Democracy in Action
Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…
-- Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947
I've read many post-mortems since the election, including those here on NT's Front Page. Here are two others that are worth reading:
Maureen Dowd, venomous as always: Democrats and the Case of Mistaken Identity Politics
Amanda Taub's imagery is clever: America’s Wobbly Democracy
But... I haven't seen what I think is the simple truth.
A significant part of Americans want a fascist dictatorship.
Another significant part doesn't mind having a fascist dictatorship. Together, the two groups have elected one of theirs.
It seems to me that probably most people in both these groups don't really understand what a fascist dictatorship will be. But of course... not understanding something in no way prevents wanting it.
We see representatives of both these groups here on NT. It's hard to distinguish between them. MAGAs in the real world have become pretty open about what they want... but here in a "civilized" forum, it would be frowned on to scream "Hang the niggers!" So we see charming circumlocutions.
Flowery speech doesn't matter. The Republican American Fascist Party has the Presidency, the Supreme Court, and both Houses of Congress. The President-elect has clearly stated that his supporters will never have to vote again, and the American Fascist Party has in hand all the levers of power he needs to make that true.
We watched the fall of the Soviet Empire, and now we will watch the end of democracy in America. This is nothing new: all previous democracies have eventually fallen to demagogues elected by the people.
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I dont think Trump voters want a fascist dictatorship , they want "their" country back , and are willing to let Trump be Trump in order to achieve that.
I will enjoy watching them squirm when they find out just how integral those who they voted to deport are to the way of life they enjoyed in “their” country. I predict we will spend unfathomable amounts of money deporting people who we will end up encouraging to come back.
That's true for those who "don't mind having a fascist dictatorship".
But as I said, their understanding of what they have done does not matter. They have done it... and I can see no way to undo it.
It'd be great if progressives stopped making the category error of conflating populism with fascism.
A good hint. If you are fighting against regulation of speech, you aren't a fascist.
"Populism", real or fake, has been a constant component of every fascist movement.
This isn't a circumlocution. It's a different kind of sleight of hand. It sounds true... but in fact doesn't mean anything at all. It's a derailing tool.
Yeah, if there's one thing fascist regimes are known for, it's a commitment to free speech. You got me.
When you, and others with your views, are prohibited from spreading all the latest anti-trump conspiracies and calling him every name in the book, you can start talking about fascism.
Flip: Trump is controlled by anarcho capitalists!
Flop: Trump's restoring fascism!
It's amusing to watch people utterly butcher terms.
I never know, when chatting with a MAGA, whether they understand the logical fallacies they use so blithely. "Intelligence" probably has little to do with it.
We are all very capable of inventing arguments that defend what we want to defend... without worrying too much about their validity.
We've known each other for a long time. I know you at least a bit. Your skill at misdirection is... skillful...
Derailing is probably an unconscious reflex.
C'mon Sean... You don't have to dissemble any more!
You won. You can be open! You can say what you really mean.
"He who controls the language controls the masses" Saul Alinsky.
That's why the left keeps trying to redefine the meaning of words. If you can control that you can control how people think.
Frank Luntz
Even if that were true, it is nowhere near as bad as ad hominem attacks, which are used by those who can't actually speak to the issue due to a lack of a coherent argument.
Don't worry. He knows how to do that, too.
Ah, I see. It has been so long since I engaged with you, I had forgotten how you participate. Noted.
Trump knows the best words. He has told us so.
I dont think so. A simple case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.
It depends on what the definition of “is” is.
He's putin's little idiot and puppet. Always has been. I mean look at all the calls (that we know of) since he was 'president' and the failed insurrection he incited.
Which one was that and who was charged with inciting an insurrection?
That is why the right rushes to mock. People feel 'touched' and spotlighted.
Here, let's make it simple then...
Fascism ( / ˈ f æ ʃ ɪ z əm / FASH -iz-əm ) is a far-right , authoritarian , and ultranationalist political ideology and movement, [ 1 ] [ 2 ] [ 3 ] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy , militarism , forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy , subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race , and strong regimentation of society and the economy. [ 2 ] [ 3 ] Opposed to anarchism , democracy , pluralism , egalitarianism , liberalism , socialism , and Marxism , [ 4 ] [ 5 ] fascism is at the far right of the traditional left–right spectrum . [ 6 ] [ 5 ] [ 7 ]
Fascism rose to prominence in early-20th-century Europe. [ 6 ] [ 8 ] The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I , before spreading to other European countries , most notably Germany . [ 6 ] Fascism also had adherents outside of Europe . [ 9 ] Fascists saw World War I as a revolution that brought massive changes to the nature of war, society, the state, and technology. The advent of total war and the mass mobilization of society erased the distinction between civilians and combatants. A military citizenship arose, in which all citizens were involved with the military in some manner. [ 10 ] The war resulted in the rise of a powerful state capable of mobilizing millions of people to serve on the front lines, providing logistics to support them, and having unprecedented authority to intervene in the lives of citizens. [ 10 ]
Fascism rejects the view that violence is inherently negative or pointless but rather views imperialism , political violence , and war as means to national rejuvenation. [ 11 ] [ 12 ] Fascists often advocate for the establishment of a totalitarian one-party state , [ 13 ] [ 14 ] and for a dirigiste economy (a market economy in which the state plays a strong directive role through economic interventionist policies), with the principal goal of achieving autarky (national economic self-sufficiency). [ 15 ] [ 16 ] Fascism's extreme authoritarianism and nationalism often manifest as a belief in racial purity or a master race , usually blended with some variant of racism or discrimination against a demonized " Other ", such as Jews , homosexuals , ethnic minorities , or immigrants . These ideas have motivated fascist regimes to commit massacres , forced sterilizations , deportations , and genocides . [ 17 ] During World War II , the genocidal and imperialist ambitions of the fascist Axis powers resulted in the murder of millions of people.
Since the end of World War II in 1945, fascism has been largely disgraced, and few parties have openly described themselves as fascist ; the term is often used pejoratively by political opponents. The descriptions neo-fascist or post-fascist are sometimes applied to contemporary parties with ideologies similar to, or rooted in, 20th-century fascist movements. [ 6 ] [ 18 ] Some opposition groups have adopted the label anti-fascist (often shortened to antifa ) to signify their stance. [ 19 ]
People like Kim Jon Un, Victor Orban and Vladamir Putin come to mind. All of which trump is not just fans of, but friends with.
Um, thanks for proving my point, I guess???
Definitely a fascist, as I understand the term.
Don't have a clue who this guy is.
Not even close to a fascist, as far as I can see. Much closer to an Oligarch.
Good post.
It's so clear, limpid. Trump AND THE WHOLE F***ING REPUBLICAN PARTY are dedicated to every item in that definition.
I don't understand why the Usual Suspects continue to obfuscate. They have won. They can be Kyle Rittenhouse whenever they please.
Maybe it's just habit. They've been dissembling for so long that it has become automatic.
I can only assume that for you, fascism is defined as an insistence on something called objective reality.
Possibly because they aren't what you insist they are?
They are.
Anything's "possible".
Your response is understandable. I misspoke. What I should have said is...
I would never interfere with your assuming whatever...
Wouldn't that be subjective reality?
That and everything they don't like
Looks like the definition he provided fits the left to a tee. Change "far right" to "far left" and it is a perfect definition of the left of today.
Hilarious that you keep saying that we on the left need to move on because we won, but post stupid shit like this, and then wonder why we are still in the argument.
I believe it is you leftists (collective you) that need to move on.
I haven't said that, or anything like it.
The behavior of our NT MAGAs is beginning to fascinate me. You seem to be struck in the past. You're having even more difficulty than we, in adjusting to oir Brave New World.
Has "making stuff up" become so habitual for you that you cannot stop?
Are you reading what you post? Doesn't look like it.
I invite you to scroll through the many, many posts by the left here and really take a good hard look at who needs to move on.
Trump will be their president. There is no getting around that.
The left needs to stop whining, get past the anger stage in which they are stuck and move to the acceptance stage.
What part of "I* do you not understand? I am not responsible for anything anyone else may say.
Do you think striking out the word "Republican" and replacing it with "fascist" is moving on?
Seems like some are stuck in the denial/anger stage of grief and have not even thought about the acceptance phase.
Who said anything about "moving on"? It's going to be a long time before I digest the idea of a fascist America. It has happened, but viscerally I haven't accepted it.
Nothing to digest because a fascist America is a left wing wet dream and something to whine about consistently for the next 12 years.....at least.
But yet you keep saying that we on the right need to accept that we won.
We have accepted it.
Maybe you need to accept that you (collective you) lost
No.
I haven't changed my behavior... but I'm saying clearly that I haven't yet digested the election.
NT MAGAs haven't changed behavior either. Does that mean that you haven't digested the election, either?
Acceptance is the best way to deal with that.
"NT MAGAs haven't changed behavior either."
No behavior to change.
When we start calling leftists fascists, communists, supremacists, racist, etc, then there will be a reason to change the behavior, but we do not do that.
"Does that mean that you haven't digested the election"
Nothing to digest. I had confidence that Trump would win long ago.
Love ya, Bugsy!
You haven't understood a word.
No problem. You're a grunt, not an officer.
I understand everything you posted, that is why I correctly responded.
I was a sailor. Being an officer does not make you intelligent. I found, in many cases, it was the exact opposite.
You were an officer?
Saul? Is that you?
Finished at captain Being an officer doesn't make anybody smart.
Being an officer requires understanding circumstances. Good officers do, lousy officers don't.
Which branch? All five branches have "Captain" within their ranks.
Either way, Happy Veteran's Day.
There is one person here who likes to refer to those who served as "alleged".
Must be miserable being that sad.
Thank you.
Army. Vietnam.
I know of a guy who calls us "losers".
Happy Veterans Day to you and everyone else who served.
Thank you.
Thank you...but I have to ask
Does this go for those that "allegedly" served?
I think you captured it. The people who do that are miserable. Sad to see.
For once we agree.
Who's speech would "You" be fighting for?
Okay, good. Since you have difficulty with the concept of a straw man, we can continue your lesson. Your question is an example of a straw man. For instance, concerning...
... your question regarding what Sean said suggests Sean's point concerning fascism depends on who is speaking rather than what is being said. That is, contextually, your question depends on who is saying it rather than what is said, which suggests that Sean supports fascism. Of course, put that way, even you would think that is ridiculous. So, in spite of context, what you really mean is, who supports concepts you reject?
What I've said here by itself isn't enough to prove what I have said, but when one takes into consideration what you've said elsewhere, I think it then becomes enough.
Of course, Sean's (and emphatically, my view) exposes the weakness of the concept of free speech. People can say whatever they want to, generally. I say generally because even free speech can be taken too far, such as shouting "fire" in a crowded theater where there is no fire. But, of course, that isn't what is being discussed concerning free speech. Rather, the concept of communicating ideas and concepts.
If we accept that concerning free speech, the issue then becomes the balance between the honest ability to communicate ideas freely and suppressing communication that is solely designed to harm and, who gets to decide what that is? Is the CCP justified in suppressing speech that suggests capitalism is superior to communism?
So, in the end, your straw man is suggesting that who is making the speech is Sean's point, rather than what they actually said.
I don't have any difficulty with the concept of a strawman. You still do. To wit:
You have created out of whole-cloth the argument that you think I have made, when i was asking a question. You assumed my meaning and went of pel-mel from their. That is very bad form.
.
So 75 million people of all political stripes and beliefs are fascists?
The leftists lost because they are terrible at governing and leading, but are experts at blaming, shaming, labeling, and name calling.
The party of sore losers know in their hearts why a very diverse electorate rejected their shit, but are afraid to publicly admit it.
The American people as a whole are way smarter and informed that the progressives give them credit for.
A bit of normality has returned to the USA and the voters have put the adults back in charge again.
What part of "Another significant part doesn't mind having a fascist dictatorship. Together, the two groups have elected one of theirs." do you and understand?
This isn't self-reflection or a post-mortem at all. It is what a majority of leftists have been saying. They are just going to keep right on pushing their horrible ideology onto the country.
First there is this:
Broad economic discontent, sharp divisions about the nation's future and polarized views of the major-party candidates mark voter attitudes nationally in ABC News preliminary exit poll results of the 2024 election .
Nationally, the share of people saying they've gotten worse off under the current administration (45%) is the highest in presidential exit polls that have asked the question -- even surpassing the 42% "worse off" in 2008, in the teeth of the Great Recession.
Exit polls 2024: Deep economic discontent with Biden drove voters to Trump - ABC News
I saw a very interesting chart Just today which shows that most people earning less than $100,000 per year voted for Trump and the more individuals earned over the $100,000 benchmark, the more they tended to vote for Harris. That kind of explains everything including why some thought they were better off under Trump and certain others don't care if a pound of butter costs $7.
What bothers me is that there are people who just don't care about their fellow Americans. They are all consumed by an ideology they learned at college.
TDS is an ominous and intellectually debilitating malady.
Thank God for his persistence.
Look what he went through. It is one of the greatest chapters in American history.
You also deserve congratulations for your efforts.
You haven't actually disagreed with my proposition.
Not really. You want to offer congratulations to the real culprits of Trumps win offer it to Democrats and the Harris campaign.
You’ll be right in the wheelhouse then …. Oh and welcome back
I gots me some deja vu all over again this year.
Some of these people want everyone to bow down before Trump. Not gonna happen.
I bow down to no politician. I vote for them but bow down? Nope. That’s hyperbolic nonsense.
When do you think will Trump's "fist salute" become a social obligation?
Um....probably only to the TDS afflicted.
Why are so many MAGA whining that "the left" wont stop criticizing him? The left, and others, are never going to stop attacking him, nor should they. He is by far the worst presidential candidate in US history. That actually means something to some people.
I haven’t seen any of that but i have seen a shitload of whining AND denial from the left
Why are so many MAGA whining that "the left" wont stop criticizing him
You may be confusing whining about with laughing at
The only ones whining right now are not Trump supporters
He's such a fucking martyr.
It looks like he's going to get away his incited insurrection and everything associated and even the classified documents.
So, he's above the law then.
Of course. The "rule of law" is ended. The will of the Dictator replaces it.
Congratulations Vic You worked hard for this.
Bob
A significant part of Americans want a fascist dictatorship.
Two points
1. I don't think this is true
2. I hope that it never becomes true in this country.
I always enjoy the points and counterpoints made on your articles - even when I do not participate other than to read.
Thanks for the compliment.
I've never said Trump is a Nazi - some MAGAs may be, but I don't think he is. The distinguishing characteristic of the Nazis was the Holocaust. Trump has announced institutional cruelty f9r minorities, but I haven't seen plans for mass murder.
But there have been plenty of fascists - Mussolini, Peron, Franco, ... - who have crushed human rights, but not committed mass murder. That's horrible, isn't it? The MAGA regime won't ne so bad since they won't commit genocide.
I was careful to say that not all Trump voters are fascist true-believers. For whatever reason, they voted for the man... and so contributed to the establishment of a fascist dictatorship in America. Regardless of motivation, the consequences of their act are the same.
Well Said
I'm not ready to reenter white society. A weekend trip to CVS really drove that home for me. I'm not ready to put on my white people armor, just to go to the store.
This seems very relevant:
Only in Merica
You don't have to continue to make stuff up, Sean.
You won. You control ALL the levers. The game is over. You will have the state you have been working to get for all these years.
So... RELAX!!!
You can recognize the Fascist Party's plans. Project 2025 is just the beginning, and we both know it.
Lol. Read this again:
There are serious mental health issues running amok among large segments of the left. I can only hope they get help.
Lol, still haven’t the lesson eh? The majority of America didn’t buy that bullshit but it is sad how many did ….
Your sollicitude is heartwarming.
Sincerity has that effect.
A majority of Americans voted for that bullshit, and the
RepublicanFascist Party is dedicated to applying it.I don't understand why you continue to deny the success of your efforts.
Shit all you have to do is look no further than NT to see that.
None of you has yet explained why you're behaving as though the game wasn't over. You don't have to waste time on silly insults that everyone - you and your targets - ignore.
You've won. You don't need to attack any more. You can move on to whatever next step you wish to take. It'll be interesting to see your priorities.
It is genuinely disturbing to see the mental health meltdowns occurring over an election.
The left needs to Touch grass as the kids say. Anyone whose health and happiness is dependent on which party controls Washington DC is living wrong. It should bother everyone that psychotic "mental health professionals" are telling already mentally damaged people to cut themselves off from their support systems for voting the wrong way. It's how cults act.
As I said, your sollicitude is touching.
C'mon, Sean. You've been cra**ing on your adversaries for a very long time. The only compliments you'd ever give are backhanded.
Well... I guess it's too soon for you to have assimilated your victory. You're still in combat mode.
Interesting psychology.
Yep, lesson not learned. Keep rocking it though ….
So are your comments in this seed …… interesting indeed …
You've done anything and everything to advance your cause, for years. You've succeeded. Why aren't you celebrating?
Surely that would be more fun than reheating stale insults that everyone has heard a thousand times.
Winning with class.
A concept that is foreign to many here.
Exactly.
I know
Many of you leftists (collective you) have not accepted that it is over. I knew it was over about 1030 eastern Tuesday night when Trump took Georgia. Channels like CNN and MSDNC could not gather the balls to call Georgia, Pennsylvania, and I believe Ohio for several hours after everyone else called them for Trump.
There are still insults being hurdled here on NT and other left wing sites. What the left does not understand is the only ones that they need to blame for Harris' loss is the left itself. Twelve million less democrats voted for Harris than did Biden.
They need to get over it and move on.
But but but we on the right need to move on because we won.
Fucking hilariious.
That's surely true. Human nature is like that.
But what I'm seeing is kinda like pounding on an adversary who's already down.
Maybe you are not paying attention to the continued insults by the left here and other sites.
It is if the election is still ongoing and the left never received a memo that stated the race is over, so they continue their name calling like racist, fascist, misogynist, fascist, white supremacist.
The projection.
The projection.
Oh, I don't expect that.
What I expect is that you become more open. "Jews will not replace us!" and so on.
But you keep saying that.
If you want to take a look at being more open, here is a great example...
It ain't someone on the right.
[removed][✘]
I am not responsible for the words of anyone except myself.
Blaming someone for deeds done by someone else is a standard hypocrite's tactic.
Politics is cyclic. It's a swinging pendulum. And whatever is removed in the immediate starting January 20, 2025 can be replaced. . . incrementally or in total starting in January 2026. So the hard work continues. . . .
Some pendulums swing very slowly.
Yes. Well, the SCOTUS is lost to liberals. It is what it is. Spilt 'milk' is done milk. I will die at some point under conservative SCOTUS control it does seem. So we will have to 'reimagine' court 'fights' over liberties and such. And I do not kid myself . . . it is the intentions of dominance-seeking conservatives to LOCK liberals (and others) out of getting out from under their control and worldview. But God. (That is what we have to invoke in order to not give over to despairing.) As the saying goes: "The Lord will make a way somehow."
Good luck with that.
DITTO.
Republican voters want an authoritarian "daddy" figure to worship and defend. Whether they ignore Nixon's corruption, Bush/Cheney and their disastrous 8 years, they still idolize these men and think everyone else should too. Whoever and whatever the Republican party shoves forth in policy or on the ticket, Republican voters blindly and repeatedly check the "R" box and expect everyone to be happy with their daddy figure. Demonize and blame a Democrat even if their state has been Republican red for half a decade, every single thing is the fault of a Democrat. Blame a Democrat for what Republicans do and the bills they pass, these voters smugly act outraged when you dare to point out that their "daddy" did the damage.
Bullshit
The elitist patriarchy tossing around the term "fascism" worked out so well during this last election cycle I would suggest doubling down on the very effective term.