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Air Force airman killed by Florida deputies who were at wrong apartment, attorney says

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  perrie-halpern  •  2 weeks ago  •  243 comments

By:   Phil Helsel and John Filippelli

Air Force airman killed by Florida deputies who were at wrong apartment, attorney says
An Air Force airman who was fatally shot at his Okaloosa County, Florida, apartment Friday was killed by a deputy after law enforcement burst into the wrong home, civil rights attorney Ben Crump said Wednesday.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


An Air Force airman who was fatally shot at his Okaloosa County, Florida, apartment Friday was killed by a deputy after law enforcement burst into the wrong home, civil rights attorney Ben Crump said Wednesday.

A woman said that she was on a FaceTime video call with Senior Airman Roger Fortson, 23, when he was killed and that he was alone and there was no disturbance, which law enforcement said was the reason for the call, Crump said.

The Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office said that Friday afternoon, "our deputy responded to a call of a disturbance in progress where he encountered an armed man," and the deputy shot him.

According to the woman on the FaceTime call, whom Crump did not identify, Fortson heard a knock at his door, asked "Who is it?" got no response and could not see anyone through the peephole, Crump said in a statement.

There was a second, aggressive knock, Crump said, citing the woman's account.

"Concerned, he did what any other law-abiding citizen would do and retrieved his legally-owned gun, but as he was walking back to the living room, police burst through the door. When they saw the gun, they shot Roger six times," Crump said in the statement.

"The witness has said that she saw Roger on the ground stating, 'I can't breathe,' after he was shot," Crump said. "She has also said the police were in the wrong apartment as there was no disturbance in the apartment and he was alone."

A sheriff's spokesperson Friday night did not immediately respond to a request for comment about the claim that police were at the wrong apartment.

The Florida Department of Law Enforcement said it is investigating the shooting at the request of the sheriff's department. It did not provide any additional information, citing the active investigation.

The state attorney's office is also conducting an independent review, the sheriff's office said.

Sheriff Eric Aden said in a statement that "all of us at the Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office are saddened about the fatal officer involved shooting over the weekend."

"At this time, we humbly ask for our community's patience as we work to understand the facts that resulted in this tragic event," he said.

Hurlburt Field, the Air Force base where Fortson was assigned, said in a statement that Fortson entered active duty on Nov. 19, 2019. He was assigned to the 4th Special Operations Squadron.

"The 1st Special Operations Wing's priorities are providing casualty affairs service to the family, supporting the squadron during this tragic time, and ensuring resources are available for all who are impacted," the base said.

Okaloosa County is in the Florida Panhandle, east of Pensacola.


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Gsquared
Professor Principal
1  Gsquared    2 weeks ago

Another complete travesty.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1  Tessylo  replied to  Gsquared @1    2 weeks ago

Awaiting the deplorable victim blaming.

 
 
 
fineline
Freshman Silent
1.1.1  fineline  replied to  Tessylo @1.1    2 weeks ago

And the never-ending solicitation calls for donations to law-enforcement benevolent funds !

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
1.1.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  Tessylo @1.1    2 weeks ago

see below

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.2  Ozzwald  replied to  Gsquared @1    one week ago
Another complete travesty.

The police department states that it was NOT the wrong apartment.  Time will tell hopefully.

The truly damning bit, if you've seen it, is the bodycam footage showing the victim with a gun, but not pointing it or otherwise making threatening gestures.  Police officer saw the gun and over reacted.  Victim had every right to own and possess the gun on his own property, and he was not menacing the officer or anyone else with it.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
2  sandy-2021492    2 weeks ago
"all of us at the Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office are saddened about the fatal officer involved shooting over the weekend."

What a weasely way to avoid saying "We're sorry our officer shot an innocent man."

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
2.1  evilone  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2    2 weeks ago
"At this time, we humbly ask for our community's patience as we work to understand the facts that resulted in this tragic event," he said.

The also weasely way to say - don't get angry at our incompetence as sort out how we can get away with it.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.2  devangelical  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2    one week ago

incidents like this just lead to more cops getting shot...

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
2.2.1  Sparty On  replied to  devangelical @2.2    one week ago

And more improperly trained citizens getting shot

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
2.2.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  devangelical @2.2    one week ago

Payback?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.2.3  devangelical  replied to  Sparty On @2.2.1    one week ago

I didn't renew my ccw years ago, just in case a fascist got elected POTUS...

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.2.4  devangelical  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2.2.2    one week ago

payback for what? I have active LE in my family. the bell curve of competency applies to all jobs and professions. teachers, lawyers, cops, military service members ...

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
2.2.5  Sparty On  replied to  devangelical @2.2.3    one week ago

And you think that somehow protects you from what you fear?

Hilarious!

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
2.2.6  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  devangelical @2.2.4    one week ago

You tell me, I’m trying to understand you comment 2.2 by asking a question.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.2.7  devangelical  replied to  Sparty On @2.2.5    6 days ago

I don't fear anything.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
2.2.8  Sparty On  replied to  devangelical @2.2.7    5 days ago

Badass man!    Really badass!

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3  Kavika     2 weeks ago

Wrong apartment, wrong time and wrong color.

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
3.1  Right Down the Center  replied to  Kavika @3    2 weeks ago
wrong color

It is irresponsible comments like that without any facts that only makes things worse.  I suppose Al Sharpton's plane is already fueling up.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3.1.1  Kavika   replied to  Right Down the Center @3.1    2 weeks ago
It is irresponsible comments like that without any facts that only makes things worse.  I suppose Al Sharpton's plane is already fueling up.

Thank you for your input on this shooting, as far as facts go black men are killed at a high rate by LEO so it seems that there are facts involved the only race killed by LEOs at a higher are Native Americans and being a NA I am familiar with those facts and my experience is much different then yours in this type of LEO situation, I take anything that the PD states with a jaundiced view, you know from experience.

I don't know how my comment would make it worse since the airman is dead. Perhaps you should take a look at your own comment re Sharpton.  

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.2  Sparty On  replied to  Kavika @3.1.1    2 weeks ago
as far as facts go black men are killed at a high rate by LEO

Yep which is a much more complicated statistic than some might like to admit.     For example.   Black men are statistically more prone to be involved in activities which brings contact with LEO’s than say white men.

No doubt there is a component of racism there but it’s far from the main cause in my opinion. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3.1.3  Kavika   replied to  Sparty On @3.1.2    2 weeks ago
Yep which is a much more complicated statistic than some might like to admit.     For example.   Black men are statistically more prone to be involved in activities which brings contact with LEO’s than say white men.

Yes, statistics can be complicated to get to the root of why with blacks and NAs they are far more likely to be killed by LEO than whites. That last part is something that many non-minorities do not want to discuss. The black or red experience in dealing with LEO cannot be duplicated by whites, it's unique to itself and drags hundreds of years of history with it.  

So there may be factors such as fear of the black or redman mixed with bigotry or racism and the natural reaction of self-preservation by the LEOs that come into play and in some instances, the minority is simply guilty of a crime.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.4  CB  replied to  Right Down the Center @3.1    2 weeks ago

FYI, Benjamin Crump is already on the case. And for further clarity, the man being shot six times (until he was assuredly dead or . . . 'harmless') is the problem here. The fact that he is Black is secondary. The fact that a civil rights attorney has been brought/called in is owing to it being a violation of civil rights to enter the wrong apartment and shooting an otherwise innocent man.

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
3.1.5  Right Down the Center  replied to  Kavika @3.1.3    2 weeks ago
statistics can be complicated to get to the root of why with blacks and NAs they are far more likely to be killed by LEO than whites.

And that makes it the case in this specific instance?  Like I said that is irresponsible.

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
3.1.6  Right Down the Center  replied to  CB @3.1.4    2 weeks ago

It all still seems to come down to did the police identify them as such.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3.1.7  Kavika   replied to  Right Down the Center @3.1.5    2 weeks ago
And that makes it the case in this specific instance?  Like I said that is irresponsible.

In your opinion, read and post my whole comment and why would it be irresponsible since history does support it and would not the police statement be irresponsible as well if they went to the wrong address or did not id themselves or are they granted a special dispensation?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.8  CB  replied to  Kavika @3.1.3    2 weeks ago
The black or red experience in dealing with LEO cannot be duplicated by whites, it's unique to itself and drags hundreds of years of history with it.  

There is fear of people whom one chooses to disassociate oneself with or allow 'mystery' to exist concerning. That is, we have too many law enforcement officers who do not know enough about the citizenry they serve-such that they end up thinking that by far and large what can be known about 'others' is what they see manifested on television. Ignoring the obvious that television media leads with stories "that bleed." As in, "if it bleeds; it leads." 

Negative news sells more than positive news.

When law enforcement officers (LEO) do not put themselves in situations to wholly better understand the citizens they serve. . .they invariably are anxious—expect the worst. 

This is why it makes no sense to me that DEI training is being demonized by conservatives. Do they want a better community or just more of this 'insanity' of doing the same thing over and over again with mere dreams of getting different results.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.9  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.8    2 weeks ago

DEI is a waste of time, money, and resources.

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
3.1.10  Right Down the Center  replied to  Kavika @3.1.7    2 weeks ago
would not the police statement be irresponsible as well if they went to the wrong address or did not id themselves or are they granted a special dispensation?

See comment 8

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.11  CB  replied to  Right Down the Center @3.1.6    2 weeks ago

Identity is obvious, once the man's bare skin was looked up. It is a fact hard to hide and easy to discern on sight! What is problematic is something that occurs because people don't value 'others' they have no positive association concerning. That is, there are plenty of Youtube examples of police overreacting with minorities (because they are so definitionally and from observation) and (police) being warm to Whites because of 'close' relationships as themselves. And yes, data has shown that minorities can 'police' themselves and make snap judgements about themselves 'faster' than they would about an unknow white. 

Two contrasting cases in point:

Police officer shoots unarmed Black man at South Carolina gas station: raw video

Police Shoot Black Guy With Sword – But Not White Guy With Gun *

* The sword is 'bonus' to the point being made in the two contrast videos of Black man shot with no gun and White man talked down with gun for 40 minutes.

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
3.1.12  Right Down the Center  replied to  CB @3.1.11    2 weeks ago

See 3.1.6

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
3.1.13  Greg Jones  replied to  CB @3.1.11    2 weeks ago

First guy reached into vehicle for??? The others had what appeared to be real weapons and were probably brandishing them. Video is misleading

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.14  Tessylo  replied to  Kavika @3.1.1    2 weeks ago

jrSmiley_98_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.15  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.9    2 weeks ago

That is bull, unhelpful, and non-explanatory. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.16  CB  replied to  Right Down the Center @3.1.12    2 weeks ago

Not sure why that 'explanation' is helpful. Please elaborate more. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.17  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.8    2 weeks ago
This is why it makes no sense to me that DEI training is being demonized by conservatives.

Do Black LEOs shoot unnecessarily at a lower rate than white LEOs?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.18  CB  replied to  Greg Jones @3.1.13    2 weeks ago

The explanation is looking for an excuse to ignore civil rights. The first guy was asked for his license. . . granting him permission to retrieve it from where it 'rests' - inside the car. Thus, it was not a provocation. . . and, so the officer should have been prepared and observant of what would be DEFINITELY in his hand once he returned from the retrieval. The relevant other is not the sword wielding individual (ignore him for our purposes), and focus on the separate incident involving a white man holding a gun and pointing in outward at different times. . . and how he is being talked down and not commanded - it's relative-speaking handling with "kid-gloves." 

The difference in techniques are clear: White officers-especially male officers, are familiar when dealing with expectations from people like themselves' in general. 

My advice is to not overthink it.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.19  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.17    2 weeks ago

Do your own research on that and share it. The point of this exercise as it stands is the black and red experiences in the news and being captured on video. Moreover, its exacerbation because many who police are non-participatory in/with/through any relationship with the 'others' which they serve. For example, if a black officer is unfamiliar with the 'norms' of a red man's cultural/tribal behaviors it is open and 'ripe' for miscommunication of intent or an action resulting in injury or deadly consequences. There needs to be some involvement or agreement (before contact) with 'service' communities by officers who have the authority and power to arrest, injury, or legally kill those whom they are expected to protect.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.20  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.19    2 weeks ago
The point of this exercise as it stands is the black and red experiences in the news and being captured on video.

That may be the point of this exercise but you made a different point on DEI of which I wanted you to elaborate.  

For example, if a black officer is unfamiliar with the 'norms' of a red man's cultural/tribal behaviors it is open and 'ripe' for miscommunication of intent or an action resulting in injury or deadly consequences

There are numerous native Indian tribes. are the 'norms' the same across them, the same for those on and off reservations?

There needs to be some involvement or agreement (before contact) with 'service' communities by officers

Do you have a template in mind, what are the essential agreements?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.21  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.19    2 weeks ago
Do your own research on that and share it.

"Overall, officer demographics such as sex and experience were not related to racial disparities in fatal shootings. Although officer race was related to racial disparities, the fact that Black and Hispanic civilians were more likely to be shot by same-race officers was largely explained by similarities between officer and county demographics. Because racial disparities in FOIS do not vary based on officer race, hiring more diverse officers may not reduce racial disparities in FOIS. This is not to say that increasing officer diversity is without merit, as increasing officer diversity may broaden understanding of diverse communities and increase trust in law enforcement. However, these data suggest that increasing racial diversity would not meaningfully reduce racial disparity in fatal shootings (32)."

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.22  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.20    2 weeks ago

Do the research and/or ask "AI" for your answers. It's free in some cases. Experience is being shared with you as it is; don't want it—research it yourself.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.23  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.21    2 weeks ago

Next, check common-sense! And,  summarize.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.24  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.23    2 weeks ago

I included their summary.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.25  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.22    2 weeks ago
Do the research and/or ask "AI" for your answers

You advocated for DEI in LEO apparently without any research.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.26  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.15    2 weeks ago

you forgot "true".

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.27  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.25    2 weeks ago

I advocated for commonsense primarily too. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.28  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.26    2 weeks ago

Prove it. Do more than just your typical dark rhetoric.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.29  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.27    2 weeks ago

The study that I cited doesn’t support your ‘common sense’ as things aren’t always what they seem.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.30  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.29    2 weeks ago

You can continue with your alternative discussion. . . I am not interested.  Senior Airman Roger Fortson, 23, is essentially dead and his family is mourning, because trained law enforcement can't double-check, triple-check, and CONFIRM the address to which they are called for checking; and, once they enter the apartment and apparently see a gun they can't 'help' but shoot him (even though in our gun culture it is a conservative's dream to be able to defend himself/herself) and use no other control guideline for stopping besides he is not moving anymore.

Commonsense dictates that there should be solutions to this type of thing repeating:  1. Wrong house. 2. Disarming a resident safely.  3. Taking ownership for shooting the wrong guy 6 times. . . until he collapses from the 'stress' of the bullets or dies. Then, 'discovery' that the innocent have been wronged (victimized).

(May the powers that be save 'us' from becoming just another damn statistics.)

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.31  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.29    2 weeks ago

Your explanation ( 3.1.21 ) is not what it seems it turns out:

Retraction for Johnson et al., Officer characteristics and racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings

July 10, 2020
117 (30) 18130    
PSYCHOLOGICAL AND COGNITIVE SCIENCES  Retraction for “Officer characteristics and racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings,” by David J. Johnson, Trevor Tress, Nicole Burkel, Carley Taylor, and Joseph Cesario, which was first published July 22, 2019; 10.1073/pnas.1903856116 ( Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U.S.A.  116,  15877–15882 ).
The authors wish to note the following: “Our article estimated the role of officer characteristics in predicting the race of civilians fatally shot by police. A critique pointed out we had erroneously made statements about racial differences in the probability of being shot,

(1) and we issued a correction to rectify the statement.

(2) Despite this correction, our work has continued to be cited as providing support for the idea that there are no racial biases in fatal shootings, or policing in general. To be clear, our work does not speak to these issues and should not be used to support such statements. We take full responsibility for not being careful enough with the inferences made in our original report, as this directly led to the misunderstanding of our research.

While our data and statistical approach were appropriate for investigating whether officer characteristics are related to the race of civilians fatally shot by police, they are inadequate to address racial disparities in the probability of being shot.
Given these issues and the continued use of our work in the public debate on this topic, we have decided to retract the article.”
1. D. Knox, J. Mummolo, Making inferences about racial disparities in police violence.   Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U.S.A.   117, 1261–1262 (2020).
2. D. J. Johnson, T. Tress, N. Burkel, C. Taylor, J. Cesario, Correction for Johnson et al., Officer characteristics and racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings.   Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U.S.A.   117, 9127 (2020).

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.32  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.30    2 weeks ago
You can continue with your alternative discussion.

Who knows what you think that is.

Senior Airman Roger Fortson, 23,is essentially dead and his family is mourning, because trained law enforcement can't double-check, triple-check, and CONFIRM the address to which they are called for checking.

That’s probably true regardless of the LEO’s color.

Commonsense dictates that there should be solutions to this type of thing repeating

I don’t disagree.  If they have an officer ride program, you should consider signing up for it or doing some volunteer work with you local LEO.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.33  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.32    2 weeks ago

And you should as well. . . taking commonsense along with on the program. Moreover, I suggest trying to find some empathy for and with injured, dying, and dead innocent civilians would be useful too. :)

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.34  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.31    2 weeks ago
Your explanation ( 3.1.21 ) is not what it seems it turns out:

It’s not my explanation.  Perhaps you can find a better study if you are really concerned.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.35  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.34    2 weeks ago

Perhaps, you should just STOP at this point. It's not helping to strengthen discussion or your proposed point.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.36  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.28    2 weeks ago

no, YOU prove it!

it's another failed social experiment.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.37  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.36    2 weeks ago

Failed social experiment. Let's read your data on that.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.38  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.35    2 weeks ago
Perhaps, you should just STOP at this point.

Perhaps, but I haven’t.

It's not helping to strengthen discussion or your proposed point.

I didn’t propose a point.  You (in 3.1.8 ) wrote, “This is why it makes no sense to me that DEI training is being demonized by conservatives”.

I inferred from that that you felt that Black officers were less likely than white officers to shoot to kill needlessly.  I then asked you about that.  You didn’t answer that question or correct my mistake inference.

You asked my to do my own research, and so I did a quick search, perhaps not the best study but the only one I saw.

As I reflect up our exchanges on this thread, I know see some points.  I try to be data driven on important topics and not depend on ‘common sense’.  Perhaps there isn’t good data and we should demand that police agencies record and make available good data so informed and prioritized recommendations can be made.

As to strengthening a discussion, you seldom care to do that.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.39  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.37    2 weeks ago
Failed social experiment. Let's your data on that

What data are you reading?

“Amid growing legal, social and political backlash, American businesses, industry groups and employment professionals are quietly scrubbing DEI from public view — though not necessarily abandoning its practice . As they rebrand programs and hot-button acronyms, they’re reassessing decades-old anti-discrimination strategies and rewriting policies that once emphasized race and gender to prioritize inclusion for all.”

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.40  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.38    2 weeks ago

The only thing worth remarking on in that spiel is this: I try to be data driven on important topics and not depend on ‘common sense’.

1. Find data that does not have a banner reading 'retraction' attached as a header.

2. Common-sense is something we all can get behind, because we all have it more or less to some degrees. 

3. Data has a proper use in every discussion where it is needed. But, so does other considerations which are not established by data. (For instance, points about matters and issues that have no place in grids, graphs, and charts.)

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.41  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.39    2 weeks ago
3.1.9    Texan1211    replied to    CB   @ 3.1.8      5 hours ago  
DEI is a waste of time, money, and resources.
 
     
Your rhetoric misses the point. In this case, better understanding (and treatment) of the citizenry, collective and individually is what is best. LEOs need to understand those they are authorized to serve, protect, arrest, and yes-when as a last resort: kill. 
You can not, or rather, should not ignore this point. Diversity and inclusion (D/I) can help this. Because as it is, LEOs tend to view segments of the citizenry as 'aliens' to their cause. In a myriad of circumstances that is not the case. Nor should LEOs be so swift to see the solution to their problem/s with minorities as one for dealing with hostiles .
Turns out this young man probably deserved to live. . .and yet he was 'full' of holes and died leaving a 'world' of people behind to grief his unnecessary loss. 
 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.42  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.40    2 weeks ago
1. Find data that does not have a banner reading 'retraction' attached as a header.

What data have you found supporting your assertion?

2. Common-sense is something we all can get behind, because we all have it more or less to some degrees. 

The investigation in the case has barely begun, there is little evidence to apply common sense to.

Data has a proper use in every discussion where it is needed.

Are LEO shootings not one that needs data to support analysis?

But, so does other considerations which are not established by data. (For instance, points about matters and issues that have no place in grids, graphs, and charts.)

What are “points about matters and issues”?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.43  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.41    2 weeks ago
Your rhetoric misses the point.

What rhetoric?

You can not, or rather, should not ignore this point.

I haven’t.

Because as it is, LEOs tend to view segments of the citizenry as 'aliens' to their cause.

When I arrived in our Nations Capital, Blacks were the majority of our police force.  They still are.  Do you think that the Wash DC police department views Black citizens here as ‘aliens’?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.44  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.37    one week ago

it is in the same place your data is showing what a freaking roaring success it is.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.45  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.44    one week ago

Yep! Dark rhetoric is all you bring for us to digest. Well, I will have you know telling untruths about liberals as being dark and shadowy political 'demons,' and 'warts' on the body politics just proves your undying devotion to a misguided cause.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.46  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.45    one week ago
Dark rhetoric is all you bring for us to digest. Well, I will have you know telling untruths about liberals as being dark and shadowy political 'demons,' and 'warts' on the body politics just proves your undying devotion to a misguided cause.

What "cause"??

I often have no idea what it is you are attempting to convey to me.

Warts? Demons? Shadowy figures?

What ARE you talking about?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.47  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.42    one week ago

Officer characteristics and racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings

Edited by Kenneth W. Wachter, University of California, Berkeley, CA, and approved June 24, 2019 (received for review March 5, 2019)
July 22, 2019
116 (32) 15877-15882
THIS ARTICLE HAS BEEN CORRECTED THIS ARTICLE HAS BEEN RETRACTED VIEW RELATED CONTENT THIS ARTICLE HAS A REPLY

"THIS ARTICLE HAS BEEN RETRACTED"                   ↑     

Now on to the video of this incident which has been released:

At the close of the video, take stock of the gun being pointed down to the ground in this man's hand. 

That said, I don't understand why young black men appear, present, or address police officers with guns on them. I will probably never understand that. Even so, it is hard to understand why police are so 'fearful' in the company of Blacks and minorities. That is, with support and a constitution that empowers people to "open carry" - it is disturbingly dangerous when police react to a gun's mere presence enough to shoot to kill.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.48  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.43    one week ago

I will indulge this steady stream of questions. . . once to tell you this: This occurred in Florida. Location matter. Focus.  And don't bother posting more extraneous red herrings to distract from the Airman, 23 years old laying sprawled on the floor of his apartment from 6 gunshot wounds, thereabouts. I will ignore any more attempts to stray from this topic.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.49  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.48    one week ago
I will indulge this steady stream of questions

Hardly, you still haven’t answered (indulged) any questions.

This occurred in Florida. Location matter.

Are these shootings more of a pattern in Florida than elsewhere?

Focus

Seriously? 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.50  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.47    one week ago
Even so, it is hard to understand why police are so 'fearful' in the company of Blacks and minorities.


Are Black cop killers disproportionate to their population size?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
3.1.51  devangelical  replied to  CB @3.1.48    one week ago

why do you even respond to him? ... 2 comments at a time.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.52  CB  replied to  devangelical @3.1.51    one week ago

Sometimes I wonder, too. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
3.2  devangelical  replied to  Kavika @3    6 days ago

... wrong state.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
4  Greg Jones    2 weeks ago

"Concerned, he did what any other law-abiding citizen would do and retrieved his legally-owned gun, but as he was walking back to the living room, police burst through the door. When they saw the gun, they shot Roger six times," Crump said in the statement."

As if it actually went down that way. I'd want to see the body cam before assuming any racist intent

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
4.1  sandy-2021492  replied to  Greg Jones @4    2 weeks ago

Stand Your Ground laws don't just apply to people attacking kids armed with Skittles.

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
4.1.1  George  replied to  sandy-2021492 @4.1    2 weeks ago

I don't remember anyone claiming stand your ground against a kid armed with Skittles, i do remember someone claiming self-defense after getting attacked by a thug who thought he was tough. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
4.1.2  sandy-2021492  replied to  George @4.1.1    2 weeks ago

After having chased said "thug" armed with Skittles, despite having been told to stand down by emergency services dispatchers. 

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
4.1.3  George  replied to  sandy-2021492 @4.1.2    2 weeks ago

which have no authority to tell anybody to do anything, it isn't a crime to follow someone, and if you are stupid enough to attack them.......well, play stupid games win stupid prizes. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
4.1.4  sandy-2021492  replied to  George @4.1.3    2 weeks ago

So, you're ok with being stalked?

Odd position to take.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.5  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @4.1    2 weeks ago
Stand Your Ground laws don't just apply to people attacking kids armed with Skittles.

Isn't it interesting, despite all of the leftist media hype, that absolutely NO SUCH DEFENSE WAS USED BY ZIMMERMAN?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
4.1.6  sandy-2021492  replied to  George @4.1.1    2 weeks ago

Do you and Texan remember why Zimmerman wasn't arrested right away?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.7  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @4.1.6    2 weeks ago
Do you and Texan remember why Zimmerman wasn't arrested right away?

Do you now remember that Zimmerman never used stand your ground law as a defense, despite your comment in post 4.1?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
4.1.8  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.7    2 weeks ago

Can you quote  me saying he did?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.9  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @4.1.8    2 weeks ago
Can you quote  me saying he did?

If that wasn't what you meant, why bring it up at all? 

Since it wasn't used, your post actually signifies nothing.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
4.1.10  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.9    2 weeks ago

So, the answer you refuse to give is "no".

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.11  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @4.1.10    2 weeks ago

Your question isn't relevant.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
4.1.12  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.11    2 weeks ago

It is when I'm pointing out your strawman fallacy.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.13  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @4.1.12    2 weeks ago

That's pretty funny considering your post, which, of course, had nothing to do with anything anyone was discussing!

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
4.1.14  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.13    2 weeks ago

Stand Your Ground laws don't apply to people legally using firearms to defend themselves when their homes are forcefully entered?

That's an interesting interpretation.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.15  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @4.1.14    2 weeks ago

Your question about Zimmerman not being arrested right away is not relevant.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
4.1.16  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.15    2 weeks ago

You keep telling yourself that.

This guy did what Florida law allowed him to do, and got killed for it.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.17  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @4.1.16    2 weeks ago

I dont need to keep telling myself the truth, i already know.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.18  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  sandy-2021492 @4.1.16    2 weeks ago

Some might want to let the investigation continue before snap judgements.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
4.1.19  devangelical  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.18    6 days ago
might want to let the investigation continue before snap judgements

too bad for the airman the trigger happy cop wasn't thinking that...

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
4.2  Sparty On  replied to  Greg Jones @4    2 weeks ago

Yeah, it’s so much easier to simply pass judgement on things one couldn’t possibly understand or appreciate from the comfort of one’s armchair far far away.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
4.3  MrFrost  replied to  Greg Jones @4    2 weeks ago
As if it actually went down that way.

So you were there? Tell us, Greg...what happened? /s

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.3.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  MrFrost @4.3    2 weeks ago

What did your vantage point reveal:

  • Wrong address?
  • Pep hole covered or not?
  • Did the airman acknowledge LEO outside before the door was opened or not?
  • Did the airman stand by the door holding a weapon?

I can’t make any judgments on the early and incomplete evidence, how can you?

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
4.3.2  MrFrost  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.3.1    one week ago

He answered the door with the gun at his side, completely legal for him to do so in his own home. He was then shot 6 times, killing him. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
4.3.3  devangelical  replied to  MrFrost @4.3.2    6 days ago

I watched the video last night for the first time. that goober cop is going to do a stretch in the big house.

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
5  George    2 weeks ago

Hopefully they had body cams and we will see the footage. 

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
5.1  Right Down the Center  replied to  George @5    2 weeks ago

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
6  Sparty On    2 weeks ago

A tragic turn of events.

Sad, very sad!

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
7  Trout Giggles    2 weeks ago

This young man is stationed at the same base my boy is

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
7.1  devangelical  replied to  Trout Giggles @7    2 weeks ago

interaction with white southern cops = safety off on my 9mm

looking like okaloosa county taxpayers will be saddled with a multi-million dollar wrongful death suit.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
7.1.1  Tessylo  replied to  devangelical @7.1    2 weeks ago

Heartbreaking and shameful and the victim blamers are out in force.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
7.1.2  bugsy  replied to  devangelical @7.1    2 weeks ago
interaction with white southern cops = safety off on my 9mm

So FOS

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
7.1.3  Tessylo  replied to  devangelical @7.1    2 weeks ago

only way to deal with those cockroaches

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
8  Right Down the Center    2 weeks ago

Hopefully they were using cams.  If they did not identify themselves they deserve whatever happens to them.  If they did loudly identify themselves that changes things.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
8.1  Vic Eldred  replied to  Right Down the Center @8    2 weeks ago

Correct and if they did identify themselves, Ben Crump should be disbarred.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
8.1.1  devangelical  replied to  Vic Eldred @8.1    2 weeks ago

[deleted][]

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
8.1.2  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @8.1    2 weeks ago
Correct and if they did identify themselves, Ben Crump should be disbarred.

And if they didn't identify themselves they should be terminated from the force and tried for murder.

And if they were at the wrong address the above applies with the added caveat that their time should be life plus 100 years should be served at ''Devils Island''.

 
 
 
Hallux
PhD Principal
8.1.3  Hallux  replied to  Vic Eldred @8.1    2 weeks ago
if

So few syllables for such an expansive word, even Kipling abused it.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
8.1.4  Vic Eldred  replied to  Kavika @8.1.2    2 weeks ago
And if they didn't identify themselves

The chances of that are very low. Hopefully we'll have some audio evidence other than the woman on the FaceTime call.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
8.1.5  Vic Eldred  replied to  Hallux @8.1.3    2 weeks ago

Kipling also said never take the bait.

 
 
 
Hallux
PhD Principal
8.1.6  Hallux  replied to  Vic Eldred @8.1.5    2 weeks ago
Kipling also said never take the bait.

Bait was not needed.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
8.1.7  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @8.1    2 weeks ago
Correct and if they did identify themselves, Ben Crump should be disbarred.

Why, because he has won too many of these types of cases, that's his job and he seems to be damn good at it. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
8.1.8  Vic Eldred  replied to  Hallux @8.1.6    one week ago

Many here took it.

This slewed story now needs to be taken down.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
8.1.9  CB  replied to  Vic Eldred @8.1.8    one week ago

We can always depend on a some conservative perspective to devalue 'others' - even though as I look around me we've all grown together in this virtual world and in the real world. I see people of all stripes in my daily 'walk' through life. . . and yet I come here and read trash about our interrelationships and mutual existing together from conservatives. It's very sad and disheartening to know some in our country simply are hindered in liking or loving other humans.

And, 'they' wonder why there is a divide in our country. . . . 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8.1.10  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @8.1.8    one week ago

THIS story isn't 'slewed'

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
8.1.11  devangelical  replied to  Vic Eldred @8.1.8    one week ago
This slewed story now needs to be taken down.

that probably won't help the longevity of it's slewed replacement ...

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8.1.12  Tessylo  replied to  devangelical @8.1.11    one week ago

It's deplorable

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.1.13  Texan1211  replied to  Vic Eldred @8.1.8    one week ago

Gee, I wonder why no one has decried this story as mere "local news"?

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
8.1.14  bugsy  replied to  Texan1211 @8.1.13    one week ago

I live in Florida and if it weren't for this leftist whine fest, I would never have heard about it.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8.1.15  Tessylo  replied to  Tessylo @8.1.12    one week ago

[]

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
8.1.16  Sparty On  replied to  Tessylo @8.1.15    one week ago

[]

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
8.1.17  bugsy  replied to  Sparty On @8.1.16    one week ago

[] https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/state-test-results-23-baltimore-schools-have-zero-students-proficient-in-math-jovani-patterson-maryland-comprehensive-assessment-program-maryland-governor-wes-moore

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.1.18  Texan1211  replied to  Tessylo @8.1.15    one week ago
removed for context
 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
8.1.19  bugsy  replied to  Texan1211 @8.1.18    one week ago

[]

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.1.20  Texan1211  replied to  bugsy @8.1.19    one week ago

[]

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
8.2  MrFrost  replied to  Right Down the Center @8    2 weeks ago

Hopefully they were using cams.  If they did not identify themselves they deserve whatever happens to them.  If they did loudly identify themselves that changes things.

Saw the video, they opened the door and shot him six times. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
8.2.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  MrFrost @8.2    2 weeks ago

They or one deputy?

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
8.2.2  Right Down the Center  replied to  MrFrost @8.2    2 weeks ago

Want to share the link? I hope the 30 seconds before they broke in is also there

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
8.2.3  Right Down the Center  replied to  MrFrost @8.2    2 weeks ago

And they yelled twice. For some reason you forgot to mention it

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
8.2.4  MrFrost  replied to  Right Down the Center @8.2.2    one week ago

Want to share the link? I hope the 30 seconds before they broke in is also there

The video has been shown on CNN for two days. 

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
8.2.5  Right Down the Center  replied to  MrFrost @8.2.4    one week ago

As was my post you responded to

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
8.2.6  MrFrost  replied to  Right Down the Center @8.2.5    one week ago
As was my post you responded to

I have better things to do that sit here and hit refresh all day long. 

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
8.2.7  Right Down the Center  replied to  MrFrost @8.2.6    one week ago

[deleted][]

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
10  MrFrost    2 weeks ago

The only way the right cares about people being murdered in the USA if it was done by an illegal...murders like this? They don't care. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
10.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  MrFrost @10    2 weeks ago

[deleted][]

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
10.2  Texan1211  replied to  MrFrost @10    2 weeks ago

that is one erroneous "conclusion"!

 
 
 
Gazoo
Junior Silent
10.3  Gazoo  replied to  MrFrost @10    2 weeks ago

[deleted][]

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
10.3.1  Tessylo  replied to  Gazoo @10.3    one week ago

that's all you post

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
11  Ed-NavDoc    2 weeks ago

Either way this was a result of gross negligence on the part of the Sheriff's Department and heads need to roll on this, bottom line. That young Airman, no matter what color he was, had every right to have a firearm in his possession in his own home when those overeager cops broke open his door without identifying themselves as LEO's.

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
11.1  Right Down the Center  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @11    2 weeks ago

It seems they did identify themselves 

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
11.1.1  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Right Down the Center @11.1    2 weeks ago

Either way, they were still grossly negligent just being at the wrong address!

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
11.1.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @11.1.1    one week ago

We are far from done with the ongoing investigation.  It may well turn out that the deputy was negligent in this shooting.

Currently, the sheriff is pushing back at the wrong address angle.  He said that they received a domestic disturbance report and the caller provided the airman’s apartment address.  Upon arrival, the deputy saw a woman outside the complex.  Bodycam video released yesterday confirms that she also identified the disturbance as in apartment 1401.  Video also substantiates that the officer twice announced law enforcement at the door which the airman acknowledged.

Again, a long way to go to substantiate the facts here.  My time in the military taught me that many times, initial reports of serious incidents were wrong.  The state police will investigate and if necessary, so will the Feds.  They just need time.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
11.2  sandy-2021492  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @11    one week ago

Yes.

This is the thing about SYG laws.  When cops show up, they need to know that it is legal under those laws for the homeowner to be armed, and to expect that.

He was armed, legally.  He did not brandish his weapon.  It was not pointed toward the deputy.  If he was the only person in the apartment, he was obviously not involved in a domestic dispute.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
11.2.1  Sparty On  replied to  sandy-2021492 @11.2    one week ago
He did not brandish his weapon


Wrong.    Any properly trained CPL holder can tell you the legal meaning of “brandish” in relation to handguns.    It goes as follows:

the term “brandish” means, with respect to a firearm, to display all or part of the firearm, or otherwise make the presence of the firearm known to another person

So legally, he was brandishing.    The question becomes, was this shooting righteous.    That question is most definitely up in the air.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
11.2.2  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sparty On @11.2.1    one week ago

Ok, I stand corrected.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
11.2.3  devangelical  replied to  sandy-2021492 @11.2.2    one week ago

trump wants to make LE shootings like this exempt from the law.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
11.2.4  sandy-2021492  replied to  devangelical @11.2.3    one week ago

I want no part of a country where the government can with impunity execute innocent people on the basis of "Somebody said she was in a fight, and I thought she might have a gun."  Such exemption would likely lead to more LE getting killed, because people will, with reason, fear that every interaction with LE can lead to their deaths, and behave accordingly.

I really don't think people who hold such views think things through, at all.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
11.2.5  Greg Jones  replied to  sandy-2021492 @11.2.4    one week ago

So you disagree with....."if you see something, say something".

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
11.2.6  sandy-2021492  replied to  Greg Jones @11.2.5    one week ago

What in the world does that have to do with my comment?

How absurd to equate opposition to extrajudicial execution with opposition to reporting crime.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
11.2.7  devangelical  replied to  sandy-2021492 @11.2.4    one week ago
people will, with reason, fear that every interaction with LE can lead to their deaths, and behave accordingly.

as a child of the 60's & 70's I experienced bad cop bullshit first hand. it's a job that attracts some people which may have major issues. I went to high school in a new suburb that hired cops from back east that weren't allowed to be cops in those states anymore. a few of the worst ones received a welcome to colorado experience.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
11.2.8  MrFrost  replied to  Sparty On @11.2.1    one week ago

Fair enough, but the gun was at his side, he wasn't aiming it at the cops. He is entitled to have his legally purchased firearm in his hand in his own home. He made no threatening moves, never raised the gun. The cops over reacted plain and simple. 

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
11.2.9  Sparty On  replied to  MrFrost @11.2.8    one week ago
He made no threatening moves, never raised the gun.

Irrelevant in relation to brandishing.    Any good CPL course will emphasize the dangers of simple brandishing and this case just reinforces the potential seriousness of such action.     Had he ever taken a CPL course?    Unknown.    

You open your door with a weapon visible in your hand.   Shit like this can happen.    Sure it’s legal but what good will that do if you’re dead?

The cops over reacted plain and simple. 

I agree and a thorough investigation will likely come to that conclusion but again.    This young man is still needlessly dead.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.2.10  CB  replied to  Sparty On @11.2.9    one week ago

The 2023 Florida Statutes (including Special Session C)

790.10  Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms. If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s.   775.082   or s.   775.083 .

You are glossing over an important fact (about brandishing a weapon): The officer is the 'outsider' here. The Airman is at home and accordingly is entitled to have his gun present inside of his apartment. He is likely trained to use a firearm since he is Air Force and a weapons specialists, and of course, some conservatives can appreciate that he, like themselves , in the state of Florida especially, has a right to bear arms in his own home. The weapon was never pointed at the deputy

Senior Airman Roger Fortson, 23, did not appear rude, careless (with his gun), angry, or threatening towards the deputy.

Thus, you are right! This airman is dead for no good reason.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
11.2.11  MrFrost  replied to  Sparty On @11.2.9    one week ago

In the video, the cop knocks the first time, he didn't say who he was. 30 seconds later, he knocked again, then announcing who he was. In that intervening 30 seconds, it's assumed he grabbed his sidearm. Should he have opened the door with his gun in his hand if he knew for certain it was law enforcement? Of course not. My guess is he didn't know who was at the door. In the end, he didn't do anything illegal. 

I agree that he is needlessly dead. 

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
11.2.12  Sparty On  replied to  CB @11.2.10    one week ago
You are glossing over an important fact (about brandishing a weapon)

Have you ever shot a handgun?    Have you ever owned one?    If yes have ever taken a defense or CPL course.

No to all of the above I bet.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
11.2.13  Sparty On  replied to  MrFrost @11.2.11    one week ago

Great advise:

[jrEmbed module="jrYouTube" youtube_id="iEi9Qpnro34"]

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.2.14  CB  replied to  Sparty On @11.2.12    one week ago

This is not about a concealed weapon, it's plain to see to all who watch the video. And, I repeat. The airman was not brandishing a weapon in violation of Florida law. 

The 2023 Florida Statutes
(Including Special Session C)

790.10    Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.  —  If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm , electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner , not in necessary self-defense , the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s.    775.082    or s.    775.083  .
 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
11.2.15  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @11.2.14    one week ago
The airman was not brandishing a weapon in violation of Florida law. 

“In the State of Florida, it is a criminal offense to resist arrest or to use any form of weapon or defense against an officer of the law whilst they carry out their lawful duties. Brandishing, discharging, or otherwise threatening an officer with a firearm carries with it additional, steep legal penalties and sanctions.”

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.2.16  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @11.2.15    one week ago

You have opportunity to read the state brandishing statue: Now then, using the timestamp on the video (3.1.47) let us see what "offense" you are seeking to exploit! Please proceed. . . . :)

(Hint: It has to happen after the door is opened to the outside, so 'rush' the video forward to that point if you want to save time. It will be quick and short because the Airman was 'dropped' in less than thirty seconds thereabouts.)  

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
11.2.17  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @11.2.16    one week ago
let us see what "offense" you are seeking to exploit! Please proceed. . . .

I haven't tried to exploit! anything.  I've consistently said we need to withhold judgement until the investigation is completed.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
11.2.18  Texan1211  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @11.2.17    one week ago
haven't tried to exploit! anything.  I've consistently said we need to withhold judgement until the investigation is completed.

How dare you be so damn sensible and reasonable!!

Shame, shame!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.2.19  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @11.2.17    one week ago

You have the video submitted for a 'personal' review at 3.1.47 and the Florida brandishing statue at 11.2.14 you can see (and not wait to be told what to think). MAGAs regularly hit others for not thinking for themselves whether rightly or wrongly it is done. . . well, think for yourself! And when any other truths come out we can blend them in to the discussion as "updates."

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
11.2.20  Thomas  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @11.2.15    one week ago

Holding a weapon pointed at the floor is not Brandishing. 

After watching the video and reading commentary about the same, I think that the Airman realized that it was not a home invasion, opened the door when he realized that it was a police officer thinking to himself "oh, it's ok it's just a cop and I am an Airman. We should be cool." and then the police officer totally freaked out and shot him six times. 

Is that what happened? Can't say for sure, but the casual way he answered the door seems indicative of it.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
11.2.21  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @11.2.19    one week ago

You have the video submitted for a 'personal' review

I have reviewed it.

the Florida brandishing statue at 11.2.14

Yes, maybe you can predict Floridian juries decisions based on the nuances and this law. 

you can see (and not wait to be told what to think).

I'm not waiting to be told what to think, I waiting for more evidence to be presented.

MAGAs regularly hit others for not thinking for themselves whether rightly or wrongly it is done. . . well, think for yourself!

I've never been a MAGA, perhaps your retention of my past comments is low.

And when any other truths come out we can blend them in to the discussion as "updates."

I don't know what you think this means but I know not to ask.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
11.2.22  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Thomas @11.2.20    one week ago
Holding a weapon pointed at the floor is not Brandishing. 

That will be up to a jury perhaps.

I think that the Airman realized that it was not a home invasion, opened the door when he realized that it was a police officer thinking to himself "oh, it's ok it's just a cop and I am an Airman. We should be cool." and then the police officer totally freaked out and shot him six times. 

That may be what happened.  We also need to know who called in the 911, why and why did the woman who met the cop give him the same room number as the call.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.2.23  CB  replied to  Thomas @11.2.20    one week ago

That is a sensible conclusion. Even I would have done so. . .without the gun in my case. . . probably owing to the fact that I have a lifetime of experience watching and reading about these things. A 23 years old Airman-maybe not so much. It's sad 'all-around' what comes next.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.2.24  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @11.2.22    one week ago

Just for shakes and chuckles: we need the deputy who did the shooting identified too. If others are identified that are presently kept out of the news. Then his background can be scrutinized by those who like, 'er love, to look through others documented past for something negative to put out publicly too. /s

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
11.2.25  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @11.2.24    one week ago

Just for shakes and chuckles:

I don't see any chuckles in this incident.

we need the deputy who did the shooting identified too.

That always happens at some point during the investigation.

If others are identified that are presently kept out of the news.

Like the girlfriend?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.2.26  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @11.2.22    one week ago

A criminal or civil jury will be instructed in the law on brandishing a weapon. They will see the camera footage of an Airman holding a gun in the downward position; an officer in full authority of his position forgetting to tell the Airman to place the weapon on the floor (in case the Airman has forgotten he is holding it in the presence of an 'official,' and then in less than 10 seconds for him to follow an instruction to back up- he was laying on his floor with six bullets from that "authority figure" in his chest and arms.

That is what the jury will see. Brandishing a weapon. . . is not an issue here.

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
11.2.27  Thomas  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @11.2.22    one week ago
That may be what happened.  We also need to know who called in the 911, why and why did the woman who met the cop give him the same room number as the call.

Yes, we do need to know those things also. But the body language when he opens the door says," We are equal. We are both on the same team. How you doing?" Too bad that the officer did not read that. I agree that we still need to know who called the report in initially. But it looks like a case of manslaughter to me, in my totally not-a-professional opinion. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
11.2.28  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @11.2.26    one week ago

Perhaps you have more experience than I do at predicting Florida juries.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
11.2.29  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Thomas @11.2.27    one week ago

But the body language when he opens the door says," We are equal. We are both on the same team. How you doing?"

I don't disagree.

Too bad that the officer did not read that.

Yes, domestic disturbance calls seem to make cops even more wary.

Likely a tragic mistake for the airman to have held bon to the gun and for the deputy to have shot.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.2.30  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @11.2.28    one week ago

See the law on banishing a weapon. It's been provided for consumption here.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
11.2.31  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @11.2.30    one week ago

Yes, I read it.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
11.2.32  Sparty On  replied to  CB @11.2.14    one week ago
This is not about a concealed weapon,

This just shows an obtuse understand of the concepts at play.    I never said it was about a concealed weapon.    CPL training teaches proper gun handling for all situations.    Had you taken such a course you would understand.

I see you avoided answering all my questions.    Which answers them and just reinforces a lack of knowledge of the concepts at play here.

Your comments simply reveal another know it all who actually knows little to nothing about the topic at hand.    Nothing new there considering.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
11.2.33  Tessylo  replied to  MrFrost @11.2.8    one week ago

[deleted][]

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
11.2.34  Sparty On  replied to  Tessylo @11.2.33    one week ago

removed for context

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
11.2.35  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Sparty On @11.2.34    one week ago

[]

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.2.36  CB  replied to  Sparty On @11.2.32    one week ago

Then you should have no problem taking your 'ball' off my playground. You've exposed nothing. I long since have had the discussion about military service, being homosexual, and my religious views on NT. And I have memories of you being on NT at the time commenting on various articles with me.

I see no reason to 'trot' those facts about myself out at your beck and call. You command nothing in me. As for what CPL teaches great! You should have stated so much in the first place. . . perhaps you and your cleverness can take the time to explain where the Airman went wrong. So far you have kept it close to your chest!

Moreover, Florida statue states the Airman was not brandishing is gun (in his own home of all places). But do tell us why Florida law gets it wrong.  /s

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
11.2.37  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Sparty On @11.2.12    one week ago

Yes, yes, and yes for me. In my neck of the desert in Arizona we call it a CCP for Concealed Carry Permit, which is interesting because Arizona is a open carry state where a CCP is not required to carry open or concealed.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
11.2.38  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @11.2.35    one week ago

[]

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
11.2.39  Sparty On  replied to  CB @11.2.36    one week ago

Seems you want to make this personal.    I have no desire for that folly.

I never said brandishing was a chargeable offense in Fla.    it doesn’t change the fact that it isn’t the best move in this situation.    Brandishing in this situation was absolutely the wrong tact to take.    The video I linked explains this very well to anyone who bothered to watch it.    

i find it interesting that people here who are traditionally for more gun control, seem to be arguing for less gun control in this situation.    I am not.    I’m 100% 2nd amendment rights but unlike others here I understand proper gun handling.    Answering the door like he did escalated the situation beyond what it needed to be.    And put the LEO on the offensive when he didn’t need to be.     Gun ownership carries an awesome responsibility that many here don’t seem to grasp.

I can’t help but think that this is because it was a black man.    Had it been a white hillbilly many of you would be saying he deserved what he got.    The bias involved is not lost on me.

Not in the least.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
11.2.40  Sparty On  replied to  Thomas @11.2.20    one week ago
Holding a weapon pointed at the floor is not Brandishing. 

Already asked and answered.    Yes it is brandishing, by definition.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.2.41  CB  replied to  Sparty On @11.2.39    one week ago
11.2.32    Sparty On    replied to    CB   @ 11.2.14       15 hours ago
This is not about a concealed weapon

This just shows an obtuse understand of the concepts at play.    I never said it was about a concealed weapon.    CPL training teaches proper gun handling for all situations.    Had you taken such a course you would understand.

I see you avoided answering all my questions.    Which answers them and just reinforces a lack of knowledge of the concepts at play here.

Your comments simply reveal another know it all who actually knows little to nothing about the topic at hand.    Nothing new there considering


You went personal, so folly it was.

And I never said the Airman was brandishing a weapon either according to a Florida State statute.

Sure, I can see that the Airman's gun is exposed in his right hand,  and dictionary-wise he is "displaying' a gun. And yes, legally brandishing a weapon in Florida under certain restrictions is a chargeable offense. 

And yes it got this Airman killed to have the gun in his hand. 

And yes, your provided video gun expert stated the obvious: some groups of people, and depending on the person per se, could not walk up to an officer with a gun exposed. I watched the video in its entirety.

And yet so. . .the officer is in trouble, because he never asked the Airman to drop the gun (even though his gun was already out?); and/or, he reached and got his gun after shouting "Stand back!" and the Airman proceeded to FOLLOW THE OFFICER'S STATED DIRECTIVE. Thus, the Airman's gun is now on his far side and AWAY from the officer. Correction: The gun would have been on the Airman's far side away. . .but for the fact that the Airman was on the floor himself from having been shot six times. 

As you can see, I grasp many a scenario through discernment moving to the most human of possible scenarios

Finally, I am pretty sure there are some people who can pass a police academy who really should not be officers with the authority to shoot and kill:

One, if an officer is "fearful" of his life in a situation where he is the "authority figure" who HAS TO STAY CALM or tensions will certain escalate,

Two, if an officer is prone to implicit bias and 'otherization' of certain groups in the population, . . .

. . . probably, ask for a permanent desk assignment.

I will leave the hillbilly remark alone. Because I am sure I have watched a great many hillbilly programming/series in my time.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
11.2.42  Sparty On  replied to  CB @11.2.41    one week ago

lol ….. funny ….

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.2.43  CB  replied to  Sparty On @11.2.42    one week ago

Of course, a young Airman is dead, making this a genuine not laughingly funny matter. :(

I can't prove it. . . but it could appear the deputy asked this 23 years old servicemember, being too close to him, to "stand back" so he could get clean shots into him.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
11.2.44  devangelical  replied to  CB @11.2.43    one week ago

... so all the cops there could get clear shots.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.2.45  CB  replied to  devangelical @11.2.44    one week ago

I just realized that I made a "funny" in-spite of myself! Because it was strongly in my mind for days now after watching the video as to "Why, shoot so fast?" (Unless, the deputy saw the gun only after the Airman stepped back, to be fair to the deputy.) 

Also, it does appear to be one deputy involved in this story, in my opinion.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
11.2.46  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @11.2.45    one week ago
I just realized that I made a "funny" in-spite of myself!

It’s good to find the humor in tragedy.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
11.2.47  Sparty On  replied to  CB @11.2.43    6 days ago

Of course I wasn’t talking about my dead brother and I take umbrage with the allusion you are attempting with that comment.     You see, all service members are brothers and sisters to fellow Vets.    Tough for non Vets to understand so you get a free pass for making such an obtuse comment.

I was laughing at your comment and your comment only.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.2.48  CB  replied to  Sparty On @11.2.47    6 days ago

I am a veteran, period. So 'brother' get use to it. There, you can stop digging now.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
11.2.49  Trout Giggles  replied to  CB @11.2.48    6 days ago

jrSmiley_93_smiley_image.jpg jrSmiley_93_smiley_image.jpg jrSmiley_93_smiley_image.jpg

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
11.2.50  Sparty On  replied to  CB @11.2.48    5 days ago

[deleted][]

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
11.2.51  Sparty On  replied to  CB @11.2.48    5 days ago

[removed][]

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
12  charger 383    one week ago

Bad guys have been known to falsely claim to be police  

 
 
 
fineline
Freshman Silent
12.1  fineline  replied to  charger 383 @12    one week ago

Oh, for Christ's sake ! To quote [deleted] [] Drinker of the Wry, " Is your analysis based on surveys or something else".

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
12.1.1  Texan1211  replied to  fineline @12.1    one week ago

Not an analysis, just an observation which most people understand to be true.

 
 
 
fineline
Freshman Silent
12.1.2  fineline  replied to  Texan1211 @12.1.1    one week ago

[deleted][]

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
12.1.3  Texan1211  replied to  fineline @12.1.2    one week ago
Those that read the National Enquirer or Fox News or Qanon or their man cave buddies or ...........!

probably even people like that know it too. Heck, I bet even most of the folks who get their "news" from late night comedians know it, too!

Sad that some don't.......

Check to see if your Google is working. Mine brings up examples of folks impersonating cops to murder or rob whenever I type "Cases where people impersonated cops to kill or rob".

It really works!

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
12.1.4  sandy-2021492  replied to  fineline @12.1    one week ago

I believe charger's point was that anybody could have said they were the police.  If Fortson even heard them through the door, how did he know they were telling the truth?  He wasn't expecting the police to show up, because he hadn't done anything wrong.  He had no idea he was being accused of domestic violence, because he was alone.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
12.1.5  devangelical  replied to  sandy-2021492 @12.1.4    one week ago

my cousin's husband used to make a really good living negotiating settlements for LE fuck ups like this.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
12.1.6  sandy-2021492  replied to  devangelical @12.1.5    one week ago

Not related to a shooting, but there was a police officer back home who had gained the reputation of taking liberties with women he pulled over while on patrol.  This was way before bodycams, so it would be his word against hers.  A family friend was pulled over years ago by him, and he told her to get out of the car, for a simple speeding ticket.  She refused, and told him why.  Nothing ever came of her refusal.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
12.1.7  devangelical  replied to  sandy-2021492 @12.1.6    one week ago

I got a speeding ticket in a sundown town in the texas panhandle 3 years ago. I was in a rental car with west coast plates and had the cruise control set at 2mph above the speed limit of 75, which means everybody else is passing me. I wasn't about to argue, since I had my 9mm in my pocket. I spoke to the one cop through the window while the other was at my 2 o'clock 12 feet from me standing there with his hand on his holster. I plea bargained the ticket down over the phone.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
12.1.8  Trout Giggles  replied to  sandy-2021492 @12.1.6    one week ago

There was a serial rapist about 30 years ago in Arkansas who called the Blue LIght Rapist. He would place a blue light on his dash and pull women over and rape them.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
12.1.9  sandy-2021492  replied to  Trout Giggles @12.1.8    one week ago

I remember hearing about that on the news.

In our case, it was an actual sheriff's deputy, not an impostor.

I'd like to think that his buddies would put a stop to it, but the WV State Police are under investigation for the presence of cameras in a women's locker room, including during a Junior Trooper program attended by minors until 2020.  Somehow, I never hear about that anymore.  I wonder why /s

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.1.10  CB  replied to  Trout Giggles @12.1.8    one week ago

I wonder: Is this rapist who used police "effects" the reason why people now 'demand' to pull over in populated lighted areas? Is this the incident that started the national 'trend'?

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
12.1.11  Trout Giggles  replied to  CB @12.1.10    one week ago

I believe so. I know women were warned  in Arkansas that if they saw a blue light to wait until they could get to a safe spot before stopping

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.1.12  CB  replied to  devangelical @12.1.7    one week ago
I got a speeding ticket in a sundown town in the texas [sic]panhandle 3 years ago.

That is a 'throwback' phrase: "Sundown town." Do those places still exist as such? I always thought they had to do with people who wanted their towns "exited" by outsiders at dusk, especially 'undesirables' as determined by locals

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.1.13  CB  replied to  Trout Giggles @12.1.11    one week ago

What is interesting and disturbing  at the same time is police agencies still do not 'know' how they feel or should process when people don't immediately stop and pull over for them. The practice of delaying pulling over lies in controversy. As I do not get stopped by LEOs (thankfully-I don't drive much at night), I often wonder what I should/would do in such a situation.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
12.1.14  Trout Giggles  replied to  CB @12.1.13    one week ago

 I drive mostly during the day and just back and forth to work. On the rare occasion I have to go out of town I try not to speed

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
12.1.15  Trout Giggles  replied to  CB @12.1.12    one week ago

Yes, Sundown towns still exist. The bedroom community I currently live in was once a sundown town but it's becoming more diversified.

There's a well known town in Arkansas called Harrison that is a sundown town.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.1.16  CB  replied to  Trout Giggles @12.1.14    one week ago

It sorta weird, I have mild concerns about driving while Black (not so much in California-as these occurrences rarely don't make the news here). . .but, life is so different for females. . . . The female perspective has to take into consideration a great number of things that a male takes for granted or is not privy to dealing with ever. And yet, women make it look so normal and routine. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.1.17  CB  replied to  Trout Giggles @12.1.15    one week ago

Wow. I guess somehow they keep it legal to be so.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.1.18  CB  replied to  Trout Giggles @12.1.15    one week ago
The bedroom community I currently live in was once a sundown town but it's becoming more diversified.

"Diversity" . . . there is that dirty word for MAGAs again. It's good to 'hear' about a community that is positive about diversifying its citizenry! :)

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
12.1.19  Tessylo  replied to  fineline @12.1    one week ago

jrSmiley_98_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
12.1.20  devangelical  replied to  sandy-2021492 @12.1.6    6 days ago

we had a cop in denver that worked out speeding ticket fines in his cruiser. buster was his name I think. he finally croaked a few decades ago...

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
12.1.21  devangelical  replied to  Trout Giggles @12.1.8    5 days ago
There was a serial rapist about 30 years ago in Arkansas who called the Blue LIght Rapist

there's one in mar-a-lardo florida that stalks the golf courses in a red hat...

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
13  Drinker of the Wry    one week ago
I have mild concerns about  driving while Black  (not so much in California-as these occurrences rarely don't make the news here).

CA is the 18th highest state in per capita police killings.

Getting to be data driven. 

State:   CA
State Population: 39,538,223
 
Total People Killed by Police: 1,828
Avg Annual Police Killings Rate for All People:   4.1
 
Black People Killed by Police: 270
Avg Annual Police Killings Rate for Black People:   11.2
 
Latinx People Killed by Police: 814
Avg Annual Police Killings Rate for Latinx People:   4.6
 
Native American People Killed by Police: 8
Avg Annual Police Killings Rate for Native American People:   4.5
 
White People Killed by Police: 515
Avg Annual Police Killings Rate for White People:   3.3
 
Percent of Total Population Black:   5%
Percent of People Killed by Police Black:   15%
 
Black people have been 3.4x as likely to be
killed by police as white people in CA from 2013-2024.
 
Latinx people have been 1.4x as likely to be
killed by police as white people in CA from 2013-2024.
 
Native American people have been 1.4x as likely to be
killed by police as white people in CA from 2013-2024.
 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
13.1  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @13    one week ago

Interesting how you chose to link to my comment through. . . an alternative technique.

Also, It is not necessary for you to post stats relative to my comment as I was specifically speaking anecdotally about my experiences with officers and news accountings. 

Lastly, I do not know what point you are hoping to make: Agreement or disagreement with my comment.

In any case, there is a dead airman that is the larger topic here so . . . .

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
13.1.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @13.1    one week ago
Also, It is not necessary for you to post stats relative to my comment as I was specifically speaking anecdotally about my experiences with officers and news accountings. 

Of course it's not necessary, but should a topic this important only be discussed anecdotally?

Lastly, I do not know what point you are hoping to make: Agreement or disagreement with my comment.

I wasn't trying to make a point, only provide relevant data.

In any case, there is a dead airman that is the larger topic here so . . . .

Unfortunately true, but there is an ongoing investigation that folks are reluctant to withhold judgement until it's complete.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
13.1.2  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @13.1.1    one week ago

I was speaking anecdotally to another member.  I am entitled to do so. You don't get to check me on that. You could have kept that two-cents worth of data for someone else without hi-jacking my words for exploitation. I won't be exploited. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
13.1.3  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @13.1.2    one week ago
I was speaking anecdotally to another member.  I am entitled to do so.

Of course you are, and I am entitled to try to bring some data into an important discussion.

I’m sorry that you feel exploited.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
13.2  MrFrost  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @13    one week ago

And at #1 ? Mississippi. A red state, of course...

The places with the highest gun murder rates in 2021 included the District of Columbia (22.3 per 100,000 people), Mississippi (21.2), Louisiana (18.4), Alabama (13.9) and New Mexico (11.7). 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
13.2.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  MrFrost @13.2    one week ago

[]

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
13.2.2  JBB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @13.2.1    one week ago

Yet Mississippi is still majority white and bright MAGA red...

original "Dean van Shoiack, 65 year old leader of the Missouri GOP, is mightily angry because the Missouri House is considering a law banning child marriage. Shojack says that any law which prevents him from marrying a 12 year old is "interference in my God-given right to her ripe and fertile body"...

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
13.2.3  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @13.2.2    one week ago

Google couldn’t find this quote, please help.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
13.2.4  JBB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @13.2.3    one week ago

original

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
13.2.5  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @13.2.4    one week ago

Wish I still had hair like that.

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
13.2.6  Right Down the Center  replied to  JBB @13.2.2    one week ago

Current law allows 16 and 17-year-olds to get married with parental consent.  So once again you are posting bullshit meaningless memes

 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
13.2.7  Texan1211  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @13.2.3    one week ago
Google couldn’t find this quote, please help.

Google isn't very good at finding imaginary things.

Try Googling "Intelligent far left radicals"

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
13.2.8  Texan1211  replied to  Right Down the Center @13.2.6    one week ago
bullshit meaningless memes

Par for the course.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
14  Kavika     one week ago

Airman Fortson is on the phone with his girlfriend, no one else is in his apartment. Then he hears a knock at the door and sees no one through the peephole. Getting concerned he retrieves his handgun and then the second ''open up Sheriff's Department''. Fortson opens the door with a weapon in his hand pointing at the ground and displaying no hostile behavior the Sheriff's deputy opens fire six shots at point blank range, three hit Fortson in the chest and three others in the arm. Then the Sheriff's Deputy decides to tell him to drop the gun which lies some distance from Fortson who is on the floor dying. 

It is not illegal to have a gun in Florida or to have it in your hand in your own home. The Airman did nothing wrong in a criminal sense. His error was to believe that it was OK to open the door. Perhaps he was inexperienced in face-to-face contact with LEOs, too trusting, and sadly knowing that he was innocent of any crime felt that was enough to protect him. A horrible mistake by Airman Fortson that cost him his life.

According to all that is known about the airman he was an outstanding service member with a clean record both in the military and in civilian life. Now, we have a dead airman, a family in shambles, and a brutal time ahead for all involved.

Florida is awash in guns, so I don't see this as the last of this type of shooting. It also seems that the Sheriff dept has had a few questionable incidents in the last years. Lack of training, cowboy department, lack of leadership. At this point who knows but it is generally the civilian that pays the price and more often than not that person is a person from one of the minority groups.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
14.1  Tessylo  replied to  Kavika @14    one week ago

Obviously he was the wrong color.  No other explanation needed.  It's abhorrent how many are defending the scum who shot this man dead for no reason whatsoever

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
15  Kavika     one week ago

In today's world it is best to always remember this:

“Protect your spirit, because you are in the place where spirits get eaten.”

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
16  Drinker of the Wry    one week ago

“Protect Your Spirit, Because You Are In The Place Where Spirits Get Eaten.”

I prefer to drink mine.  I got a bottle of redemption on my shelf,  but you better hurry as rye doesn't last long when I'm saving myself.  Good God almighty I'm glory bound.

 
 
 
Thomas
Senior Guide
17  Thomas    one week ago

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