Horrifying images from Ukraine spark renewed calls for war crime investigations
By: Rachel Elbaum and Yuliya Talmazan (NBC News)
How do we know who is doing what in Ukraine? Russians are quite capable of committing atrocities like we've seen. But Ukrainians are just as capable of committing the same atrocities, too. There aren't any 'good guys' in this war.
Every aircraft, tank, missile launcher, and piece of artillery destroyed in Ukraine has been Russian. The Ukrainian military is even still using Russian trucks. All sides fighting in Ukraine are using Russian equipment and munitions. That destroyed tank shown in the news reporting is definitely Russian. But how do we know which side was operating that destroyed tank? The unexploded artillery shells, bombs, and missiles shown in news reporting are all definitely Russian. But how do we know which side fired them?
The destruction we're seeing in Bucha means the Ukrainians and Russians were fighting in Bucha. Russian munitions from both sides created the destruction we see in the news reporting. And both Russians and Ukrainians are quite capable of committing the atrocities that are being reported.
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
LONDON — Calls to hold Russia accountable for alleged war crimes in Ukraine have intensified as horrific images emerged over the weekend from the towns on the outskirts of Kyiv after the retreat of Russian forces.
Ukrainian officials and journalists shared photos and videos of what they said showed dozens of bodies in civilian clothing strewn in the streets of the town of Bucha, northwest of capital Kyiv, as well as nearby towns.
"We are still gathering and looking for bodies, but the number has already gone into the hundreds. Dead bodies lie on the streets," Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba said in an interview Sunday.
Mass graves "filled with civilians" were found in the towns of Bucha, Hostomel and Irpin, Sergey Nikiforov, a spokesman for President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, told the BBC on Sunday. Bodies were found with their hands and legs tied, and with bullet holes at the back of their heads, he said.
Ukrainian officials have also found "half-burned bodies," he added, "as if somebody tried to hide their crimes, but they did not have enough time to do it properly."
NBC News was not able to confirm the allegations of war crimes or independently verify the photos or videos.
Satellite images from Colorado-based Maxar Technologies, a U.S. government intelligence contractor, released late Sunday showed what appeared to be a mass grave with a 45-foot long trench by a local church in Bucha, while reporters for the AFP and the BBC have also reported seeing corpses in the streets of the city.
Zelenskyy accused Russian forces of killing civilians "knowingly and with pleasure," and pleaded with "every mother of every Russian soldier" to see the bodies lying in towns near Kyiv.
"What did the Ukrainian city of Bucha do to your Russia? How did all this become possible?" he said in a speech posted on Telegram late Sunday.
Ukrainian officials have compared the scenes in Bucha and nearby towns to historic atrocities committed during World War II and in Bosnia in the 1990s.
Moscow has categorically denied any accusations, calling photos and videos from Bucha a "provocation" by Ukrainian authorities. On Monday, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov called them "staged," and Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said information about the killings of civilians in Bucha "must be seriously questioned." Russian officials have consistently denied targeting civilians since Russia invaded Ukraine in February.
Human Rights Watch also said Sunday that its own investigators had documented "summary executions" and "other grave abuses" in several regions Russia controlled in Ukraine, including around Kyiv.
Ukraine, the United States and its allies have accused Russia of war crimes over the past weeks, but the latest reports have deepened the condemnation and calls for investigations.
President Joe Biden on Monday said Russian President Vladimir Putin "is a war criminal" and called for "a war crime trial," before adding that he was considering more sanctions against Russia for its attacks on Ukraine.
"The images reaching us from Bucha, a liberated town near Kyiv, are unbearable," French President Emmanuel Macron said in a tweet Sunday. "The Russian authorities will have to answer for these crimes."
European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen called for an independent investigation Sunday, saying that "perpetrators of war crimes will be held accountable," while the United Nations human rights chief, Michelle Bachelet, said Monday that the emerging reports "raise serious and disturbing questions about possible war crimes."
Secretary of State Antony Blinken described scenes of bodies on the streets of Bucha as a "punch to the gut" on CNN on Sunday, adding that "there needs to be accountability." The State Department had already assessed in a report released last month that Russian forces committed war crimes in Ukraine, and said it was committed to "pursuing accountability."
The international calls to investigate war crimes coincides with Ukraine's own efforts to gather evidence of such in its own territory.
Ukraine's prosecutor general, Iryna Venediktova, said Sunday in a post on Facebook that in Bucha alone, dozens of investigators were looking at evidence, while others were examining hundreds of bodies found in the Kyiv region. Her office was also looking into Russian actions in other areas of Ukraine.
Zelenskyy said late Sunday he will create "a special mechanism of justice" involving both Ukrainian and international experts, though he did not give further details on how that would differ from the work of Venediktova's office.
During a visit to Bucha on Monday, he said Ukraine would push for justice to be swift.
"We will pressure publicly as much as we can, we will not make any pauses to find all the criminals," he said.
The graphic images and reports emerging from Bucha may end up pushing prosecutors outside Ukraine to devote resources to prosecute anyone eventually charged with war crimes, according to Andrew Clapham, a professor of international law and the author of "War," who is also advising the Ukrainian government.
"There will be prosecutors around the world who will have the capacity to arrest people coming through their jurisdictions and who will feel clearer in their minds about the morality dimension to this," he said.
Prosecutions in international courts, however, could still be years away, especially given that the war is still ongoing, according to experts. War crimes carry no statute of limitations.
"People are still being prosecuted for events in the Second World War," Clapham said. "These are crimes which stick to you forever."
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Untrained civilians have been armed and are fighting in Ukraine. Mercenaries are fighting in Ukraine. Hardline political nutjobs have been traveling to Ukraine to fight - and - kill people.
How do we know who is doing what in Ukraine?
Exactly, what we know for sure is who invaded Ukraine.
So what are you saying here? The Ukranians are not the victims here???????????????????????????????????????????????????
That Putin isn't a war criminal and a murdering thug bastard scumbag????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Ukrainians are obviously victims. The bodies are quite real. But how do we know who is doing what in Ukraine?
There are irregular militias operating in Ukraine. Civilians have been armed and are fighting in Ukraine. I've been providing source material that shows irregular militias and civilian fighters have been committing atrocities and war crimes in Ukraine since 2014. So, how do we know who is doing what in Ukraine?
In the free world we see news reports from trusted reporters like Richard Engle who are showing the world Russian war crimes on TV.
I've been watching Ian Pannell.
The Ukrainian people would not torture, rape, decapitate, etc. hundreds of fellow citizens in order to portray Russians as brutal — as a show.
It disgusts me that you could even think this much less write it on a public forum.
Was thinking the same thing. And even if the Ukrainians are committing, "atrocities", (which I seriously doubt), cause and effect. They were invaded, they are defending themselves. Had they not been invaded, none of this would be happening.
Ukrainians will execute Russian collaborators and spies. Ukrainians are quite capable of killing civilians who hold pro-Russian views - or - pro-western views. They have in the recent past. And there are people fighting in Ukraine who are not Ukrainian or Russian.
Ukrainians were willing participants in the NAZI holocaust. Ukrainians were willing participants in the communist purges. Ukrainians have been torturing, raping, and killing Ukrainians for a long time.
Oh so these hundreds of civilians are now Russian collaborators and spies? Seriously?
The year is 2022. Any Ukrainian who willingly participated in the holocaust is long dead. Focus.
What I am telling you is that Ukrainians will do the same things Russians will do.
Argue about it. Twist it. Justify it however you want. But the fact remains, there are not any 'good guys' in this fight.
We've been trained to support the lesser of two evils. But how do we know which evil is the lesser in Ukraine?
What I am telling you is that in April, 2022, invading (albeit retreating) Russian soldiers have raped, killed, decapitated, tortured, ... hundreds of Ukranian civilians.
There is no defense for that. Any attempt to rationalize this in favor of the Russians is contemptable.
“Ukrainians were…”
Were whatever.
Today Ukrainians are…fighting for their very lives.
Tomorrow…Ukrainians will still be Ukrainians only if people around the world value the sacrifices made today and look to the future, rather than focus on the past.
Many countries do including the US. Remember the Rosenbergs? The US also executed German spies in WWII. We also imprison spies and collaborators and traitors.
Are you speaking of WWII?
Yes, there were collaborators and it should be noted that between 5 and 7 million Ukrainians died at the hands of the Nazi's included in that number is over 1 million Jews.
Yes, there are. Are you aware of how many nationalities make up the demographics of Ukraine without a doubt there are people in Ukraine that are citizens and some not citizens that are fighting on the side of the Ukrainians. That can be said for Russians and they have imported Chechnya, Syria, and Wagner Group to fight as mercenaries.
Around 4 million Ukrainians died at the hands of the Russians during the Holodrom and thousands more died and were purged and sent to gulags by the Russians over the years.
Your thinking is so foreign to me it is stunning!
Same here, JBB. My explanation is that this might be the result of a desire to always argue the most contrarian / extreme position on a topic.
Desire? More Compulsive Wrongheadedness!
It is war propaganda. They call me hyperbolic.
What I've been telling everyone is that an unelected government was installed in April, 2014, by parliamentary coup. That unelected government deployed the military against those protesting the installation of an unelected government. The unelected, installed government started the war in 2014.
I'm not rationalizing anything in favor of the Russians. I'm bluntly telling you that Ukraine is no better than Russia. There isn't any defense for rationalizing Ukraine, either. I'm telling you there aren't any 'good guys' in this fight.
If neo-nazis were fighting neo-nazis, which side would you support? If white supremacists were fighting white supremacists, which side would you support? If an autocratic government is fighting an autocratic government, which side would you support? Who would be the 'good guys' in those fights? And how would you rationalize your support?
Except right now the freedom loving citizens of Ukraine are fighting for their homes, their country, their futures and their lives against Vlad Putin's Invaders in their own homeland!
Volodymyr Zelenski has been making a lot of demands since the invasion. Has Zelensky been demanding humanitarian assistance? No. Zelensky has been demanding fighter aircraft, tanks, missiles, and weapons. Zelensky has been demanding no-fly zones from NATO and Europe. Zelensky has not been demanding NATO and Europe establish and protect evacuation corridors.
You know Zelensky prohibited men leaving Ukraine as refugees. Men are required to remain and fight. The refugees that news reporters interview are women, of all ages, and children. Where's the men? The men are being stopped at the Ukrainian border; men aren't allowed to leave.
Zelensky has been making all sort of speeches about defending Ukrainian national sovereignty. Is Zelensky appealing to patriotism or nationalism?
Are you supporting what you think you are supporting?
Let's assume you get your wish and the global effort to topple Putin succeeds. Is Ukraine the desired model for what we want the Russian Federation to become?
Would someone like Volodymyr Zelenski running Russia really be an improvement?
That should be decided by the Ukrainians!
Not you! Not me. Not Putin. By Ukrainians!
Well your timing utterly sucks, Nerm.
In the aftermath of a horrific murder / rape/ mutilation / ... of Ukrainian civilians by Russian military, you choose to argue that the Ukrainians are just as bad as the Russian military.
Tone deaf would be an understatement.
“Would someone like Volodymyr Zelenski running Russia really be an improvement?”
1) Zelenski has no desire to ‘run Russia’
2) Fighting to maintain one’s sovereignty in 2022 has nothing to do with what happened in 1955 or what may happen in 2025.
3) Question: are you defending Putin, condemning Zelenski, arguing to argue, and/or just pissing into the wind?
The Russians have kidnapped Ukrainian children and are using them as human shields, standing them in front of tanks. Why? Because they don't think the Ukrainians will fire on children.
Meanwhile, the Russians have bombed a children's and maternity hospital, proving that they are quite willing to fire on children.
Trying to equate the two is despicable.
The Russians have admitted by their tactics that they're the more evil of the two.
If you cannot tell, I do not take you seriously.
The Ukrainians are not the Nazis in this fight!
There is no equivocating left about who are good guys and who are the invading hoards...
There's no comparison between the two.
They're finding mass civilian graves of Ukranians.
Those could be just very good actors.
-- opens a PDF
What has been happening in Ukraine has been ignored for eight years. So, when is the appropriate time?
Which isn't what you quoted.
Is that patriotism or nationalism?
The United States does not need to be involved in this war. There aren't any 'good guys' in this war.
Sentimental propaganda and phony outrage by our elected leaders shouldn't be allowed to persuade the American people to fight in this war.
It is not immediately after an horrific murder / rape / mutilation / ... of Ukrainian citizens.
Why should Ukrainians decide who runs the Russian Federation? That was my question.
You get your wish and Putin is killed. Zelensky gets his selfie. Do you want the Russian Federation to become like Ukraine? Is Volodymyr Zelensky the role model for who should be leading the Russian Federation?
By who? How do you know who is doing what in Ukraine? Ukrainians have been committing these types of atrocities for eight years.
The sentimental outrage is being used to persuade Americans to enter the war. Just look at the dead babies! How could we allow this to happen?
But the United States doesn't need to be in this war. Americans should not be fighting in Ukraine. There aren't any 'good guys' in this war. Ukraine is not America's war. Ukraine is not worth fighting for. And we should not allow our elected leaders to drag us into another war that we won't win.
Nerm, I am too disgusted to continue with you.
[delete]
I'm not the one who is equivocating. I'm providing source material. You are providing memes.
Your link is a Russian mouthpiece. The same organization has denied that the Syrian Army under Assad/Putin used chemical weapons.
That's odd since Truth Hounds is a Ukrainian human rights organization that operates in Ukraine, Georgia, Armenia, and Belarus. There is other information available on the Truth Hounds web site.
I've provided links. Where's yours?
The United States does not need to be involved in this war.
Exactly, that stability in Europe and World Order thing is way overrated.
If everyone has been paying attention, President Biden has only been talking about stability in Europe. Ukraine has been incidental in Biden's message. The accomplishment Biden has been touting has been unifying and strengthening NATO. However, there is an election coming up and Biden's party isn't going to fare well. We could become embroiled in a war just to score political points.
The situation appears fairly obvious. Russia is not going to leave Ukraine. Ukraine is not going to defeat Russia. So, what's the end game? Even if Biden's sanctions topple Putin, the situation in Ukraine won't change. The Russian Federation will not give up control of the Black Sea and Crimea will continue to be important to the Russian Federation no matter who replaces Putin. The sanctions won't motivate the Russian people to embrace Europe and the United States even if the Russian people are persuaded to blame Putin.
Using war to kick-the-can will only make things worse.
My response was clearly to the link you provided in 2.2.11, not the link in 2.2.28.
Spot on Nerm but don’t expect much support here. Too many useful idiots ready to torch Russia and only Russia.
Have you been called a Russian agent or bot yet? If not, it’s coming.
The Ukraine is Putin’s Lebensraum.
That's odd since I did not include a link in @ 2.2.11 . If you are referring to @ 2.2.21 , the is an intergovernmental organization recognized by the United Nations as an impartial observer and monitor. If the OSCE is an unacceptable source then anything involving NATO, the European Union, or the United Nations humanitarian activities would be questionable.
I've been called many unflattering things. I don't care if Russia is torched. Just don't ignore that Ukraine is a mini-Russia and Volodymyr Zelensky is a Putin-lite.
Championing Ukraine is no different than championing Russia. Ukrainians armed Al Qaeda and ISIS. Saddam Hussein used Ukrainian weapons. Ukrainian arms were used by the Taliban. Russia was Ukraine's biggest customer for weapons used to prop up various regimes in the Middle East.
The United States does not need to be involved in this war. What is happening in Ukraine is a squabble among siblings.
Russia claimed Crimea before there was a United States. Russia has been fighting over Crimea for 250 years. And European countries have been trying to take Crimea away from Russia for two centuries. Not quite Lebensraum.
The Nazis are presently fighting for the Kyiv government. Why is that?
Agreed on all fronts.
Otherwise smart people tend to get really dumb when they allow their biases to interfere with their intellect.
There is the fact that Russia gifted Crimea to Ukraine in 1954...
Why wouldn’t a small, ultra right group of nationalists fight to expel Russian invaders?
Your link shows that the attacks were carried out by rebels attacking Ukrainian forces stationed near civilian targets, and missing.
Now, should the government forces have been near civilians? Probably not, but in a civil war, you'll have that. I can't imagine it's entirely avoidable to defend a city without having troops and equipment located throughout that city.
Yes, the report you linked states (in the second paragraph of the Overview):
"Because of the closed nature of those territories that are not under Ukrainian government control, data was only collected in towns controlled by the Ukrainian forces. However, the monitoring organizations recorded violations of international law carried out by both parties to the conflict."
As I have stated (several times), there aren't any 'good guys' in this war. The United States does not need to be involved in this war.
The Minsk Agreements are the only way out of the war. Democrats forced the United States into supporting Ukraine as a way to politically attack Trump. The United States cannot act as mediator so there is nothing the United States can do to end the war except direct military confrontation with Russia. Ukraine simply isn't worth it; Ukraine is not the hill to die on.
Ukraine has a long history of invading countries and committing war crimes, targeting civilians, murder and executing civilians. They have done it in Georgia, Chechnya, and Crimea....Oh, wait, that was RUSSIA.
From 2014 --
How do we know who is doing what in Ukraine?
Neither of those links has anything to do with my comment.
Ukraine did not invade either Georgia or Chechnya that was Russia, Nerm.
Yes, the Georgians have joined Ukraine in fighting the Russians do I need to explain why that is?
Regarding Chechnya, Russia invaded them twice and the second time Putin destroyed most of Chechnya just as is trying to do in Ukraine. He installed Ramzan Kadyrov as the leader of Chechnya who is beholding to Putin for his position so he and his followers are fighting for Russia in Ukraine. Those opposed to the Russian destruction of Chechnya are joining the Ukrainians.
You forgot the Belarusians that is also fighting on the side of the Ukrainians do you need an explanation for that as well?
Then how do you know who is doing what in Ukraine? Are we supposed to believe that these paramilitary units fighting in Ukraine are taking orders from the Kyiv government? As you've explained it, these paramilitary units have their own axe to grind.
So moving the goalposts once again.
The Georgia Legion has been integrated into the Ukraine army under contract.
The Belarusians have joined the Ukraine army.
Here is a link to the Chechnya's that are fighting for Ukraine and why also the Crimea Tatars have joined the fight against the Russian. You are familiar with the treatment of the Tatars by the Russians aren't you?
“How do we know who is doing what in Ukraine?”
…and yet, you feel compelled to go on and on and on, in spite of the daily indisputable atrocities…please just step off and nitpick another battle.
He’s not nitpicking a damn thing.
Unlike a lot of folks here he is thinking and not just reacting. And I don’t see him defending Russia either. Unlike a lot of people here who seem willing to defend Ukraine at all costs.
Like someone here said, Ukraine is just a mini Russia. They are just as capable of putting disinformation out there as Russia is. How much is real and how much is disinformation no one on NT knows right now.
Did Ukraine invade Russia? I must have missed that.
Nerm's explanations are reminiscent of a woman who gets murdered by her husband, and then his friends and relatives opine that she "made" him do it by her own behavior.
Has someone here said they did? Stop asking stupid questions.
I guess modern wars have to have their Axis Annie, their Baghdad Bob, their Tokyo Rose...
The characters known for spreading the lies and war propaganda of tyrants and madmen!
“Ukraine is just a mini Russia.”
Does that allow Russia carte blanche to invade a sovereign country, no matter how ‘mini’?
One simple question..eagerly awaiting your answer, and feel free to answer again for nerm as you see fit.
No Stupid Questions? Have you read olde Nerm's comments in the threads about which are riddled with supercilious questions?
Again, show me were anyone here said it did.
I didn’t answer for Nerm. I simply offered my opinion. Happens on discussion boards like this all the time .....
I have in this string and haven’t read anything near as stupid as the one I commented on. Not even close but hey, that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong ....
Is that you, tex? Hard to tell anymore as the responses are always somnambulistically similar.
Lol ..... chill out friend .... it’s all good. Good people can disagree. It hurts nothing really except maybe a fragile ego.
Besides with all the liberal stroke-tests here one would think everyone would be used to it. They outnumber anything conservative like that by a wide margin.
A WIDE margin,
You do not comprehend John's point?
Real simple, Russia is the aggressor. In the present, Nerm is equating Russia with Ukraine yet this war is a Russian initiative. Further, —and the significance of this should be extremely obvious— Nerm is equating the two immediately after the Russian military engaged in a brutal slaughter / rape / mutilation / ... of hundreds of Ukrainian citizens.
John's question points out that equating Russia with Ukraine when it is Ukraine that was invaded and attacked is illogical.
You see this as a liberal vs. conservative issue?
I think it is basic common sense and normal human empathy to, right now, recognize Ukraine as being invaded and attacked by Russia and to recognize the (horrific) brutality and murder committed on Ukrainian citizens in their homeland by Russian military.
This seems so clear cut to me. How is it liberal to see this reality and conservative to not see it? I do not buy it.
Not that long ago the Grand Old Party of Abe Lincoln was at least known for having some integrity regarding basic principles of right and wrong based in a realistic viewpoint...
The small g gop of today, the gop of Trump, seems to have no principles except to always be contrary and all their integrity be damned!
This pro-Russian fetish we see is Exhibit #1!
Our country is upside down now. It wasn’t that long ago that Dems defended the USSR and now Repubs love Putin.
Democratic Party never defended the USSR!
I don't recall "the Dems" defending the U.S.S.R. Maybe you can cite some pertinent examples.
My sense is that the GOP is generally in support of Ukraine and that those who are not in support tend to be Trump sycophants. I wonder if that holds true in this forum. Are the Russian apologists here Trump sycophants?
It is good (healthy) to see the GOP largely separate from Trump on this issue. That is one good thing arising from this tragedy.
When the fuck did Democrats EVER defend the USSR and little putin? NEVER
1992
But not Putin................at the time it was "someone else".
Because Reagan it seems....................Twits
I didn't ask you for your irrelevant contribution.
I know how you hate being wrong all the time. I'll keep that in mind and quit being so generous with information.
Your usual projection.
Your usual worthless contribution.
The last person in the world I would seek information from. LOL!
And your usual denial...........................
I comprehend it just fine. Pointing out what is clearly obvious to everyone with a brain is what makes it a stupid comment.
Not how I read it. I read it as he was simply stating Ukraine is not above disseminating disinformation to achieve their goals. No one here knows for a fact that they aren’t doing that just as much as Russia is probably doing it.
Johns question was: “Did Ukraine invade Russia?” which can only be called illogical because as noted above, everyone knows they didn’t and because no one here, including Nerm said they did. Calling the question stupid is completely logical because it is a stupid question.
You can keep me interested in this obtuse conversation by answering one simple question, that I have asked several times here and remains unanswered.
Where has anyone here said Ukraine attacked Russia?
If you were truly seeing “reality” you would be considering the potential for Ukraine to be using disinformation as well and not automatically believing everything that comes out of there.
You know, thinking logically and not emotionally.
Not true, Putin is still just a KGB piece of shit. Liberals trying to make that absurd comment about conservatives true, is the ridiculous thing.
Absolutely ridiculous.
As you noted earlier, anyone with a brain can see that Ukraine was attacked and that this war is solely on Putin (Russia). And anyone who can think rationally will not, without persuasive evidence, think that the Ukrainians are murdering / raping / mutilating each other to put on a show.
You are unfamiliar with the rhetorical use of an obvious question to make a point? Unfamiliar with the Socratic method too?
I have never seen anyone make that claim. (Yours truly is a stupid question.) Now, see above ⇡ ( rhetorical ... Socratic )
The potential is there. But a rational mind uses facts and logic and can discern if a possibility is likely. If the possibility is unlikely then a rational mind would seek corroborating facts.
The possibility that the Ukrainians are murdering / raping / mutilating ... each other to put on a show is unlikely.
( Hard to believe this needs to be explained to anyone. )
It is the emotional mind that leaps to unlikely conclusions sans sufficient facts.
and anyone who is obtuse enough to believe they would never manipulate the crisis to gain advantage probably still believes there was WMD’s in Iraq.
I understand those concepts just fine and also understand the person who made the comment enough to be relatively sure that was not his intent and to head off your next insult. Opinions do vary and remember I could care less what yours is.
opinions of what is stupid varies as well ..... see above
Denial of what?
Denial of the truth. That this..............
Was tied to the info I provided. You were given proof and just blew it off. Or didn't bother to read it at all. Typical.
Naw, you and your pals are the deniers here.
Why would I read anything you and your pals provide? Y'all are not my source for truth and facts.
Now another member of my fan club has shown up.
Who has argued that the possibility is not a possibility? Many things are possible, Sparty, but a rational mind will find a way to gauge what is most likely truth.
Given the abundance of evidence pointing to Russia and the lack of evidence pointing to the highly unlikely notion of Ukrainians murdering / mutilating each other for show, a rational mind would not be trying to debate that this might be the Ukrainians putting on a show.
That is childish and demonstrably false. If you did not care of my opinion you would not respond. It is childish because you gratuitously insert that silly Pee Wee Herman meta in the middle of a discussion on a serious matter. Emotional and childish.
Bottom line, the facts clearly show that the Ukrainians were murdered / raped / mutiliated / ... by Russian military and NOT that they murdered / raped / mutilated / ... each other to put on a grand show.
You trying to argue against that is ... curious.
So Jim, what facts lead you to speculate the Ukrainians murdered / raped / mutilated / ... each other (in the hundreds) to put on a big show rather than follow extant facts which indicate this was done by Russian military?
Where did I say that?
Oh so you do not agree with Sparty? I took your up votes to suggest that you agreed with him.
Well, okay, nevermind.
"Oh so you do not agree with Sparty? I took your up votes to suggest that you agreed with him.
Well, okay, nevermind."
Whenever someone owns the libs they have their own fan club to vote them up!
And then dude expects to be taken seriously.
He was throwing things out there. You can't deny that there is some nefarious goings on from within. There is so much chaos right now that somewhere, someone is doing something sinister. I was agreeing with
[delete]
You realize, of course, that it is possible that Trump is an extraterrestrial. Just throwing things out there you know.
So you were just agreeing with Sparty that it is “possible” someone somewhere is doing sinister acts.
Well, Jim, hundreds of Ukrainians were just murdered / raped / mutilated / ... in their own country during a period in time when the Russian military has invaded them and engaged in war.
So, sure, the most outrageously ridiculous speculations are possible, but rational minds tend to focus on what it likely because almost anything is possible.
Further, is their any empathy for these people? A slaughter took place and we have armchair generals speculating about the possibility that maybe the Ukrainians are murdering / raping / mutilating / ... each other by the hundreds to put on a show???
During the Holocaust, someone could have claimed that the reports of concentration camps, experiments, mass murders, etc. was mere propaganda to make Hitler look bad. That the Jews were killing each other to put on a show.
How am I moving goalposts? You have been providing the information that a number of ethnic groups are fighting in Ukraine because of past wars. The war in Donbas over the last eight years has also included ethnic grievances and ethnic conflict. Eastern Europe has a long history of ethnic conflicts.
The wars in Georgia and Chechnya were more about ethnic conflicts than national sovereignty. We've seen enough ethnic conflicts to understand that atrocities are routine. We've seen it in Bosnia/Herzegovina. We've seen it in Serbia. We've seen it in Moldova. We've seen it in Turkey, Armenia, Georgia, Chechnya, Kazakhstan.
My question is how do you know who is doing what in Ukraine? Are these ethnic groups going to set aside their motivations for fighting and submit to Kyiv control? Are these ethnic groups really fighting for Ukraine or are they fighting their own war in Ukraine?
The war in Donbas caused one million refugees (or more) to flee into Russia. About an equal number of refugees have relocated internally to other parts of Ukraine. There has been a refugee crisis in Ukraine for eight years. The war in Donbas really has imposed a cost on Russia.
What was happening in Ukraine did not stay in Ukraine. Russia could not simply ignore what was happening on its border with Ukraine. And the Kyiv government killing the pro-Russian eastern Ukrainians or forcing them to flee into Russia wasn't a viable solution.
Russia had a vested interest in resolving the war in Donbas in 2014. And Russia agreed to the Minsk framework that maintained Ukraine's national sovereignty, allowed eastern Ukraine autonomy under a model of decentralized government (somewhat like our state governments), ensured protections for ethnic groups inside Ukraine, and provided Russia security guarantees it wanted.
If a negotiated agreement fails then what are the options that are left?
It seems that the information that I posted is new to you.
You're aware that MN has a history of ethnic conflict as well, as does Canada, Central America, Asia, Africa, Western Europe, UK.
You do understand that those groups are part of the demographics of Ukraine and are citizens of Ukraine in many cases, don't you? In fact, the Tartars are the Indigenous people of Crimea.
Keep swinging away, somewhere in the future you might actually hit on something.
Here is a link to how the Russians treat the Tartars, seems that the Russians have a lot to answer for.
More recent than the USSR:
Whatever
No one here has said that so stop trying to put words in my mouth.
This is the last time I’ll respond to this circle jerk of a conversation so you can have that last word after this that seems so important to you. That said ....
Again and finally, the main gist of Nerms comment that I’ve agreed with here, and you disingenuously have tried to avoid is as follows. As noted numerous times in this seed we simply don’t know who is doing what in Ukraine. Full stop .... no more analysis required. The fog of war applies in cases like this ..... always.
Any supposition that everyone in Ukraine is above using manipulative tactics to somehow improve their position or push a narrative is ludicrous and simply obtuse. Ukraine is not an island. Human rights abuses alone have been problematic there long before these latest Russian driven atrocities.
Now, continue with your analysis paralysis ...... enjoy.
Oh, so you did not write this?:
There you go claiming someone is obtuse if they do not believe it possible for the Ukrainians to murder / rape / mutilate each other to put on a show.
So this is not what you meant? Okay, Sparty, clear the air. What did you mean to write?
No that does not have a full stop. You are questioning the preponderance of reports (from reporters/sources on site) that the Russian military murdered / raped / mutilated / ... hundreds of Ukrainians. You are raising the possibility that this is the Ukrainians manipulating the crisis.
Everyone? Who said everyone? Who has argued that it is impossible that the Ukrainians murdered / raped / mutilated / ... hundreds of fellow citizens for a show? It is possible. Most anything is possible. But the evidence overwhelmingly indicates that this is NOT WHAT HAPPENED. Basic common sense alone should lead you away from that absolutely ridiculous speculation.
It is truly amazing that in the face of such savagery, some sitting at home safely have the temerity to, without a shred of evidence, deflect from the empathetic support of the Ukrainians by speculating they might have staged this — that they murdered each other for a show.
It is truly amazing that in the face of such savagery, some sitting at home safely have the temerity to, without a shred of evidence, deflect from the empathetic support of the Ukrainians by speculating they might have staged this — that they murdered each other for a show.
Hopefully the shoe will never be on the other foot, but if it were that would probably be the point where the epiphany happens.
I'm just gonna leave this right here...
That picture, as sad as it is, does not compare to the latest atrocities.