Immigrants
What do they contribute to the nation?
What harm do they do to the nation?
A few days ago, I was very upset with NewsTalkers. The Powers That Be had just trashed a couple of my seeds themselves, and then stood by impassively while the Usual Suspects trashed another. I was not happy, and decided that from the on I would post but not seed. That resolution lasted as long as my others… about 48 hours.
My problem, of course, is that The Powers That Be are… The Powers That Be. NT members don’t have to accept their decisions – unless we want to participate. Then we really do have to accept their decisions. I suppose that accepting… how may I phrase this… decisions that are less than optimum… builds character. “Give me the strength to accept the things I cannot change!”
In a random seed, I had asked another member how he thought immigrants were harming the country. I got no answer. I don’t know about you, but for me, not answering a straightforward question is a serious red flag. Therefore this article.
What do immigrants do that is beneficial to the country… and what do they do that is detrimental to the country?
The purpose of this article is to incite members to answer those two questions, so that we may rationally discuss the topic. I’m going to propose some topics, but please see these ideas as pump-priming. I don’t pretend that these are either absolutely accurate or absolutely definitive. (I do cite sources… )
Immigrants take jobs that otherwise would be taken by already-residents.
The Impact of Immigrants on Employment and Earnings
Although many are concerned that immigrants compete against Americans for jobs, the most recent economic evidence suggests that, on average, immigrant workers increase the opportunities and incomes of Americans. Based on a survey of the academic literature, economists do not tend to find that immigrants cause any sizeable decrease in wages and employment of U.S.-born citizens ( Card 2005 ), and instead may raise wages and lower prices in the aggregate ( Ottaviano and Peri 2008 ; Ottaviano and Peri 2010 ; Cortes 2008 ).
One reason for this effect is that immigrants and U.S.-born workers generally do not compete for the same jobs; instead, many immigrants complement the work of U.S. employees and increase their productivity. For example, low-skilled immigrant laborers allow U.S.-born farmers, contractors, and craftsmen to expand agricultural production or to build more homes—thereby expanding employment possibilities and incomes for U.S. workers. Another way in which immigrants help U.S. workers is that businesses adjust to new immigrants by opening stores, restaurants, or production facilities to take advantage of the added supply of workers; more workers translate into more business.
Immigrants are costing too much in healthcare.
Immigrants’ contributions fund government health care
Immigrants pay more into government health care programs than they use in benefits, creating a net surplus. For example, immigrants paid $51 billion more in taxes that pay for Medicare than they used in Medicare-paid services between 2012 and 2018. The Medicare program has been famously running a deficit for some time and is predicted to become insolvent by 2026.
So, how is it that immigrants are creating a surplus? Medicare is funded primarily through a payroll tax that applies to all U.S. workers regardless of immigration status, including more than half of undocumented immigrants . The program is used by eligible U.S. residents who are 65 or older. On average, immigrants are younger, healthier and more likely to be in the workforce than the U.S. born, and many are simply ineligible for government benefits.
Read the article. Comment on the content of the article.
It is to be expected that the Usual Suspects will sabotage this article in the usual ways. They will Comment off-topic, and then argue about their off-topic Comments, rather than the article. I am begging the Mods to not allow this. I am begging the Mods to delete off-topic Comments.
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Immigrants contribute to the nation. Their presence is, overall, beneficial.
Yes. Absolutely. It's very difficult to argue otherwise with any sense of statistical basis.
It's really easy to fix the immigration problem in the US. We don't do it because there aren't really any votes in solutions. There are tons of votes in melodramatic emotional rhetoric like "kids in cages" or "MS13 will rape your daughter". So if you're an American politician, the last thing you want is an immigration solution.
As I know you know I've posted similar sentiments and illustrated them. At least the more intelligent right-wingers have modified their complete disagreement with immigrants generally to only be about illegal ones. But those American citizens who support tearing families apart to deport undocumented ones should be deported to a third-world country as well, along with those who wish to deport peaceful hardworking immigrants who fill the necessary jobs that they themselves would never lower themselves to do.
Most immigrants who choose to jump the line illegally to get into the US are otherwise hardworking and good people. They do contribute to the nation to some degree. But with the good people come the bad. The unrestricted and unregulated entrance into the US caused by the Biden administration has caused all kinds of problems for the border states and beyond. The types and magnitude of these problems has been enumerated on these pages numerous times
There are not jobs or homes for every immigrant. Most of them have no means of self-support and very few are vetted or vaccinated, so they become an expense that many border cities and counties can't absorb. Perhaps the Trump administration can shut off the open spigot of new arrivals and bring some common sense to this very serious issue.
I didn't realize that Biden was so powerful as be able to jump back in time 40 years to start the process. Is he a wizard?
Please do not derail. The topic is not Biden.
Thank you.
That's precisely the topic of this article: what, precisely, are all these problems?
Volume, and the infrastructure stress related to volume.
We're talking about thousands or tens of thousands of people per day. Because they're coming in illegally with no documentation, the federal govt doesn't acknowledge them and doesn't provide funding for the infrastructure needed to handle them.
You've seen the commotion caused in massive cities like NY or Chicago when just a few hundred immigrants arrive. Imagine what it does to a small city like Laredo.
Crime, housing shortages driving inflation and COL increases, costs imposed local governments, wage suppression
That can't be right, legally they can't work and there is always some idiot who claims the commit less crime than actual Americans, Not sure how they eat, but they obviously aren't working.....right?
What are the problems?
You're recounting stuff you say is happening, but you neither document the event, nor (more importantly) explain what negative effect is occurring.
You say the government doesn't supply funding... but you don't explain why that's a problem.
No facts, hmmm? Just say stuff.
So far, nobody has cited a single actual problem caused by immigration.
Everything from schools to jails to hospitals to roads to water systems to public transportation to waste management becomes overwhelmed by the volume of people.
I don't expect to have to explain that you get wet in a hurricane.
Could you be concrete? Could you cite a community where immigration has damaged the schools?
My impression is that this is a case of "If it's repeated often enough, people will believe it".
No one has, as yet, cited anything real. We've heard nothing but generalities.
and
Then we have testimony before the House Oversight Committee:
and
Parks and Wildlife are not very happy, either. https://www.fws.gov/testimony/impacts-illegal-immigration-public-lands#:~:text=Illegal%20Roads%20%2D%20Several%20miles%20of,left%20unattended%20or%20otherwise%20escape .
How about the Migration Policy Institute:
Overall, this is a list of hassles rather than real problems. Tons of trash is not good... but not a national disaster.
There‘s absolutely no attempt to balance these hassles with the advantages of more cheap labor.
"Immigration bad!"
They are real problems with real data and real money at stake, whether you care about them or not.
Teacher shortages? Overcrowded hospitals?
You're trying to play a game here where you pretend illegal immigration and legal immigration are the same thing. They're not.
Those are real problems... that exist independently from immigration. Putting responsibility for them on immigrants is scapegoating.
And are heavily exacerbated by illegal immigration. When you don't know who has come in, and you don't know how many have come in, you can't plan properly.
Maybe you'll believe the Mayor of NYC who has squawked constantly about the economic and humanitarian crisis posed by a few hundred migrants arriving from Texas. They can't feed, house, clothe or educate them.
The entire state of Texas is laughing at the idea that they're crying over 500, when we can get that many in an hour.
Why do you insist on "illegal"? The teacher overload is due to too many students, regardless of their legal status. Again... scapegoating.
Unfortunately, state taxpayers are being forced to pay for the financial consequences of Biden’s refusal to uphold the fundamental rule of law and safeguard America’s borders. Education is a state, not a federal, issue. It’s time for Arizona—and all states—to take back control of their education policy and costs.
Arizona has underpaid its teachers shamefully for a long time. Blaming immigrants is scapegoating.
In general, what we're seeing is blame for everything, and credit for nothing.
"Immigration BAD!"
Lol.
Because I've lived in high immigration zones for over 50 years. Because I was a teacher in a Title I school. Because I've coached more immigrant kids (legal and illegal) than you'll probably ever meet.
There are massive differences between asylum seekers, refugees, immigrants and illegal immigrants.
If they are illegal, they are undocumented. They are always at risk of being deported, so they work very hard to stay out of public data. They also tend to be transient. Many of them go back and forth from the US to Mexico a few times a year.
Incidentally, they're also extremely vulnerable. They can't go to the police and they generally have to live in poor, rough neighborhoods. They usually have shitty living conditions. It's not uncommon to see 5 or 6 people in one bedroom apartments, or 10-12 in a 3 bedroom house. They don't have bank accounts and they don't have credit scores, so they can't rent their own places. They may or may not have a driver's license and it may or may not be legit. They struggle to get medical care, and then can't pay for it because they don't have a way to transfer that much money. Did I mention they don't have bank accounts? So they end up using check cashing places that charge them 5% or more of the meager money they do make.
If they're legal, they tend to have permanent addresses. They're more stable. They have bank accounts and credit scores so they can get their own apartments. They can keep jobs. They get health insurance, car insurance and file taxes. They can call the police when they get robbed. They go to regular doctors instead of the ER when they get sick. The people who organize public services know they're here and can plan accordingly.
Do you imagine a school just sees who shows up on the first day and then hires the teachers they need? That's not how it works. They're hiring in April, May and June for the August school year, so they need a pretty good expected headcount by February or March. With illegal immigrants, that's damned near impossible. You never know how many you'll have or how long they'll stay.
You know what the housing capacity of your attendance area is, and you know the formulas for calculating how many kids you should expect. But you have no way of knowing how many of those 1 bedroom apartments have 5 kids living there or how many three bedroom homes have 8.
You may have several hundred at the start of a school year, but by Christmas they've all moved to a neighboring school. Or you may be the neighboring school with a sudden influx of hundreds of kids you didn't plan for, so now you don't have enough teachers, textbooks, desks, classrooms, calculators, counselors, principals, nurses or anything else. You can't fix that in the middle of the school year.
You're doing an awful lot of virtue signalling for someone who claimed to want a rational discussion.
Logistics are real, even if you don't want to think about them. Look at the turmoil in NYC over just 500 unexpected immigrants in a city of 8 million. Providing public services is complicated, whether it's a hospital, a fire department, a school or anything else.
OK, then... Present some data!
Is this an "immigrant" problem or an "illegal" problem? What is the mechanism behind these movements?
When you were a teacher, did you believe in education as a necessity for America‘s future? Why isn't that even more true for children who don't speak English?
I don't know what "virtue signaling" is.
"Scapegoating" is a behavior - it's easy to identify objectively. It's blaming someone for something that is not in fact their fault. Blaming immigrants for crappy education in Arizona is simply not accurate, for example. Citing "tons of trash" as a national problem is over-the-top exaggeration - just look at our national parks, rinse, repeat.
Immigrants commit less crime. They are net contributors to healthcare. They hold jobs that most people don't want.
Ah, but they have dark skin and they don't speak English...
I presented data to show that immigrants are net contributors to the nation. Opponents to immigration have presented anecdotes at best, and completely baseless opinion in most cases.
Ah, but they have dark skin and they don't speak English...
I offered data, but you discounted it.
Illegal. People generally like stability, especially when raising kids. Legal immigrants can establish that with relative ease. It's extremely difficult for illegals.
Of course. Still do. Lets go one further... Immigration is necessary for America's future.
I'm not questioning the necessity. I'm talking about the very real logistical challenges of delivering that education.
Surely we agree that foreign language speakers require additional resources in the classroom and out.
So is virtue signalling.
How about we start with the premise that different viewpoints are not a sign of moral deficiency?
I blame these people about as much a I blame Shaquille O'Neal for using too much shoe leather.
Our system is antiquated and stupid. That's the problem.
If you were objective you would not mistake the introduction of facts as blame.
Yes.
No.
Illegal immigrants, yes. Legal immigrants, not so much. They hold jobs our educational system has told white kids they are too good for.
Data you misinterpreted and couldn't defend. Then you pretend nobody e
Who, exactly, do you imagine are these "opponents to immigration"?
Well let's all take a moment to bask in the glow of your moral superiority. It's easy to vilify people you don't know about a situation you've never experienced and don't begin to understand.
that's right, punish the poor undocumented workers and ignore the employers who have put up the welcome sign.
I want any journalist to ask Trump or any appointee when they are going after the businesses that hire illegal immigrants?
No illegal immigrant can have a job unless an American business is paying them. Which Republican Senators, Congress members or appointees employ foreign illegal immigrants as housekeepers, cleaners, lawn care workers, nannies or in their own businesses.
Where is the plan to begin searching every factory or business for breaking the law?
If businesses don't hire them they wouldn't be here supposedly taking our jobs.
Another glaring flaw is the lack of a plan to go after white illegal immigrants who blend in more easily. Are they going after more white illegals from Europe?
A couple of Democrats several years ago lost elections because it was revealed they employed an illegal in their household. Will Republicans police their own members?
After Republicans tanked the best border security bill at the behest of Trump before the election, their plan is to jump in without a clear plan to examine businesses first?
Just randomly create chaos by making a big theatrical show of "deportation" without addressing the root causes of immigration.
Please do not derail.
What problems do you believe are due to immigrants? You mention jobs, but apparently immigrants do not in fact take jobs from already-residents. They pay payroll taxes, but draw very little in benefits, so overall they are net contributors to the welfare system.
Overall I believe they are a net benefit to the country. Currently we have a fairly large labor shortage, and mass deportation will only increase it and in turn that will increase wages and some after product prices will go up, you can count on it. With the current threats being made on implimenting tariffs we’ll only be adding to the problem it is all interconnected. Something that we may learn the hard way,
What is going to happen isn’t new for the US we always look for a scape goat and immigrants are an easy target cuz we know as our leader told us they eat our pets.
my DIL is a naturalized citizen and her parents have green cards, work permits, and jobs here. my DIL's brother, SIL, and their son are political refugees from an unstable south american country, they waited over a year to get work permits, start the naturalization process, and have jobs. they're my family, and they won't be going anywhere, no matter what some xenophobic asswipe in DC says.
I hope you're right.
... right enough to know what should happen to xenophobes ...
Cities are spending billions and raising taxes because massive amounts of unskilled immigrants are such a benefit.
All immigrants are not the same. And the number of immigrants matters.
I supplied a link to data that says the opposite. Could you please supply data to support this affirmation?
the congressional budget committee says otherwise. Screw Americans that need help, let’s use massive amounts of our limited resources on illegals.
which link says cities have not spent billions on illegal immigrants? Do you need a link to prove that?
Your links do not address the recent flood of immigrants and your arguments appear to based on 20 year old academic arguments and and a specific, limited claim about the impact illegals had on medicare from 2012-2018. There is zero information to contradict my argument.
The committee on education and the workforce says otherwise as well.
New york city officials say otherwise, also.
Some chicago residents disagree with your assertion.
Educating children costs. Gosh, there's a shocker.
Of course, educated people produce better than uneducated people... but hey!
How much do these immigrants bring to the city? The article doesn't say. That's kinda incomplete, no?
A woman is unhappy.
But your article has no facts...
Which link was that?
Not enough to cover their costs, obviously.
It’s more than just “a woman.”
Yeah, no shit, it costs even more when the kids cannot speak english. Screw American kids, let’s dilute their education for the sake of illegals.
You're supposed to read the article before Commenting.
How is it obvious?
How so?
A baby can't speak anything. Let's not bother..'
You're supposed to read an article before linking to it.
Sandy
From the Red Rules (that are supposed to guide Moderation, I think???):
If you look at Gazoo's link, it is only tangentially on-topic... at the very best. This is a perfect example of what I begged Mods to not allow. So... of course...
Now I presume you will delete this Comment because "Meta".
Who are the 'immigrants' in the factoids being presented? Transient workers contribute to the US economy but they are not immigrants. Transient workers are in the US on time limited H2A visas. There is no legal limit on the number of H2A visas that can be issued; there's no limit on the amount of foreign labor available. And rules for hiring H2A workers require paying prevailing wages, providing some reimbursement for travel expenses, and protections by existing labor laws. So, it's not like transient workers are being abused, misused, or exploited. The H2A and H2B visa programs may be administered under immigration authority but these transient workers are not immigrants.
Refugee status is also transient. Those seeking refuge and asylum are also transient residents; they are not immigrants. As we've seen with the fall of al Assad, Syrian refugees are no longer refugees. There are various immigration rules that may allow these transient refugees to become immigrants. But while these people are in the US under protected status of refugee or asylee they are not immigrants.
People who enter the United States illegally are not immigrants. They do not have legal status as immigrants. At best, those entering the country illegally may acquire a transient status of refugee or asylee. Those who enter the country illegally and remain undetected do not have any protections afforded legal immigrants (and do not deserve any of those protections). Those who enter the country illegally are threatening the wages of legal entrants to the country. Those who enter the country illegally are competing for resources intended for people who legally enter the country.
People entering the country illegally are not contributing to the United States. There are any number of legal means to gain entry into the United States and legally reside and work in the United States. Those who are encountered illegally crossing the border should be summarily and immediately deported. They are not immigrants. And they have deliberately chosen a path of entry that precludes them becoming immigrants.
The facts and figures being presented may only be correct because those in the country illegally are not counted as immigrants. I've not seen any studies that show how much illegal immigrants contribute to the economy. The reports only talk about immigrants which may or may not include those in the country illegally and who are illegally competing with legal foreign workers and legal immigrants for jobs and government resources. Clouding the issue by equating legal immigration with illegal immigration won't result in honest reforms or workable solutions.
"Clouding the issue by equating legal immigration with illegal immigration won't result in honest reforms or workable solutions."
Thank you Sir! You hit the nail right on the head with that one.
Please don't derail
Well, there are a number of inconvenient flaws with the statistics and numbers used to advocate for amnesty for illegals. For instance, how can an illegal immigrant contribute to Social Security when they can't be legally issued a Social Security number? An illegal immigrant must be granted asylum before they are eligible to work or contribute to Social Security. Even then the asylee may be issued a restricted Social Security card that, in some cases, are exempt from FICA taxes.
An illegal immigrant that contributes to taxes and to Social Security by stealing someone's identity shouldn't be patted on the back. Identity thieves are criminals who are attempting to game and exploit the system. What kind of contribution is that?
In what way am I derailing?
Why does the posted Medicare graph make a distinction between All Immigrants and Non-citizen Immigrants? And where do Illegal Immigrants fit into the facts and figures?
Reading the linked article and looking at the graph suggests that legal immigration is being deliberately used to obscure the problems and costs associated with illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants are not eligible for Social Security numbers so they cannot legally contribute Medicare. Why should we applaud contributions by illegal immigrants committing identity fraud? Why should we prefer illegal immigramts, requiring identity fraud, over foreign workers who follow the rules to legally contribute?
They refuse to make the determination between legal and illegal immigrants. It destroys their narrative.
That was apparent when Nancy Pelosi was soiling her satin undies over the border wall. A border wall does not prevent legal entry into the country. A border wall only affects illegal entry into the country.
Foreign workers entering the United States with an H2A visa do not have to cross the border illegally. They can legally go through a port of entry without any problems.
If there is a need for more ports of entry then that can be addressed without political fearmongering. If more H2A visas should be issued then that could be addressed pretty easily. If there needs to be better coordination with Mexico to assist legal entry then the State Department should be working on it. There are a lot of things that can be done to encourage legal entry into the country.
We shouldn't be rewarding criminal behavior. And criminal behavior is really the only option for those illegally entering the country. Border jumpers allow to stay in the country have to wait months to obtain some sort of legal status just like those who seek legal entry into the country. The big difference is those who follow the legal process don't need to engage in criminal behavior. And that's what we should want.
Legal immigrants do contribute to this country. The argument has never been whether they contribute but to whether it is smart to allow unvetted illegal immigrants to flood the country.
100% of illegal immigrants violate our laws and 100% of illegal immigrants commit identity fraud to obtain work as a W2 employee in America. It is illegal for an employer to hire an undocumented worker without a work permit via work purposes only Social Security number. The fake social obtained by the undocumented creates a multitude of issues for the citizen it was stolen from. Americans file tax returns each year to find out their return was already filed by an undocumented worker using their social and our government refuses to accept their return.
That's true.
It doesn't answer the question, do they contribute?
They're illegal... in circumstances identical to the Pilgrims, whose entry wasn't authorized either.
Behind the "contribution" question lies the second, perhaps more difficult one: if they contribute, why are they illegal?