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From the calamity of the Gaza war to a peaceful Middle East - opinion

  

Category:  News & Politics

By:  kavika  •  last year  •  43 comments

From the calamity of the Gaza war to a peaceful Middle East - opinion

The shocking Hamas attack on October 7 and the calamity in Gaza can be the best catalyst to push both sides toward a historical and genuine rapprochement that ends the conflict.


By   ELIAS ZANANIRI/THE MEDIA LINE DECEMBER 9, 2023 09:34

567650 A flare falls over Gaza, amid the ongoing conflict between Israel and the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas, as seen from southern Israel, December 7, 2023. (photo credit: ATHIT PERAWONGMETHA / REUTERS)

Wars can start for simple reasons. Take the “Fan Affair,” for example. On April 29, 1827, the French consul-general, Pierre Deval, was hit with a fan by Hussein Dey, the Dey of Algiers. This incident triggered a conflict in which France occupied Algeria in 1830 for 132 years, only leaving in 1962, when Algeria officially announced its independence.


For more stories from The Media Line go to   themedialine.org

If the French and the Algerians could make peace, so can Israelis and Palestinians. Conditions are more than ripe for both sides to end the Arab-Israeli conflict by moving toward a comprehensive peace settlement based on a two-state solution along the 1967 lines.

In November 1977, the late Egyptian president, Anwar Sadat, told Israel’s Knesset, “The October War should be the last war.” Allowing myself to dream, I expect countries around the world to merge their efforts and make the current Gaza war the region’s last war.


The shocking Hamas attack on October 7 for Israelis and the subsequent calamity that has hit the 2.2 million Palestinians in the   Gaza Strip   can be the best catalyst to push both sides toward a historical and genuine rapprochement that ends   the conflict   and leaves all the pain behind.

Jews living in the West Bank


While the US administration has long managed the   Israeli-Palestinian conflict,   it has never tried to move into a solution paradigm. For years, the US administration turned a blind eye to Israel’s breaches of the Oslo Accords. It watched as Israel continued its settlement activities and construction in the Occupied Territories or by took various unilateral measures on the ground that jeopardized any future chance of reaching a final status agreement with the Palestinians.

567664 zoom-image-icon.svg THE IDF operates in Gaza this week. Only after a clear victory over Hamas, will Israel be considered by Arab nations a worthy partner against Iran, says the writer. (credit: IDF SPOKESPERSON'S UNIT)

One element that has remained absent in all peace-making efforts is recognition of Israel’s total negligence of international law and the unlimited support it has received from Washington to continue its policies. Israel has always gotten away with its actions as long as the American “big brother” has been there to defend it.

Sixty days have already passed, and the war in the Gaza Strip seems far from over. Israel is deploying more ground troops all over the territory. At the same time, its airstrikes continue to target populated areas throughout the enclave, bringing the death toll among Palestinian civilians to over 20,000, with no less than 45,000 wounded.

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There are reports from Gaza that some 5,000 bodies are still under the rubble with no means or time to pull them out. Local estimates stated that more than 50% of the buildings in Gaza have been extensively damaged or fully leveled.Israel and Hamas are trapped in a war that shows no signs of ending soon. Tough US pressure to expedite the process of moving beyond war and into a political settlement is the only way to put an end to the vicious cycle of violence, wars, destruction, and death.

Palestinian Authority (PA) President Mahmoud Abbas has said clearly that he won’t return to Gaza on an Israeli tank, a euphemism for having his return backed by the Israeli army. The Palestinian leadership’s stance has not changed since Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip in its ruthless and bloody coup against the PA back in June 2007.Only a comprehensive settlement can bring the Gaza Strip back under Palestinian legitimacy, i.e., the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.

I was shocked to hear Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu say that after the war in Gaza ends, President Abbas cannot take over Gaza. I wonder what future Netanyahu envisages for postwar Gaza.

I also wonder if he will remain as Israel’s prime minister after the war. Any commission of inquiry will certainly send him home. The court where Netanyahu stands trial for corruption charges may even send him to jail before the commission finishes its inquiry into the events of October 7 and the failure of the political, intelligence, and military echelons to predict and contain the attack.

A comprehensive political settlement that safeguards the creation of an independent State of Palestine alongside Israel on the 1967 lines is the only chance for Israel to rid itself of the Gaza headache. It would also solve the complexities of merging between its status as an occupying power and a country that proclaims to be the Middle East’s only oasis of democracy.

Ending the Gaza war while incorporating an international political initiative to solve the Arab-Israeli conflict based on a two-state solution is the best all sides can get. True, subversive elements will exist on both sides. However, sane leaders in Israel and Palestine must maintain calm and quiet and sustain their peaceful ties for good.

There are those in Israel who still argue that despite leaving Gaza unilaterally in 2005, all they got in return were rockets and missiles fired on their towns from Gaza. This is their alibi for not moving one step out of the West Bank.

Let us be clear on this point: Israel unilaterally pulled out of Gaza without any political agreement with the PLO. An agreed two-state solution that answers Israel’s needs for peace and security and meets the national aspirations of the Palestinian people is the best guarantor of peace between the two sides.


Any hostile elements that try to disrupt the new peace reality must face an iron fist from the relevant security services.

As a Palestinian, I can say with 100% certainty that we will strictly stop any subversive element whose acts might provide Israel with an excuse to destroy a seven-decade-long dream finally coming true.

The pervasive rhetoric that Hamas and its spokesmen use in justifying the October 7 attack is no longer convincing. The euphoria that the Palestinians demonstrated immediately after the October 7 attack soon disappeared, replaced by nonstop images and videos of bodies and devastation throughout the Gaza Strip. Frankly, Israel’s ruthless airstrikes on Gaza changed Palestinians’ collective mood into hatred of Israel and discontent against Hamas.

The tough events that happened on October 7 will not disappear from Israel’s collective memory. Hamas was shocked at the magnitude of its “success” of storming Israel’s borders and taking over a few southern towns.

Hamas’ track record shows that it scored despite never expecting any success. This also happened in 2006, when it won the legislative elections in the Palestinian territories, and a year later when it hijacked and took control of the Gaza Strip.

Hamas's big mistake


At that time, Hamas’ then-political bureau head, Khaled Mashal, said that they had made a big mistake believing they could replace Fatah and build their own regime. Hamas soon discovered that this wasn’t the case at all.However, Hamas’ uncalculated steps or moves have only sown public discontent.

One middle-aged man from Gaza, who was among thousands of Palestinian workers in Israel to be transferred to the West Bank following the October 7 attacks, had many comments regarding Hamas, its local leader Yahya Sinwar, and its military spokesman, Abu Obaida.

“I don’t care about what Abu Obaida says. I don’t care about how many Israeli soldiers he killed or APCs he destroyed. I need to know what preparations Hamas made to provide shelter to innocent civilians. I want to know if Hamas prepared the hospitals, and stockpiled food and drinking water. You can’t go to war without providing minimal services in those fields.”

His words came a few days after Hamas political bureau member Mousa Abu Marzouk said in a televised interview that Hamas built underground tunnels in Gaza for its fighters and leaders. When asked about Palestinian civilians, he replied that civilians are the responsibility of the UNRWA.

This ruthless stance that ignores the safety of the Palestinian people has pushed the public’s wrath against Hamas to the highest level in years. As such, postwar Hamas will be different from prewar Hamas.

Elias Zananiri is a former journalist from east Jerusalem who has filled several senior positions in the PLO over the past two decades.


Related Tags Gaza Hamas The Media Line The October 7 Massacre

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LINK TO ARTICLE; https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-777187


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Kavika
Professor Principal
1  author  Kavika     last year
This incident triggered a conflict in which France occupied Algeria in 1830 for 132 years, only leaving in 1962, when Algeria officially announced its independence.

The Jerusalem Post makes it sound like Algeria declared independence and France left. In reality:

The war caused the deaths of between 400,000 and 1,500,000 Algerians, 25,600 French soldiers, and 6,000 Europeans. War crimes committed during the war included massacres of civilians, rape, and torture; the French destroyed over 8,000 villages and relocated over 2 million Algerians to concentration camps. Effectively started by members of the National Liberation Front (FLN) on 1 November 1954, during the Toussaint Rouge ("Red All Saints' Day"), the conflict led to serious political crises in France, causing the fall of the Fourth Republic (1946–58), to be replaced by the Fifth Republic with a strengthened presidency.

This is one of the great understatements of all time by the Jerusalem Post.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
1.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Kavika @1    last year

Agree, in college so many years ago, I watched the movie, The Battle of Algiers.  It profoundly affected me by the historical accuracy and its cynical, and cruel story.  Back then, I saw many analogies to our involvement in Vietnam.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.1.1  author  Kavika   replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.1    last year
Back then, I saw many analogies to our involvement in Vietnam.

Indeed, there were and there are many analogies to Israel and Hamas. If the French and Algerians can stop fighting perhaps, just so could the Palestinians. They would have to rid themselves of Hamas and PA and start anew.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1.1.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Kavika @1.1.1    last year

The history of the conflict doesn't really lend itself to a settlement. 

Timeline: How the Israeli-Palestinian Peace Process Fell Apart in the Three Decades After the 1993 Oslo Accord

LINK ->

I personally was witness to a bus bombing in Jerusalem, and I also witnessed the shambles of the Park Hotel reception room when I was in Netanya.  My son lived in Jerusalem for a year for part of his studies and every morning he would go down from his room to the cafe at the front of his building, except for one day he slept in, and was shaken out of his bed by a bomb that blew up that cafe.  God was with him that day. 

I wonder if anyone on NT who supports the Palestinians/Hamas happened to have any friends or relatives among the thousands of Americans who were killed on 9/11 or those of many nations who were tortured and/or killed and/or abducted by the Hamas attack of Oct 7, or were they perhaps joining the Palestinians and Gazans who passed out candy and celebrated on those days. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.1.3  author  Kavika   replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.1.2    last year
I wonder if anyone on NT who supports the Palestinians/Hamas happened to have any friends or relatives among the thousands of Americans who were killed on 9/11 or those of many nations who were tortured and/or killed and/or abducted by the Hamas attack of Oct 7, or were they perhaps joining the Palestinians and Gazans who passed out candy and celebrated on those days. 

I don't see anyone on NT supporting Hamas, Buzz although I have been accused of it by some on NT. As far as I know, it was mostly Saudis that were the terrorists in 9/11. There have been plenty of Americans killed and wounded by Hezbollah in Beirut, of that I have a deep personal knowledge.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1.1.4  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Kavika @1.1.3    last year

I know. You know I know. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.1.5  JohnRussell  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.1.2    last year
I wonder if anyone on NT who supports the Palestinians/Hamas

This is getting old Buzz. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1.1.6  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  JohnRussell @1.1.5    last year

So am I.  Surely the fact that you challenged my comment doesn't mean it has touched a nerve.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.1.7  JohnRussell  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.1.6    last year
Surely the fact that you challenged my comment doesn't mean it has touched a nerve.

No nerve, tired.  There are no Hamas supporters on NT. Knock it off. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1.1.8  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  JohnRussell @1.1.7    last year

Perhaps just those who support neither, or even those who support the protesters and demonstrators on the basis of "freedom of expression" but if any NT member DID support Hamas they sure as hell wouldn't show their face here these days.

Did you note that the President of Penn U resigned because of the backlash from her neutral or "freedom of expression" reply to a Congressional committee about antisemitism on campus?

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2  JBB    last year

"Let There Be Peace On Earth" - JBB

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2.1  author  Kavika   replied to  JBB @2    last year

That would be great, JBB.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1.1  JBB  replied to  Kavika @2.1    last year

Was this such a controversial proposal in Christmases past? 

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Masters Guide
2.2  Right Down the Center  replied to  JBB @2    last year

409197450_2759047730927472_746530851589887129_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=iCUd0GgyaZkAX_HWO3i&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-2.xx&oh=00_AfCEtndVCQf90Lc5wxqhhR9nSIc6JdNl4RGMfu54YNtSKA&oe=657B97D6

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
3  Ronin2    last year
Only a comprehensive settlement can bring the Gaza Strip back under Palestinian legitimacy, i.e., the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.

I was shocked to hear Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu say that after the war in Gaza ends, President Abbas cannot take over Gaza. I wonder what future Netanyahu envisages for postwar Gaza.

Ending the Gaza war while incorporating an international political initiative to solve the Arab-Israeli conflict based on a two-state solution is the best all sides can get. True, subversive elements will exist on both sides. However, sane leaders in Israel and Palestine must maintain calm and quiet and sustain their peaceful ties for good.

The PLO is the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people? The same PLO (now the PA) that is on the take from both Israel and the US? The same PLO that does nothing to protect their people from the IDF unwarranted raids and killings; and settlers killing and chasing Palestinians out of their homes in the West Bank? The same PLO that is so afraid of losing Israeli and US funding that it is willing to put down Palestinians protests, and make their political opponents disappear? The same PLO that will not hold free and open elections for fear they will be voted out? That PLO? I am friends with a family that still has relatives in both the West Bank and Gaza. They detest Abbas (the PA by extension), Hamas, and Hezbollah. They are all simply different ends one large corrupt entity. One side taking money from Israel/US; and the other taking money from Iran. None of them give a shit about their people.

Bibi detests Abbas- not that Abbas has given him any reason- he is the perfect puppet. Bibi hates all Palestinians and wouldn't want the PA to be seen as any type of unifying force. He sabotaged them with Hamas the first time around. Gaza will get a puppet Israeli government; with large buffer zones; and a strong Israeli military presence. The blockade will not end. Bibi will let nature take it's course in a place that is far too overcrowded, doesn't have adequate supplies, housing, or fuel. Famine, disease, and the elements will do the rest. The Gazans will be too busy fighting for their own survival to cause trouble for anyone but the puppet government.

As for an international political initiative, so long as the US protects Israel in the UN- and sends billions every year in financial and military aid- there is no reason for the Israelis to change anything.

There are no sane leaders on either side. Anyone thinking that just removing Bibi will bring in a more moderate peace loving Israeli government is delusional. There is a reason Bibi and the hard line political factions keep winning elections. Bibi isn't even the most far right radical in the Israeli government. In case anyone has missed it Israelis are pissed that the Hamas attacked was allowed to succeed. They are pissed that Hamas is still holding Israeli hostages. They want Bibi and those responsible in government for allowing this to happen to pay. They are not calling for an end to the violence in Gaza. They are not calling for an end to the IDF and settler killings of Palestinians in the West Bank. They sure as hell aren't calling for a Palestinian state. I fully expect Bibi and a few other hard liner heads to roll come election time- their own parties will see to that. But an end to hard line Zionist expansionistic rule? Not a chance. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3.1  author  Kavika   replied to  Ronin2 @3    last year

IMO, none of them are worth a shit, that includes Netanyahu, Abbas and whoever is head of Hamas at the moment, the old guard has to go for anything to work.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
4  charger 383    last year

Palestinians have had many chances for peace and not taken advantage of them, they keep breaking whatever peace other countries try to help them get.  They have had too many chances so whatever happens to them they deserve and brought on themselves.  

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
4.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  charger 383 @4    last year

Hamas has broken every cease fire they've ever agreed to so one would have to be an idiot to think that they wouldn't again, which is why Israel sees no reason to stop until every last fucking Hamas militant and member and supporter is sent up to deflower his 72 virgins.   Besides, the Palestinians have never agreed to a lasting peace whenever it was offered to them, and why would they?  If they did they would have to give up being supported and spoonfed by UNRWA to the nth generation of "refugees" forever at the expense of decent taxpayers around the world. 

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
4.1.1  charger 383  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @4.1    last year

you got that right!

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
4.1.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  charger 383 @4.1.1    last year

Do I get a score of 20?

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
4.1.3  charger 383  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @4.1.2    last year

20 and extra credit

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5  Krishna    last year

A lot of this article really makes no sense at all.

Where to start? How about this statement:

The Shocking Hamas Attack On October 7 And The Calamity In Gaza Can Be The Best Catalyst To Push Both Sides Toward A Historical And Genuine Rapprochement That Ends The Conflict.

Since the re-creation of israel in 1948, there have been numerous horrendous terror attacks on Israelis by Palestinian terrorists. And none of them have been a catalyst towards "rapproachment"-- in fact quite the opposite.

And there have been several wars between Israel and the Arabs-- none have made the Arabs more willing to make peace. 

When the modern state of Israel came into being-- every one of the 4 countries bordering Israel attacked them i(plus Iraq and also some help from Pakistan!) As a result of that war, both Lebanon and Syria have refused to make peace-- in fact both are still officially at war with Israel.

And Egypt would still be except that Israel conquered and occupied the Sinai-- and refused to withdrew until Egypt made peace. 

The recurring wars between Israel and the Arabs have not been a  "Catalyst To Push Both Sides Toward A Historical And Genuine Rapprochement That Ends The Conflict." They have only increased the hatreds (on both sides).

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @5    last year

A lot of this article really makes no sense at all.

And then there's the author's statement that:

If the French and the Algerians could make peace, so can Israelis and Palestinians.

Followed by:

This incident triggered a conflict in which France occupied Algeria in 1830 for 132 years,

So the author is optimistic (and it may take only 132 years!)

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.1.1  author  Kavika   replied to  Krishna @5.1    last year
This incident triggered a conflict in which France occupied Algeria in 1830 for 132 years, So the author is optimistic (and it may take only 132 years!)

The French colonized Algeria for all but 6 of the 132 years and those six years were some of the bloodiest and most horrific in history, yet they managed to make peace.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.2  author  Kavika   replied to  Krishna @5    last year
And there have been several wars between Israel and the Arabs-- none have made the Arabs more willing to make peace. 

Jordan and Egypt have, Krish and the Abraham Accords were another step in that direction.

The recurring wars between Israel and the Arabs have not been a  "Catalyst To Push Both Sides Toward A Historical And Genuine Rapprochement That Ends The Conflict." They have only increased the hatreds (on both sides).

So what do we have, Krish? The hated increasing on both sides so there would be no rapprochement to end the war. I guess the answer is to let the war go on and on and have a pause then another war and another. It's a never-ending cycle of terrorism then vengence, terrorism, and vengence. A true no-win situation.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
6  Krishna    last year

Only a comprehensive settlement can bring the Gaza Strip back under Palestinian legitimacy, i.e., the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.

This guy is really uninformed. The PLO is definitely not the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people

After Israel ended its occupation of Gaza and totally withdrew, the Palis had an election. Hamas won, PLO lost. 

So why does the author thinks that the PLO is the sole legitimate representative-- becuase the voters chose their opponents?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @6    last year

Thank you, Krishna, for setting the matter straight.  Wishful thinking doesn't make peace.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
6.1.1  author  Kavika   replied to  Buzz of the Orient @6.1    last year
Thank you, Krishna, for setting the matter straight.  Wishful thinking doesn't make peace.

Neither does killing your way to peace.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.1.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Kavika @6.1.1    last year

Kavika, it's not going to stop.  It is ingrained, it is in the religion of the Muslims, and Hamas are fundamentalists, who cannot be trusted even though they may have changed their constitution cannot and will not change their faith.

The Koran:

The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (the Boxthorn tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews. 

Hamas and Islamic Jihad have broken every cease fire there was over the years and it should be understood that Israel has finally learned that it will NEVER stop and so that is why the only reason Israel has been a party to a cease fire now is to get release of the hostages.  Israel will not stop this war until, as I've said more than once already, every Hamas militant and every Hamas administrator and every Hamas supporter in Gaza and the West Bank has been sent to deflower and enjoy his 72 virgins.  

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
6.1.3  author  Kavika   replied to  Buzz of the Orient @6.1.2    last year

Seems that the war will be endless then, Buzz. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.1.4  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Kavika @6.1.3    last year

Not necessarily, Kavika.  On the news this morning it was announced that Israel is succeeding in killing more Hamas militants and Hamas militants are starting to surrender - that is a sign. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
6.1.5  Krishna  replied to  Kavika @6.1.1    last year
Neither does killing your way to peace.

WTF???

It worked against Germany's Nazis in WWII. It worked with Imperial Japan.

(If the Allies tried to stop both those groups via "negotiations" t hey might have conquered the world!

Whne faced with opponents that are genocidal fanatics who want to conquers the world, strong measures are required-- those types of people are no longer "reasonable" and "fair".

And Hamas? I still amazed at how many people aren't aware of the depths of they exibited on Oct 7th.  

For those who can't bear to watch the horrific videos recordered by Hamas terrorists, here is what they did:

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
6.2  author  Kavika   replied to  Krishna @6    last year

I agree about the PLO, and I stated for this to have a chance at working the leadership of all three countries needs to be replaced. And the Palestinians have to reject Hamas and the PA (PLO) as they leaders.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
6.2.1  Krishna  replied to  Kavika @6.2    last year
And the Palestinians have to reject Hamas

Remember, Hamas is not an organization that respects democratic principle!

Just how do you propose we can get Hamas to allow the people to take away Hamas power?

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Senior Quiet
7  Colour Me Free    last year
I was shocked to hear Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu say that after the war in Gaza ends, President Abbas cannot take over Gaza. I wonder what future Netanyahu envisages for postwar Gaza.

I was not surprised to hear Netanyahu say that President Abbas cannot return.  I have read articles regarding the corrupt and discredited PA President Abbas.  Netanyahu says that Israel would provide security to Gaza but not govern. If Hamas's power structure in Gaza is not destroyed .. then this exercise in guessing the future of Gaza is a moot point.

Either way .. the United States needs to stay out of the establishing of governance in Palestine - 'our' track report of picking winner to govern in other countries is not exactly stellar.

I also wonder if he will remain as Israel’s prime minister after the war. Any commission of inquiry will certainly send him home. The court where Netanyahu stands trial for corruption charges may even send him to jail before the commission finishes its inquiry into the events of October 7 and the failure of the political, intelligence, and military echelons to predict and contain the attack.

Ummm, there is quite a bit going on in these two sentences.

It seems unlikely that Netanyahu will the remain PM .. unless he suddenly becomes wildly popular.  Netanyahu should prob step down without resistance.  I will ignore the 'lock him up' part ... So now there is the knowledge that planning paperwork of attack was available up to a year earlier than the attack and it was ignored - I cannot fault intelligence on that, too hard to predict an 'imminent' attack a year later if they had taken it seriously.  I wonder more about how there no chatter intercepted or activity noticed, it seems there would have had to been some in advance of the attack .. All that said shit does happen, look at 9/11 .. even with advanced knowledge - without the infrastructure that is in place now, would those pilots have been prevented from taking off?

A comprehensive political settlement that safeguards the creation of an independent State of Palestine alongside Israel on the 1967 lines is the only chance for Israel to rid itself of the Gaza headache. It would also solve the complexities of merging between its status as an occupying power and a country that proclaims to be the Middle East’s only oasis of democracy.

Palestine reject Resolution 242 .. I do believe that Israel, Jordan, Egypt and Syria were for it - I am not saying that Israel has not been in the wrong regarding the treatment of Palestinians, because they definitely have been... yet to believe at this point that going back to 'once upon a time again' is going to solve the complexity of Israel and the Palestinian relationship is probably fantasy .. 

Israel is an oasis of democracy in the ME .. democracy is a form of government where the rule of the majority wins .. democracy does not actually equal god like virtue.

Peace...

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
7.1  Krishna  replied to  Colour Me Free @7    last year
Either way .. the United States needs to stay out of the establishing of governance in Palestine - 'our' track report of picking winner to govern in other countries is not exactly stellar.

Agreed!

Yet here we  are here on NT debating how to convince Hamas to listen to the will of the people they rule. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
8  author  Kavika     last year
Either way .. the United States needs to stay out of the establishing of governance in Palestine - 'our' track report of picking winner to govern in other countries is not exactly stellar.

We should but we won't.

t seems unlikely that Netanyahu will the remain PM .. unless he suddenly becomes wildly popular.  Netanyahu should prob step down without resistance.  I will ignore the 'lock him up' part ... So now there is the knowledge that planning paperwork of attack was available up to a year earlier than the attack and it was ignored - I cannot fault intelligence on that, too hard to predict an 'imminent' attack a year later if they had taken it seriously.  I wonder more about how there no chatter intercepted or activity noticed, it seems there would have had to been some in advance of the attack .. All that said shit does happen, look at 9/11 .. even with advanced knowledge - without the infrastructure that is in place now, would those pilots have been prevented from taking off?

I think that Netanyahu will be voted out. The report a year earlier is only part of the problem there were reports of intelligence units that stated they were watching Hamas train for an invasion of Israel and they too were ignored, there is no way of that mess.

Palestine reject Resolution 242 .. I do believe that Israel, Jordan, Egypt and Syria were for it - I am not saying that Israel has not been in the wrong regarding the treatment of Palestinians, because they definitely have been... yet to believe at this point that going back to 'once upon a time again' is going to solve the complexity of Israel and the Palestinian relationship is probably fantasy .. 

Indeed it is a complex problem with many endless trails to follow and others that are there but not visable to most observers.

Waanakiwin

(peace)

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Senior Quiet
8.1  Colour Me Free  replied to  Kavika @8    last year
We should but we won't.

Of course not, far too much fun to interfere with the governments and elections of other countries - after all the US knows best .. 

The report a year earlier is only part of the problem there were reports of intelligence units that stated they were watching Hamas train for an invasion of Israel and they too were ignored, there is no way of that mess.

HA! I knew that activity had to have been noticed. : )   I do recall now that you have reminded me of this that I did read an article, but I do not think more than two - has this been hushed a bit, or have I been missing the coverage?

 I did not get much reading done this weekend .. I am going to seek out more coverage of the 'noticed activity' ... part of what was ignored I can understand, but how could visible evidence of training be ignored, makes no sense! 

Indeed it is a complex problem with many endless trails to follow and others that are there but not visable to most observers.

Tis the nature of the beast .. ten peoples can look at the same painting and yet several will describe something different.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
8.1.1  author  Kavika   replied to  Colour Me Free @8.1    last year
or have I been missing the coverage?

No, it seems to have disappeared from the news conveniently for some.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
8.2  Krishna  replied to  Kavika @8    last year
I think that Netanyahu will be voted out. The report a year earlier is only part of the problem there were reports of intelligence units that stated they were watching Hamas train for an invasion of Israel and they too were ignored, there is no way of that mess.

I think he will be...eventually.

For peace to happen, two things must happen-- both Hamas and Israel must have reasonable leaders. I believe that at this point the majoirity of Israelis would get him out of power--- but its hard to get rid of the leader when a country is at war.

And Gaza? Whether the majority of people there want to stick with Hamas or get new rulers is irrelevant-- because if if the gazans would overwhelmingly want new rulers it doesn't matter-- they are not a democracy!

In order to have peace, both sides must want it-- and both must be able to make it happen. And Hamas won't let Gazans do that.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
8.2.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Krishna @8.2    last year

Agree but it’s not just Hamas, the PA is an old, ineffective, corrupt institution that hasn’t cared enough about its people to try to effect change.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
8.2.2  author  Kavika   replied to  Krishna @8.2    last year
For peace to happen, two things must happen-- both Hamas and Israel must have reasonable leaders. I believe that at this point the majoirity of Israelis would get him out of power--- but its hard to get rid of the leader when a country is at war.

England got rid of Chamberlin and elected Churchill and that sure worked out, Krish.

For peace to happen, two things must happen-- both Hamas and Israel must have reasonable leaders. I believe that at this point the majoirity of Israelis would get him out of power--- but its hard to get rid of the leader when a country is at war.

As I've said along Gaza, West Bank and Israel must get rid of the current leadership. I don't believe that Palestinians want Abbas or the PA and in Gaza Hamas must be thrown out along with Netanyahu in Israel for any of this to work. How Gaza does it I don't know but nothing will change without change.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
8.2.3  author  Kavika   replied to  Drinker of the Wry @8.2.1    last year

Exactly.

 
 

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