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"They have a point": Biden says of pro-Palestinian protesters

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  vic-eldred  •  3 weeks ago  •  94 comments

By:   Story by Sareen Habeshian

"They have a point": Biden says of pro-Palestinian protesters

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T




President Biden  on Tuesday responded to pro-Palestinian protesters who disrupted his speech on health care to highlight the  ongoing humanitarian crisis  in Gaza.

The big picture:  The president, who has largely stuck with Israel amid its  war with Hamas , said earlier this month that Israel's government must take the humanitarian crisis in Gaza seriously and not use aid as leverage.

  • For the first time since the October 7 attack, Biden also said he has a  "red line"  for the Israeli military operation in Gaza, indicating his patience with the Netanyahu government is thinning.

State of play:  Three protesters interrupted his speech on health care in North Carolina, yelling, "What about the health care in Gaza?"

  • "Everybody deserves health care," Biden responded from the stage.
  • The three women could be heard saying that hospitals in Gaza are being bombed and accusing Biden of being "complicit in genocide."
  • "Be patient with them," Biden said as the protesters were escorted out. "They have a point. We need to get a lot more care into Gaza."

Zoom out:  Biden announced this month that he  ordered  the U.S. military to open up a maritime route for humanitarian assistance to Gaza.

  • The plan to establish the temporary port in Gaza has been the most significant U.S. humanitarian initiative since the Israel-Hamas war began.

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Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Vic Eldred    3 weeks ago

It is a unique way to handle pro-Palestinian hecklers: Just agree with them.

This is the Biden policy.  Americans will have a chance to decide if they want to keep him in the White House.

VOTE

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
2  Sean Treacy    3 weeks ago

President talib has given her marching orders.  

now that Hamas has again rejected Biden’s proposals, he will attack Israel and demand more concessions from them and when they agree, Hamas will move the football again.  Biden is Charlie Brown being played for a fool to help Hamas, 

be nice if he spent half as much time pressuring Hamas to release hostages, on the off chance they haven’t been murdered already.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
3  Ronin2    3 weeks ago
Biden announced this month that he   ordered   the U.S. military to open up a maritime route for humanitarian assistance to Gaza.
  • The plan to establish the temporary port in Gaza has been the most significant U.S. humanitarian initiative since the Israel-Hamas war began.

I wonder if Brandon has cleared this with Bibi yet? Israeli warships dominate the Gazan coast. If they decide not to move- what then?

Even if they do decide to allow the ships to reach the Gazan port and build their massive temporary port. Who is going to move the aid from the port into Gaza? 

As strong leader would force Israel to do it; but Brandon is hardly a strong leader. 

As much as I feel for the Palestinian civilians- I do not want US military personnel or whatever aid workers they can con into distributing the aid put at risk. Neither the IDF nor Hamas (and their factions) will honor a neutral aid convoy. Given how desperate Gazans now are- even the civilians represent a threat with rioting and attacks to get resources. Guess whomever Brandon either forces or dupes into providing security for aid will find out how good of arms Gazans have. One thing Gaza has a crap load of right now is rocks and rubble in all various shapes and sizes. Wonder if any of them can remember how to cobble together a sling shot from when they were kids harassing IDF forces?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
3.1  devangelical  replied to  Ronin2 @3    3 weeks ago

ezpz. put up a mailbox at the end of the pier and tell bibi that's where his $3 billion a month aid checks will be delivered.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
3.1.1  Ronin2  replied to  devangelical @3.1    2 weeks ago

Smart thinking put starving Palestinians and US servicemen/women in the direct path of Israelis reaching US aid.

Find out how fast the IDF and Israel doesn't give a fuck about Palestinian or US lives- the same way those on board the USS Liberty did.

Hopefully Brandon's advisors are smarter than that.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
3.1.2  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Ronin2 @3.1.1    2 weeks ago
Hopefully Brandon's advisors are smarter than that.

I imagine they are.  The problem is will Biden listen to them.  He's ignored them before.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
4  Sparty On    3 weeks ago
They Have A Point

Yep,Hitler thought he had one as well.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5  Krishna    3 weeks ago

Somebody badly wants to get re-elected.

(But I'm not gonna tell you who it is ..)

Hehehe jrSmiley_40_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @5    3 weeks ago

Selling his soul to the devil if it means he can help him beat Trump at the ballot box.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1.1  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.1    3 weeks ago
Selling his soul to the devil if it means he can help him beat Trump at the ballot box.

One of the possibly most important "swing states" in the upcoming election is Michigan. Which has a large population of Muslims. They mostly vote Democratic-- but this time around they mostly won't. 

Which could be enough to shift Michigan into the Republican column this time.....

Dearborn has the largest  Muslim  population in the United States per capita and the  largest mosque  in North America

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.1.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Krishna @5.1.1    3 weeks ago
Muslims. They mostly vote Democratic-- but this time around they mostly won't. 

I never really understood single issue voters.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1.3  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @5.1.1    3 weeks ago
Dearborn has the largest  Muslim  population in the United States per capita and the  largest mosque  in North America

And this is probably un-related, but interesting:

Dearborn is best known as the home of the  Ford Motor Company , and the birthplace and hometown of its founder,  Henry Ford .

And he received an award from another government:

256

Description

Celebrating his 75th birthday, Henry Ford receives the Grand Cross of the German Eagle (highest Nazi award to a foreigner) for industrial accomplishments. It is presented by Karl Kapp, German consul at Cleveland while Fritz Heiler, German consul at Detroit shakes Ford's hand.

("Not my picture": Image provided by Getty Images).

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.1.4  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @5.1.3    3 weeks ago

"Not my picture."  jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
5.1.5  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.1    3 weeks ago

He sold it long before now.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
5.1.6  Sparty On  replied to  Krishna @5.1.3    3 weeks ago

That was 1938.    

There was Nazi youth camps in the USA back then.

Different times to be sure.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
5.1.7  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Sparty On @5.1.6    3 weeks ago

There was more than one. The German American Bund ran one on the East Coast and another one called  the Silvershirts on the West Coast.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.1.8  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Sparty On @5.1.6    3 weeks ago

Well, if that's considered extremist politics, times are really not that different now. 

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
5.1.9  Sparty On  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.1.8    3 weeks ago

Really?    

In 1938 the horrors coming from the Nazi party were not widely known yet.    They are widely known today.    Or at least they were.    And have you heard of any Nazi youth camps in existence today in the USA?

I haven’t

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.1.10  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Sparty On @5.1.9    3 weeks ago

Well, I wasn't being specific about Nazis.  Americans seem to be concerned about any kind of politics if it isn't their form of democracy.  The way things are going for them these days, maybe down the road the Republican party will be no more.  I have no crystal ball and I'm not predicting, I'm only speculating.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1.11  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.1.4    2 weeks ago
"Not my picture."  

I was wondering if anyone would see the humor in that?  jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

jrSmiley_81_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
5.1.12  Ronin2  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.1    2 weeks ago

The Palestinians are not the devil no matter how you spin it. 

There are those protestors that don't support Hamas/Hezbollah or even the PA. Yet they get lumped in with the rest.

As for sell souls- Brandon and Trump are two sides of the same coin. Both sold their souls long ago. Brandon to China/Ukraine (Russia should demand a refund from his family); illegal immigration; criminals; and the federal government and one party rule. Trump to MAGA- that is a two way soul selling. Trump and MAGA need each other to exist. And to abolishment of the Establishment.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.1.13  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.1    2 weeks ago

Did somebody just say something?  Oh, never mind, it was someone who calls Biden "Brandon", I don't pay any attention to those who think that makes what they write worth while to read. 

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
6  charger 383    3 weeks ago

  Biden said ""They have a point. We need to get a lot more care into Gaza."

Why? 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
6.1  Krishna  replied to  charger 383 @6    3 weeks ago
Why? 

Why?

So Biden can carry Michigan in the upcoming presidential election, that's why!

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
6.1.1  Sparty On  replied to  Krishna @6.1    3 weeks ago

That district is a total loss to begin with.    Any district that would elect crackpots like Tlaib, can’t be counted on to vote wisely anyway.

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
6.2  Thomas  replied to  charger 383 @6    3 weeks ago

Because many people not directly involved in the conflict are enduring tremendous hardships. 

It really isn't that difficult to understand.

Israel is not conducting a defensive operation but an offensive operation and allowing the colonization of Palestinian territory by ultra-right religious groups. These tactics would seem to ensure continued Palestinian resistance far into the future and therefore not achieving the ends expressed by the Israeli people: Peace. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
6.2.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Thomas @6.2    3 weeks ago
Because many people not directly involved in the conflict are enduring tremendous hardships. 

In every war.


It really isn't that difficult to understand.

Yup, we can all see what's going on.


Israel is not conducting a defensive operation but an offensive operation and allowing the colonization of Palestinian territory

"Colonization?"  Exactly what Hamas would call it.

Thank you.

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
6.2.2  Thomas  replied to  Vic Eldred @6.2.1    3 weeks ago

Yes, colonization of the Westbank.They are pushing out the legal residents of the areas and replacing them with people more closely aligned with fundamentalist doctrine all with the tacit approval of the Israeli government. 

Do try to keep up.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
6.2.3  Krishna  replied to  Thomas @6.2    3 weeks ago
Because many people not directly involved in the conflict are enduring tremendous hardships.

As is the case with any war...

(But my guess is-- you already knew that! jrSmiley_2_smiley_image.png )

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
6.2.4  Thomas  replied to  Krishna @6.2.3    3 weeks ago

Normally, the people in the conflict zone have the ability to leave the conflict zone and get to a space of relative safety. Unless they grow wings or fins they are trapped in place without adequate sanitation, food, or potable water. As a result, the population is facing not just displacement and hunger, but famine. 

Hamas is terrible. Israel should think well on the Nietzsche quote:

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
6.2.5  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Thomas @6.2.4    3 weeks ago
Normally, the people in the conflict zone have the ability to leave the conflict zone and get to a space of relative safety.

Hamas should let them use their tunnels, for a fee of course.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
6.2.6  charger 383  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @6.2.5    3 weeks ago

Who in their right mind would want them?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.2.7  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Thomas @6.2.4    3 weeks ago
"Hamas is terrible. Israel should think well on the Nietzsche quote:"

In most cases that may be, but when forced to fight fire with fire, as there is no other way to put out the fire, what is one to do?  Sit back and let the fire consume you - because one has to be a total fool if they don't realize that in this case that is what would happen   A good example to consider is that backfires can be necessary to fight a forest fire, are they not?

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
6.2.8  Thomas  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @6.2.7    3 weeks ago

Buzz, you tell of the times when you were in Israel and had personally experienced terrorist attacks. You also say that you wish for this violence, these seemingly random and horrific events to cease. You have stated that the way to achieve this is the total dissolution and destruction of Hamas as a government and as a group. 

How does the displacement of millions of Palestinian people in a territory roughly half the size of New York City accomplish your ultimate end, namely peace for Israelis and others in the region? How does starving the population of the region make your wish to see no more cafe` or bus bombings come any closer to realization? I don't think it makes anybody any safer. 

The way that Hamas came to power was through effectiveness. They were able to provide the people of Gaza with goods and services so they were perceived as having the best interests of the Gazans at heart. Through items as mundane as trash pickup and electrical service delivery they beat out the PA and took over Gaza. Plus they had the added benefit of promising to make the Palestinian people "free." We have seen this same bait-and-switch tactic once and again throughout history. It is playing out right here and right now in America. 

The way to achieve peace and stability is to give the Palestinian people peace and stability. Not give money to a government made of people who say they represent Palestinian interests. Feed the damn people to start with. The Israelis assumed that responsibility when they removed the Palestinians ability to acquire food on their own. Attend to their needs for healthcare. Directly, not through an intermediary. Move the people out of harm's way. 

Hamas most likely was aiming to start a regional conflict when they massacred Israelis on October 7. But they didn't. Kicking around on the total Palestinian population in a quest to squish a group of 40,000 is not going to work out. Starving them is not going to work because Hamas (as the defacto government) will always have food for its members first. All the Israelis are doing is giving the Palestinians more reasons to hate them.

All of this and more is what President Biden was relaying in his comment, "They have a point." 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
6.2.9  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Thomas @6.2.8    3 weeks ago
The way to achieve peace and stability is to give the Palestinian people peace and stability.

Give to whom?  Which Palestinians are prepared to lead Palestine?  We haven’t seen any for over 75 years.


 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.2.10  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Thomas @6.2.8    3 weeks ago

You are right with this - actions have consequences and Hamas failed to predict what the consequences would be.  As for Israel creating hatred from the Gazans and Palestinians, that already existed and will continue to exist as long as the Koran tells them to kill the Jews, and their Imams tell them that the Day of Judgment will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them (I will provide you with the links to those truths if you don't believe me.).  No matter WHAT Israel does to them - torture them, starve them or give them love and plenty of everything they could possibly wish for in their lives is not going to make any difference whatsoever.   Jews have been despised and discriminated against for millennia, which laws and sermons will never be able to change and I don't think ANYTHING will ever change it.. 

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
6.2.11  Thomas  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @6.2.9    3 weeks ago
Give to whom? 

Is this really that difficult?? To the people living in the fields and in tents and makeshift shelters. To the people who have but one shower between 8000 people. 

Although, the Israelis will have a much harder time showing that they actually give a shit one way or the other. Kind of like the US and Native Americans. We didn't really give a shit until they were basically annihilated. Genocide. Israel still has time to pull back before they go that far.   

Which Palestinians are prepared to lead Palestine?

Who gives a rat's ass who is going to lead Palestine. That question is so far in the future as to be irrelevant to the question: Who is going to feed Palestine? Who is going to provide healthcare to these people? Who is going to provide basic sanitation? Clean water? Right now it appears that the world is going to go on its merry way, "Oopsy! We are sorry, the number you have dialed says eat shit and die. Have a nice day!" or, "We are terribly sorry, but the affluent nations of the world don't think that your political gravitas is worth expending effort on convincing your affluent neighbor Israel to not just kick the shit out of you while you starve to death." 

We all need to ask ourselves if 150 hostages are worth 30 years of continued bloodshed, bombings, missile attacks and what have you. If 1200 people killed in a day will truly be avenged by more than 30,000 Palestinian lives lost. It will be precisely because of, not despite, this total disaffection of the Palestinian people that the violence will continue. Buzz's family will be no more safe than before and a whole generation or three of Palestinians will have been turned against the mere concept of an Israeli or a Jewish homeland.

This whole debacle should never have started because, once started, there was only one way the characters in this play could behave because they are all constrained by perception of perception: They "had to do it" because it was the expected thing to do. These are not leaders in the remotest sense. They all follow a script of how to react. Netanyahu cannot break out of the roles that he feels expected to play. Israel and her armies, as a result of this lack of leadership ability, have to follow along down the path of guaranteeing 30 or 40 more years of violence. Brilliant. Just fucking brilliant.

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
6.2.12  Thomas  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @6.2.10    3 weeks ago
You are right with this - actions have consequences and Hamas failed to predict what the consequences would be.  

As far as the Israeli response, I think their response has gone perfectly along the lines of what Hamas thought it would. I feel that they did not get the support from other countries that they thought they would. I think that they wanted to kick off a great holy war. 

Religions should be banished to the dustbins of history. If one needs to pray to something, go out in the yard and pick up a rock. Call it God or Allah or Vishnu or WhatHaveYou or Fred and pray to it. One will then be venerating a piece of the earth. Listen to it for guidance. If one hears anything, check oneself into the psychiatric hospital.

I know, wishes in one hand....what did I do with the toilet paper?

 No matter WHAT Israel does to them - torture them, starve them or give them love and plenty of everything they could possibly wish for in their lives is not going to make any difference whatsoever.

I think you underestimate the capacity of human kindness. And, to be perfectly honest, all Palestinians are not the Muslim extremist type. They cannot all be. Hell, some of them are Jewish or Christian. 

Jews have been despised and discriminated against for millennia, which laws and sermons will never be able to change and I don't think ANYTHING will ever change it.. 

If you think it will never change then it will never change for you. Open yourself to the possibility that not everyone is a pig-headed fundamentalist. Jews and Muslims seem to get along fine in other countries where they are not secluded and people are more tolerant of differences. Some people aren't, screw them. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.2.13  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Thomas @6.2.12    3 weeks ago

I know that not all Muslims are monsters.  For a few years I was the Director of Development for the Canadian Friends of Laniado Hospital (an Orthodox, but not an EXTREMIST Orthodox hospital) in Netanya, and I was sent there to tour the hospital and converse with the staff.  It was a few days after the "Passover Massacre" when an Arab Muslim suicide bomber entered the reception room of the Park Hotel in Netanya where a large gathering of families was holding a Passover Seder, and he blew up the room.  I saw the destruction - they had already removed the bodies and wounded of course.  Many of the doctors, nurses and administrative staff at that hospital, where many of the wounded were taken were Muslim Arabs, and when I spoke to them they were in tears, genuine tears, about the horrors that they had to deal with.  During Jewish Holy holidays the Arab Muslim staff are totally trusted to take care of the hospital and patients - they were good people, and I have great respect for them.  So I know that not all Arab Muslims in Israel are monsters, but I do not know any there who are not Israeli citizens. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
6.2.14  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Thomas @6.2.11    3 weeks ago
Is this really that difficult?? To the people living in the fields and in tents and makeshift shelters. To the people who have but one shower between 8000 people. 

These people are now multi-generational, professional refugees.  

We are terribly sorry, but the affluent nations of the world don't think that your political gravitas is worth expending effort on convincing your affluent neighbor Israel to not just kick the shit out of you while you starve to death." 

We are terribly sorry but we've grown tired your 70 + years of starting wars and intermittent terrorism.  Billions and billions of dollars have been given to you and you allowed Yasser Arafat, Mahmoud Abbas, Ismail Haniyeh and their cronies to steal it.

We all need to ask ourselves if 150 hostages are worth 30 years of continued bloodshed.

What makes you think that the bloodshed would end if Israel hadn't attacked Hamas in Gaza?

If 1200 people killed in a day will truly be avenged by more than 30,000 Palestinian lives lost

Don't the Palestinians always demand about an 8 for 1 in prisoner swaps? The seam to understand that it takes multiple Palestinians to equal one Israeli.

Israel and her armies, as a result of this lack of leadership ability, have to follow along down the path of guaranteeing 30 or 40 more years of violence. 

Given the history, why would any Israeli trust the Palestinians who chant From the River to the Sea, that phrase isn't just about real estate.

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
6.2.15  Thomas  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @6.2.14    3 weeks ago
Given the history, why would any Israeli trust the Palestinians who chant From the River to the Sea, that phrase isn't just about real estate.

Because you have to give them reason not to chant that instead of more reason to chant that.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
6.2.16  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Thomas @6.2.15    3 weeks ago
Because you have to give them reason not to chant that instead of more reason to chant that.

I don't have to give shit to professional refugees, what have they earned, certainly not ability to govern themselves.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.2.17  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Thomas @6.2.15    2 weeks ago

I'm beginning to get the feeling that you believe that if the allies had been kind to Adolph Hitler and his Nazi buddies like Eichmann and Mengele they would have become our friends instead of our enemies. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
6.2.18  Krishna  replied to  Thomas @6.2.4    2 weeks ago
Normally, the people in the conflict zone have the ability to leave the conflict zone and get to a space of relative safety

If Israel won't let them leave via Israel's border with Gaza,why don't they leave via their border with Egypt?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
6.2.19  Krishna  replied to  Thomas @6.2.11    2 weeks ago
This whole debacle should never have started because, once started, there was only one way the characters in this play could behave because they are all constrained by perception of perception: They "had to do it"

Are you aware of what Israel was doing before Octber 7th:

Israel previously issued more than 18,000 permits allowing Gazans to cross into Israel and the Israeli-occupied West Bank to take jobs in sectors like agriculture or construction that typically carried salaries up to 10 times what a worker could earn in the blockaded Gaza Strip.

But then, suddenly, they ended that policy,

Why?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.2.20  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @6.2.19    2 weeks ago

And what about those Gazans, INCLUDING the family of Hamas leaders, who required more sophisticated medical treatment than they could get at Gaza hospitals being permitted access to Israeli hospitals?  Up until then, was Israel stopping food, medicines, electricity and fuels from entering Gaza?  NO THEY WERE NOT!!!! Was Israel bombing or firing on Gaza?  NO, because there was a cease-fire in effect.  BUT AFTER ALL, THE KORAN SAYS TO THE TRUE BELIEVERS THAT THEY MUST KILL THE JEWS, AND THEIR IMAMS TELL THEM THAT THE DAY OF JUDGMENT WILL NOT COME UNTIL THE MUSLIMS FIGHT AND KILL THE JEWS AND SO HAMAS MUST DO WHAT IT CAN TO COMPLY AND KILL AS MANY JEWS AS IT CAN.  But those live infant-roasting, teenager-raping, eye-gouging murdering monsters who shoot civilians in their beds are defended and supported by the UN and so many nations and the bleeding heart protesters and demonstrators, aren't they?   Why, cause after all, it's all the fault of those fucking Jews, eh?

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
6.2.21  Thomas  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @6.2.16    2 weeks ago
I don't have to give shit to professional refugees, what have they earned, certainly not ability to govern themselves.

[Deleted] [] that is the attitude that perpetuates the violence.

These "professional refugees" have not been afforded the right to self-government. The last election in Gaza was in 2006. Hamas has not allowed any since.

And who are you to claim that they don't have the "ability to govern themselves"? What, are they lesser people? Are they not also created equal? Or is the facade of the Ministry of Truth wearing a thin, perhaps along the lines of All Animals are Created Equal, but some are more equal than others...?

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
6.2.22  Thomas  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @6.2.17    2 weeks ago
I'm beginning to get the feeling that you believe that if the allies had been kind to Adolph Hitler and his Nazi buddies like Eichmann and Mengele they would have become our friends instead of our enemies. 

Why on earth would I think that? 

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
6.2.23  Thomas  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @6.2.20    2 weeks ago
But those live infant-roasting, teenager-raping, eye-gouging murdering monsters who shoot civilians in their beds are defended and supported by the UN and so many nations and the bleeding heart protesters and demonstrators, aren't they?

No, they are not. No one that I know defends the actions of Hamas. They are atrocities. It is the inseparability of Hamas as an organization from the Palestinian people as a whole by Israel and its supporters that causes me the most concern. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
6.2.24  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Thomas @6.2.23    2 weeks ago
No one that I know defends the actions of Hamas.

From the river to the sea.

It is the inseparability of Hamas as an organization from the Palestinian people as a whole by Israel and its supporters that causes me the most concern. 

How should Israel separate the Palestinian people from the PLO, Hamas, etc.?  What would make you sleep better in Israel?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.2.25  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Thomas @6.2.22    2 weeks ago
"I'm beginning to get the feeling that you believe that if the allies had been kind to Adolph Hitler and his Nazi buddies like Eichmann and Mengele they would have become our friends instead of our enemies."  "Why on earth would I think that?" 

Because you said this...

"Because you have to give them reason not to chant..."

How much does it take?  How many times have they been offered their own State, and turned it down?  I have seen that the reason they have turned 95% and then 97% of what they demanded, but the part that they WOULD NOT AGREE WITH, was that they had to recognize the sovereignty and entitlement of a Jewish State of Israel.  

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.2.26  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Thomas @6.2.23    2 weeks ago

Well, then why don't you give a try to separate the criminals from the peaceful civilians when the criminals, contrary to the recognized laws of war, hide themselves among the civilians and use them as human shields and the Palestinian government REWARDS the "peaceful" Palestinians who kill Jews, even support their families if the terrorists are killed (with the money donated to the Palestinians, some of which is through UNRWA, achieved through the taxes that YOU pay your government).  And who is to prove that the "peaceful" civilians DON'T support the Hamas militants and Islamic Jihad terrorists and the Palestinian "martyrs" who kill Jews?

Just to let you know, I might be a major supporter of Israel, but I'm sick about the IDF having killed the 7 World Central Kitchen workers.

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
6.2.27  Thomas  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @6.2.24    2 weeks ago

I sleep well.

How should Israel separate the Palestinian people from the PLO, Hamas, etc.?

Ask them if they want food and a place to sleep? From  The Road to October 7: Hamas’ Long Game, Clarified

Looking back at the Hamas governance project in Gaza, it is clear the group remained committed to engaging in terrorist activity, and indeed it prioritized militancy over other activities at the expense of the Gaza Strip’s civilian population. Never co-opted, Hamas invested in efforts to inculcate its ideal of violent resistance against Israel throughout its time governing Gaza, and played a long game lulling Israeli and Western leaders into thinking it could be deterred with periodic nods to moderation. Meanwhile, it built tunnels and weapons production facilities, trained operatives, and prepared for the day it could finally act on its commitment to destroying Israel. As Hamas politburo member Khalil al-Hayya noted in the wake of the October 7 attack, “Hamas’s goal is not to run Gaza and to bring it water and electricity and such. Hamas, the Qassam and the resistance woke the world up from its deep sleep and showed that this issue must remain on the table.” 107   Al-Hayya aptly summed up the relative weight Hamas gives to addressing the needs of Palestinians and fighting Israel. Referring to the October 7 attack, he explained: “This battle was not because we wanted fuel or laborers. It did not seek to improve the situation in Gaza. This battle is to completely overthrow the situation.” Hamas’ attack was designed to elicit a “disproportionate” response from Israel. While several Israeli leaders have said the stated war objectives is the destruction Hamas, such an operation cannot be done by military force alone. Rather, what the war appears to be about is ending Hamas’ governance project in Gaza. What comes next for the group is largely dependent on how the war goes. Most of Hamas’ leadership remains, Israelis are still being held hostage in Gaza, and the scale of Israel’s response could serve to radicalize a new generation. As Hamas leader Haniyeh said in the days after Israel began its retaliatory attacks on Gaza that have resulted in thousands of deaths, “[w]e are the ones who need this blood, so it awakens within us the revolutionary spirit, so it awakens within us resolve, so it awakens within us the spirit of challenge, and [pushes us] to move forward.” 108   Questions remain about what is next for Hamas. While true supporters of Hamas will see the October 7 attacks as a victory, many in Gaza will see the attacks as a betrayal of Hamas’ governance promise.  

I am in no way operating under the delusion that Hamas is anything but a religion-based terrorist organization. While there is no foolproof way of identifying members of Hamas, if Israelis began with asking the people living in tents and haphazard shelters with little to eat or drink and no sanitation if they would like a shower and a meal that might be a good place to start. 

I would like to see all the religions of the world stop acting like they have the singular key to life, death, and the meaning thereof. I would like to see people in power not act like big dickheads and treat others differently than they would have themselves treated. I would like to see no nations based on religion. But then I wake up and realize that is all unachievable, as is the Israeli's expressed wish to totally destroy Hamas or Hamas's expressed intent to eradicate the Israeli state. These competing attitudes and expressed desires will never be realized but will be used nonetheless as a Siren Song to those people who find themselves in positions of both power and want. 

So I ask myself: How to change the structure, shift the paradigm to break the cycle of killing, the seemingly endless parade of stupid actions taken by people with the scent of power in their nostrils? Start at the bottom and work your way up? Gahndi, Rev. King made great strides with non-violent protest. I don't know the answers to all the problems. Nobody does. But I do know that killing begets more killing and to stop the killing we have to talk with each other and work things out.  

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
6.2.28  Thomas  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @6.2.25    2 weeks ago
How much does it take?  

It takes dealing in good faith by both sides to reach a workable and lasting agreement. It also takes authority derived from the people. 

Practically, I think a secular education and governmental structure would be a starting place. Set the rules and functions of the government with the stipulation that the government exists to serve and guarantee the populace as individuals and not any one group over another. 

And to be perfectly honest, I don't think any state should have theocratic underpinnings and I don't think that religion should exist anymore. From my point of view, religion causes more problems than it solves. But that is just my opinion and it will disappear long before religion has.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.2.29  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Thomas @6.2.27    2 weeks ago
"...to stop the killing we have to talk with each other and work things out."

ANYONE with an IQ over 80 has to realize that that is NOT going to happen with an extremist religious terrorist group that is COMMANDED, as written in the Koran, to kill the Jews, and whose IMAMs tell them that The Day of Judgment will never come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them.    

ANYONE with an IQ over 80 who has read the treatise you linked above would understand why it is almost impossible for the Israelis to separate the militants from the radicalized so-called "innocents" who support the militants and their goals, BECAUSE THEY DO.  

And who do you think are the teachers who continue the radicalization of the children, teaching them to hate and to fight and HOW to fight their "oppressors" the Israelis?  UNRWA teachers immerse the children with the Hamas ideology, and the fucking useless most anti-Semitic organization in the world, the United Nations DEFENDS them and disagrees that UNRWA, the organization that has maintained generation after generation after generation of Palestinian "refugees" that have NEVER nor will they EVER become independent as ANY other nation of grownups has been able to do is COMPLICIT in causing this bloodshed.  Why doesn't the UN tell Hamas to surrender, to end the bloodshed, to facilitate aid distribution, to start the rebuilding of Gaza?  Ever wonder why?  BECAUSE THAT FUCKING BASTARD ORGANIZATION THE UN HATES THE JEWS AND SUPPORTS THE TERRORISTS. 

Mistakes are made in war, and collateral damage happens and those involved in the bombings of Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Tokyo well know as all we who are grownups know, and Israel has unfortunately made some bad mistakes such as killing the hostages who were waving a white flag and stripped to the waist to show they were not militants, or the 7 Kitchen workers (and both of those incidents horrify me), and I'm sure Hamas is rejoicing for those incidents as those things help to further their propaganda war, that they have already won, even having won some on this very Social News Site. 

But make no mistake, I WILL NEVER GIVE UP MY BELIEF IN AND SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL, no matter HOW much "reason" is flung at me.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.2.30  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Thomas @6.2.28    2 weeks ago
"It takes dealing in good faith by both sides to reach a workable and lasting agreement. It also takes authority derived from the people." 

And anyone who believes that that could possibly happen in this case belongs in a padded cell dressed in a straight jacket. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.2.31  JohnRussell  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @6.2.29    2 weeks ago

This is an utter disaster for Israel's image.   José Andrés  was incredibly harsh on Israel today. 

www.usatoday.com   /story/news/world/2024/04/03/jose-andres-world-central-kitchen-workers-killed-gaza/73185006007/

Death of Jose Andres' World Central Kitchen crew marks a new low in Gaza war, aid workers say

8-10 minutes


Chef José Andrés said Wednesday that Israeli forces had targeted a World Central Kitchen convoy in the Gaza Strip "systematically, car by car," killing seven aid workers, including one American, as the White House said it wanted to see “accountability” for the attack. 

The   deaths of the World Central Kitchen staffers   on Monday wasn't the first time humanitarians have been killed in the Israel-Hamas war. But this attack killed foreigners, provoking a notable response.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu apologized in a video, promising an independent investigation, and Israel's military expressed “severe sorrow.”   President Joe Biden   placed a condolence phone call to Andrés, and the White House said he was “outraged” by the attack.

Humanitarian experts said the deaths were all the more striking because World Central Kitchen was known among aid groups both for its caution and its close coordination with the Israeli military in delivering aid.

Israel even helped Andrés’ group build a jetty on   Gaza’s Mediterranean seafront   to bring food by ship into Gaza. 

If World Central Kitchen – run by an internationally respected celebrity chef, boasting a formidable relationship with the Israeli Defense Forces, operating on a “deconflicted” route arranged with the military – can be attacked, observers say, then anyone in Gaza can.

“What this incident shows us is the IDF’s total disregard for the protection of civilians in Gaza,” former National Security Council spokesman Tommy Vietor said in an interview.

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Waning support among Americans for Israel's Gaza war

The attack on World Central Kitchen workers comes as some recent polls show fading American support for Israel's war in Gaza. A Gallup survey published late last month shows approval for the war falling from 50% in November to 36% in March,   with 55% now disapproving .

"It makes Biden's position even more difficult," said Hank Sheinkopf, a veteran Democratic political consultant. "It will create panic among Democrats who are worried about losing younger voters and African Americans who have expressly called for a cease-fire."

A history of attacks on humanitarian workers

More than 200 aid workers, the vast majority of them Palestinians, have been killed in Israeli airstrikes and gunfire since the war started with Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack on Israel, U.S. officials say.

Israeli forces have fired on or bombed   approved aid convoys , shelters located   in designated safe zones , hospitals, and   an American aid group’s staff residence .

None of these incidents, though, inspired anything like the Israeli and U.S. government response to the deaths of the World Central Kitchen workers.

The World Center Kitchen team was killed by three missile strikes from an Israeli attack drone while driving on a designated route they had cleared with the Israeli Defense Force.

The Biden administration has decried the ever-mounting civilian and humanitarian deaths in Gaza, where the Hamas-run health ministry says a stunning 32,000 people have been killed, while continuing to supply Israel with arms. Israel blames Hamas for the death toll, saying that it operates and hides in civilian areas.

A 'glaring' atrocity

Monday’s strike was different. 

“It was a very quick response,” Tania Hary, executive director of Gisha, an Israeli human rights organization, said of Netanyahu’s apology. “I don’t know that they had a choice. It was so glaring.”

“You’ve got humanitarian workers being killed and they worked for an organization run by a very high-profile person,” Jeremy Konyndyk, president of Refugees International, told USA TODAY. ''They finally found a victim they couldn’t blame.”

José Andrés: 'More of an aid worker than a celebrity'

José Andrés owns   more than a dozen restaurants across the U.S., stars in a travel and cooking TV series and has been awarded the National Humanities Medal for the work of World Central Kitchen, which provides food for victims of catastrophes across the globe.

In the cast of globally recognized do-gooders, the Spanish chef is compared with Nobel Peace Prize-winner Malala Yousafai and climate change activist Greta Thunberg. World Central Kitchen has supplied more than 350 million meals at disaster sites around the world.

“In recent years he’s been much more of an aid worker than a celebrity,” said Konyndyk, who served in humanitarian roles in the Biden and Obama administrations. 

It was Andrés' image as a guardian angel for survivors of war and calamity that forced the U.S. and Israeli governments to speak out, Konyndyk said.

“Jose is a beloved human being,” Vietor said. “He’s well known in Washington, with a direct line to the president.”

73177115007-2083968522.jpg?width=660&height=441&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp

'As if they were being hunted'

Monday’s tragedy underscores months of prior Israeli attacks on humanitarian workers and shows how the U.S. has failed to persuade Israel to ensure the safety of civilians and aid workers, experts said. 

World Central Kitchen said its workers, traveling in three vehicles – two of them clearly marked with the group’s logo – were targeted as they left a warehouse in the central Gaza city of Deir al-Balah after dropping off food that had recently arrived from Cyprus.

Andres told Reuters the attack wasn’t merely a "bad luck situation where, 'oops,' we dropped the bomb in the wrong place." 

"Even if we were not in coordination with the IDF, no democratic country and no military can be targeting civilians and humanitarians," he said.

73190971007-zomi-thumb.jpg?width=660&height=372&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp

“It was a series of three attacks in succession,” Hary said. “It was almost as if they were being hunted while they tried to escape.” 

Israel said its forces mistakenly identified the convoy as hostile.

“It’s indicative of a pattern of permissive rules of engagement and a willingness to conduct war in a way that doesn’t protect civilians or humanitarians,” Hary said. 

The only surprise, Konyndyk said, was that Westerners weren't killed sooner. "Humanitarians have been screaming about this for six months," he said of the unsafe conditions for aid workers. "It was only a matter of time − and time ran out."

'Unconscionable,' says Cindy McCain

World Central Kitchen suspended its operations in devastated northern Gaza, where the U.N. World Food Program says one out of every three children below the age of two "is now acutely malnourished or 'wasted.'"

"It's unconscionable," WFP Director-General Cindy McCain said on CNN. "This has to stop. We need to get food in, to the north especially, to stave off famine."

On Tuesday, Secretary of State Antony Blinken called for an “impartial investigation” into the drone strikes. 

"We shouldn't have a situation where people who are simply trying to help their fellow human beings are themselves at grave risk," he added.

73187908007-afp-2123636851.jpg?width=660&height=441&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp

White House waits for 'accountability'

It was unclear whether the deaths of the World Central Kitchen team would impact Israel’s conduct in Gaza or American support for its top Middle East ally. “Whether this has any real effect depends on President Biden,” Konyndyk said.

On Wednesday, National Security Council spokesman John Kirby said the administration would monitor Israel's investigation.

"We need to see what they learn and we need to see, just as importantly, what they do about what they learn − what changes they're willing to make, what accountability they're willing to observe," Kirby told reporters. "We're just not there yet."

73177122007-2084796749-1.jpg?crop=5999,3375,x0,y312&width=660&height=372&format=pjpg&auto=webp

For now, the attack may have drawn Americans’ attention back to the Gaza war as the conflict approaches its sixth month. 

“Often these things get lost in the news cycle,” said Erick Sanchez, a public relations consultant who volunteered with Andres and World Central Kitchen after Hurricane Ida struck New Orleans in 2021. “When we see tragedy unfolding in his organization, it gives us the ability to see the need to bring peace to innocent civilians.”

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
6.2.32  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JohnRussell @6.2.31    2 weeks ago
This is an utter disaster for Israel's image.   José Andrés  was incredibly harsh on Israel today.

It’s long past time for Israel to relook the trade space between international image and national security.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.2.33  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  JohnRussell @6.2.31    2 weeks ago

What was your purpose in directing that to me?  I've already posted more than once that I'm sick about what the IDF did, not only to the Kitchen workers but to the hostages who waved a white flag at them.  Even if you were to stand on your head or cry your eyes out you're not going to change my feelings and support for Israel.

OIP-C.ovqKS5_VA54aM2HKnsH2pAHaIp?rs=1&pid=ImgDetMain

I hope, JR, that in order to not appear as a hypocrite, that you have the same feelings for the innocent people of Israel who were tortured, raped and massacred by Hamas, and the same feelings for the innocent people of Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Tokyo, THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF THEM, WHERE THE MILITANTS WERE NOT HIDING AMONG THE CIVILIANS as you have for those who actually ARE innocent in Gaza.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.2.34  JohnRussell  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @6.2.33    2 weeks ago

I directed it to you because you need to hear it. 

Its almost at the point now where its too late for Israel to repair its image. I really hope thats not true. 

They should have paused this war a long time ago. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
6.2.35  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JohnRussell @6.2.34    2 weeks ago
Its almost at the point now where its too late for Israel to repair its image.

Their doesn’t suffer as much when Palestinians are killing Israelis.  The work doesn’t mind dead Jews so much.

They have a difficult trade off analysis to conduct.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.2.36  JohnRussell  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @6.2.35    2 weeks ago

Israel could have had the sympathy of most of the world, but they had to bomb Gaza for six months. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.2.37  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  JohnRussell @6.2.34    2 weeks ago

It is fucking well obvious I heard it and I resent the fact that you felt you had to hit me over the head with it and shove it in my face.  But just as Israel will NEVER give up, neither will I - I'm not a 'bleeding heart" for terrorists. 

R-C.ace437552d702547709b936ce0184cd8?rik=rpGaUBQwZgiDzg&riu=http%3a%2f%2fgetdrawings.com%2fimage%2fbleeding-heart-flower-drawing-54.jpg&ehk=72SBsRgnBA6EjKsevXdNMokP3tRJOar9AlW8b%2bLQxA4%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
6.2.38  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JohnRussell @6.2.36    2 weeks ago
Israel could have had the sympathy of most of the world,

How long did that sympathy last after the Yom Kippur War, the Lebanon War, First Intifada, Second Intifada, Third Intifada?

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
6.2.39  Thomas  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @6.2.29    one week ago
ANYONE with an IQ over 80 has to realize that that is NOT going to happen with an extremist religious terrorist group that is COMMANDED, as written in the Koran, to kill the Jews, and whose IMAMs tell them that The Day of Judgment will never come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them. 

Which is why we need to do away with revealed religion. Religionists all say they have "The Way" to whatever it is they are pushing. That would be fine if they didn't have stipulations based on ancient hatreds of other groups of people. Pray to a rock or a tree, a waterfall or nebula, but the second that someone says to go out and kill someone because they are different - walk away.

But make no mistake, I WILL NEVER GIVE UP MY BELIEF IN AND SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL, no matter HOW much "reason" is flung at me.Your support of the Israeli government's actions via the IDF 

That comment shows unreasoned intractability. 

Really, Buzz, instead of thinking with your heart, take a step back and review the situation. When Hamas brutally attacked Israel on October 7th, the intended purpose of that attack was to prompt the exact scenario that occurred: 1) calling down the wrath of the IDF and its supporters with 2) the eventual instigation of a larger-scale war that 3) would achieve Hamas's stated goal to make everybody Muslim or dead. Well, we all know that last part isn't going to happen. But we also know the actions of Israel have ensured hate and ill-will on the part of a much greater number of people and nations, and that realistically guarantees the continued terroristic activities that you have said you want to be stopped.  So are you any closer to achieving your stated goal? Is Hamas any closer to achieving its goal? Certainly, the IDF is closer to its goal, but at what cost?

When this has all settled out, I believe that we will look back and see a whole lot of dead bodies and no major situational change. Even if the hardliners in Isreal get the assimilation of the Gaza Strip and West Bank wholly as Israeli territory, there will be no peace and why? Because of unreasoned intractability. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
6.2.40  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Thomas @6.2.39    one week ago
Which is why we need to do away with revealed religion.

Are you thinking Constitutional Amendment? 

would achieve Hamas's stated goal to make everybody Muslim or dead.

They think that Israelis may convert?

What should Israel have done after Yom Kippur War, Lebanese War, 3 Intifadas and 7 Oct?

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
6.2.41  Thomas  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @6.2.40    one week ago
Are you thinking Constitutional Amendment? 

No more than you are serious in your suggestion of it. Religion is inextricably intertwined with governments and people. I realize that revealed religion will be around far longer than my short existence. Too-bad, though. The removal of people's blinders regarding religion would go far in removing their dislike of others. Religions are many more made-up stories that we wouldn't have to deal with. Then we would have to deal with politicians and their made-up stories.

They think that Israelis may convert?

Of course not. Whatever would you say that for? Although, given the choice of convert or die, I know that my instinct for self preservation is stronger than my will to follow a religion of a specific sort, as may be the case for many others. One religious zealot is as bad as another.

What should Israel have done after Yom Kippur War, Lebanese War, 3 Intifadas and 7 Oct?

I have no control over the actions of Israel, I have even less control over past actions. That said, I thnk that they were on the right track with the Oslo Accords and actually had some momentum going in a positive direction.

His words carried extra weight because of his own history. He was a soldier turned politician, a commander in the founding 1948 conflict Israelis call the War of Independence; the victorious chief of staff in  the 1967 war  Israelis saw as a miraculous deliverance from extinction at the hands of three neighbouring Arab states; and a serial defence minister famed as “Mr Security”. Rabin was no dove: in 1988, he had ordered Israeli troops to put down the first intifada by  breaking the bones  of stone-throwing Palestinian protesters. But as the uprising dragged on, his position slowly evolved: he came to see Palestinian resistance not as a military threat to be crushed, but as a political grievance requiring resolution. When the Oslo talks suggested broad agreement might be possible, he faced a choice: to keep fighting or find a different way.

So Rabin chose the other way. Too bad that a far-right nationalist killed him in cold blood. He may have been the last person with the credible associations to be prime minister who could have lead Israel out of the cyclic violence. We shall never know. 

Going forward, they need to remove the refugees from Gaza. This means bussing, housing, and feeding these people in a non-conflict zone.  They also need to cease settlement of the West Bank and halt settler violence towards the indigenous population. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
6.2.42  CB  replied to  charger 383 @6.2.6    one week ago

Wow. I can't believe this; but now I have no choice but to believe it.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
6.2.43  CB  replied to  Thomas @6.2.12    one week ago
Jews and Muslims seem to get along fine in other countries where they are not secluded and people are more tolerant of differences.

It is quite awesome that Israelis and Palestinians do not harm each other more often in the 'West.' It signifies that it is something about their common locations in the Middle East that repels them both.

The problem between these "cousins" is they have let their issues overwhelm a fact that they are familial folks-through blood. They forget that they live in a place historically called, "the Holy land" and what that alone signifies.

And finally, they each forget that their "generations" are living in fear with a dark cloud of doom over their heads because of perpetual wars. It's no way to live a life of sixty or seventy (or more) years.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.2.44  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Thomas @6.2.39    one week ago
"...there will be no peace and why? 

Nobody knows, because only time will tell.  Much has still to happen.

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
6.2.45  Thomas  replied to  CB @6.2.43    one week ago

And finally, they each forget that their "generations" are living in fear with a dark cloud of doom over their heads because of perpetual wars. It's no way to live a life of sixty or seventy (or more) years.

It is largely the politicians' fault. And, of course, religion, because the two go hand in hand in the land of theocracy. 

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
6.3  Ronin2  replied to  charger 383 @6    2 weeks ago

I am all for more aid getting into Gaza.

I am not for the US being involved in any way, shape, or form. Putting US servicemen/women lives at risk is a non starter; along with any aid workers the Brandon administration can con into distributing the aid inland.

Israel and Hamas caused this mess- they can figure out how to get the aid and distribute it. 

Unfortunately a good portion of the Gazan population will die of starvation, exposure, and lack of medical care before then. But that is the cost of war between two intractable fascist entities that don't give a fuck about human lives outside of their own.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
6.3.1  charger 383  replied to  Ronin2 @6.3    2 weeks ago

Hamas and it's supporters caused the mess and fully deserve what they get for it. 

Have they ever done anything to help us?  NO!  All they do is cause problems

I don't like my tax money being given to the enemy. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.3.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Ronin2 @6.3    2 weeks ago
"Israel and Hamas caused this mess- they can figure out how to get the aid and distribute it."

I'm surprised you don't claim it was the UN that caused it back in the 1940s.  You should disagree with that.  Or maybe the Martians did it.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
7  charger 383    3 weeks ago

Hamas is the enemy and Gaza is enemy held territory 

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
7.1  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  charger 383 @7    3 weeks ago

Hamas is the enemy, Palestinians are the ones that voted them into the position they are in.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
7.1.1  Krishna  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @7.1    2 weeks ago
Palestinians are the ones that voted them into the position they are in.

Elections in Arab countries are a joke. (Saddam Hussein used to have elections regularly-- and he always won with 100% of the vote. No one ever voted against him. Why?)

But the election that put Hamas in power was unusual. There were (reputable) foreign observers. And it was actually a fair election. The people elected Hamas.

(but not for the reason you might think)

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
7.1.2  Ronin2  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @7.1    2 weeks ago

The election yielded  a shock victory for Hamas , which won the most seats with some 44 percent of the vote. Lara Friedman, president of the Foundation for Middle East Peace, which advocates for rapprochement and peace between Israelis and Palestinians,  recently observed  that in no single district in Gaza did Hamas win a majority of votes. At present, children make up roughly half of Gaza’s population, meaning only a fraction of the territory’s current population ever cast a ballot for Hamas.

Hamas hardly won in a landslide. They couldn't even get the majority of votes; and most of their population couldn't even vote. The PA candidates split the votes. 

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
8  Right Down the Center    3 weeks ago

Joes support of Israel is one of the few things I agreed with him on.  I should have known it wouldn't last.  Antisemites have taken over the party.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
8.1  Krishna  replied to  Right Down the Center @8    2 weeks ago
Antisemites have taken over the party.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Maybe he just wants to get re-elected, and if the election is close winning Michigan would be crucial And he that:

According to the 2010 U.S. census, the city with the largest percentage of Arab Americans is Dearborn, Michigan, a southwestern suburb of Detroit, at nearly 40%.

And more Arabs and Muslims live in nearby areas....

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
9  Nerm_L    3 weeks ago

Joe Biden must realize the window for him to fuck things up is closing.  Biden's political career has been marked (or marred) by attempts to create conflict and to escalate conflict.  Joe Biden has never been a peacemaker.

What's notable is that aid has begun entering Gaza in larger amounts last week.  Hamas has to take advantage of the situation while it can still make claims of a humanitarian crisis.  Surely Biden is aware that he promised to build a sea port for the purpose of delivering that aid.  Well, that started last week.  Why is Biden trying to throw gas onto the conflict instead of taking credit for solving a humanitarian crisis?  Because that's the way Biden rolls; Biden wants to be a Corn Pop warrior instead of a peacemaker.

  Sea borne aid deliveries began last week.  Israel has begun allowing more trucks into nothern Gaza.  The IDF is also delivering some aid. 

Also note that the unbiased liberal media has resorted to calling the situation in Gaza the '5 month Israeli offensive'.  The neoliberals simply cannot admit that their pet Palestinians are vicious, uncivilized barbarians who are responsible for what has happened.  The self aggrandizing neoliberal outrage has become so blatant that the western press are now little more than sponsors of terror.  Neoliberals, like Biden, don't even have the balls to be dictators; they must rely on terrorists to do their dirty work for them.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
9.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Nerm_L @9    3 weeks ago

Besides by sea and by land trucks aid has been coming from airdrops but according to the Hamas reports the children are starving and dying of malnutrition and people there is a mounting humanitarian crisis.  Hamas knows it has already won the propaganda war so why would it stop with its bullshit now?

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
9.1.1  Kavika   replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.1    2 weeks ago

 Chef Andres and the World Kitchen in March took on the task of bringing in food and serving millions of meals. This was worked out with the top Israeli government officials and they met in Abu Dhabi which financed much of this relief. Safe corridors were established and everyone was aware the first barge landed in Gaza and was about 1/ 4 unloaded a caravan of World Kitchen vehicles was loaded and started to move away from the barge all the vans were marked as World Kitchen when the first missile hit, the volunteers in that van got out and ran to one of the other vans and it was hit as was the third killing seven of the volunteers. 

Chef Andres has been a godsend to many disasters around the world, and now the group that could do what no other could has pulled out, the first time for them doing that. All aid groups are now gone. 

Sadly, the beat goes on.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
9.1.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Kavika @9.1.1    2 weeks ago

As I said above...

"Just to let you know, I might be a major supporter of Israel, but I'm sick about the IDF having killed the 7 World Central Kitchen workers."
 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
9.1.3  Kavika   replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.1.2    2 weeks ago

Yes, I know you did Buzz. Now there are none left in Gaza.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.2  Krishna  replied to  Nerm_L @9    2 weeks ago
iden's political career has been marked (or marred) by attempts to create conflict and to escalate conflict.

Well, I guess there's at least one thing we can be grateful for-- Donald Trump (Peace Be Upon Him of course) has never, and would never, do anything like that!

Create conflict? 

And worse yet, once its created-- actually escalate it?

Don't be silly!

(Fun Fact: He's actually a Bible salesman-- in fact his favorite book is The Bible)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.2.1  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @9.2    2 weeks ago
Fun Fact: He's actually a Bible salesman-- in fact his favorite book is The Bible)

Don't believe me? Well then, find Two Corinthians* and they'll back him up!

-------------------

*You don't have to be too picky-- any Two Corinthians, selected at random, will do!

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
9.2.2  Nerm_L  replied to  Krishna @9.2    2 weeks ago
Well, I guess there's at least one thing we can be grateful for-- Donald Trump (Peace Be Upon Him of course) has never, and would never, do anything like that!

Donald Trump is a fucking piece of dog shit that can't be scraped off the boot.  That doesn't change the truth that the US dodged a bullet by electing Trump instead of Clinton and doesn't change the fact the Trump is a better choice than Joe Biden.

Trump sets the bar about as low as it can go.  Joe Biden can't even get over that low bar.  Biden ain't better than a fucking piece of dog shit.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
9.3  Ronin2  replied to  Nerm_L @9    2 weeks ago
admit that their pet Palestinians are vicious, uncivilized barbarians who are responsible for what has happened. 

It is BS like that confirms what every Palestinian knows- the US never has and never will have their best interests at heart.

Palestinians have been getting fucked since since the Balfour Declaration. First by Great Britain. Later the UN. Finally the US. 

Maybe take a trip to the West Bank sometime and see what capitulation to Israel looks like. That is if the Israeli settlers and IDF allow it.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
9.3.1  charger 383  replied to  Ronin2 @9.3    2 weeks ago
the US never has and never will have their best interests at heart.

what have they ever done for the US to want to help them?

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
9.4  charger 383  replied to  Nerm_L @9    2 weeks ago
that their pet Palestinians are vicious, uncivilized barbarians who are responsible for what has happened. 

Agree  What have they done except cause trouble?   

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
10  Jeremy Retired in NC    3 weeks ago
Biden announced this month that he  ordered  the U.S. military to open up a maritime route for humanitarian assistance to Gaza.
  • The plan to establish the temporary port in Gaza has been the most significant U.S. humanitarian initiative since the Israel-Hamas war began.

Baltimore could sure use those resources now.  But hey, we already know this administration won't do a damn thing for the people they are supposed to represent.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
10.1  Kavika   replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @10    2 weeks ago
Baltimore could sure use those resources now.  But hey, we already know this administration won't do a damn thing for the people they are supposed to represent.

There isn't anything that the feds can give them at the moment. The administration has been in constant contact with Baltimore and the state by both the governor and mayor. They have been told they will get whatever they need. The Army Corp of Engineers are on site and a second channel was opened today and a third is being worked on. Part of the bridge has been removed and according to the Mayor and people overseeing the work it is especially dangerous for divers and any underwater work currently.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
11  Thrawn 31    one week ago

To a degree but not really, especially not right now. 

 
 

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