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Gaza cease-fire talks may be 'last opportunity,' Blinken warns in Israel

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  perrie-halpern  •  2 months ago  •  110 comments

By:   Chantal Da Silva

Gaza cease-fire talks may be 'last opportunity,' Blinken warns in Israel
This may be the "last opportunity" to end Israel's offensive in the Gaza Strip and free the hostages who remain held in the enclave, Secretary of State Antony Blinken warned Monday, leading the push for a deal given new urgency by fears of a wider regional conflict with Iran.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


This may be the "last opportunity" to end Israel's offensive in the Gaza Strip and free the hostages who remain held in the enclave, Secretary of State Antony Blinken warned Monday, leading the push for a deal given new urgency by fears of a wider regional conflict with Iran.

Cease-fire talks have reached a "decisive moment," Blinken said as he met with Israeli leaders on his ninth trip to the Middle East since the fighting began.

Speaking in Tel Aviv ahead of a meeting with Israeli President Isaac Herzog, Blinken said the new round of negotiations were "probably the best, maybe the last, opportunity to get the hostages home, to get a cease-fire and to put everyone on a better path to enduring peace and security."

He then held what he called a "very productive" meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Speaking to reporters after the meeting, Blinken said Netanyahu had accepted a bridging proposal for a cease-fire deal and it was "now incumbent on Hamas to do the same."

The U.S. and fellow mediators have voiced optimism, but the talks have so far failed to produce a clear breakthrough, while Israel and Hamas have blamed each other for the lack of progress.

Negotiations resumed Thursday in Qatar's capital, Doha, and were expected to continue this week in Egyptian capital Cairo. But a spokesperson for Hamastold NBC News on Monday that negotiators for the militant group had no plans to attend the talks.

In a separate statement Sunday, Hamas said Israel had placed new conditions on a framework deal that hampered progress toward reaching an agreement.

Israel also suggested it had clear red lines. "We are conducting negotiations and not a scenario in which we just give and give. The principles we have determined are vital for the security of Israel," Netanyahu said Sunday.

He maintained that those principles were in line with a proposed framework deal outlined by President Joe Biden in late May.

Washington has previously blamed Hamas for holding up efforts to strike a deal, but U.S. and foreign officials have said new conditions introduced by Netanyahu during negotiations have also stifled progress.

Ahead of his meeting with Herzog, Blinken said the focus of his visit to the region and Biden's orders were to "try to get this agreement to the line and ultimately over the line."

"It's also time to make sure that no one takes any steps that could derail this process," he said.

In an interview on BBC News' Radio 4 on Monday morning, Jordanian Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs and Expatriates Ayman Safadi said "all indications" suggested Netanyahu was responsible for having recently "blocked" efforts to secure a cease-fire deal.

Renewed efforts to strike a deal come after the death toll in Gaza reached more than 40,000, including thousands of children, more than 10 months into Israel's offensive in the Palestinian enclave, according to local health officials.

Israel has been accused in the International Court of Justice of genocidal acts in its deadly offensive, which was launched after Hamas' Oct. 7 terror attacks, in which some 1,200 people were killed and around 250 others taken hostage, marking a major escalation in a decadeslong conflict. Both Israel and the United States have rejected the accusations of genocide.

Israeli strikes across Gaza were reported to have killed at least 28 people overnight on Saturday and into Sunday, including young quadruplets, local health officials said. Israel says it only targets militants and blames civilian deaths on Hamas.

Meanwhile, Israeli authorities said an explosion that killed one person and injured another in Tel Aviv on Sunday night was a "terror attack involving the explosion of a powerful explosive."

The person who died in the explosion is believed to be the terrorist who was carrying the bomb, an Israeli security official told NBC News. Hamas' armed wing claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mediators have raced to secure a deal that would not only bring the deadly fighting in Gaza to an end and secure the release of the more than 100 hostages who remain held in the enclave, but also cool rising tensions in the region.

Fears of a broader conflict have soared in recent weeks, with both Iran and a key proxy, Lebanese militant group Hezbollah, vowing revenge against Israel following the targeted killings of two top Hamas and Hezbollah leaders.


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Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1  Buzz of the Orient    2 months ago

Netanyahu has agreed with and endorses the cease fire proposal put forth by the United States.  It is the terrorists that are not accepting its terms, and I can't blame them because they are being supported and backed by so many Americans as well indicated by the number of protesters who are cheering them on.  Why quit when you're winning the war of public opinion (especially among the naive, the gullible, and the many antisemites).  I'm wondering if the American protesters celebrated Oct 7 sharing candies and dancing in the streets same as the terrorists that they are supporting.  

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.1  Vic Eldred  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1    one month ago
Netanyahu has agreed with and endorses the cease fire proposal put forth by the United States.

Correct. And I can only assume that US foreign policy is now in the hands of the Secretary of State.


 It is the terrorists that are not accepting its terms, and I can't blame them because they are being supported and backed by so many Americans as well indicated by the number of protesters who are cheering them on.

Right again. Plus, there is a little item in the agreement that allows Israel to cut off Hamas southern supply route.


I'm wondering if the American protesters celebrated Oct 7 sharing candies and dancing in the streets same as the terrorists that they are supporting.

There was an outrageous tweet from a State Department member on Oct 7th that was quickly taken down. That sympathy for the Palestinians goes further than we know.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
1.2  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1    one month ago
Why quit when you're winning the war of public opinion

Exactly!

That's why Hamas will never agree to peace (because they are winning)

The more Gazans who die, the more world sympathy they get. (And remember-- so many believe that if they are killed "defending Islam" -- they are guaranteed a spot in Paradise).

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2  devangelical    2 months ago

I have total confidence in bibi's ability to derail any peace plan in order to prolong his escape from justice.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
2.1  Greg Jones  replied to  devangelical @2    2 months ago

What crime(s) has Netanyahu committed? Hamas (aka as most of the Palestinians) have steadfastly refused to accept a cease fire and release the few remaining hostages. Hamas' goals have never changed....the destruction of Israel and the killing of all Jews?

Why do a large number of Democrats support Hamas and Islamic terrorism and celebrate Oct 7?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.1  Texan1211  replied to  Greg Jones @2.1    2 months ago

Let the liberals rag on Israel and support the terrorists.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.2  devangelical  replied to  Greg Jones @2.1    2 months ago
Why do a large number of Democrats support Hamas and Islamic terrorism and celebrate Oct 7?

I'm a registered independent. I don't support hamas or any religious terrorism, islamic, jewish, or xtian. I do support religious extremists exterminating each other exclusively. but when that killing involves the collateral damage of innocent victims in the surrounding areas, and my tax dollars are paying for it, that gives me a right to an opinion.

let me give an example based upon your logic and understanding. suppose there was a war between different religious factions in the US. do you think that the collateral damage of blowing up a packed mega church on a sunday morning would be justified if there were a handful of extremists inside? 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.3  Texan1211  replied to  Greg Jones @2.1    2 months ago
Why do a large number of Democrats support Hamas and Islamic terrorism and celebrate Oct 7?

Because it is the latest thing for liberals to become poutraged about, and they think they are fooling others with their faux-concern for Palestinians.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
2.1.4  Greg Jones  replied to  devangelical @2.1.2    2 months ago

No innocent lives in Gaza would have been lost had not several thousand Hamas killers and rapists gone on a murderous rampage that day....yet Israel's response is somehow not justified? Hamas and its supporters are responsible for every last civilian death

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.5  devangelical  replied to  Greg Jones @2.1.4    2 months ago

maybe no terrorists would have gone on a murderous rampage without being provoked by other acts of violence and illegal land grabs. we can play the tit for tat revenge game back for almost 3 millennium in that region. I answered your questions, now you can answer mine.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.1.6  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  devangelical @2.1.2    2 months ago

You didn't complete the picture, Dev.  The extremists and their UNWRA cohorts have already poisoned the minds of all who are in the Church against the attackers and that church's religion commands them to fight the attackers and kill them and the extremists are using the others as human shields and many are willingly helping them anyway.,  NOW tell your story again.  

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.1.7  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  devangelical @2.1.5    2 months ago

Where did you get your knowledge of history from, Der Stormer?  I answered your question about the invasion of the mega-church.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.8  devangelical  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.1.6    one month ago

is that church on stolen land?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.9  JohnRussell  replied to  Greg Jones @2.1.4    one month ago
Hamas and its supporters are responsible for every last civilian death

absurd .  Lets say a band of Indians killed some settlers in the old west, which I'm sure happened. Are they responsible for "every last death" in the resulting years of U. S. troopers killing of Indian women and children ?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.1.10  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  devangelical @2.1.8    one month ago

So to you Israel is on stolen land?  Don't bother replying to anything further that I post, because I don't reply to filthy shit. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.1.11  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.9    one month ago
"Lets say a band of Indians killed some settlers in the old west, which I'm sure happened. Are they responsible for "every last death" in the resulting years of U. S. troopers killing of Indian women and children ?"

How about if we were to apply the same situation to your scenario as it is with Hamas.  Let's suppose the Indians viciously attacked the troopers and the settlers they are protecting first, raped the women, decapitated the men, cooked the babies alive and kidnapped hostages.  Then they hid among their civilians, using them as human shields, with the assistance and complicity and hiding places such as the schools and churches provided by the pro-Indian missionaries.  And that they had already proven that they continue to break ceasefire after ceasefire so that the troopers have learned that the Indians will not give up their religious commandment to fight and kill every trooper and settler, and notwithstanding being responsible for the safety of their own Incian innocents, and knowing that they could not possibly end up winning the war, the Indians refuse to surrender in order to stop the bloodshed but keep firing at the settlers.

Now that that is an equal situation, what's your opinion now?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.12  devangelical  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.1.10    one month ago
So to you Israel is on stolen land?

no, the illegal settlements are on stolen land, and gaza looks like it's getting a new landlord. bibi has bet the kibbutz on trump in the US election, again, only this time they're both trying to stay out of jail. bibi doesn't want peace and he doesn't give a fuck about the 10/7 hostages, his pal at mar-a-lardo has already asked him to drag his feet on the cease fire and hostage exchange.

I'll reply to anyone I feel like here, until perrie asks me not to...

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.13  devangelical  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.1.11    one month ago
they continue to break ceasefire after ceasefire

they continue to burn out and kill residents, steal land, and build illegal settlements...

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.14  Texan1211  replied to  Greg Jones @2.1.4    one month ago
Hamas and its supporters are responsible for every last civilian death

Yes, they sure are.

I just don't get how anyone can support terrorists.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.1.15  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.14    one month ago

Amazingly, you can see them right here on NT.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.16  Texan1211  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.1.15    one month ago
Amazingly, you can see them right here on NT.

Rather sadly, it really isn't amazing, just kind of expected now.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.17  devangelical  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.14    one month ago
I just don't get how anyone can support terrorists.

I get it. if the shit ever hits the fan, I don't see maga being separated out from republicans either ...

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.1.18  Texan1211  replied to  devangelical @2.1.17    one month ago

Your post proves otherwise.

Guess those terrorists best get on board the cease fire and return the hostages, eh, while some are still alive.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.19  Krishna  replied to  devangelical @2.1.8    one month ago

Is that church on stolen land?

Well. many people are saying that Israel has too much land.

To put it in perspective, here's a size comparison between the size of Israel-- and that of Egypt:

256
 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.20  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @2.1.19    one month ago

Well. many people are saying that Israel has too much land.

256

But not many people are saying that Egypt has too much land.

Why?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.21  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @2.1.20    one month ago
But not many people are saying that Egypt has too much land. Why?

Perhaps they are saying that California has too much land? 

Here's a size comparison map:

256

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.22  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @2.1.20    one month ago
But not many people are saying that Egypt has too much land. Why?

And FWIW-- there are approximately 21 Arab countries-- many of which are hostile towards the U.S. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.23  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @2.1.22    one month ago
And FWIW-- there are approximately 21 Arab countries-- many of which are hostile towards the U.S

In addition, (this may come as a surprise to many Americans) in addition to Arab countries, there are many non-Arab but predominantly Muslim countries in the world! (Fifty-Seven the last I looked).

They are not all hostile towards the U.S.-- but many are.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.24  Krishna  replied to  devangelical @2.1.12    one month ago
and gaza looks like it's getting a new landlord. bibi has bet the kibbutz on trump in the US election,

Many people are unaware of it, but Gaza was occupied-- by Egypt. And Egypt treated the "palestinians" terribly. But refused to leave...

Then, as a result of war-- Israel kicked Egypt out-- and they occupied Gaza.

But in  Israel unilaterally ended their occupation of Gaza-- voluntarily!

When did Israel exit Gaza?
With the implementation of the plan, IDF installations and forces were removed and over 9000 Israeli citizens living in 25 settlements were evicted. By 22 September 2005, Israel's withdrawal from the entire Gaza Strip to the 1967 Green Line, and the eviction of the four settlements in Samaria, was completed.
Since 2005 there have been no settlements in Gaza-- and not a single Jew living there.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.1.25  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @2.1.19    one month ago

Well, Krishna, ss much as I understand the point you are making, there is at least one member of NT who doesn't hesitate to post his antisemitic views about Israel who might argue that Egypt has more than 10 times the population of Israel. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.1.26  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @2.1.21    one month ago

And the antisemites would make a similar point about California, so that argument isn't as effective as your one that compares Israel with ALL Muslim lands.  

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.1.27  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @2.1.22    one month ago
"And FWIW-- there are approximately 21 Arab countries-- many of which are hostile towards the U.S."  

Yes, obviously there are a LOT of Americans who are more supportive, or equally supportive with America's enemies in the Middle East as they might say they are of Israel. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.1.28  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @2.1.24    one month ago
Since 2005 there have been no settlements in Gaza-- and not a single Jew living there.

Well, Krishna, you know very well that when it comes to being fair, i.e. supporting terrorists equally with or more than Israel, ignorance of facts is bliss.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.29  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.1.25    one month ago
who might argue that Egypt has more than 10 times the population of Israel. 

The reason I mentioned the sizes of their respective lands because people were talking about Israel falsely being accused of stealing land.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.1.30  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @2.1.29    one month ago

Israel wasn't falsely being accused of stealing land, Israel was actually being accused of stealing land.  In fact the accusation goes so far as to accuse Israel that an intention is to "take over" Gaza.  IMO when a defending nation is attacked, and the defending nation conquers lands of the attacker in its fight to defend itself, those conquered lands should become the sovereign lands of the defending nation.  For example, I believe Israel is entitled to annex the Golan Heights, the West Bank and all of Jerusalem, in which case Israel can no longer be accused of being mere "occupiers".

And of course it is absolute historical hypocrisy for Americans to accuse others of "stealing land".  

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.31  devangelical  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.1.30    one month ago
IMO when a defending nation is attacked, and the defending nation conquers lands of the attacker in its fight to defend itself, those conquered lands should become the sovereign lands of the defending nation.

feel free to leave the keys to canada under the mat at the front door...

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.1.32  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  devangelical @2.1.31    one month ago

Yes, and maybe the armed forces from Canada should have taken possession of the White House instead of burning it in 1814 during the war when the Americans unsuccessfully invaded Canada in 1812.  When I toured the White House I was actually surprised that the tour guide openly admitted the incident. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.33  Krishna  replied to  devangelical @2.1.5    one month ago
PART I
maybe no terrorists would have gone on a murderous rampage without being provoked by other acts of violence and illegal land grabs.

Let's start with some actual facts:

In 1948 there was supposed to be a partition of The British Mandate of Palestine--. part of it (basically most of the "middle' of the area) was supposed to become a modern Jewish country (Israel), a re-creation of the Jews' ancient homeland of "Judea".

And two areas on either side (Gaza to the West, & the "West Bank" on the East  were to become a new creation-- an Arab state to be called Palestine.

If that happened as mandated, there would've been two countries there: "Palestine" and "Israel".

So what actually happened?

(cont'd in next comment)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.34  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @2.1.33    one month ago
PART II
So what actually happened? (cont'd in next comment)

Part Two (continued from previous comment).

Supposeldy there would be two countries-- an Arab country ("Palestine") & a Jewish country (Israel). Not totally perfect, but a pretty good solution.

UNfortunately the surrounding Arab countries (Lebanon, Syria, the Hashemit Kingdom of Trans-Jordan, and Egypt) didn't want this compromise-- they wanted it all to be Arab!

(And what really pissed them off: they wanted the entire Middle East to be Muslim-- there was already one non-Muslim country in the area-- if Israel survived that would make two! jrSmiley_5_smiley_image.png

(Cont'd in next comment as "Part 3")

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.35  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @2.1.34    one month ago
PART III
(And what really pissed them off: they wanted the entire Middle East to be Muslim-- there was already one non-Muslim country in the area-- if Israel survived that would make two! (Cont'd in next comment as "Part 3")

So what did they do? The four surrounding Arab countries, (plus Iraq) attacked Israel with the goal of "driving the Jews into the Sea).

The jews, meanwhile, were becoming annoyed with attempts to  exterminate  them and fought bravely. 

When the fighting stopped, Israel maintained it territory (and gained a small amount)>

But what happed to Gaza & the West bank (supposed to become a "Palestine"?) Wekk when the fighting stoppedEgypt ended up occupying Gaza-- and the hashemite kingdom of Jordan ended up occupying the West bank.

So no new country ("Palestine" was created-- becsause that land was now occupied (Gaza by Egypt) the West bank by what was now called, simply, Jordan.)

Before I continue, this would be a good point to answer any questions...

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.36  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @2.1.35    one month ago
So no new country ("Palestine" was created-- becsause that land was now occupied (Gaza by Egypt) the West bank by what was now called, simply, Jordan.) Before I continue, this would be a good point to answer any questions..

PART IV

No quesions? OK, so let's proceed:

Egypt had been occupying Gaza and the West bank was now occupied by Jordan--thereby preventing the establishment of a new country ("Palestine").

Then, in 1967 another war broke out! Called "the Six day War, the Arab countries in the area were soundly defeated by Israel. Al ot of things happened, but let's stick to the topic (Israel/Palestine):

At the beginning of the war, Egypt was still occupying gaza, Jordan occupying the West Bank. By the end of the War Israel kicked Egypt out of Gaza-- now Israel was occying Gaza.

israel also kicked Jordan out of the West Bank-- Israel ended up occupying the West bank.

(Cont'd in Part 5, below)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.37  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @2.1.36    one month ago
israel also kicked Jordan out of the West Bank-- Israel ended up occupying the West bank.

PART V

The israeli occupation of Gaza lasted up until 2005. Normally we might think life under occupation would be a hardship-- but under israeli occupation Gaza prospered. The were settlements and large agriculturaldevelopment-- most emplying Gazans at good wages.

But in 2005 the Israeli government decided that Israel would withdraw-- 100% -- from the Gaza strip. 

Since that time the Palestinians in Gaza had complete self rule. (it was really an independent country, a "Palestine"  but they didn't want to admit that. Here's what happened next (once Israel ended its occupation of Gaza). (I'm getting tired of typing so here's a copy & paste from an external article):

Israel's Disengagement from Gaza and North Samaria (2005)

Israel's plan of unilateral disengagement from the Gaza Strip and North Samaria put forward by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was carried out on 15 August 2005. The purpose of the plan was to improve Israel's security and international status in the absence of peace negotiations with the Palestinians.

With the implementation of the plan, IDF installations and forces were removed and over 9000 Israeli citizens living in 25 settlements were evicted. By 22 September 2005, Israel's withdrawal from the entire  Gaza Strip to the 1967 Green Line, and the eviction of the four settlements in Samaria, was completed.

In June 2007 Hamas took over the Gaza Strip from the Palestinian Authority. Many thousands of rockets and mortar shells have been fired from the Gaza Strip onto southern Israeli towns and villages, terrorizing and destabilizing the lives of hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens.

More later. 

And I will bring up to date the situation in the West Bank.

Also about the Kibbutzim near the Gaza border that Hamas hit the hardest where they perpetrated the most gruesome tortures.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.1.38  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @2.1.37    one month ago

Thanks Krishna, cause obviously some Israel disparagers need a history lesson.  Looking forward to the continuation, after which I will relate some of my PERSONAL experiences (something those who are critical of Israel have not had the benefit of).

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.39  Vic Eldred  replied to  Krishna @2.1.23    one month ago

How many of them are democracies?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.40  Tessylo  replied to  devangelical @2.1.13    one month ago

John Oliver covered this very well on an episode not too long ago.  It's unbelievable.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.41  Krishna  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.1    one month ago
Let the liberals rag on Israel and support the terrorists.

But remember-- a lot of israelis are "liberals".

Its hard to believe now-- but the founders of Israel were leftists!.( Strongly Socialist!)

(Many of the Kibutzim that were the main victims of the Gazans October 7 attack were built close to the Gaza border. And like most Kibbutzniks, they were mainly quite left-wing in their views.

But the atrocities committed by the gazans were deliberately unusually brutal.

: The day was labeled the bloodiest in  Israel's history  and the 'deadliest for Jews since  the Holocaust ' by many figures and media outlets in the West, including United States president  Joe Biden . [ 56 ] [ 57 ] [ 58 ] [ 59 ]  Some have  called  the attack a  genocidal massacre  against Israelis. [ 60 ] [ 61 ] [ 62 ]

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.42  Krishna  replied to  devangelical @2.1.2    one month ago
I don't support hamas or any religious terrorism, islamic, jewish, or xtian.

Exactly!

it's bad to support any form of religious terrorism-- but a wonderful thing to support non-religious based terrorism!

The more terrorism the better, eh? jrSmiley_28_smiley_image.gif

(As long as its not "religiously based"!!!)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.43  Krishna  replied to  devangelical @2.1.8    one month ago

Is that church on stolen land?

No-- the gazans did not "steal" the land of Gaza. 

Rather they sort of.."inherited it" when Israel unilaterally (and totally) ended its occupation of Gaza long ago ! (2005):

  Israel's plan of unilateral disengagement from the Gaza Strip and North Samaria put forward by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was carried out on 15 August 2005. The purpose of the plan was to improve Israel's security and international status in the absence of peace negotiations with the Palestinians.
With the implementation of the plan, IDF installations and forces were removed and over 9000 Israeli citizens living in 25 settlements were evicted.
By 22 September 2005, Israel's withdrawal from the entire  Gaza Strip to the 1967 Green Line, and the eviction of the four settlements in Samaria, was completed.
In June 2007 Hamas took over the Gaza Strip from the Palestinian Authority. Many thousands of rockets and mortar shells have been fired from the Gaza Strip onto southern Israeli towns and villages, terrorizing and destabilizing the lives of hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens.
(

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.44  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.1.25    one month ago
Well, Krishna, ss much as I understand the point you are making, there is at least one member of NT who doesn't hesitate to post his antisemitic views about Israel who might argue that Egypt has more than 10 times the population of Israel. 

Actually, IMNSHO)  its not a primarily a matter of population-- but rather the size of the land involved. If conquered and occupied illegally (or even annexed) that's relevant-- regardless of the size of the population.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.45  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.1.30    one month ago
In fact the accusation goes so far as to accuse Israel that an intention is to "take over" Gaza. 

Key fact: Gaza was occupied by Egypt-- (one thing that was preventing the formation of a new country that had nevedr existed before- to be called "Palestine").

And of course the opther thing that prevented that was the illegal occupation of the West Bank by Jordan.  

Then Israel did indeed kick Egypt out of Gaza. Gaza had been occupied by Egypt-- then it became occupied by Israel..

However, some time later Israel (on its own without any external pressure) totally left Gaza-- then therewasn't a single Jew in the entire place! So fromthat day on, Gaza is totally controlled (and governed) by a terrorist organization.

Some Gazans supported Hamas, other opposed it (but were terrified to speak out because that risked being caught and subject to horrible tortures by Hamas)

So IMO it would be fair to say that the eventual "stealers" of Gaza were...Hamas!

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.46  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @2.1.23    one month ago
there are many non-Arab but predominantly Muslim countries in the world!

Two predominantly Muslin countries that are not Arab: Iran, and Turkey.

(Islam is a religion-- "Arab" I supposed could be called an "ehtnicity"-- so Arabs can actually be any religion!)

So what does "Arab" mean? 

It means an inhabitant of Arabia (The Arabian Peninsula)-- 

or

Someone who is decended from inhabitants of Arabia!

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.47  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @2.1.46    one month ago
Two predominantly Muslin countries that are not Arab: Iran, and Turkey.

So what ethnicity are Iranians?

While the religion in Iran is predominantly Muslim, most Iranians are not Arabs-- they are descended from the ancient Persians! (Over time I've has "Iranian" friends-- immigrants from the Middle East. They are very proud of their heritage-- eveyone I've known doesn't like to be called "Iranian"-- they insist on being called "Persians" (Or "Persian-Americans").

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.48  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @2.1.47    one month ago
Two predominantly Muslin countries that are not Arab: Iran, and Turkey.
So what ethnicity are Iranians? While the religion in Iran is predominantly Muslim, most Iranians are not Arabs-- they are descended from the ancient Persians! (Over time I've has "Iranian" friends-- immigrants from the Middle East. They are very proud of their heritage-- eveyone I've known doesn't like to be called "Iranian"-- they insist on being called "Persians" (Or "Persian-Americans")

And here's a fact that might surprise people: while the current Iranian gov't is extremely anti-Israel, (as well as horribly persecuting their own Muslim female citizens)-- their government treats their Jewish citizens fairly well (unlike most Arab governments).

Exception: If Iranian Jews spread pro-Israel sentiments of course they are persecuted by the gov't. But the mere fact of being Jewish is pretty widely accepted (quite different than most Arab countries). 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.49  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @2.1.46    one month ago
wo predominantly Muslin countries that are not Arab: Iran, and Turkey.

So while Turks are mostly Muslim-- they are also not Arabs! (Most of them do not descend from inhabitants of Arabia like Arabs do).

So what is their ethnicity? They are called "Turkic peoples". Many are a descended from Asian peoples-- including Mongolians!

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.50  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.1.26    one month ago
And the antisemites would make a similar point about California, so that argument isn't as effective as your one that compares Israel with ALL Muslim lands. 

Perhaps.

But unlike many people here, my goal is not primarily to win arguments.

(But if you want the world map I will look for it).

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.51  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @2.1.50    one month ago
But if you want the world map I will look for it).

Here it is. 

Muslim countries shown in Green. 

And Israel's "vast empire" (Of so-called "illegally stolen lands") shown in Red.

(I am not going to spend more time looking for population statistics because in my opinion that's not really related) :

1.Map is cut off on the right-- there's more Islamic land there-- especially the very large predominently Muslim country of Indonesia.

2. India is not shown as Muslim as it predominently Hindu. However IIRC it is now the #1 country in the word (population)-- so it actually ranks as one of the countries with the highest number of Muslims!

Israel and the Muslim World - Size Comparison Map

256

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.52  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @2.1.51    one month ago
Of so-called "illegally stolen lands") shown in Red.

israelis, like any people,have their strengths and weaknesses. They excel at many things, but based on the land area  they control  (shown in Red on size comparison map)-- one thing they are terrible at is stealing land. 

When it comes to "stealing' land they are obviously total failures!

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.53  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @2.1.52    one month ago
sraelis, like any people,have their strengths and weaknesses. They excel at many things, but based on the land area  they control  (shown in Red on size comparison map)-- one thing they are terrible at is stealing land.  When it comes to "stealing' land they are obviously total failures!

In the unlikely event that I ever want any land stolen-- please remind me not to call the Israelis!

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.1.54  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @2.1.41    one month ago
"(Many of the Kibutzim that were the main victims of the Gazans October 7 attack were built close to the Gaza border. And like most Kibbutzniks, they were mainly quite left-wing in their views."

I have spoken of MY personal experiences in Israel, but I also know that nobody on this site knows Israeli Kibbutzim better than you.  So I know that YOU know that the form of ideal socialism on a kibbutz puts the so-called socialism of Communist nations way down the road.  

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.1.55  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @2.1.48    one month ago
"And here's a fact that might surprise people: while the current Iranian gov't is extremely anti-Israel, (as well as horribly persecuting their own Muslim female citizens)"

The Iranian treatment of their own Muslim female citizens PALES when compared to the unbelievably primitive manner that the Taliban in Afghanistan treat their Muslim female citizens.  

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.1.56  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @2.1.51    one month ago

Are we going to give out prizes to those who can find Israel on the map?  Actually I would limit the prizes to only those who know that Israel is the only place in the whole world where Jews can openly live their religion entirely freely, even if free of antisemitism (which exists almost universally).  

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.1.57  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @2.1.53    one month ago
"In the unlikely event that I ever want any land stolen-- please remind me not to call the Israelis!"

I will repeat what I said above.

IMO when a defending nation is attacked, and the defending nation conquers lands of the attacker in its fight to defend itself, those conquered lands should become the sovereign lands of the defending nation.  For example, I believe Israel is entitled to annex the Golan Heights, the West Bank (Judea and Samaria) and all of Jerusalem, in which case Israel can no longer be accused of being mere "occupiers".   And of course it is absolute historical hypocrisy for Americans to accuse others of "stealing land". 

It should be obvious that when I said "Americans" I did NOT mean Native Americans.  

If the United Nations were not so antisemitic it would agree with my opinion.  

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.2  Texan1211  replied to  devangelical @2    2 months ago

Sure wish some evidence of these alleged crimes was presented, but I realize that is asking for far too much.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.2.1  devangelical  replied to  Texan1211 @2.2    2 months ago

you have the same access to that information that I have and it's not my problem if you don't wish to learn it on your own.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.2.2  Texan1211  replied to  devangelical @2.2.1    2 months ago

It is proving difficult to find evidence supporting fantasy, but I will gladly look at your links.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.2.3  devangelical  replied to  Texan1211 @2.2.2    2 months ago
I will gladly look at your link

that's what she said ...

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.2.4  Texan1211  replied to  devangelical @2.2.3    2 months ago

[]

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.2.5  devangelical  replied to  Texan1211 @2.2.4    2 months ago

[]

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.2.6  Krishna  replied to  Texan1211 @2.2    one month ago
Sure wish some evidence of these alleged crimes was presented, but I realize that is asking for far too much.

Bill Maher has an unusually good video on the situation:

New Rule: From the River to the Sea | Real Time with Bill Maher (HBO)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.2.7  Krishna  replied to  Texan1211 @2.2    one month ago
Sure wish some evidence of these alleged crimes was presented

There was-- a lot of direct evidence.

For example, many of the Gaza terrorists wore Go-Pros on their heads. (rather than wanting to cover up the mass rapes and tortures, the terrorists actually wanted to record what they did. many broasdcast what they saw-- some iof these were recorded by the Israelis). 

(For example, after an Israeli  woman was subject to mass rape by the Gaza "resistance", many were beaten, taken into Gaza, and paraded around in front of crowds who further beat them with sticks). 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.2.8  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @2.2.6    one month ago
New Rule: From the River to the Sea | Real Time with Bill Maher (HBO)

I don't watch Bill Maher very often-- usually just on the rare occasions where someone emails me a link (or occasionally when I search for a word and Maher pops up)

The first thing that struck about this video was that I was really surprised at how much #BillMaher knew about the situation in the Middle East. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.2.9  Krishna  replied to  Texan1211 @2.2    one month ago
Sure wish some evidence of these alleged crimes was presented, but I realize that is asking for far too much.

Actually (to my surprise!) one of the best sources of that information-- along with explanations,  is the Maher video (comment # 2, 2, 6.) although I realize some people feel that its "politically incorrect" to actually watch a short video before commenting on it.

jrSmiley_5_smiley_image.png

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
2.3  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  devangelical @2    2 months ago
I have total confidence in bibi's ability to derail any peace plan

Just like I have total confidence that the Palestinians will, again, violate any cease fire that is agreed upon then cry victim (again).  

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.3.1  Texan1211  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @2.3    2 months ago

I really don't get why so many liberals support the terrorists.  Are they really that ignorant, or just jumping on the bandwagon to support The Squad?

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
2.3.2  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Texan1211 @2.3.1    2 months ago

I think its a matter of that they are ignorant enough to jump on the band wagon.  Remember these are people ignore facts especially when they get the chance to play victim for virtually EVERYTHING.  

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.3.3  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Texan1211 @2.3.1    2 months ago

It could be for the same reason that so many Republicans support Trump.  Doesn't matter how monstrous they are, as long as it helps to give them the power to fulfill their desired destiny of destroying their opposition. 

By the way, I'm not criticizing ALL Republicans.  I think ones like Liz Cheney and Mitt Romney are decent people, along with any others who realize that Trump isn't. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.3.4  Texan1211  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.3.3    2 months ago

Fair enough,

I'm a Republican who doesn't support Trump  and thinks women should have the right to an abortion until the last trimester (with some exceptions) .

I don't think that makes me a bad Republican or maybe not even all that rare.

     

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.3.5  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Texan1211 @2.3.4    2 months ago

I don't consider you a bad Republican - I've noted that making common sense is a lot more important to you than the unshakeable cult loyalty that others on this site are infected with. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.3.6  Texan1211  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.3.5    2 months ago

Thank you.

I find it hard to take anyone seriously who agrees with everything their party does.

To me, implying that because you are a member of a party, that makes you in agreement and supportive of each position of the party is just making lazy assumptions, as most people are really in the middle on a lot of issues, especially not ones not particularly applicable to them.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.3.7  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.3.3    one month ago

Having just watched the last day of the DNC convention live I'll add Adam Kinzinger's name to the list of decent Republicans.  There must be more, but unfortunately they're probably afraid of being dealt with like Liz Cheney was. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.3.8  Vic Eldred  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.3.3    one month ago
as long as it helps to give them the power to fulfill their desired destiny of destroying their opposition. 

You really think that is the motive?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.3.9  devangelical  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.3.5    one month ago
unshakeable cult loyalty

blind abrahamic religious devotion in general ...

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.3.10  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.3.3    one month ago
By the way, I'm not criticizing ALL Republicans.  I think ones like Liz Cheney and Mitt Romney are decent people, along with any others who realize that Trump isn't. 

Obviously not all Republicans are MAGA types. 

Another example is Adam Kinziger (who appeared at the DNC)

Former Republican lawmaker offers a blistering assessment of Trump in his DNC speech

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.3.11  Krishna  replied to  devangelical @2.3.9    one month ago
blind abrahamic religious devotion in general ...

Hinduism is not an "Abrahamic religion".

Neither is Buddism.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.3.12  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @2.3.11    one month ago

Actually I'm quite comfortable living in a home in which Buddhism is celebrated.  We have a small shrine with a small statue of GuanYin, the Goddess of Mercy, in front of which my wife lights incense and prays on special Buddhist days.  

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.3.13  Krishna  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @2.3    one month ago
I have total confidence in bibi's ability to derail any peace plan
Just like I have total confidence that the Palestinians will, again, violate any cease fire that is agreed upon then cry victim (again).  

When Netanyahu is finally out of office, Israeli policy will change significantly.

However regardless of circumstances,its almost a certainty that the actions of the "Palestinians" will not change.

Why? becsause its not a case of them wanting peace and their own country. No-- as long as there are kafir ("unbelievers") in that area their violence will never stop.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.3.14  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @2.3.13    one month ago

...and as long as their bible, the Koran, commands them to fight the Jews and kill them.  There is as much likelihood of the Koran changing its words as there are that the bible would. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.3.15  Vic Eldred  replied to  Texan1211 @2.3.1    one month ago
Are they really that ignorant, or just jumping on the bandwagon to support The Squad?

It is what is being taught at the university IE: history via a Marxist perspective.

Thus, Israel is the oppressor, and the Palestinians are the oppressed.

That is what they were taught.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.3.16  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.3.15    one month ago

Did you go to college, excuse me, the University?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.3.17  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.3.12    one month ago
Actually I'm quite comfortable living in a home in which Buddhism is celebrated.  We have a small shrine with a small statue of GuanYin, the Goddess of Mercy, in front of which my wife lights incense and prays on special Buddhist days.

I wonder if its wise to mention that on social media (Because Buddhism is a religion the haters will direct some of their hostility towards you!)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.3.18  Krishna  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.3.15    one month ago
It is what is being taught at the university IE: history via a Marxist perspective

True in some cases.

(Of course it depends upon which school you attend-- and in some cases which particular professors you choose).

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.3.19  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.3.12    one month ago

We have a small shrine with a small statue of GuanYin, the Goddess of Mercy,

As I believed i've mentioned. a while back I Feng Shui'd my home. (Although I hardly consider myself to be an "expert")

 When I did that I I purchased two "cures'-- a carved wooden Dragon of colurse. And I was going to get a representation of GuanYin (who I really liked) but in the spirit of Ecumenicism I decided to wait & got a reprersentation of Lakschmi instead. 

Llakschmi is not a Buddhist figure, but rather she is Hindu (although many Buddhist denominations observe practices that were originally Hindu. For example-- Yoga!)  

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.3.20  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.3.3    one month ago
I think ones like Liz Cheney and Mitt Romney are decent people, along with any others who realize that Trump isn't. 

Are you by any chance familiar with The Lincoln Project?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.3.21  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @2.3.17    one month ago
"I wonder if its wise to mention that on social media (Because Buddhism is a religion the haters will direct some of their hostility towards you!)"

Although I'm not a Buddhist, I'm quite comfortable being surrounded by and living with them.  I'm also quite used to hostility directed towards me, having experienced it from the time I joined NewsVine up to the present time.  

Much of the hostility against me occurs because I correct their misconceptions about China, since those who criticize me have never stepped one foot in China in their life but rely on the lies told by the politicians who are trying to sow hatred in order to benefit themselves, while I have been living here for 18 years, and have been married to a Chinese woman for almost 16 years.  However, that does not mean that I have not taken the risk of posting on NT my criticism of the CPC when I have noted some wrong things I think it does.  But if the detractors are going to hypocritically bring up history, the history of their own nations is not so lily white either.

And some of the hostility against me occurs because I have very obviously been a most staunch supporter of Israel, but not necessarily its Prime Minister, and again I may say that IMO every nation has its warts, but misquoting George Orwell, some nations' warts are more horrid than others.  

What do I do about it?  When the moderators take note of their harassing me they impose a restriction against communication between us (which I am quite happy with), and I usually just ignore them and .  I'm quite happy not having to deal with their vitriol and bullshit. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.3.22  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @2.3.20    one month ago

Not in the slightest.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
3  Drinker of the Wry    one month ago
blind abrahamic religious devotion in general ...

Were you disturbed by all the references to God this week at the DNC?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1  Texan1211  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3    one month ago

Were there any?

I figured we would have heard all about the audacity of thumpers by now.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.1.1  Krishna  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1    one month ago
Were there any?

Yes.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.2  Texan1211  replied to  Krishna @3.1.1    one month ago

Strange then that we didn't hear one single complaint about Democratic thumpers then.

Are you sure?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.2  Krishna  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3    one month ago
Were you disturbed by all the references to God this week at the DNC?

People are saying they don't believe in God.

Because they are all Communists.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.2.1  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @3.2    one month ago
People are saying they don't believe in God. Because they are all Communists.

One of the many stupid things that "people are saying"!

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
3.3  devangelical  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3    one month ago

continued breathing by all religious extremists disturbs me...

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
4  charger 383    one month ago

Let Israel finish the job so there will be less problems later 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1  Texan1211  replied to  charger 383 @4    one month ago

I never have figured out why some think we need to be involved in how Israel conducts its own war, or why we should be the ones negotiating peace.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
4.1.1  Krishna  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1    one month ago
I never have figured out why some think we need to be involved in how Israel conducts its own war, or why we should be the ones negotiating peace.

Its because there are countries in the world that could pose a significan danger to the U.S.: Russia and Iran are two such countries and there are others,

In the event of a major war, good allies can be quite helpful. And that means NATO memberrs..as well as Israel-- and a few others.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
4.2  devangelical  replied to  charger 383 @4    one month ago

ceasefire? issue steel kippahs and uzis to bibi and his pals in the knesset at a gaza checkpoint and get one within the hour...

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1  Krishna  replied to  Greg Jones @5    one month ago
BREAKING: Israel Announces State of Emergency After Airstrikes Target Hezbollah Terror Targets (townhall.com)

The situation on Israel's Northern border is a bit unusual. One one hand, neither Israel nor Iran (Hezb'allah is a proxy for Iran) wants it to escalate. But on the other hand, both Israel and Hizb'Allah feel they must retaliate if there's even a relatively minor strike from the other side. (Both feel not responding makes them look weak)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
6  Krishna    one month ago

Gaza cease-fire talks may be 'last opportunity,' Blinken warns in Israel

Correct!

Of course its one of many "last opportunities".

(As anyone familiar with The Middkle East knows, there have been so many "last opportunities" in the past...and there will be many. many  more "last opportunities" in the future!)

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @6    one month ago

Concerning the latest cease-fire talks, Hamas and even Egypt do not agree with Israel's requirement that they remain at the Rafah Crossing and Philadelphi Corridor between Egypt and Gaza.  Anyone who is ignorant enough to think that they have NOT been the main routes for smuggling weapons into Gaza and will continue to be so without Israelis guarding them needs to go back to kindergarten and start from scratch growing a brain.  IMO there will not be an end to this war until every Hamas militant has met with his 72 virgins in the Garden of Allah.  

 
 

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