Opinion | The Economy, Immigration, Joe Biden and Donald Trump: 13 Independents Discuss - The New York Times

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T

WHAT can President Biden say and do to win over undecided voters? What concerns and arguments will draw these voters to Donald Trump? For our latest Times Opinion focus group, we spoke with 13 undecided independent voters from across the country about how they see the two leading presidential candidates and explored some issues that might affect how they vote in November. To a striking degree, most of the participants tilted toward Mr. Trump, even though they disliked his personality. So why did they lean toward Mr. Trump?

As you'll read below, almost all the voters (who range in age from 22 to 64) were most worried about the economy and how their groceries and other bills were too costly. Some were also deeply troubled by the crisis at the southern border, and some were concerned about the Israel-Gaza war and disliked U.S. aid to other countries.

The participants' comments indicated that most did not feel they were in good hands with Mr. Biden or trust that they would be, using words like "senile," "unfit" and "disingenuous" to describe him. And while the group viewed Mr. Trump negatively, some people suggested that the country was on its toes more with him in office. "At least Donald Trump started a conversation. Sure, it was divisive, and sure, it really wasn't the most productive, but it really highlighted problems and the divisiveness that was already hidden inside of our country," said Yalena, a 22-year-old Latina from Alabama. At the same time, she described experiencing more racism while Mr. Trump was president, including an ugly incident while dining out with her mother. These seeming contradictions came up with other matters, as well; there was concern about the future of abortion rights yet skepticism that Mr. Biden or Mr. Trump would be any different on the issue. Many didn't seem to understand the Democratic president's views on abortion. If there was one takeaway, it's that Mr. Biden has his work cut out for him to win over these voters.

PARTICIPANTS Daniel 39, white, Minn., project manager Gary 64, white, Mich., driving instructor Richard 36, white, Ariz., architect Meaghan 36, white, Wis., administrative assistant Kenneth 29, Latino, Texas, construction estimator Yalena 22, Latina, Ala., stay-at-home mom Lorraine 56, white, Pa., retired Henry 60, Black, Ga., consultant Natalie 22, white, N.J., administrative clerk Pavel 49, white, Nev., operations manager Hal 61, white, Fla., salesperson Robin 59, white, N.H., retired Kim 43, Black, N.C., counselor

How would you describe President Biden as a person?

Natalie: I'm very young, so I'm going to say what a Gen Z person would say: He's a little bit senile, and I do think if you can't do the job, it's time to step down. I want to say he means well, but it doesn't look like it from what he does. He promised student loan forgiveness, and that never happened. Henry: His intentions are good. But with the lobbyists and the big businesses controlling everything, there's not much going to get done. Kim: So I was going to say "puppet." That's because I feel like he really tap-dances. I don't know what he's done. It just seems like he's just throwing things out there to please almost anyone. Yalena: The word that immediately came up was "disingenuous." Nothing that is said really connects with me. I don't feel like I'm being told the truth. I don't feel like I'm being told anything upfront. I was just so disappointed -- with the ounce of hope I had left -- when we just started pouring money into the Israel conflict. Richard: I think he's unfit for the presidency. A president should be the commander in chief. And he does not appear to be a capable commander in chief.

Moderator: What would you name as the biggest accomplishment of the Biden administration? Kenneth: The infrastructure bills that have been passing. I work in that sector, and so there's a lot of money being pumped into it right now. Robin: Has he done anything? Because I haven't seen it. Hal: I think his presidency has been very weak and divisive. But if there's a positive, I would say the infrastructure as well. Pavel: For me, economywise, nothing. But I appreciate his support of Ukraine. Kim: Yeah, nothing economywise. But he's done a lot for racial diversity, in appointing Ketanji Brown Jackson to the Supreme Court. Daniel: He has competent people on his staff. I just feel like some of the people that were in the previous president's inner circle just were really people with questionable character. And the cap on prescription prices, I completely forgot about that one. So that helped a little bit.

Moderator: What would you want Biden to talk more about: lowering the cost of groceries and other things or securing the border and tougher immigration rules?

Richard:I happen to live in a border state. It is not in the news right now, but what I have been hearing and seeing is a conflict between one state or a group of states now that agree with one state versus the federal government. And it's not productive. It's going to lead to a not great situation. I would like him to address that. What's happening is he's dealing behind the scenes with Texas and with the governor over there, and that is not productive. In fact, they're using intimidation on the governor of Texas, and it's just not productive. If he wants more votes, I think he should say something. Pavel: I'm with Richard. What's happening between Texas and the federal government is very dangerous and concerns me. It should not be happening in America. I'm not sure that our country can afford having so many immigrants in a year, if we can digest them, if our economy will be hurt more. Kim: I'm a little bit further removed from the immigration as Richard and Pavel are. The major concern in my area is children and families who are not able to afford basic groceries. I work in the public education sector. You have two-income households who cannot afford food. I hate to say it. I don't understand how the milk went from one price to the other.

Moderator: For folks in many states, there are bans or partial bans on abortion. Do people feel that it's important to have a discussion about protecting abortion rights nationally?

Natalie: I mean, yeah, I definitely think it's important that the states that do have the ban on them have a conversation. Why are you dictating what a woman is going to do with her body? Yalena: I just think we've allowed it to become this religious vitriol thing where we allow religion to have a say in our policies about health care, especially women's health care. And I feel like we have not done a good enough job and the government hasn't done a good enough job at defining abortion as health care. Abortion is not a religious belief, whatever you think. Church and state have done a poor job at staying separated. Kim: I'm tired of hearing about it. I mean, I hate to say it. They can do what they want, women. When they have been banned before, they're going to get an abortion. So I don't even know why it's a topic of discussion.

So we talked about Biden. Now it's Trump's turn. How would you describe Trump as a person?

Lorraine: Conceited. Hal: Egotistical. Kenneth: Self-righteous. Natalie: Narcissist. Henry: Disastrous. Gary: Flamboyant. Robin: Irritating. Yalena: I was just going to say "crazy."

Moderator: What were some of his accomplishments during his presidency?

Yalena: At least Donald Trump started a conversation. Sure, it was divisive, and sure, it really wasn't the most productive, but it really highlighted problems and the divisiveness that was already hidden inside of our country. At least people were having conversations. At least everything felt more exposed and out there. Robin: I think he really had our economy pushing in the right direction. I just saw the flow. It seemed to flow, like the gas or even your shopping or just about anything that mattered to us. It just kind of flowed. It had a better flow. And you got to understand, it's coming from a person that, I've hated this man since I was about 17. I always thought he was a pig. OK? I do. I can't stand the man. But I voted for him three times. Richard: The unemployment rate got down to around 3.5 percent at one point, the lowest in 50 years. And so that was extremely uplifting for many, many groups in the country all at the same time, which was really amazing. I'd never seen that before. Not even during Clinton. Hal:I don't know the specific numbers, but he was trying to redirect a lot of the manufacturing back here and be less reliant on foreign sources, which I think would be overall good for our future. Kim: Not a popular opinion, but Trump did put a pause on student loan payments during the pandemic, and honestly, that actually allowed me to have zero student loan debt.

Moderator: When Trump was president, is there anything that he did as president that had an impact on you personally in a way that either helped you or hurt you?

Yalena: This may sound silly, but I experienced a lot more racism due to him being president. I am fair-skinned, so I don't look very Hispanic to a lot of people. But a lot of the times I spoke Spanish, people felt the opportunity to be more vocal about their opinion on how they felt about Hispanic people. One time, me and my mom, we were at a pizza restaurant, and the people in the booth next to us did not appreciate that we were speaking Spanish. They called the manager over, and the manager came over to us, and they were like, "Hey, if you can't speak English, we're going to have to ask you to leave." As you can imagine, we left because we felt uncomfortable, and as we were leaving, it was followed up by comments of "Go back to your country," "Speak English," "You're in America." And so God knows what else they said.

Moderator:I'm so sorry that happened to you and your mom. Thank you for sharing it. Let's shift gears a bit. Trump is facing 91 criminal indictments. He talks about them a lot. Do you think Trump is talking too much about these criminal indictments that he is facing?

Pavel: I don't think it's a witch hunt, as he calls it, and I think he violated certain laws. I mean, in even his personal stuff and his sexual abuse. I mean, I trust all those allegations.

Moderator: For anyone, if Trump is convicted in one of these trials, would it make you any more or less likely to vote for him if he's the Republican nominee?

Robin: To me, it doesn't affect anything. His life, he puts it right out there. I'm sick of hearing it, but it's him. So if I'm going to vote for him, that's part of what I accept.

Moderator: If he was convicted in one of these cases, would it make you any more or less likely to vote for him?

Lorraine:It wouldn't. I've already formed my opinion regarding Trump, so it wouldn't hurt or help my opinion. Trump talks a lot about the border, saying there's an invasion underway and he would seal the border if he was reelected and turn people back.

What's your reaction to how Trump talks about the border?

Daniel: Yeah, I definitely think it's an issue and it needs to be dealt with. For whatever reason, it wasn't highlighted enough until probably more recently. But I think it's dangerous that he's -- I think by and large, they're people escaping a bad situation from the country they're in. They're not here to commit crimes. And I think it's really dangerous that he's drawing a straight line to everyone that's doing that. We definitely need immigration reform. No doubt it's a problem. But the way that he goes about it is just going to cause more chaos and violence.

Gary: Immigration does need to be moderated and monitored. But for every one of those people that come in there, they're not taking jobs. They're creating them as well. So for every 20 people or every 500 people, whatever it is, nurses, doctors, policemen, firemen all get new jobs. So it's not just going one direction. It's not just hurting the country.

Moderator: Which do you want to hear more about from Trump:how good the economy was when he was in office as president or what he would do with the economy if he's elected in November?

Henry: For me at this point, anything Trump said, I don't buy it at all. It's a bunch of fluff, a bunch of lies. As far as the economy he's built, to me, he never built the economy. He just basically piggybacked off what Obama and Joe Biden had done prior to his administration. The only thing he's really done that I can see significantly is give a big tax cut to the big businesses. I did vote for him in 2016, but I am greatly disappointed.

Daniel: I just think he's just going to use it as an opportunity to enrich himself. That's ultimately what it comes down to. He only cares about one person: himself. What advice would you give to Biden to try to get more undecided voters to vote for him?

Meaghan: I don't know what he could say, in my opinion, just because we've been a disaster since he's been there.

Robin: Take a look at what's happening with the economy. Look at it for real with your eyes and not all your people around you.

Lorraine: I agree with Robin. I think he's controlled. I think he needs to be more of his own mind and speak freely more from himself. I think more heartfelt as a person. I don't get that from him.

Henry: I mean, he's not inspiring at all. There's not much you could basically tell him other than just come up with great policies for the country.

Yalena: I'd just tell him to stop messing around and just shoot me straight with what his intentions are. Moderator: What advice would you give to Trump? Gary: Stay off Twitter.

Kenneth: Between both of them, have a plan, communicate the plan, prioritize and execute. Make sure everyone knows what's going on. Do those, you'll be all right.

Kim: He's just going to have to tone it down some. He's got to -- hate to say it -- win back some people that he lost. So he's going to need to tone it down and kind of rebuild those tainted relationships he did last go-round.

Henry: Just stop being so ridiculous. I mean, he's not presidential at all. Just get down to business.