Biden expected to face criticism but not be charged in classified document probe: report
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
President Biden and his longtime aides will likely face harsh criticism but be let off the hook and not face criminal charges over the retention of classified material dating back to the commander in chief’s time as a US senator from Delaware.
Special counsel Robert Hur’s team is crafting a report on its monthslong probe that is expected to be sharply critical of the 80-year-old president and his staff’s handling of sensitive materials, but isn’t expected to charge anyone over the matter, CNN and the Wall Street Journal reported Thursday.
The lengthy report could be released before the end of the year, and it is expected to go into significant detail about what Hur’s team uncovered over the course of their investigation. Hur, aware that his report will be scrutinized, has reportedly been scrupulous in conducting interviews with anyone who would have been near the classified material.
After the report is out, the Justice Department is likely to make Hur available to answer questions from congressional lawmakers, many of whom have cast doubt on Biden’s explanation of the chain of events that led to the discovery of more than a dozen classified documents.
The outcome is far from surprising, as the Justice Department has a longstanding policy against indicting a sitting president on the grounds that it would “undermine the capacity of the executive branch to perform its constitutionally assigned functions.”
Hur, a former Trump appointee, was named special counsel by Attorney General Merrick Garland Jan. 12 to investigate the Biden classified document matter.
Almost exactly two months earlier, Garland had tapped Jack Smith as special counsel to investigate former President Donald Trump’s hoarding of national security material at his Mar-a-Lago resort.
Smith’s team has since slapped 40 counts against the former president in that case.
Biden sat down for a voluntary interview with Hur on at least two occasions last month, the White House previously confirmed .
As Hur’s investigation into Biden winds down, House Republicans have already begun signaling plans to turn up the heat on the classified document scandal.
Earlier this week, House Oversight Committee Chairman James Comer (R-Ky.) subpoenaed ex-White House counsel Dana Remus for information about the matter.
Comer is leading a three-committee impeachment probe against Biden that has largely focused on the first family’s foreign business machinations.
Last month, Comer indicated that his Oversight Committee is looking the document situation and pointed to alleged gaps in the White House’s timeline of events .
In January, the White House confirmed that personal attorneys for Biden discovered classified material in his post-presidency office at Washington’s Penn Biden Center for Diplomacy and Global Engagement the previous November, days before the midterm elections.
CNN reported at the time that around 10 classified documents, some marked “top secret,” were found and related to the United Kingdom, Ukraine and Iran .
Other classified documents were recovered from Biden’s Wilmington, Del., home — where images from Hunter Biden’s abandoned laptop show a beaten up box of “Important Doc’s” and indicate Hunter had access to the family garage where documents were stored not far from where Biden’s 1967 Corvette Stingray was parked.
The White House did not immediately return a request for comment from The Post.
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Lemme get this straight - bumbling Joe has spent over 40 years in Congress/Fed payroll and was found with classified documents covering those 40 years - and they ain't gonna do shyte to him???
Oh yeah - Clinton had 317 classified documents on an unsecure/unauthorized server in her downstairs BATHROOM CLOSET - and - oops - nothing done.
Trump - oh yeah - HANG'M HANG'M HANG'M - gotta luv the existing DOJ two-facism.
And the lies told by Biden.
They did NOT notify the proper authorities when first learning of the possession of classified documents. They waited a long time, so now the question is WHY?
Precedent set.
And there's the Democrat / Left hypocrisy.
Who don't love liberal left winger double standards?
The only standards republiCONS and CONServatives have are double standards.
And before this is attacked by the right wing, we should point out that if Trump had immediately returned the documents when he left office or discovered them, or even when he was 1st requested to return them, he would most likely not be charged with anything. But his refusal to return them over and over and over again, combined with his actions to actually hide them and obstruct their return is the primary difference between him, Biden, Pence, and others who have been found with classified documents.
Biden didn't immediately return them, but it appears you are holding Trump and Biden to different standards.
shocking.
/s
... and you are claiming that both sets of circumstances are the same.
Either show me (quote me) doing that or your post is a LIE.
Biden didn't "immediately return them. Not by a long shot. But you keep pushing the lefts false narrative.
As soon as they were found by Biden's people, they were reported to the proper authorities. Compare that to Trump's actions.
that is a lie
Funny how the left keeps ignoring the FACT that Biden had classified documents from his 40 YEARS of government service - 40 FRIGGIN' YEARS - and they see no issue with that?????
Come on man! Bidens documents were in a locked garage overseen by his crack head son, of course they were perfectly safe.
.
You have a case of HBDS, Hunter Biden Derangement Syndrome.
I think you meant his son on crack
They were found in 2021. Not turned in until November 2022. Tell me another line of utter bullshit.
and they see no issue with that?????
And they expect to be taken seriously. Another shining example of their hypocrisy.
Where did you get that timeline?
See #3.
see @3.2
How are we supposed to believe anything coming from the Biden WH?
The Biden camp has been lying the whole time.
Lol. Yes, and every day he probably went to the garage, pulled them out of storage, and took them to the country club to show off to a bunch of rich losers.
His beloved son may have given the info to some of his Chinese, Russian, or Ukraine "business partners".
Let's ignore all the pictures and Trump's own admissions...right?
No one told him any different. He was never in politics and had no training on yeas and nays. And since they were packed up and moved where they were moved to, why wouldn't he think they were his to keep? You people think so damned black and white when trying to analyze gray, it is pathetic. And you wonder why, even though many here are not going to vote for him, that we, in your world, defend him. It isn't that we defend him. It is that you are so ingrained in the pre Trump status quo elitist GovCo bullshit (and miss it it seems), that anything out of YOUR norm is incomprehensible. That is your shame.
yeah, see how far that ignorance of the law defense gets you in any court...
I am not talking court of law. I, as well as everyone with a functioning brain, know that he fucked up thinking they were ALL his. I am talking about the court of public opinion right here on these very pages where it seems NO ONE has ever thought one thing and was shocked to find out they were full of shit. It's arrogant and pathetic.
Hmmmm - does the phrase "I don't recall", that was uttered 47 times by Ms Clinton, ring a bell??? While she was UNDER OATH?????? Ignorance???? BS - just being a Left winger and getting away with it.
Always the excuses for the former 'president' and the endless defense of the indefensible. Like you said, and may I paraphrase, being an ignorant fucking moron, is no defense.
What does Hillary have to do with this?
I thought this article was about President Biden?
You have CDS, Clinton Derangement Syndrome.
[Deleted]
Yep, George H.W. Bush in the Iran/Contra hearings. "I have no clear recollection of those events." Still a classic!
You mean like Hillary did? Oh wait! She didn't turn over any of them! She denied having any. They documents were only after experts were used to look at her server.
So we are supposed to believe that these documents were "discovered" in November 2022. Yet there is this:
He "immediately turned them in" my ass. The bastard LIED about them. And yet the democrats and the Bidenistas are silent.
The Bidenistas will be very slow recognizing that fact, if indeed they are capable of ever doing so.
I sincerely doubt they are.
As is often the case, there is no direct statement in your link that states that Biden's people discovered (actually knew of) classified documents in 2021. The closest it comes is that they moved boxes in 2021 that were later found to contain classified documents.
This is indeterminate. We do not have evidence that Biden knew of the classified documents until Nov, 2022 when he reported their discovery. He might have known prior to that, he might not have. At this point, we do not know.
What we do know, however, is that the Biden classified documents were made known by the Biden team. They volunteered the information, complied with the safe return of the documents and looked for other violations of the PRA. This is similar to what Pence did. Both men cooperated with the safe return of the documents.
That remains in stark contrast to Trump who, based on sound evidence, intentionally tried to keep classified documents by playing stalling games with authorities and even went so far to try to conceal them from authorities in the middle of the investigation. Biden and Pence violated the PRA. Trump violated the PRA and then engaged in criminal activities rather than cooperate with authorities. Big difference. This is why Trump has been indicted and the other two have not.
If it is later determined that Biden knew of the classified documents in 2021 and pretended that they were discovered in 2022, then that is clearly a wrongful, dishonest, inexcusable act in violation of the PRA. But because he cooperated in their safe return, he is not subject to the criminal charges raised against Trump.
So why wait until 2022 to notify the right people? They knew about them and held them for almost a year before turning them it. Does away with the whole "he did the right thing" narrative you all have been trying to push.
At this point you are all just making pathetic excuses. Couple this with what was mentioned in #1, and there is the left's normal hypocrisy as well.
Don't you know by now that WH attorneys are often involved in "moving boxes"?
Who would have thought WH attorneys would be moonlighting as movers.
If they knew that those boxes contained classified documents then they should have reported it immediately. I stated this in my post!
If they moved boxed but did not go through the contents and discover the classified documents then it is obvious why they did not report them — they would have not known that they were inside the boxes.
As I stated, this is indeterminate. We do not know what they knew.
As usual, you do not read what people write. I made no excuse for Biden. Indeed I stated this:
Pay attention to what people write.
The first thing you said that has been correct. WE don't know. But those investigating do. Yet you still try to play the "what if" game to generate excuses.
The only game at play is coming from you as you ignore what is written and simply declare "excuses".
It is pathetic, no way to ever have a civil discussion with someone who ignores what is written and just generates spin.
You mean like asking different variations of the same question? [deleted]
The same gullible folks who believe the WH notified authorities immediately. The same gullible folks who think Joe Biden and his family haven't profited from the sale of Joe Biden.
Why would Biden have classified documents in the first place?
He should have not had them.
How would I know why he had them?
Because our whole system for safeguarding secret documents SUCKS.
Hell, no one even knew the docs were missing for YEARS!
It would be interesting to find out if any of the docs in Biden's possession were related in any way to any of Hunter's businesses.
Is possessing classified documents outside of a secure facility a crime?
Well, sometimes.
Seems like it may depend on who it is.
No, it violates the PRA, but it is not a crime.
Attempting to obstruct authorities from securing return of said documents once discovered is a crime.
Trying to hide the documents from authorities is a crime.
Showing the content of said documents to unauthorized individuals is a crime.
Who has been charged with a crime for merely possessing classified documents outside of a secure facility?
Trump has not been charged with that.
I don't know, do you?
Has anyone here specifically stated that possessing classified material outside a secure facility is a crime? What post?
Weak strawman argument.
So where is the documentation that none of these classified documents that were in multiple location where not shown to unauthorized individuals?
Didn't Hunter have access to the documents in Joe's garage?
You saw the question. I answered it. You should not be confused at this point.
Learn what a strawman argument is.
Trump has not been charged with a crime for merely possessing classified documents.
That is a statement of fact. It is not an argument and certainly is not a 'strawman argument'.
You want a document that proves a negative??
Do you think the authorities should charge Biden with a crime of showing classified documents to unauthorized individuals because there is no proof that he did not do so?
[Deleted]
Have no idea if Biden showed anything to anyone but, these classified documents were in an unsecure location because of him. There is no log of who has viewed these classified documents. So to claim he has not broken a law is unknown.
[Deleted]
Nobody has claimed he has NOT broken a law. There simply is no evidence that he HAS broken a law.
Possessing classified documents violates the PRA, but the PRA does not carry criminal charges.
Criminal charges come if one attempts to obstruct the return of discovered classified documents or willingly shows the content of a classified document to an unauthorized individual.
There is no evidence that Biden obstructed or disclosed; there is indictable evidence that Trump did obstruct and disclose.
Things have changed. In my day it was certainly a crime.
It never was a crime, Ed. The PRA resulted from the Nixon era and was intended to impose authority over presidential records.
Hard to believe the lack of oversight regarding documents, isn't it?
Lackadaisical record keeping, I'm sure.
Title 18 U.S.C. 1924 says, “(a) Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be….”
Now that you cited code, make your point.
Focus on the word 'knowingly' and the phrases 'without authority' and 'with the intent to'.
Also, I was speaking of the Presidential Records Act as it applies to Trump, Biden and Pence. Merely having those documents is not criminal. Merely violating the PRA is not criminal. To be criminal, more factors must be in play. Only in the Trump case are those factors in play.
I would suggest that Biden did indeed intend to keep the records from his Senate days. Why else still have them all these YEARS later?
Also (from your link):
Well if you were an attorney, you would have to make a case showing intent. I doubt your case, thus far, would be very persuasive.
And if you can divine intent for Biden then surely you recognize intent by Trump since he stupidly first tried to claim that the documents were all declassified by him. This establishes knowledge and intent and thus wrongdoing. Do you acknowledge Trump's wrongdoing based on the evidence?
Simply that there is a federal offense punishable by up to 5 years imprisonment for knowingly taking classified documents to your home garage or private office.
1 and 3 are easy, 2, not so much. I’m sure his defense is sloppy record keeping, failure to review documents before taking them home, etc.
It is not a crime to merely have possession of classified documents in your home, garage or private office.
As I have stated all along.
I'm not, just a person with some common sense despite what the 'law' says.
As much as I admire your persistence in dragging Trump into this, I am not talking about him.
Do you acknowledge the article isn't about Trump?
Is the argument really so weak that now Joe didn't know he had them? Or didn't even know he moved them?
When discussing what is criminal or not, it is the law that matters ... not your 'common sense'.
The law is an ass.
I am sure Joe really meant to return the docs from his Senate days, it has just slipped his mind lo these many years.
You are not a supporter of the rule of law?
Yes, the knowingly might be hard to prove, it would somewhat depend on the process used to pick the files and where/how they were previously stored. If in a safe used on to store classified, then yes, it’s reasonable to conclude that whoever took them out, knew they were classified. If however, classified documents where intermingled with unclassified in boxes, then maybe it was unintentional.
[Deleted]
Show me how 3 is easy to prove.
I suspect that too; basically that the records were boxed up by staff and the boxes were stored away. So the classified documents were simply part of the moving out process. The failure then was not reviewing each document before it was stored.
Without evidence to reasonably establish knowledge and intent, there is no crime.
Soldiers and FBI analysts have recently received prison sentences for having classified at their home. Most lose their clearance at a minimum.
Show me the law where it is criminal to merely have classified documents at their home.
I would expect that the cases you cite in the abstract will have additional factors that trigger criminal code.
Yep, the either weren’t trained or the proper procedures weren’t enforced.
Perhaps Biden didn’t obey Obama’s Executive Order 13526 on Classified National Security Information.
I showed you the law. A garage doesn’t meet the requirements of Secure Storage for classified documents.
In the two 2023 case I mentioned, the two individuals pled guilty during plea bargaining.
Once a year I receive tested, training on the proper handling of classified material. Our seniors aren’t held accountable to the same standards as juniors ate.
Ultimately, the reason Biden (and Pence) are not charged but Trump is charged is because Trump's additional actions violated the law. Trump went beyond merely having possession of classified documents at Mar-a-Lago and that is what turned his situation criminal.
If Trump had cooperated in the return of the documents, his situation would be in the same category as that of Biden and Pence and he would have not been charged. Indeed, I doubt that this would have even become public information. NARA would have likely secured the documents in stealth with the public being none the wiser.
And I illustrated that mere possession is insufficient to break the law. I even quoted directly from your link @3.2.32
You acknowledged the other necessary factors beyond mere possession to make this criminal, so why write your post implying that possession alone is criminal??
I don’t disagree, but I know the little people in government are punishes for what the big people get away with.
Handling classified can be tedious and frequently things are over classified, but instead of changing the rules or classifying less, our decision makers operate on their and their offices conscience.
I never implied that. It’s fine if you want to minimize Biden and his office handling of classified material, I didn’t classify it or store or have anything too with writing the law or the Executive Orders.
I simply say that we put little people in prison and usually excuse the big people that can’t be bothered to know and/or enforce the rules that they approve for others.
Then what, precisely, are you implying?
I am not minimizing Biden's actions, I have been stating what the PRA states, what the law states, what Biden did, what Pence did and how that differs from what Trump did.
And I stated that the law you produced does not make mere possession criminal. That there are other factors.
I have stated ALL of this quite clearly multiple times now. The PRA, the law, the cases are what they are.
The idea that there is a difference between "little people" and "big people" is certainly true in reality, but that is a tangent. We were discussing Biden's classified documents and how that relates to the actions of Pence, Trump and how the PRA and the law apply.
That a federal law exists against story classified documents at one’s residence. I don’t understand why that confuses you.
I haven’t commented on the PRA.
Sorry, I thought the discussion was on the prediction that while Biden was expected to face criticism but not be charged for his mishandling of classified material.
[Deleted]
Is any discussion considered complete if no one talks about Trump?
Not here at NT.
This topic is about Biden's classified documents. That topic immediately invites the Trump comparison. The seed content itself brings up the Trump classified documents case.
Read the seed, get informed.
And perhaps a Hillary comparison.
I have read it.
[deleted]
LMAO!
I was referring to unauthorized possession by military personnel or civilian of any classified material. That was and I believe still is in fact a huge violation of the UCMJ for military personnel.
Where is that in 18 CFR §1924? When I read it I see:
Since you don't provide a link to your "information" we can only assume you've fabricated it.
That is a truly stupid assumption; I stated in my comment that I copied the information from Drinker's link. Go to Drinker's link and you will see it plain as day.
Now, read what you quoted:
The conditions are possession AND knowingly remove AND without authority AND intent to retain.
AND, not OR.
Are you thinking of 18 CFR §1924? If so, see @3.2.64 regarding the AND conditions.
And what does that have to do with what you stated not being in the CFR?
So you're contention is Biden didn't know he had the records, didn't know he had them and had no intent in having them? Now THAT is pretty fucking stupid.
You claim I made it up. I stated that this came from Drinker's link. What is confusing you here?
I have made no such contention. I have stated that to be a crime, it must be demonstrated with evidence that the individual in possession (whoever it is) must have knowingly removed the documents without authority with the intent to retain them.
There is no evidence supporting this for Biden and Pence, but plenty of evidence against Trump.
Calm down, and attempt to understand what is written.
Then why make excuses that contradict the CFR?
The CFR states it is. There are no "conditions" in the law. But here you are making excuses for all of it.
Biden took them, but didn't mean to.
Biden had them, but didn't know.
Biden took them deliberately but had no intention.
Wow, what else is there to know?
Just seems smarter to assume that if someone has something they aren't supposed to have and keeps it for years, the intention is to keep it.
But common sense doesn't get a spot here.
Amazing how much effort you put forth to be wrong.
The factors are stated clearly. The English lists these factors as ALL being required. Undeniable:
The factors are possession AND knowingly remove AND without authority AND intent to retain.
Breaking it down to an elementary level:
Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, ...
... shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both.
All of the bulleted factors are listed as required. Thus the law states: possession AND knowingly remove AND without authority AND intent to retain.
Forget about what you ~feel~ and what you wish; read the law objectively.
It must be established that Biden knew he had classified documents.
AND it must be established that Biden intended to keep the classified documents.
The factors are possession AND knowingly remove AND without authority AND intent to retain.
For Biden and Pence, the factor that has supporting evidence is possession, likely could evidence lack of authority too (unknown).
For Trump, all factors have very strong supporting evidence. The killer factors are knowingly and intent.
Oh, it never does.
So now we are to believe that Biden didn't know what he took. Sorry, I am not buying that brand of bullshit.
Since he still had some from his Senate days, I think it safe to assume he was keeping them for some reason.
Once again, I am not talking about Trump. Whatever he did, he did fully independent of anything another President did. Biden's actions are his, not Trump's, and muddying the waters is a weak argument.
We are now going to have to argue that possession for years shows intent because some won't acknowledge the facts.
If Biden didn't intend to keep them, why did he?
One would have to be exceedingly stupid to believe that Biden didn't know he had them.
Some have been in his possession since his time as a Senator. There's intent.
As I wrote before, the law is an ass.
WTF good is a law basically doing nothing?
Expecting us to suspend reality again by ignoring that he had some docs for YEARS.
Yes they are. Now if you could only comprehend how it applies to Biden and quit making pathetic excuses.
If Biden did not know he had them, that makes a good argument that he lacks the mental acuity to be President.
I wouldn't say it's doing nothing. It's being selectively applied. We have to remember that those making covering for Biden are the same ones that have pushed unfounded claims for the past 7 years.
No, you are again not reading what is written and just making shit up. What is required is evidence that shows Biden knew he had classified documents. This is how adjudication works; it does not matter what you ‘believe’. Your belief is irrelevant.
Your assumptions are also irrelevant. In a court of law, your assumptions mean nothing.
The seed makes the comparison to Trump. Trump is part of this discussion. Whining about this is pointless.
Of the three, only for Trump is their evidence of knowledge and intent. You are clearly trying to equate Biden’s actions with Trump and are failing at each turn. Trump has a serious legal problem because of his refusal to cooperate, attempt to hide, disclose contents, etc. Biden and Pence cooperated. If Trump had behaved similarly, he would not be facing criminal charges on the classified documents situation.
That is a complete and utter falsehood.
Hard to get past such a blatant lie, it taints the entire post.
Make your case. Provide evidence that would hold in a court of law that Biden knew he had classified documents and that he intended to retain same.
Your beliefs are irrelevant. The law needs persuasive evidence (which exists for Trump).
Make your case.
[deleted]
[deleted]
The law does not include a time factor.
What you believe is irrelevant; adjudication requires persuasive evidence.
Why wouldn't Biden know what he took and kept?
That is senseless drivel.
[deleted]
Sorry, I refuse to be so naive as to think that documents Biden kept for years were just never returned on "accident" because it isn't believable.
But it's their ONLY excuse. The problem is by acknowledging that he "didn't know" they also acknowledge he's not mentally fit for office. ANY office.
[deleted]
Just believe that Joe Biden didn't KNOW he took classified documents, believe Joe Biden "thought" he returned what he didn't know he took and kept.
Believe Joe Biden is a liar and incompetent, at least that's believable
You assume that Biden packed up the boxes himself or that he directed classified documents to be placed in boxes.
Your assumption is irrelevant.
Make an argument that would stand up in court. There is a sound argument for Trump. Make one now that would be sound for Biden and Pence.
What you believe is irrelevant.
Arguing something absolutely no one is disputing now?
Did anyone claim there was a time factor, or are you deflecting?
That is not how the law works.
To criminally charge Biden and Pence you must have persuasive evidence of knowledge and intent. That evidence exists for Trump but does not (as of yet) exist for Biden or for Pence.
You clearly are unable to make a legal argument that applies to Biden or Pence.
But what YOU believe isn't?
Lol
I responded to what you wrote.
It does not matter how long he had the documents (per the law).
No.
Are you truly unable to comprehend that I have been speaking about the law and how adjudication works?
I have not once in this thread expressed my personal beliefs about Biden or Pence.
[deleted]
I never made any argument about time, but keep pretending I did.
I responded to what you wrote.
It does not matter how long he had the documents (per the law).
And there it is, later than anticipated though.
Yes, you can repeat that a zillion times, but absolutely no one is arguing that.
No, that is what YOU assume I assume, but that is wrong.
If you are not referring to time (duration), then what did you mean when you spoke of people ignoring that Biden had docs for years?:
How did Biden know he had classified documents? Be specific.
My clearly missed point, perhaps deliberately, is that Biden kept the docs for years, If his intent was not to keep them, he should have returned them. Does that not make sense to you? Do you now or have you ever kept something you were supposed to return?
Well, admitting I am going way out on a limb here, perhaps erroneously I assumed an adult possessing classified materials, read them, would know he had them.
Did he think the Document Fairy returned them?
Is that specific enough, or did you catch my drift?
To have intent, he would have to first know that the had the classified documents. It does not matter if he had them for years or for hours. Either he knew he had them or not. That is the critical factor when it comes to the law.
Do you have persuasive evidence that would stand up in a court of law that Biden knew he had the documents?
If so, present the evidence. Many people would be very interested in this.
This evidence exists (substantially) for Trump, but thus far nobody has presented any evidence that Biden actually knew he had classified documents in his boxes.
Make your case.
Wow, your defense is that Biden never knew he took classified docs?
WTF did the old fool think the docs were?
Where on Earth do you get this nonsense? I am not making a defense. I am stating that the law requires evidence of knowledge and thus far there is no such evidence.
Deliver the evidence. It exists for Trump, but not for Biden or Pence.
If you cannot deliver evidence of knowledge and only have your belief, then there is no chance of bringing charges against Biden (or Pence).
Without evidence your argument is without merit.
If he didn't know, either he and/or his office didn't comply with Obama's Executive Order 13526- Classified National Security Information.
https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information#:~:text=This%20order%20prescribes%20a%20uniform,to%20defense%20against%20transnational%20terrorism.
Do you have evidence that he knew?
We are talking about criminal charges; we are talking about the law. It does not matter if he complied with an Executive Order or not. What matters, legally, is knowledge and intent.
So Biden is now incompetent. And you think its a good idea to keep him in his current position. A late admission is better than none I guess.
This discussion is not about competence, it is about the law.
You have failed on each turn to make a legal case against Biden. You have presented emotion and bias and have played pathetic games denying what the law actually states.
Bottom line, both Biden and Pence have no evidence showing they knew and and had intent to retain those documents. For Trump, there is substantial evidence and that is why he is in legal trouble.
[deleted]
Of course it matters, if he and his staff were in compliance, someone would know that there were classified documents at his house.
No it does not. What matters, legally, is what Biden knew and his intention to (knowingly) retain.
And if he were not in compliance they would not necessarily know.
So where is your evidence that Biden knew he had classified documents in storage and that he had an intent to retain them?
Without that crucial evidence, there is no case against Biden (or Pence) per the law.
Is "willing" part of the statute? I would say he was carless and reckless with classified documents. Had Trump had classified documents in say the lobby of Trump Tower, I would say the same for him.
Yes, if Trump or Biden or Pence had simply been careless and did not know they had classified documents and those documents were then read by unauthorized individuals, they would be responsible for careless handling of documents. I am not sure that this is a criminal act (would have to research) but it is definitely in violation of the PRA.
Trump, however, knowingly held the documents and, per the evidence, willfully disclosed the contents of at least one document to at least one unauthorized individual. If the evidence for this stands up to scrutiny in court, this is a felony violation.
Competence does go along with the discussion. If he's not competent enough to follow the law then why is he still in that position?
I quoted the law. You are the one giving pathetic excuse after another.
And, as I stated before, one would have to exceedingly stupid to believe that nonsense. But you keep on with yourself.
It requires annual training for anyone handling classified.
I didn’t conduct the investigation. I didn’t accuse Biden of knowing. Perhaps he had an incompetent staff wrt handling classified.
Other than personal notes, pictures, and family type stuff, I don't know why in the hell anyone would want to keep/take those seemingly endless records in the first place. Especially, like Biden and Pence, when they didn't even, supposedly, know they were even there? What possible importance could they have.
Again, none of this matters regarding criminal charges. If you can show that Biden knew he had classified documents and that he willfully intended to keep them, then that would enable criminal charges.
My guess is that there has been no oversight over the packing up of offices for our highest officials. I would not be surprised if aides pack up whatever is in the office into boxes and ship the boxes to the residence.
While this is entirely irresponsible and inexcusable, this could very well be how it works.
Could be the intent of use of those documents that some are vehemently claiming don't exist. Biden has been in obvious contact with China and a corrupt government in Ukraine. Just saying.
Handling classified material, per the cited Executive Order:
And there you have it. Boxes are packed, shipped to the residence(s) and stored. How can you blame the recipient for the contents and how they ended up in their possession? And I doubt, upon arrival, that the "senior official" takes an inventory. It's bullshit to think that anyone knows exactly what is in them upon receipt. In Trump's case, they were packed and sent to him without as much as a peep that there could be secretive shit in there, why would he not think that they belonged to him otherwise they wouldn't have shipped them to him. The whole thing stinks but by God, we got him this time.
The pretzel like twisting mind boggling
I’ve twisted nothing but I’m not surprised that you’re boggled.
How funny.
How can you ignore the above? These are the factors that distinguish the Trump case from the Biden and Pence cases!
You are leaving out that Trump even sued to keep "his documents", even going so far as to demand a "Special Master" to decide which classified documents he would be allowed to keep. Then Trump got the conservative Special Master he wanted, who determined Trump was full of shit...
There are plenty of details I have left out.
Does not matter. All of it is ignored anyway.
You keep mentioning the PRA, what governs the documents covered by the PRA, are those documents up for debate?
You could simply read the PRA and get a full understanding of it.
Overview:
Details:
For the most part, every document that was involved with the PotUS during his administration is subject to the PRA. There are exceptions for strictly personal items, but by default all documents are part of the presidency and are to be secured by NARA at the end of the term.
Classified documents (and declassified documents) are clearly part of the presidential records and are to be under the stewardship of NARA and not that of the former PotUS.
Then they damned well better change protocol for the process. NARA gets all of the documents, sorts through them and makes the determination what can and can't be kept, and then and only then do they get shipped to the home address(es)
Here we agree. Obviously our system is woefully broken. There should be no way for classified documents to leave without approval and their locations being tracked.
But dealing with the system as it is, it is not a crime to merely possess classified documents.
Under the UCMJ, a violation of 18. CFR 1924 by military members, DoD employees, and contractors is in fact considered a punishable crime by a general courts martial if said violation occurred on a military installation..
Are military members held to a higher standard than what is stated in the law?
Little government workers are held to a higher standard. DoJ tells you that they will go for 5 yrs in prison or more and $250,000 in fines plus your legal fees unless you plead guilty.
If it’s only a couple documents Secret or below that you were working on at home for a couple days, you might only get an Article 15.
Are "little government workers" held to a standard that goes beyond what the law states?
Did I state that they were? No, I did not. If you know anything about the UCMJ, you know that the military has it's own unique legal system that largely follows US legal precents, but they are sometimes applied differently.
No, but big government workers aren’t held to the same standards.
Trump is not in legal trouble for simply moving classified documents. He's in legal trouble for not giving it back when it was discovered missing, trying to hide it from the FBI and talking to civilians about it.
Well, why would he do any of that after every missing document was already declassified with his mind? Duh. That is literally one of his mental diarrhea defenses. What is the point of engaging in political discourse with anyone who thinks that is reasonable. Siding with that defense is just professional level trolling.
The right wants to "litigate" every single scrap of allegation that has ever been made against Trump. It is exhausting. Especially considering the mountains of evidence against him.
Then it will be so easy to get convictions, right?
Donald Trump is like the political version of Dennis the Menace, except not ever being well intentioned. Even looks like him a bit … an old, decrepit, saggy, smellier version anyways. He stirs up shit everywhere and makes everything worse for everyone. It’s a mystery to me how anyone finds that appealing.
He's a professional at shit stirring, lol. I love your descriptions of the turd, very good, again, lol.
Biden is such an idiot he didn't know he had classified documents, which absolves him magically of all responsibility!
Finally, something all can agree on.
'nuff said.
Pence then is an idiot by the same reasoning.
And Trump is an idiot for admitting that he knew he had classified documents. By admitting that, he enabled his possession to be a crime. Worse, his stonewalling and hiding of documents also became a crime.
Did Trump not know that willfully taking and intentionally retaining classified documents at Mar-a-Lago was against the law?
Did Trump not know that he cannot declassify documents by mere thought alone ... that a formal process of declassification must ensue which would officially record the documents as declassified?
Given you think Biden and Pence are idiots, do you not think Trump is an idiot?
Do you still not comprehend that I am talking specifically about Biden, while you deflect and derail?
I doubt anyone misses the fact that you continue to flee from my probative questions.
No one is fleeing.
I have stated quite clearly multiple times now that I am talking about Biden while you continue to deflect.
Do you comprehend that my posts have been about Biden?????
Is that code for deflecting or derailing away from the actual comment about Biden being responded to?
No, it is a very clear reference to on-topic questions that are designed to establish / recognize facts.
The facts are inconvenient, thus the questions are ignored.
Deflection, definitely.
I think you just won the most convoluted post of the week. You don't think his comment is worth responding to so you take the opportunity to try to make it about Trump instead of responding to the actual comment so you can establish / recognize the facts. And then talk about him ignoring your questions because the facts are inconvenient and not because he doesn't want to follow your deflection.
WOW.
Such competence!!!!!! Lets keep him as POTUS. What could go wrong?
I know!
It isn't at all crazy to think Joe Biden took classified documents and failed to return them promptly, even though some seem to think it is.
It is easy to see how Biden had classified documents and not return them promptly.
If he did not know they were in the boxes, he would not take action to return them.
Still boils down to knowledge and intent. Apparently nobody can find any evidence that Biden knew had classified documents in the storage boxes and intended to retain them. Without that, there is no criminal charge.
He (and Pence and Trump) violated the PRA, but that is not criminal.
So now that's not a problem.
There's that incompetence excuse again.
So either he's incompetent and didn't know he had them (and shouldn't be in office) or he knew he had them and there was some intent. Remember, this is a person being investigated for taking money from the likes of Ukraine and China.
It's criminal under 18 CFR. But we've already seen your excuses on that.
It's amazing that people will continue to argue that there's just no smoking gun here. Even Biden admitted that there was a classified document found in his personal library at his home in Maryland. It's not like the documents were accidently put into a box when he left office, it was also moved from a box into his personal library.
It's perfectly sane to think that's the right thing to do. Then shriek somebody else for doing it.
You're not supposed to remember that. It ruins the narrative that he didn't know they were there.
jeez, how can I explain this so ut is understood?
I am talking about Biden
not interested in deflections.
Not once did I suggest otherwise. Instead of imagining what people write, read what the write. If you are unclear about their words, ask honest questions to gain clarification.
You cannot seem to comprehend how the law works. It does not matter what would cause Biden (or Pence) to not know they had classified documents. Legally, what matters is evidence that shows knowledge and intent.
He either knew he had them or he did not know he had them. You continue to throw in irrelevant factors rather than simply fact the legal truths involved. Do you not care to understand the legal reasons why Trump was indicted and Biden and Pence were not?
I have explained this repeatedly. You are simply denying everything and sticking with a reality that you wish were true. Well it is not true. Your fantastic alternate reality does not change anything.
Prove that merely possessing classified documents is criminal.
You cannot do so.
How, exactly, does admitting that a document was found turn into a smoking gun?
Show me with honest, civil discourse exactly what law (other than the PRA) Biden (and Pence for that matter) broke by merely possessing classified documents.
Depends on who put it there and whether he had knowledge it was indeed there. If it was classified, only he or SS (I think) would have authorization to see it and place it there.........................
Yes!! It depends on whether or not he had knowledge and then depends on a willful intent to retain said documents.
Merely admitting that a document was found does not show knowledge that it was there or intent to retain it.
Now, after admitting it was there, any attempt to obstruct the safe return of the document becomes criminal.
Thanks for the interest and the edumacation on this topic.
We'll see what happens in the real world of politics and, believe it or not, not everybody's gonna like the results.
Thread closed.