social group in place for the child when he/she was born so socialization would have been a normal part of their life before they ever entered school.
How Social Media Affects your Mental Health - YouTube
and
How To Heal From Childhood Bullying - YouTube
Found video with the mother and her lawyer that might explain the "ongoing" problem the boy had with her daughter and others.
Also, in this same link is a California girl speaking out against her former school's policy of allowing males in female spaces.
I will continue to look for any updates on this case that might answer a question or two.
I may be reading things wrong but am I actually seeing people say there may be justification for a 17 year old guy to beat a 15 year old girl in the girls room?
But "he" identifies as a "she" so to them, it is just another cat fight.........sad shit and what does it say about the state of our society? Tolerance is a fine line between accepted behaviour and bullshit behaviour.
The attack on biological females continues. Where the hell are the feminists?
One would think that after the Loudoun County School sexual assault this would be a no brainer to not allow male (regardless of they "identify") into female restrooms and locker rooms.
Perhaps the same occur in Oklahoma that occurred in Loudoun County Virginia:
Grand Jury Indicts Loudoun County School Officials Over Sex Assault Cases
More evidence that conservatives will 'flag' every opportunity to make an outrage against transgender people, while all time, being INCONSISTENT to talk about treating cases individually when it comes to themselves and problems. Any pretender can slap on a wig/skirt/heels and enter a public restroom without having to flash identification. Conservatives know this, but why miss an opportunity to EXPLOIT some 17 year old over his ineptness of the politics he played into?
Question: Why is there more hysteria over trans and gender-noncomforming being murdered than there is about biological women being murdered? Is it a political agenda, or is it just because biological males are more important than biological females in the US?
In 2020, compare the murders of 13 trans and gender-noncomforming people vs the murders of 3,573 women.
Why is anti-trans violence on the rise in America? | Berkeley News
This year is on track to be the deadliest on record in America , with 29 trans and gender-nonconforming people killed. At this time in 2020, which was a record-breaking year for such killings, 13 had been reported, according to the Human Rights Campaign .
and
Murder in the U.S.: victims by race/ethnicity and gender 2020 | Statista