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Alabama plans to execute a man using nitrogen gas. How will it work? Few know.

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  perrie-halpern  •  9 months ago  •  62 comments

By:   Abigail Brooks and Erik Ortiz

Alabama plans to execute a man using nitrogen gas. How will it work? Few know.
Alabama is poised to use nitrogen gas in a planned execution next month — making it the first of any state to attempt such a method and setting the stage for legal challenges.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


ATMORE, Ala. — Alabama is poised to use nitrogen gas in a planned execution next month, the first state to attempt such a method, setting the stage for legal challenges as officials across the U.S. examine alternatives amid a shortage of lethal injection drugs.

But while Alabama is intent on using nitrogen hypoxia, in which a person breathes only nitrogen and dies from a lack of oxygen, some details of the protocol remain cloaked in mystery to the public.

Even the inmate who is set to die, Kenneth Eugene Smith, told NBC News this month that he is not privy to an unredacted state protocol describing how the procedure will work. His legal and medical representatives were permitted this month to tour the execution chamber and inspect a mask for breathing the nitrogen, but without Smith.

Read more on this story at NBCNews.com and watch "Hallie Jackson NOW" on NBC News NOW Friday at 5 p.m. ET/4 p.m. CT.

"As goes Kenny, so goes the rest of my brothers," Smith said of the 163 other death row inmates in the state during a phone interview from the William C. Holman Correctional Facility in Atmore.

Adding to the novelty of his case, Smith, 58, is a rare example of a person surviving a failed execution attempt:A previous plan to put him to death by lethal injection in November 2022 was called off when prison staff was unable to find a suitable vein. This, in addition to mounting scrutiny over the use of the lethal injection in other inmates, set off a pause in executions in Alabama.

"It's not a one size fits all," Smith said.

Smith was convicted for his role in the 1988 murder-for-hire slaying of a preacher's wife, Elizabeth Sennett, in Alabama's Colbert County. Her family said they are putting their faith in officials to complete the execution — scheduled for Jan. 25 — following decades of legal-related delays, but stopped short of saying they trust the state to carry out Smith's sentence after the failed attempt last year.

"I mean, you can't really test it on nobody, but I just hope they get it right this time," Elizabeth Sennett's son, Michael Sennett, said.

Lethal injection remains the primary method of executions in Alabama, but the state, which approved the use of nitrogen in 2018, wants to employ it in Smith's case. When Smith's execution failed last year, the state agreed they would not try to execute him again via lethal injection.

With so many lingering questions and the state's dubious track record, death penalty experts and critics say the decision to try an untested method doesn't instill public confidence.

Oklahoma and Mississippi have also approved the use of nitrogen hypoxia, but neither have tried it.

"It's a slapdash thing," Deborah Denno, a professor at Fordham Law School who studies the death penalty, said, adding that "the states are so desperate to keep executing people that they come up with a method and say, 'this is foolproof,' and then provide so few details."

What the state protocol says — and doesn't say


The public got a first glimpse of how an execution by nitrogen hypoxia could work when a protocol produced by the Alabama Department of Corrections was included in a court filing in August.

The inmate will be placed on a gurney in the execution chamber and given a pulse oximeter, which measures oxygen levels in the blood, the document says. A mask — described by officials in an affidavit as "used for industrial purposes" — will be tested to ensure "breathing air is being supplied" before it is strapped onto the inmate's face.

A spiritual adviser will be permitted to enter the chamber and interact with the inmate as part of a previously approved plan. (The spiritual adviser will remain in the chamber until the execution is complete.)

Then, curtains to the chamber will be drawn so the execution can be viewed by witnesses. The inmate will be allowed to make a final statement, and if no stay of execution is granted, the mask will be inspected a final time and "the warden will activate the nitrogen hypoxia system," according to the document.

Nitrogen gas would be administered into the mask for either 15 minutes or "five minutes following a flatline indication on the EKG, whichever is longer," the document says.

But the outline of the procedure also includes heavily redacted passages related to how the oxygen-monitoring equipment is calibrated, how the nitrogen hypoxia system is operated, including various safety requirements, and the shutdown of the system.

Other details, including who is supplying the nitrogen gas and the mask, how the gas is generally being stored and what safety training the prison staff has undergone, remains unclear.

"All the parts we would need to know most about are redacted," said Denno, the Fordham professor. "Where are they getting the gas? That's very important. Even if you don't want to mention the manufacturer, you want to know, as we do with our lethal injection drugs: Is the gas coming from a legitimate source? Is it being delivered to the Department of Corrections or is it being made somewhere?"

The Alabama attorney general's office did not immediately respond to a request for comment regarding further details about the nitrogen gas method. A source familiar with Attorney General Steve Marshall's thinking said he is "determined" to see Smith's execution through, telling NBC News that he has been pushing for the development of the nitrogen protocol during his time in office, describing it as a "non-negotiable" before his term ends in January 2027.

"This new method may prove to be more efficient for the government's use and has the tangential benefit of being painless," said the source, referring to challenges with lethal injection. "Mrs. Sennett's death, of course, was not."

In a prior statement, Marshall said that it is necessary for the execution of Smith to move forward.

"Though the wait has been far too long, I am grateful that our talented capital litigators have nearly gotten this case to the finish line," Marshall said.

How does nitrogen hypoxia kill?


Nitrogen is a naturally occurring odorless and colorless gas; it is abundant — found in the earth's atmosphere and the soil — and it can be used to rapidly freeze food in its liquid form.

But if not mixed with an appropriate amount of oxygen, breathing it in can lead to adverse physiological effects, such as abnormal fatigue, impaired respiration, vomiting and even death.

Joel Zivot, a practicing physician in anesthesiology and intensive care medicine at Emory University in Atlanta, said he would like to know how Alabama prison officials plan to deliver pure nitrogen without allowing oxygen to mix with it.

If "nitrogen is mixed with any amount of oxygen, any amount of air, then it will take longer for the nitrogen to cause death, or it may never cause death," said Zivot, adding that if the process is prolonged, "you're talking about basically death by slow asphyxiation, which the body will interpret as profoundly uncomfortable and frightening."

"There is no room for error," he said.

An unintended nitrogen leak can also have disastrous consequences, Zivot warned.

"The thing about lethal injection is that once the catheter is in and the medication is being injected, there really should be no risk to anybody, any observer or anybody in the room because the chemicals don't leave the body of the prisoner and touch anyone else," he said. "But of course, gas will go wherever it wants to go, wherever there are places for it to go."

A U.S. Chemical Safety Board report that reviewed dozens of cases of nitrogen asphyxiation between 1992 and 2002 found 80 deaths, with the majority of incidents occurring in manufacturing and industrial settings. The board said causes of death included a failure to detect the lack of enough oxygen in a confined space and a mistaken use of nitrogen gas instead of breathing air.

In 2021, six workers died of nitrogen asphyxiation from a liquid nitrogen leak at a chicken processing plant in Georgia.

There is no room for error."

Dr. Joel Zivot

At a hearing this month, Smith's legal team argued before a federal judge that the use of nitrogen hypoxia would violate the constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment. An anesthesiologist testifying on behalf of Smith said he could vomit with a risk that he chokes, experience the sensation of feeling suffocated or potentially be left in a vegetative state.

State prosecutors called those possibilities speculative and said they believe it's possible for nitrogen to be used humanely.

The American Veterinary Medical Association has affirmed nitrogen hypoxia for euthanizing only certain animals, such as chickens and turkeys, and recommends giving larger animals a sedative. Understanding how human bodies react to nitrogen hypoxia is limited because it is not something medical professionals can legitimately study as it relates to executions; it's unclear if Alabama's protocol recommends the use of a sedative.

The American Medical Association "cannot ask physicians to violate professional ethics by imparting medical knowledge that can aid or contribute to the ability of others to carry out methods of capital punishment," a spokesperson said.

Could the execution be delayed?


U.S. District Judge R. Austin Huffaker Jr. did not indicate when he may rule on Smith's case, but in a court order last week suggested that Alabama make at least one compromise by allowing his last rites be given before the mask is secured.

Smith's spiritual adviser, the Rev. Jeff Hood, filed a lawsuit this month claiming the state is violating his religious liberties by requiring him to be no closer than 3 feet to Smith in the execution chamber.

Hood, an opponent of the death penalty, said Alabama has since agreed to allow him to be with Smith before his mask is affixed and that he can touch Smith during the execution. He still has questions about his safety.

"If a nitrogen leak were to happen in the execution chamber, who will be there?" Hood asked during a news conference after filing his complaint. "What is the emergency procedure if I collapse?"

The Alabama Department of Corrections declined to comment on pending litigation.

Smith was 22 when pastor Charles Sennett hired him and two others for $1,000 each to kill his wife so he could collect on her life insurance, prosecutors said. Elizabeth Sennett, 45, was stabbed and beaten to death in her home.

"If I could turn back the hand of time I'd absolutely do it," Smith said this month. "There's been many lives lost already from this case, and this is going to make more victims."

Sennett's family disagrees.

"It doesn't matter to me how he goes out, so long as he goes," Michael Sennett said.

Smith said he hopes that any delay in his execution will be long enough for the state Legislature to pass a bill that would benefit him. A judge sentenced Smith to death in 1996, despite a jury voting 11-1 that he receive life in prison.

A bill that would require a unanimous jury to impose the death penalty, and would apply retroactively to cases such as Smith's, did not advance this year but is expected to be reintroduced when the next session begins in February.

Smith has unanswered questions about the nitrogen hypoxia protocol, but said he only spirals into depression and anxiety when he thinks about the failed execution last year and what awaits him in the coming month.

"The fact that they've got me lined up to be the first with gas is really terrifying," he said. "Yeah, it's surreal to be in this position."


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Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1  Buzz of the Orient    9 months ago

Although I'm opposed to capital punishment, if it's going to be meted out then why screw around with methods that sometimes don't work, or that can stretch into torture, but use the tried and true instant death - the guillotine.  It has history, it's dramatic, and the coffin can be shorter, saving wood. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.1  Vic Eldred  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1    9 months ago

Good one!

I, on the other hand, am a huge supporter of the death penalty.  I agree on one thing you just said: let us not screw around.

Truman Capote who wrote "In Cold Blood" tried to let us all see both sides of the issue (a heinous crime and the actual execution), once said, on "Firing Line," that he wasn't against the death penalty per se, but was against the way the US granted endless appeals, which kept the thought of execution permanently on the minds of those appealing such a verdict and therefore was a mentally cruel punishment.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1.1.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.1    9 months ago

Canada abolished capital punishment almost half a century ago.  One of the cases that was of importance was the wrongful conviction of Steven Truscott who was 14 years old when he was sentenced to hang for a crime he never committed. 

LINK to the Steven Truscott matter ->

Had there been DNA evidence available back then he would not have been convicted, but the reason I do not support capital punishment is what happened to Steven Truscott.  It was a very famous case that occurred when I was a law student. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Expert
1.2  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1    9 months ago
but use the tried and true instant death - the guillotine

Actually, the guillotine was not instant death. The head remained alive for over 2 minutes and was often seen as trying to talk (it couldn't without air from the lungs), so the person knew they were dying for 2 minutes. Cruel and unusual punishment, but American standards.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.2.1  devangelical  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1.2    9 months ago

such a horrific death combined with a video documenting the event might prove to be a better deterrent, but I'd prefer the condemned be placed on their backs, so they could see the blade coming...

why complicate things? ankle shackle the condemned to the bottom of a 8 foot tall acrylic tube and fill it with water. zero failure rate on that method and no mess...

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Junior Quiet
1.2.2  afrayedknot  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1.2    9 months ago

“Cruel and unusual punishment, but American standards…”

And to what end?

Put them away, throw away the key, no years of legal wrangling after sentencing. No putting the survivors through the torment of reliving the trauma, just a bit of solace in knowing the perpetrator will never return and will live and eventually die knowing the pain caused. 

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Principal
1.2.3  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  afrayedknot @1.2.2    9 months ago
Put them away, throw away the key,

That puts them as a burden of the taxpayer.

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Junior Quiet
1.2.4  afrayedknot  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @1.2.3    9 months ago

“That puts them as a burden of the taxpayer.”

An incredibly small fraction of the populace.

The larger question…do we as a society accept an ‘eye for an eye’ system of justice with state sanctioned murder (and take a look at the regimes who do) or do we as a society reject the notion of retribution as a means to an end. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.2.5  Texan1211  replied to  afrayedknot @1.2.4    9 months ago

There simply is NO state sanctioned murder in the US.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1.2.6  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1.2    9 months ago

Oh, okay.  I thought that cutting the nerves to the brain would mean that the person would feel no pain.  Maybe a bullet to the back of the head is the least cruel foolproof method.  There are nations where that is the technique.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Expert
1.2.7  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.2.6    9 months ago

Now there we agree.

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
1.2.8  arkpdx  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.2.6    9 months ago

I personally don't care if those that are executed suffer in agony for a long time. 

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
1.2.9  arkpdx  replied to  arkpdx @1.2.8    9 months ago

I think I wouldn't be a bad thing if those convicted of capital crimes ended up like the one that ended up not being able to do anything but lie in a bed and stare at the ceiling. 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
1.2.10  mocowgirl  replied to  arkpdx @1.2.9    9 months ago
I think I wouldn't be a bad thing if those convicted of capital crimes ended up like the one that ended up not being able to do anything but lie in a bed and stare at the ceiling.

I am not supportive of torturing anyone for any reason.  That would be like torturing a grizzly bear for being a grizzly bear.

Humans are a product of their breeding, gender and environment.  Sometimes all of it is bad and sometimes none of it is bad.  There is much to learn about why some people are psychopaths and how to deal with the psychopaths that commit murders and other atrocities.

Many world leaders today could well be psychopaths.

I really try to understand who and what I support and why I support it.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1.2.11  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  arkpdx @1.2.8    9 months ago

Is anyone seeking an amendment to the adage of cruel and unusual punishment?

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
1.2.12  JBB  replied to  arkpdx @1.2.8    9 months ago

And, you don't see that as a problem? 

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
1.2.13  arkpdx  replied to  mocowgirl @1.2.10    9 months ago
I am not supportive of torturing anyone for any reason.

I support it for serial killers , child rapists and killers , killer kidnappers. Murders of law enforcement personnel, even for those serving life without parole of they kill a guard or other prisoner. 

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
1.2.14  arkpdx  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.2.11    9 months ago

Unfortunately no

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
1.2.15  arkpdx  replied to  JBB @1.2.12    9 months ago

Nope. Why would I. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.2.16  devangelical  replied to  arkpdx @1.2.13    9 months ago

don't forget about the insurrectionists...

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
1.2.17  arkpdx  replied to  devangelical @1.2.16    9 months ago

What insurectoonists?

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.3  Ozzwald  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1    9 months ago
Although I'm opposed to capital punishment, if it's going to be meted out then why screw around with methods that sometimes don't work, or that can stretch into torture, but use the tried and true instant death - the guillotine.

I am also opposed to the death penalty except under the most extreme of circumstances, however, from what I understand nitrogen asphyxiation is not as bad as you may think.  It does not trigger the feeling that you cannot breathe, until you pass out you feel like everything is fine, and basically fall asleep.  No being strapped to an uncomfortable chair, no watching  a needle being inserted in a vein, and no blindfolds.

Note: I am defending the method, NOT whether it is necessary or just.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
1.3.1  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Ozzwald @1.3    9 months ago

This "other doctor" seems to disagree with your assertion...........from the article.........

 An anesthesiologist testifying on behalf of Smith said he could vomit with a risk that he chokes, experience the sensation of feeling suffocated or potentially be left in a vegetative state.
 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
1.3.2  George  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @1.3.1    9 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
1.3.3  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  George @1.3.2    9 months ago

256

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1.3.4  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @1.3.3    9 months ago

I saw that meme years ago, but it IS funny.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.3.5  Ozzwald  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @1.3.1    9 months ago
An anesthesiologist testifying on behalf of Smith

1 single anesthesiologist means nothing, get the AMA to issue a statement and I'll listen.  You can find an individual to testify to anything based on their personal opinion or need for money, let's hear from the medical community in general about it.  As I have read, based on another doctor, nitrogen asphyxiation is perceived as simply going to sleep with none of the chocking/gasping symptoms.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
2  Tacos!    9 months ago

Why not just give him a little fentanyl? Seems to work great on everybody else.

 
 
 
Gazoo
Junior Silent
3  Gazoo    9 months ago

I say just use the firing squad. It’s quick, cheap, and effective. However, there must be absolutely no doubt about guilt, none whatsoever, when executing someone. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
3.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Gazoo @3    9 months ago

Sometimes all the bullets miss the most fatal spots in which it becomes torture.  Why a squad?  So no one shooter could be blamed for the killing?  

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
3.1.1  charger 383  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.1    9 months ago

I heard in a firing squad one member randomly had a blank 

 
 
 
GregTx
Professor Guide
3.1.2  GregTx  replied to  charger 383 @3.1.1    9 months ago

What's the purpose of that?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
3.1.3  sandy-2021492  replied to  GregTx @3.1.2    9 months ago

My understanding was that it allowed each member of the firing squad to believe that maybe he didn't fire the killing shot.  It turns out that not everybody really wants to be an executioner, but many who didn't want to be were on firing squads, anyway, and were psychologically damaged by it.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Principal
4  Jeremy Retired in NC    9 months ago

Just go back to public hanging.  We know it works, it's much cheaper, better for the environment, and a better deterrent.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
4.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @4    9 months ago

Well, at least that method has American history behind it, not only legal but also lots of lynching. 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5  mocowgirl    9 months ago

In order to be completely fair, should the murderer be executed the same way they murdered their victim(s)?

 
 
 
Gazoo
Junior Silent
5.1  Gazoo  replied to  mocowgirl @5    9 months ago

I like that idea!

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Principal
5.2  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  mocowgirl @5    9 months ago

There's an option.  I like it.

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
5.3  George  replied to  mocowgirl @5    9 months ago

Or just give the surviving family members clubs? 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.3.1  mocowgirl  replied to  George @5.3    9 months ago
Or just give the surviving family members clubs?

Only if applicable to the murder. /sarc  

Death by firing squad may be the most humane method.  Fentanyl or heroin might be a close second.  I don't know since I have never wanted to do drugs - legal or illegal.

There is a reason that survivors allow the state to avenge the death of their loved one(s) instead of doing it themselves.

I have zero sympathy for rapists, pedophiles and murderers.  My sympathy lies solely with the people who will mourn the needless loss of their loved one(s) until they die.

While I have no issue with them receiving a quick death, I find it strange with all the hand-wringing about whether a murderer suffers any pain while being executed.  

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
5.3.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  mocowgirl @5.3.1    9 months ago

I am generally against the death penalty because we know that innocent people have been executed.  There may be some legal room for exceptions.

That said, I don't understand why it's so hard to do it humanly.  Over my life, I've had to put down three dogs.  The vet had no problem finding their little veins.  The went to sleep gently and then they died. 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.3.3  mocowgirl  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.3.2    9 months ago
I am generally against the death penalty because we know that innocent people have been executed.

How about bombing and killing women and children who have never committed a crime?

Why are some people so concerned about humanely killing a convicted murderer and then so gung ho about bombing tens of thousands of women and children to death?

Is this a good example of cognitive dissonance?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.3.4  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @5.3.3    9 months ago
How about bombing and killing women and children who have never committed a crime?

Do you actually know anyone supporting that?

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
5.3.5  arkpdx  replied to  mocowgirl @5.3.3    9 months ago

I wonder why so many are concerned about the death and the manner of death for scumbag filthy convicted murderers [Deleted]

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
5.3.6  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  mocowgirl @5.3.3    9 months ago
How about bombing and killing women and children who have never committed a crime?

That is a tragedy.

Why are some people so concerned about humanely killing a convicted murderer and then so gung ho about bombing tens of thousands of women and children to death?

I don’t know, do you see that as a prevalent attitude here?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.3.7  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Texan1211 @5.3.4    9 months ago

I think she's referring to the Israel-Hamas conflict.  However there are issues to consider there, such as the necessity of placing the blame on those who provoked the retaliation, those who made it necessary by proving that they would never stop provoking that result, those who by their actions made it so difficult to ascertain the militants from the civilians and using them as human shields, those whose crimes on Oct 7 were so horrific, so depraved, that the descriptions of what they did to innocent civilians, to teenage girls, to babies, would sicken even a common murderer, those whose religion told them to do it, and that their Day of Judgment would never come unless they would kill those who had no choice but to retaliate to defend themselves, those who were declared to be terrorists by civilized nations.....

Do Americans defend the perpetrators of 9/11 as much as so many who stand up for the perpetrators of Oct 7?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
5.3.8  sandy-2021492  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.3.7    9 months ago
Do Americans defend the perpetrators of 9/11 as much as so many who stand up for the perpetrators of Oct 7?

I don't know of anybody standing up for the perpetrators of 9/11, or for Hamas.

Some (probably most) didn't actually believe the ME should have been turned to glass over 9/11, and some would rather non-civilians not die in the Israel-Hamas conflict.

I didn't see mocowgirl defending the perpetrators of October 7th, unless you're assuming the women and children she mentioned are members of Hamas.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.3.9  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @5.3.4    9 months ago
Do you actually know anyone supporting that?

Unfortunately, I have known people who have done that most of my life.  The "other" people deserve to be enslaved or eliminated just because they are the "other" or associated with the "other".  The term "collateral damage" allows them to justify or ignore the murders of millions of civilians who were unlucky enough to be born in a nation where some other nation wants control of their government and natural resources (such as oil, gold, diamonds, rare earth minerals, land, etc.)

Whenever the US government and media begin beating the war drums against another nation, the first thing I do is check out the country's economy and natural resources because the motive damn sure isn't about "saving" the country's women and children.  

The U.S. post-9/11 wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria, and Pakistan have taken a tremendous human toll on those countries. As of September 2021, an estimated   432,093  civilians in these countries have died violent deaths as a result of the wars. As of May 2023, an estimated   3.6-3.8 million   people have died indirectly in post-9/11 war zones. The total death toll in these war zones could be at least 4.5-4.7 million and counting, though the precise mortality figure remains unknown. Civilian deaths have also resulted from U.S. post-9/11 military operations in   Somalia   and other countries.

People living in the war zones have been killed in their homes, in markets, and on roadways. They have been killed by bombs, bullets, fire, improvised explosive devices (IEDs), and drones. Civilians die at checkpoints, as they are run off the road by military vehicles, when they step on mines or cluster bombs, as they collect wood or tend to their fields, and when they are kidnapped and executed for purposes of revenge or intimidation. They are killed by the United States, by its allies, and by insurgents and sectarians in the civil wars spawned by the invasions.

War can also lead to death weeks or months after battles. Many times more people in the warzones have died as a result of battered infrastructure and poor health conditions arising from the wars than directly from its violence. For example, war refugees often lose access to a stable food supply or to their jobs, resulting in increased malnutrition and vulnerability to disease.

The Costs of War reports document the direct and indirect toll that war takes on civilians and their livelihoods, including the lingering effects of war death and injury on survivors and their families.


Key Findings

  • 432,093  civilians have died violent deaths as a direct result of the U.S. post-9/11 wars.

  • An estimated  3.6-3.8 million  people have died indirectly in post-9/11 war zones, bringing the total death toll to at least 4.5-4.7 million and counting.

  • More than   7.6 million   children under five in post-9/11 war zones are suffering from acute malnutrition
  • War deaths from malnutrition and a damaged health system and environment likely far outnumber deaths from combat.

Recommendations 

  • The U.S. government should include civilian deaths and injuries in public reporting of war deaths, including a tally of children killed.
  • The U.S. government should do a more comprehensive and thorough job investigating allegations of civilian deaths that result from its drone strikes.
(Page updated as of August 2023)

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.3.10  mocowgirl  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.3.7    9 months ago
I think she's referring to the Israel-Hamas conflict.

I am referring to all wars where the non-combatant death loss is written off as collateral damage.

Years ago, I looked for the number of women and children killed during the Civil War.  The only information I found said the US government did not even try to tally the number of non-combatant deaths during the Civil War.

The history of our species is filled with the likes of Alexander the Great and Atilla the Hun and their armies raping and killing women.

I am infuriated, saddened and completely disgusted with the attitude that one "innocent" man might be executed when there is no end in sight at the numbers of innocent women and children who are murdered every day as men fight over money, power and territory.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.3.11  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  mocowgirl @5.3.10    9 months ago
"...as men fight over money, power and territory." 

....and those forced by others to defend themselves from horrific attacks, and what it takes to do so due to the never-ending actions of such declared terrorists.

You should finish what you have indicated above what your feelings are.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.3.12  mocowgirl  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.3.11    9 months ago
...and those forced by others to defend themselves from horrific attacks, and what it takes to do so due to the never-ending actions of such declared terrorists.

I have stated elsewhere, and I will restate - I don't know enough about what has happened since the inception of modern day Israel and what is happening in Israel to express an educated opinion except that I see no reason that it is different from any other war where men are killing one another for money, power and territory.   The lives and deaths of women and children mean nothing to these men - hence the term "collateral damage" for the innocents.

The most I know about the history of Israel is a result of watching a Yale college course on the ancient history of the people of the Bible.  

You should finish what you have indicated above what your feelings are.

I clearly stated what my feelings are about men using women and children as cannon fodder.  If you need further clarification, then ask me what you find confusing.

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
5.3.13  arkpdx  replied to  mocowgirl @5.3.12    9 months ago
I clearly stated what my feelings are about men using women and children as cannon fodder

That would be hamas doing that in this case. 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.3.14  mocowgirl  replied to  arkpdx @5.3.13    9 months ago
That would be hamas doing that in this case. 

So hamas is shooting and bombing their own women and children?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.3.15  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  sandy-2021492 @5.3.8    9 months ago

I tried to make the point that Hamas has made it impossible for Israel to defend itself other than doing what Hamas has provoked, even IMO forced Israel to do, in order to stop a continual repetition of attacks on the Israeli people.  Hamas has succeeded in its goal, I've said a few times already they've won the war of public opinion in their favour.  Because of their success they will not stop until they are stopped and for the reasons I stated above Israel has no choice but to destroy Hamas with whatever it takes to do so.  What do people expect Israel to do?  Give every man and woman a polygraph test?  The lineup would stretch from there to Seattle.  The question has been asked here about who supports Hamas.  When we stop hearing people all over the world chanting "From the river to the sea..." then I might consider lessening the universality of "supporting the underdog" even in the case where the "underdog" are vicious bloodthirsty murderers and rapists. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
5.3.16  sandy-2021492  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.3.15    9 months ago

You still accused mocowgirl of supporting people for whom she expressed no support, because of their shared ethnicity, and continue to lump in Palestinians in general with Hamas as "vicious bloodthirsty murderers and rapists".

Recognizing that there has been a huge toll among Palestinian civilians is not expressing support for Hamas.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.3.17  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  sandy-2021492 @5.3.16    9 months ago

Please point out exactly where I specifically accused mocowgirl of supporting anyone?  What I have been trying to do is explain to mocowgirl why Israel considers it necessary to carry on the campaign that they have been doing, and why it is Hamas that is responsible for the carnage. 

As for lumping Palestinians in with Hamas, in almost everything I've been reading or watching on TV the Gazans are called Palestinians.  The protesters, the demonstrators, the media in many cases do not distinguish them differently.  I do, however have reasons, personal reasons, why I'm not supportive of Palestinians generally that I've posted elsewhere, but aside from that, just as a little reminder that the West Bank Palestinians are not incapable of being not much different than Hamas, do you recognize what this image is?

bloodyhands.jpg

Do you see the blood on his hands?  Do you see the people cheering?

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
5.3.18  arkpdx  replied to  mocowgirl @5.3.14    9 months ago

No but they are using them as human shields. They are putting their bunkers and headquarters beneath schools and hospitals. 

Who was it that fired over 7000 rockets into Israel? Who attacked a music festival shooting indiscriminately? Who rushed over the border to kill men women and children ? Who killed 40 babies beheading some? Who was it that took 250 hostages?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
5.3.19  sandy-2021492  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.3.17    9 months ago
Do Americans defend the perpetrators of 9/11 as much as so many who stand up for the perpetrators of Oct 7?

We all know what that sentence meant in response to her statement about women and children being killed, Buzz.

And while objecting to the accusation of lumping Palestinians in general in with Hamas, you double down on it.

While objecting to the death penalty, you also say, in regards to killing murderers in the same manner in which they murdered

Unfortunately Israel won't be doing that to the Hamas terrorists they capture.

Why does your opposition to the death penalty have an exemption for Palestinians, according to your own words?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.3.20  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  sandy-2021492 @5.3.19    9 months ago

Touché

My opinions are often formulated from personal experiences.    

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.4  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  mocowgirl @5    9 months ago

Unfortunately Israel won't be doing that to the Hamas terrorists they capture. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6  JohnRussell    9 months ago

that'll work

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  JohnRussell @6    9 months ago

Not for me.

 
 

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