Oklahoma bill would make it a crime punishable by jail time to "possess" a shopping cart belonging to a business
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
OKLAHOMA CITY (KFOR) — An Oklahoma lawmaker is proposing a law that would make it a crime punishable by up to a year in jail for anyone caught "in possession of" a shopping cart taken from a store.
The bill's author says the law is needed after business owners told him they've been losing thousands of dollars worth of shopping carts to theft each year.
Others say this is yet again another bill unnecessarily targeting the homeless population.
The Bill in Question is Oklahoma House Bill 1689 (HB 1689).
State Rep. Rande Worthen (R-Lawton) proposed adding a section to HB 1689, that would make it illegal in Oklahoma to "remove a shopping cart from the parking area" of a store, with the intent to "permanently or temporarily deprive" the cart's owner from using it.
It also would make it illegal to merely be "in possession of" any cart that has been taken from a store.
Under Worthen's proposal, anyone caught violating the law could be punished with a fine all the way up to one year in jail.
Worthen says he has a good reason for proposing it.
"It came to my attention that a lot of the merchants were losing anywhere from 100 or more shopping carts every quarter here in Lawton," Worthen told Nexstar's News 4. "And the cost of $200 to $250 each, that adds up even for, you know, a larger company."
He says retailers like Walmart told him they're having to spend thousands of dollars a year replacing missing carts.
Missing carts, he says often end up in hazardous spots.
"They end up in the streets and causing a traffic hazard along oftentimes in creeks and waterways and alleyways and things like that," he said. "People are pushing them, taking things and just leaving the shopping carts all over town."
Worthen says his goal with the bill is to simply have a state statute in place to allow cities to add it to their local ordinances if they see fit.
"That's the purpose of the statute, is to allow municipalities to formulate city ordinances dealing with this so they could, um, you know, make it… okay, first time: warning… or, you know, you need to return the shopping cart and do what we used to call field interview," Worthen said.
But if you ask pastor and former Oklahoma state senator George Young, he's not so sure fining or locking up homeless people for having a shopping cart— accomplishes fixing the problem worthen wants to solve.
"Is that going to increase law enforcement's ability to return those cards back to those folks? That's the key, is how do we do that," Young said. "I just don't understand this idea and this content that really exists for the homeless to do creative deals like this, forget the impact of it. Forget what's possibly it could do to improve. Why do you point that group out? Why aren't we writing some bills to help eliminate the need of the homeless, to have to utilize property in that way?"
Nexstar's News 4 reported about a different bill earlier this month, which would make it illegal for any city in Oklahoma—except Tulsa or Oklahoma City to run homeless shelters or provide any homeless services whatsoever.
That bill and its author received a huge public outcry in response.
Young says Worthen's bill is no different in his eyes.
"They go together when it comes to uselessness," Young said. "Once again, you have a piece of legislation that has no really firm use in our society right now. It is asinine. It is crazy. Let's talk to the homeless alliance. Let's talk to the people who are directly involved with these. Let's talk to the folks who are working to try to help those folks live better. Let's talk to them and see what they say."
News 4 reached out to the Homeless Alliance.
Their CEO sent News 4 the following statement in response to HB 1689:
"It is abundantly clear to us that this bill specifically targets Oklahomans experiencing homelessness, as it points to commonly held beliefs and stigmas surrounding this issue. We are not advocating for people to be able to take things from businesses at will, but punitive measures like this bill address a symptom of the problem rather than getting at the root cause. Additionally, once a person has one or more arrests or misdemeanor citations on their record, it becomes exponentially difficult for them to pass housing background checks and secure permanent housing to end their homelessness. While the intended outcome of this bill is likely to deter the use of shopping carts beyond retail settings, it will almost certainly lead to additional barriers for people who are already struggling and without many resources."
- Meghan Mueller, CEO, Homeless Alliance
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Punishable by up to one year in prison...
Would it not mean that a person whose home is a short walk to the store would commit the offence if they walked their groceries home with it, unloaded it, and immedicately returned it to the store? So go ahead, throw that mother of young children in jail for a year for dong that, eh? Perhaps criminal intent should have to be proven, but even putting such a person through a trial is a big undeserved penalty, but then doing underserved things to people seems to be the purpose of the US government these days.
So what crimes by the homeless are acceptable?
You mean punishable by up to one year of free food and housing? I'm sure the for-profit prison system is just itching to get a chunk of those tax dollars.
This is not a homeless person issue. It isn't targeting them, either. It is a bill to attempt to stop loss from theft from a business that drive up prices for everyone that shops there.
In my opinion, those who object to the bill, the one's who want no consequences for stealing carts because 'it would be hard on the homeless' are essentially telling the rest of us we have some moral duty to pay for those carts through higher prices because they are homeless. No, we don't. That's just another way to force your ideals onto others, whether they agree or not.
The solution is, if you feel that cart stealing is a regrettable but necessary evil (or whatever way you'd word it), start a non-profit in order to buy carts more suitable and functional than shopping carts and give them to the homeless. That way, you're spending your own money on your own concerns rather than forcing everyone else to pay for your concerns.
Do you think this law will stop homeless from stealing carts? I don’t. Now citizens will pay even more broadly by having to incarcerate the homeless. What costs less - a cart, or a year of incarceration?
I doubt it. I doubted it when I wrote what I did. Does that make what I said untrue?
When the consequences aren’t a deterrent and instead just increase the burden on citizens then the plan needs to be rethought. Better to reimburse theft with public funds then spend 100 times more in public funds to incarcerate. Some people would rather overspend to keep the homeless hidden from the public eye. Homelessness is a societal problem.
And how many different crimes do you think should be reimbursed with public funds? Shoplifting? Vandalism? Where does it end?
Many people are homeless because they want to be and are likely the ones stealing the shopping carts. Why should we put up with that?
I agree. Prison is someplace you are made to work to support your own incarceration.
Many people are homeless because they want to be
Thats all anyone needs to know from you and the rest of the religious right to see who you really are. Fucking disgusting.
You're welcome to your opinion. It doesn't bother me. However, my statement comes from watching hours of interviews of various homeless people and it is what they say. It's the life they are used to, apparently.
the story of one such individual.
Oh come on now Drakkonis. You know better than that. Those against this law don't want to use their own money. They want to take yours
Multiple merchants in Lawton Oklahoma are losing 400 or more shopping carts each year to homeless people ? I dont believe it.
I'm not sure how this works-- but my assumption is that the loss may not be as bad as it sounds-- can't a business write it off as a tax deduction?
Well, probably not all of the loss.
But even if punishment of some sort would be a good idea, IMO a year in jail seems like a rather harsh punishment. If imprisonment would begin to be a deterrent, for a crime of this size, I think maybe 3 days-- or 5 might be more approprate.
There seems to be a debate as to whether most people stealing these carts are homeless-- or not. But I'm wondering about the effect of jailing homeless people.
Being homeless is not an easy life (especially in places with horrible climates-- the number of these seems to be increasing lately). So I wonder if many homeless people would look at the punishment as being more of an actual reward-- as getting free room and board for a year!
I'm wondering how much it costs to house and feed a prisoner for a year.
(And anyway-- guess who ultimately pays for that?)
They can write it off as a business expense against their overall income, so their total income is reduced by that amount. At least, that is what it is for a sole proprietor. One can cut the cookie other ways, depending on if you purchase them in groups and spread the expense out over years... but
How about just charging them for the cart? OR making carts available to buy or rent?
The year imprisonment I am sure is a year that the sponsors of this bill see as without at least one homeless person on the streets... Makes you wonder how much it costs to jail a person in OK, who is paying for the incarceration, and just who is getting that money. This bill smells like rotten fish to me.
IIRC, a while back I read about some place that had a system where you inserted money (I think it was one or more quarters) and that unlocked one cart. When you were finished using it you put the cart back where there was a device that detected the cart was back and released your money.
I don't remember where it was-- or the exact details of how it worked. (Apparently the technology was rather simple,and it worked very well. )
We have that system at my local Walmart here. A user inserts a loonie into a slot attached to the cart handle this pushes out the locking chain, when done you reinsert the locking chain into the back of the locking device which pushes out the loonie which you take and go on your way. It's a really simple device which not only keeps some from stealling them but also makes people more inclined to return them to the collection point instead of being lazy and entitled and leaving them all over the parking lot.
However this doesn't completely stop theft as those that do take them will either accept the loss of a loonie or take one of the ones that shoppers don't bother returning to the collection point
They do that at Aldi's here
"looney" - You're Candian aren't you?
Lol, it's loonie not looney and yesIam (mostlyanyways)
Dangitmyspacebarbroke,that'sannoying
Also, homeless/ jobless people earn quarters returning carts.
Shoppers leave carts with quarters in them at our local ALDI...
Also true
oops, sorry. I'll try to remember to spell it right the next time
Next time we'll work on toonie
When the day comes, I wonder what they'll call the $5 coin - a "finie"? Expressions like "Slip me a fin" will have to become "Toss me a finie".
Lol, I like the sound of a foonie. Really doesn't matter to me anymore as I only use cash very rarely, but back in the day when cash was still king I could collect over $1000 a year in change. It was pretty awesome
Hey, how do y'all think we Canadians make living?
I'm thinking that Trump is currently trying to figure out a way to put tariffs on shoping carts!!!
(If it moves-- put a tariff on it. If it doesn't move . . . well, ummm-- put a tariff on it anyway!)
Lol I've always thought one could make a few bucks tacking a walk around the parking lot returning carts that the lazy cannot be bothered to do so back to the collection points and getting the loonies out of the locking device
It is because courts (and people) are focused on laws like this and perceived serious crimes like thoseaddressed that real cases and work in the justice system is so bogged down.
Though I do not condone anyone stealing a shopping cart or anything else, this sounds to me like someone wanting to criminalize actions of the homeless - I don't condone that either
Others say this is yet again another bill unnecessarily targeting the homeless population.[✘]
America certainly is the land of opportunity, especially with 3/4 of a million people taking advantage of the American opportunity of living on the streets.