Israel is losing the war against Hamas – but Netanyahu and his government will never admit it
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Until recently the war narrative on Gaza has been very largely controlled by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and the country’s ministry of defence. Israel’s international reputation may have plummeted with the killing of more than 20,000 Palestinians, the wounding of more than 50,000 and the destruction of much of Gaza, but the IDF could still sell a plausible narrative of a severely weakened Hamas, even claiming that the war in northern Gaza was largely complete, and success in southern Gaza would follow before too long.
The narrative was helped by severe difficulties for the few journalists still operating in Gaza, including the risk to their personal safety, while the international press corps was stuck in Jerusalem and dependent on IDF sources for much of their information.
That changed as a different picture began to emerge. First there was a lack ofevidence to supportthe IDF’s claim of a Hamas headquarters under al-Shifa hospital, then the IDF could not identify the location of the Israeli hostages, despite having some of the world’s most advanced intelligence.
Very recently there have been two further incidents. On 12 December, there was a skilful triple ambush staged by Hamas paramilitaries in a part of Gaza supposedly controlled by Israeli forces. An IDF unit was ambushed and took casualties. Further troops were sent to aid that unit, and they were then ambushed, as were reinforcements.
Ten IDF soldiers were reported killed and other seriously wounded, but it was their seniority that counted,includingas it did a colonel and three majors from the elite Golani Brigade. That Hamas, supposedly decimated and with thousands of troops already killed, could mount such an operation anywhere in Gaza, let alone a district reportedly already under IDF control, should raise doubts about the idea that Israel is making substantial progress in the war.
A further indication came a few days later, when three Israeli hostages succeeded in getting away from their captors,only to be killedby IDF soldiers, even though shirtless and carrying a white flag. What has since made that worse, and is causing considerable anger in Israel, is that calls from the hostages werepicked upby an audio-equipped IDF search-dog five days before they were killed.
There are other, wider indications of the IDF’s problems. Official casualty figures have shownmore than 460military personnel killed in Gaza, Israel and the occupied West Bank and about 1,900 wounded. But other sources suggest far greater numbers of wounded. Ten days ago, Israel’s leading daily, Yedioth Ahronoth, published information obtained from the ministry of defence’s rehabilitation department. This put casualty numbers atmore than 5,000, with 58% of them classed as serious and more than 2,000 officially recognised as disabled. There have also been a number of friendly fire casualties, with the Times of Israel reporting 20 out of 105 deaths due to such fire or accidents during fighting.
Overall, the IDF is still following thewell-rehearsedDahiyadoctrine of massive force in responding to irregular war, causing extensive social and economic damage, undermining the will of the insurgents to fight while deterring future threats to Israel’s security. But it is going badly wrong. Criticism is coming from unexpected quarters,including fromthe former UK defence minister, Ben Wallace, who has warned of an impact lasting 50 years. Even the Biden administration is becoming thoroughly uneasy at what is unfolding, yet Benjamin Netanyahu and the war cabinet are determined to continue for as long as they can.
It is worth recognising why. The 7 October attacks and the brutality involved struck Israel’s assumption of security to the core, which means that the great majority of Israeli Jews have so far continued to support Netanyahu’s response. Even that, though, is fraying and is made worse by the killing of the three hostages by IDF troops.
An effect of all this is that the IDF commanders are coming under huge pressure to succeed, and will go as far as the war cabinet will allow. Many of those commanders are highly intelligent if inevitably single-minded people, and will now know that for all Netanyahu’s rhetoric, Hamas, or at least Hamas’s ideas, cannot be defeated by military force. They also know that while talks arestalling, pressure from the families of hostages may soon result in another humanitarian pause. Therefore, their aim will be to damage Hamas as much as they can, as quickly as they can, while they can, whatever the cost to Palestinians. For evidence of this approach, witness this week’s intense air raids.
What makes that possible is Netanyahu’s dependence on an extremist minority of religious fundamentalists and trenchant Zionists in his government. They would not have anything like the wider support in Israel were it not for the tragedy of 7 October, yet they are doing more and more harm to Israel’s long-term security. Not only does Israel risk becoming a pariah state, even among its allies, but it will also fuel a generation of radical opposition from a reconstituted Hamas or its inevitable successor.
It needs saving from itself, but that will depend, more than anything, on Joe Biden and the people around him. Perhaps pushed on by the rapidly changing public mood in western Europe, they must recognise their role in bringing an immediate end to this conflict.
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Paul Rogers is emeritus professor of peace studies at Bradford University and an honorary fellow at the Joint Service Command and Staff College
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A win to a terrorist organization is the ability to survive against superior firepower.
That isn't a win.
A win would be Hamas wracking up continuous victories and driving the IDF out of Gaza. Which would still be a pyric victory since Israel controls the air and sea and would bombard Gaza to the point nothing would be alive.
This is another embarrassment for Bibi- who will now be viewed as too soft to do what must be done.
Israelis aren't talking about peace. They are talking about ending Palestinians (as evidence by what is going on in the West Bank). Expect the next elections to bring in a far harder Zionist than Bibi. One that will use the US undying loyalty to the country to do what they have always wanted- expunge the Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza. The rest of the world doesn't matter. So long as the US sends billions to Israel in military and financial aid every year they can ignore everyone else.
The idea of talking about peace went out the window on October 7th.
Hamas has survived the initial onslaught by Israel, they have inflicted casualties and there is no end in sight even if Israel declares victory Hamas will still be around.
This is nothing new simply look at Iraq, Afghanistan et al...Or 1982 with Hezbollah, the Hamas/Israel situation is a mirror view of that conflict.
Things are getting heated in the US over the killing of civilians, so I'm sure that the Biden administration is trying to temper Netanyahu down, where it will lead I don't know but it could be a repeat of Reagan's call to Begen over Beirut and the civilian deaths. Reagan ended that killing of civilians will Biden do the same, it remains to be seen.
Link?
You can read the rest of the article if you want. At worst they want to kill off all of the Palestinians- at best they want to drive them all out of Gaza and the West Bank.
Think Israel is destroying every standing structure in Gaza because they love the Palestinians? Think they are forcing millions of Palestinians into tighter and tighter areas without adequate food, water, electricity, or shelter because they care so much for their lives? Israel has turned Gaza into an unlivable shithole.
How about the West Bank where Israeli settlers and the IDF are upping their killing spree and forcing Palestinians out of their homes. It was bad before Oct 7th; now it is far worse. Israel is using Oct 7th as an excuse to speed up even more taking what land they want in the West Bank.
So please stow the talk of Israelis wanting peace. The only thing they want is the Palestinians gone. They really don't seem to care how it happens at this point; or how many Palestinians die in the process. I am sure Jordan and Egypt will not allow the Palestinians to be pushed into their countries. Even if they have to use military force to secure their borders.
The US is the only country that can put a stop to this; and Brandon doesn't have the balls to. Don't worry I am not just blaming him- Republicans are so beholden to Israel that they try to outdo each other on who backs Israel the most. Both sides are on the take from AIPAC.
But at least our Congress- who can't agree on shit- passed a symbolic resolution making speaking out against Zionists (just another word for Israeli fascists) a form of hate speech. That is sure to solve everything./S
So please, tell it to someone that doesn't get information directly from the source. Tell it to someone that didn't waste close to 10 years of their life trying to make things a little better for the Palestinians.
Sorry, you think peace was still achievable before Oct 7th?
It went out the window right around WWI when the British promised the land to both the Arabs living in the region and the Jews. Peace hasn't been achievable ever since.
Does Israel look like it is going anywhere? They are just getting started.
If all Israel was looking to do was get rid of Hamas you would be right. They are looking to get rid of the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. See post 1.1.3
His own party isn't supporting Brandon; and Republicans are lining up to beat him over the head with it. This might be the only thing the majority of Republicans and Democrats agree on. Until the US cuts off funding to Israel- Israel will continue on it's path.
All of the thoughts, prayers, and dithering by Brandon are worthless.
You're right. Every attempt at peace since then has been turned down by the Arabs.
Every peace deal that has been turned down has been slanted solely to the benefit of Israel.
bibi's autocratic mindset, ....as long as the bullets are flying, his job is safe
Survival depends upon ability to recruit. And that is strictly a political activity. The unbiased liberal media is providing Hamas an amazing amount of free political advertising to encourage recruitment.
Meanwhile Hamas is still firing rockets into Israel from Gaza. That fact seems to escape notice by the unbiased liberal media. And Israel's precondition for a ceasefire has not changed throughout the conflict; Hamas must return the hostages kidnapped on Oct. 7th. Apparently the unbiased liberal media considers that to be an unreasonable and irrational precondition. But, then, it is rather obvious who the unbiased liberals favor.
We saw that during the summer of love in the United States.
The Israel-Palestine dispute got off on the wrong foot in 1947 and the residue of that is still haunting and damaging Israel, and the Palestinians. The European colonialist powers are responsible for this, but now so much time has passed the European powers aren't really powers anymore and they are helpless to effect the situation.
Israel, more specifically Jews, deserve and have a right to a physical homeland, and they do have a legitimate claim that Israel was the ancient homeland of the Hebrew people. Because of centuries of irrational and hateful bigotry the Jewish people were eventually the subject of genocide by the madman Adolf Hitler. After the war and after the death camps it was entirely reasonable that the surviving Jewish population be provided their own nation. What went wrong is that not enough consideration was given to the Palestinian people who were already living there.
75 years later the same issues are still roiling.
Israel is too much under the control of the right wing religious faction. It is hurting Israel in international standing, and with their own security. The "settlements" were wrong, and Netanyahu pushed them again and again, seemingly with the idea that the settlements would make all the Palestinians leave.
Not the Arabic colonialist powers that invaded first?
The conflict we are seeing now started in the 19th century. The Ottoman controlled the area for around four hundred years and no wars. After WWI the Ottoman Empire no longer existed and the British and French divided up the ME, and the wars started. The British mandate was a disaster and led to what is happening today.
A generational fight that will likely last forever.
Fuck all fascists whether Jew, Muslim or Christian.
Religion is the root of all evil!
Exactly, you never hear of an atheist committing crimes. But wait, isn’t money the root of all evil. Maybe evil has two roots.
(deleted)
Here's the quote:
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
--Matthew 19:24
Or even, possibly, three?
Exactly, I should have included Trump and all the other fascists.
True, no war in the ME as the Ottomans were busy with wars in Europe. There wasn't much happening in the ME, it was frozen in time. Europe was progressing, increasing literacy, using the printing press. Slavery was present in most of the empire until WWI went it went underground. Books were unknown until the 18th century but few Arabs could read. Commerce was very limited and no real industrial capacity. The economy was based on tenant farming. There was no notion of elections. It remained a feudal society.
It's no wonder that although greatly outnumbered, Israel kicked Arab and Egyption ass in 48, 67 and 72. Jews were educated, literate, and capable of thinking in the 20th century.
During those 400 years the Europeans fought wars among themselves and of course were also colonists to much of the world and also fighting Turks. With the attention of the Ottoman Empire tied up in European wars no wars were fought among the backward Arabs and isn't that where the Jews lived as well, so I guess that they were as backward as the Arabs. And then we have the Persians, though not Arabs their empire bordered the Ottoman and the Ottoman used the Persian language as the language of diplomacy and was highly developed.
Society in the Ottoman Empire was extremely cosmopolitan. While the ruling sultans were Muslim, Christians, Jews, and other minority religions flourished in the empire. Additionally, the empire was made up of dozens of different ethnicities, which for the most part lived together harmoniously throughout its history.
After the fall of the Ottoman Empire the British and French moved and fucked everything up which we are seeing the result of today.
Of course, the support and backing of the US had little to do with it. Especially in the 72/73 war.
Sure there were. There were uprisings, war with the Persian Empire etc..
The Ottomans were ole' fashioned colonial imperialists, prospering off slaves.
There were also many battles with the Ottomans,
In 1882 when external Jewish organizations began buying land there the Jewish population was only 8% of the region. The growth spurts occurred after land was purchased and before and after WW II.
We provided no military support in 48 and little in 67 and 73. Significant US military aid followed the 73 war.
In the 67 war they were outnumbered 3 : 1, in 73 it was 100 : 1 and 10 : 1 in tanks and artillery. Nixon had to stop the Israelis from completely defeating the encircled Egyptian army and from marching in to Cairo and Damascus.
Persians and neither are Turks Arabs and my comment was, the ''Ottoman Empire tied up in European wars no wars were fought among the backward Arabs.''
I never said they were not colonial imperialists and said nothing of slaves.
No, that didn’t know how to plan, couldn’t make weapons, couldn’t afford to buy them, no infrastructure or logistics.
And? what wars were fought?
Around 400,000 Jews lived in the Ottoman Empire and what does that have to do with my comment? The empire became a safe place for Jews with the Alhambra decree.
I did not say military aid, I said backing which we did give them in 48 (although not all politicians did) in the 67 war we backed them again without sending arms but as soon as the 67 war ended we started supplying them with a number of things. As for 73 we did supply them with an enormous amount of arms under Nixon called Operation Nickel Grass.
I agreed with you fully all the way up to this.
You should have said
and left it at that. Fascism isn't just a religious trait.
Then you went completely off the rails.
Not all religious people are close to being the same. Not all religions are close to being the same. There are zealot atheists as well- such as the Satanic Temple.
Since the Jews lived there as well I guess that would include the Jews as being backward.
Here is a list:
Only about 8% of the Palestinian region population was Jewish. That grew with more educated Jews from Europe, South America and elsewhere.
That was, like I said, a result of the war. It was to replace battle losses. I think the first plane loads landed the day after Israel had surrounded the Egyptian Army in the Sinai.
The USSR was equipping Egypt and the Arabs before and during the war but the belligerents were inept in using the equipment.
Did you take a look at the wars? We were talking about wars in the ME, most of those wars listed are not in the ME.
Yes, the number was around 400,000. Of course it grew many of them were from Africa as well. So then the 400,000 Jews in the ME were not educated?
Operation Nickel Grass started on Oct 9th the first plane landed at Lod on Oct 14th and the war ended on Oct 25th.
Before the 67 war the US opened up America to Israel.
True and that gave Nixon cover to supply Israel.
Of course, I originally said there was pease in the ME and the Ottoman’s were occupied with war in Europe after conquering most of the ME.
Probably more so than their Arab neighbors.
Yes, that equipment replenished battles losses from the war.
Didn’t mean to hit send.
The point is, Israel was intelligent enough to fight and win outnumbered and surprised, while the Arabs weren’t.
The Egyptian got smart over time and made peace while severing relations with Palestinians and closing their Gaza border.
I have been to various military schools with allied officers. I’ve been to various military schools with allied officers, Egyptian and Jordanian took it serious and worked hard. Saudis took as a joke, they drank, cheated on their wives and didn’t do the work.
I have served and lived in many places around the world and always found things to admire about the people and their culture, except while in Saudi, Kuwait and the UAE. They are still a little backward people propped up by their oil wealth. Am I prejudiced, damn right I am.
Bush thought the Iraqi’s intelligent enough to lead the Arabs out of the darkness if liberated from Saddam. While he/we made many tragic mistakes there at a huge human cost, his first mistake was thinking that the region was worthy of our investment.
The Arab Spring died and the further we can move away from oil, the more we can let them wallow in the 14th century thinking. It’s Iran or Persia that we need to watch. They’re much more advanced than the Arabs so they are and will remain dangerous.
I do feel empathy for the Bedouins. They are trapped by their geography.
That is true, but that was yesterday, today is much different and without the US, Israel would eventually be overrun.
OK, but what is the point, both Egypt and Jordan have treaties with Israel and SA was (perhaps still is) normalizing relations with Israel. Although I would not trust SA any further than I could throw an anvil.
I don't know what Bush thought whatever it was, was a huge mistake costing the US trillions and thousands of lives.
The US is now the largest producer of oil in the world, and will continue to be for quite some time. SA controls OPEC and are trying currently to hold oil prices high by cutting production and it isn't working. Angola, a member of OPEC dropped out of OPEC yesterday complaining that they didn't see SA's plan working and moved awaay from them. Although they only produce 1.1 mpd it is sending a message to SA.
Yes, they are and they also have long memories, 1953 is still in their minds.
As have I and have enjoyed the cultural experiences, I've not been to SA, Kuwait or UAE yet none of the three are attacking Israel nor have they in the past. If you choose to be prejudiced that's your decision, not mine.
I have not been to any of those three countries but have spent a lot of time in other ME countries including Israel.
Jews had been buying much land in what is now Israel for 60 years before the UN decision. The Palestinians lost big time when the Arab states wouldn't accept partition and went to war with the new state of Israel. Between that first war, the 67 and 73 war, the Palestinians would not have lost 50% of the land that had originally been allocated to it. These people have a real history a bad decision making.
Here's what someone (who served as the 67th United States secretary of state in the administration of Barack Obama from 2009 to 2013) said about the Palestinians getting their own state:
She was absolutely right. After that turn down and the Intifada’s that followed, turned the Israel government increasingly to the hard right. Couple that with no Palestinian leadership to negotiate with and Oct 7, and the most peaceful Israeli says enough. I don’t see a way ahead with out a wholesale change in Palestinian leadership and attitude.
Sorry, but would it be too much trouble to copy and paste what was said in a comment?
Buzz,
It was an interview with Hillary Clinton on The View. Clinton talked about what Bill had done in the 90s and what she had done as Secretary of State regarding Palestine.
You mean no Palestinian leadership that Israel wanted to negotiate with. The PA capitulated completely. They were rewarded by Israel breaking the Oslo Accords and massive settlement expansion. The West Bank Palestinians are just now beginning to fight back to try and keep what land they have left. Too little too late. The settlers by themselves have them outgunned. Throw in the IDF and they stand no chance.
Israel uses Hamas as an excuse. It won't negotiate with the PA because the PA doesn't represent all Palestinians. Bibi won't give the PA power over Gaza because then he will be out of excuses not to negotiate with the PA. Not that Gazans would accept the corrupt PA that has been sucking off the US/Israeli tit.
Thank you mocowgirl.
No question they are losing. Impossible to win a war when you have any setbacks.
There's so much hopium in this article about Israel losing. It's palpable. But that's far left journalism these days. Root, root, root for the terrorists and if they don't win its a shame.
Seems that your comment revolves around ''far left journalism'' instead of reading the article and making sensible comments pro or con.
Thank you for adding nothing to the commentary.
It appears that Bibi isn't listening to the detractors. It seems that many people that should know better want Hamas to win out.
Israeli Prime Minister Gives Hamas a Choice (townhall.com)
Most on the left do. Just ask any student or instructor on any elite university and you will see how right I am,
LOL
If most on the left do want Hamas to win out could you come up with some stats. Most students and instructors at elite university are a very small number compared to the overall population of the US.
Now, comment on the article and the authors conclusions on the war, anything else is off topic.
[removed]
Would you list those ''many people'' and show their comments that they want Hamas to win out?
Would you try to comment on the article and the authors conclusions?
I'm not speaking FOR him, but have you actually listened to what protestors on university campuses are saying, INCLUDING some professors?
Does "from the river to the sea" mean anything to you, or is it just a saying?
I'm not saying YOU support Hamas, but unfortunately, there are many, many people in this country that do, and some of them have public speaking podiums.
no x 3...
Yes, I have many times.
Of course it does and it does mean a lot to me, certainly more than most people on NT.
That's nice that you don't think I support Hamas. Yes, many do support Hamas or want a cease fire.
The choice was "Surrender or die." That choice does not take into consideration that in the mind of a fanatical Hamas fighter dying is preferable to surrendering. Why? Because if he dies he will be considered a martyr and he will be welcomed to the Garden of Allah where he will spend the rest of time enjoying the pleasures of deflowering and screwing his 72 virgins. It is his RELIGION to kill Jews. As is inscribed in the Koran:
LINK ->
Hamas might change its constitution, but it will NOT change its religion. Hamas will continue to attack Israel notwithstanding ANY ceasefire since they break every one they ever agreed to until the last Hamas or Islamic Jihad or any other such terrorist group member has gone to his virgins.
Maybe if John Lennon were still alive, he and Yoko might be singing along with the author and so many others these days in the world: "All we are saying, is give Hamas a chance."
A chance to do what Hitler failed to do.
Yes, Israel HAS lost a war. It will be a pyrrhic victory for Israel to win the battle against Hamas and Islamic Jihad, but it has already lost the war of public opinion. Hamas has taken full advantage of that - you can see the results they've accomplished all over the world, including on this site.
I'm with Antony Blinken:
Secretary of State Antony Blinken on Wednesday called out other countries for not demanding Hamas surrender.
“What is striking to me is that even as, again, we hear many countries urging the end to this conflict, which we would all like to see, I hear virtually no one saying – demanding of Hamas that it stop hiding behind civilians, that it lay down its arms, that it surrender. This is over tomorrow if Hamas does that. This would have been over a month ago, six weeks ago, if Hamas had done that,” Blinken said during a press briefing at the State Department Wednesday.
“How can it be that there are no demands made of the aggressor and only demands made of the victim,” Blinken went on to say.
I don't like Netanyahu, but if anyone is winning the narrative, it's not Israel or the IDF, and articles like this show that.
How many times have I posted on this site that NOBODY has been demanding, even asking, that Hamas surrender in order to end the bloodshed. Its defeat at the hands of a far superior force is inevitable, but Blinken is quite right that if Hamas (and Islamic Jihad, its accomplice) were to surrender not one more Gazan would be killed or injured. However, the reason Hamas will NOT surrender is posted by me just above. It is their religion to kill the Jews, and they refuse to be heretics.
On more than one occasion I've said that Israel should destroy Hamas and I've also said/called for the Palestinian people have to rid themselves of Hamas to become a legitimate entity in the formation of a new Palestinian state.
Why would anyone think that Hamas would surrender? They are terrorists and most will die before surrendering which would mean if they did surrender they would be tried in a world court or in Isreal. Surely that would be the end of their lives so why surrender?
IMO, every country in the world can call for their surrender and it will not affect them. The front with Hezbollah is getting more dangerous by the minute and the Houties are doing their best to intervene in the conflict. Which is all in support of Hamas and draws more of the IDF away from Gaza. Why would they surrender?
I don’t think that Israel wants them to surrender. I think the vast majority of Israelis want anyone associated with 7 Oct to be killed.
Obviously, a surrender would be negotiated. If Israel throws in the towel now, it will be a win for Hamas. This is a sum zero game.
To what end? The current head of Hamas spent 20 years in an Israeli prison and that didn't do anything but make him fluent in Hebrew and learn much more about Israel. Today you are seeing the result of that prison time.
Israel has made it clear that it will hunt down and kill all Hamas leaders anywhere in the world.
Yes, of course, it would be, no question to that at all.
What Israel wants and what the court of public opinion is are two different things. And while I agree that that is what Israel probably wants, I doubt it will get it.
I also agree with Kavika that Hamas would rather die than surrender, which is why we are in the situation we are in. But I disagree that this is all on Israel. Once Oct 7th happened, this was the logical outcome.
To give authority of Gaza to the PA.
I don't think that will work, Perrie. The Palestinians don't want them, Israel said they do not want the PA in charge of Gaza. They are corrupt and useless just like their leader Aabbas.
Then to a group of countries that will watch over them.
Israel can not live with a terrorist organization on their doorstep. Oct 7 showed us that and no other country in the world would be expected to put up with a Sept 11, every few years. Hamas clearly doesn't care about the Palestinians, so if the world is crying out for them (and I totally get that), then it's up to the world to put skin in the game.
Recent Palestinian polling both in Gaza during the cease fire and on the West Bank show majority support for Hamas and disdain for the PA. They think that Hamas made the right decision on 7 Oct and that they haven’t committed any war crimes,
Israel won’t and shouldn’t trust any UN force to effectively police Gaza. There isn’t a solution and won’t be until the Arabs have a different mindset. Until then, then best that Israel can do is to continue killing anyone associated with Hamas, destroying the tunnels and other Hamas infrastructure and weapons.
The world has never tried to pressure the Arabs to settle this, largely I think, due to antisemitism and indifference to Palestinians.
Something close to your comment were proposed 20 years ago by Saudi Arabia and ignored by all.
I agree there has to be some coalition formed that allows the Palestinians their own territory with governing ability and a way to keep Hamas or any terrorist organization out.
That hasn't worked in over 2000 years. People seem pretty intent on keeping "land" they think is theirs by whatever divine right... It's always going to come down to ours/theirs and us/others.
I think the only way to solve millennia of hatred is to form binding open partnerships and co-govern the region. Getting everyone pulling on the same end of the rope has it's challenges, but the rewards are (historically) longer lasting.
I agree with you on this, evilone and in fact I believe and aways have that the wars are much more about land then about religion.
Sometimes I wonder if it isn't about good old fashion hate and after many generations people don't quite remember what started it, all they know is they have to hate the other group.
The Ottoman Empire controlled the ME for over 400 years without wars and it ended at the end of WWI when the Turks lost and the French and English took over and the wars between Israel et all started, the English screwed it up something terrible and after the British Mandate handed it to the UN who was a brand new organization at the time 1948 and everything went to hell after that.
The Brits truly were challenged by the increasing Jewish population and their demands for self-government, and a growing Arab nationalist movement rejecting this Jewish presence.
They also got tired of being attacked by both sides. They might have thought, 'we didn't bleed in two world wars to die in this shithole," which the region was then.
I don't blame them. Israel does not use capital punishment, and I think that the only time it was a special case and they did was for Adolph Eichmann. I'm sure the Israelis would rather see them die on the battlefield than be given room and board in a prison at the Israelis' expense.
Having the UN control Gaza would be to put it into the hands of the largest most international antisemitic organization in the world.
You got that right, Buzz.
Yes, but let's not forget that their religion tells them to kill the Jews, as I've shown above. Who intends to control or change THAT?
Last week I heard an interview on NPR with an Israeli who had done very well in Silicon Valley before moving back to Israel. There he has been an outspoken advocate for a two state solution, invested in businesses in Gaza and donated almost a million dollars for improved hospitals in Gaza.
On 7 Oct, his 19 year old daughter was killed and the music festival with her fiancée.
He was asked if he was sorry for his previous Palestine support and has he changed his mind going forward. He replied no, he wasn’t sorry because it was the right thing to do and he would continue trying to find peace and help the Palestinians. But only after everyone associated with 7 Oct was hunted down and killed. He was confident that between cell phone traffic, video including Hamas shot video and other intelligence, Israel can identify, locate and kill them.
The most avid peace lovers in Israel won’t let the IFD stop until they are eliminated. I think that is the right call.
Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon et al practice the same religion and they are not at war with Israel, so it would seem that those that are terrorists, Hamas, Hezbollah, et al practice it literally many other Muslim countries do not. Kind of like Christians and the bible or Jews and the Torah.
Sending Mossad into other countries to kill Hamas leaders will lead to a hell of a lot more problems for Israel.
That may well be true, but IMO there is no way that Israel can completely destroy Hamas, they will survive and change names or reconstitute as Hamas again.
I’m just reporting what I think the most peace loving Israelis think after 3 wars, 3 intifadas, and 7 Oct.
Egypt and Jordan have entered into peace agreements with Israel, but Lebanon and Syria are still at war with Israel. Of course the problem is the ultra-religious of ANY religion. Although the Iranian people generally are most likely not Jew-haters, their government wants to wipe Israel off the face of the planet, and they've been helping Hamas and Hezbollah as their proxies in trying their damnedest to do it.
Blinken just proved he is even a bigger moron than I thought.
Israel wants the Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank- their own government officials have said so repeatedly. If Hamas surrendered tomorrow Israel wouldn't believe them and would continue to bombing and military drive throughout Gaza. They may kill off the current Hamas; but it will spring back up from the Gazans that survive the attacks and have watched their parents, families, and friends die at the hands of the IDF.
The only way to ensure that Hamas doesn't reappear is to get rid of all of the Palestinians.
As for Israel not winning the narrative- they could care less. So long as US money and arms flow freely into Israel (and the US protects Israel in the UN Security Council and General Assembly) they are set.
Maybe Ronin1 might not have posted such anti-Israel pro-terrorist comments.
Read all of my comments Buzz. [Deleted]
None of the factions give a shit about the Palestinians. I have repeated that countless times.
Sorry if I refuse to jump on the fascist band wagons.
I have a friend's family members to worry about in Gaza and the West Bank; so sorry if I am a little terse with the jackasses that are responsible for the situation. If you like I can do a very long post with links detailing why Britain/France/ and disinterest from the US in stopping them led to where we are today. I can be anti a lot of things.
since this is largely a war caused by the radicals of 2 religions, my peace solution is relatively simple.
... that should eliminate most of the problems inhibiting peace in the region.
I'm sure that it would.