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Federal Budget Deficit Grew to $2 Trillion in FY 2023

  
Via:  Just Jim NC TttH  •  last year  •  253 comments

By:   Kyle Hulehan (Tax Foundation)

Federal Budget Deficit Grew to $2 Trillion in FY 2023
Outside of the pandemic years, this year's federal deficit is the highest in U.S. history. Explore the latest federal budget deficit data.

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October 12, 2023October 12, 2023By: William McBride

Outside of the pandemic years, this year's federal deficit is the highest in U.S. history. Preliminary figures from the Congressional Budget Office (CBO)The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) provides nonpartisan analysis to the U.S. Congress on federal economic and budgetary matters. for fiscal year (FY) 2023 indicate the federal deficit grew to about $2 trillion, nearly $1.1 trillion larger than the prior year after excluding the effects of the administration's student debt cancellation plan that the Supreme Court struck down in June. Only 2020 and 2021 saw larger deficits, at $3.1 trillion and $2.8 trillion, respectively.

Social Security payments increased 11 percent, from $1.2 trillion in FY 2022 to $1.3 trillion in FY 2023, while Medicare payments increased 18 percent, from $751 billion to $846 billion, and Medicaid payments increased 4 percent, from $592 billion to $616 billion. Interest payments on the debt increased 33 percent, from $534 billion in FY 2022 to $711 billion in FY 2023. Defense spending grew 7 percent, from $727 billion to $774 billion. If this rate of increase continues, interest on the debt will overtake spending on defense next year.

TaxA tax is a mandatory payment or charge collected by local, state, and national governments from individuals or businesses to cover the costs of general government services, goods, and activities. collections totaled $4.4 trillion in FY 2023, down $455 billion, or 9 percent, from last year's record haul of $4.9 trillion. The largest decline was for individual income taxAn individual income tax (or personal income tax) is levied on the wages, salaries, investments, or other forms of income an individual or household earns. The U.S. imposes a progressive income tax where rates increase with income. The Federal Income Tax was established in 1913 with the ratification of the 16th Amendment. Though barely 100 years old, individual income taxes are the largest source of tax revenue in the U.S. es, which fell $456 billion, or 17 percent, to $2.2 trillion, apparently due in large part to a drop in capital gains taxA capital gains tax is levied on the profit made from selling an asset and is often in addition to corporate income taxes, frequently resulting in double taxation. Capital gains taxes create a bias against saving, leading to a lower level of national income by encouraging present consumption over investment. revenue as the stock and housing markets deflated. CBO also points to "higher-than-anticipated claims" of the Employee Retention Tax CreditA tax credit is a provision that reduces a taxpayer's final tax bill, dollar-for-dollar. A tax credit differs from deductions and exemptions, which reduce taxable income, rather than the taxpayer's tax bill directly. , a pandemic-era program that spawned a cottage industry until the IRS halted new claims last month due to rampant fraud. Individual income tax refundA tax refund is a reimbursement to taxpayers who have overpaid their taxes, often due to having employers withhold too much from paychecks. The U.S. Treasury estimates that nearly three-fourths of taxpayers are over-withheld, resulting in a tax refund for millions. Overpaying taxes can be viewed as an interest-free loan to the government. On the other hand, approximately one-fifth of taxpayers underwithhold; this can occur if a person works multiple jobs and does not appropriately adjust their W-4 to account for additional income, or if spousal income is not appropriately accounted for on W-4s. s were $129 billion higher this year than last, a 52 percent increase.

In contrast, payroll taxA payroll tax is a tax paid on the wages and salaries of employees to finance social insurance programs like Social Security, Medicare, and unemployment insurance. Payroll taxes are social insurance taxes that comprise 24.8 percent of combined federal, state, and local government revenue, the second largest source of that combined tax revenue. es grew 9 percent to $1.6 trillion in FY 2023, reflecting growth in wages and jobs.

Corporate income taxA corporate income tax (CIT) is levied by federal and state governments on business profits. Many companies are not subject to the CIT because they are taxed as pass-through businesses, with income reportable under the individual income tax. es were roughly flat, falling $5 billion, or 1 percent, to $420 billion, despite the introduction of the new minimum tax on book incomeBook income is the amount of income corporations publicly report on their financial statements to shareholders. This measure is useful for assessing the financial health of a business but often does not reflect economic reality and can result in a firm appearing profitable while paying little or no income tax. and the stock buyback tax, both part of the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) enacted last year. The Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT)The Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) is a nonpartisan congressional committee in the United States that assists both the House and Senate with tax legislation. The JCT is chaired, on a rotation, by the Chair of the Senate Finance Committee and the Chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee. predicted the new taxes would raise about $40 billion in FY 2023, but implementation challenges led the IRS to delay enforcement until further guidance is released. The IRA also provided 22 green energy tax credits, some of which may be claimed by corporations, and JCT's most recent estimates indicate the credits would reduce tax revenue (from both corporations and individuals) by about $15 billion in FY 2023.

Other receipts dropped $124 billion, or 35 percent, to $232 billion in FY 2023. The drop primarily reflects a near-zeroing out of remittances from the Federal Reserve (from $107 billion in FY 2022 to less than $1 billion in FY 2023), as higher interest rates caused the central bank's interest expense to offset its income (the Federal Reserve pays interest to banks and other institutions on their reserve balances). Customs duties also fell $20 billion due to a reduction in imports.

In sum, the federal budget continues on a perilous course. While tax revenue has increased about 28 percent since the pre-pandemic year 2019, spending has increased about 46 percent, and the deficit has more than doubled to $2 trillion. Annual deficits are headed towards $3 trillion over the next few years and interest expense is set to consume a growing share of the federal budget. Already this fiscal year, interest expense reached 16 percent of all revenue collected, the highest level since 1996. The bond market is signaling that interest expense could go much higher, leading to an unprecedented cost of servicing the debt. Now would be a good time for our political leaders to present a coherent plan for dealing with the debt problem before it becomes an urgent crisis.


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Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Just Jim NC TttH    last year

But, but, but 4.9 GDP............................idiots

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
1.1  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @1    last year

Yep. Bidenomics in action folks.jrSmiley_104_smiley_image.jpg

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
1.2  cjcold  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @1    last year

Time for the top 1% to start paying their taxes.

The rest of us sure have to.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
2  Jeremy Retired in NC    last year

And we are facing another shutdown while millions are being sent to Ukraine ($75 billion since the Russian invasion) and Israel ($14 billion pledged so far).

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3  TᵢG    last year

Who controls Federal spending?

People need to understand how our system works.   When dealing with budgets, spending, taxation, and debt we must first look at Congress.   And not just the current Congress, but the history of congresses.

A PotUS champions his positions, makes recommendations, and has the option to veto.   That is power, but it is not even close to absolute.   Focus first on the congresses because it is Congress that has the predominant control on the purse strings.

 
 
 
Freewill
Junior Quiet
3.1  Freewill  replied to  TᵢG @3    last year
People need to understand how our system works.

Pretty good rundown on that process HERE .  

Info on Biden's 2024 Budget Request HERE .

I'm trying to find info on the records showing the Presidents budget request vs. what Congress has actually appropriated each year.  That would be an interesting comparison.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.1  Tessylo  replied to  Freewill @3.1    last year

I believe tig understands all that perfectly fine.  Why did you feel the need to point that out?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.2  TᵢG  replied to  Freewill @3.1    last year

It is funny (and predictable) that some people will not read your links.   Since your first link corroborates what I posted, here is a summary from the link:

  • The President Submits a Proposed Budget to Congress
  • House and Senate Budget Committees Report the Budget Resolution
  • Full House and Senate Consider Budget Resolution
  • House and Senate Work Out Differences in Conference
  • Full House and Senate Consider Conference Agreement
  • Discretionary Spending Allocations Set by Congress
  • Appropriations Committees Develop the 13 Spending Bills
  • House and Senate Consider 13 Annual Spending Bills
  • House and Senate work out differences in Conference
  • Full House and Senate Consider 13 Conference Agreements
  • President May Sign or Veto Any or All of the Appropriations Bills
  • The Government Begins a New Fiscal Year

One might even summarize the above with:

TiG@3 ☞ A PotUS champions his positions, makes recommendations, and has the option to veto.   That is power, but it is not even close to absolute.   Focus first on the congresses because it is Congress that has the predominant control on the purse strings.

Right, Texan and JustJim?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.3  TᵢG  replied to  Tessylo @3.1.1    last year

I think Freewill is trying to emphasize my point.   I appreciate it.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
3.1.5  seeder  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.2    last year

Leave me off of your snark commentary. Just because I vote up a comment doesn't mean I agree 100% with it. It means there is some merit to what is being posted. Knock it off please. You do that bullshit all the time. I know it must hurt your feelings that another doesn't think like you but cry by some other method.

Thank you so much.

 
 
 
Freewill
Junior Quiet
3.1.7  Freewill  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.3    last year
I think Freewill is trying to emphasize my point.   I appreciate it.

Indeed I was and thanks.  Some folks find fault in no matter what I post, even when I agree with them.  I don't agree enough I suppose, or inject enough partisan venom.  Ah well, such is the blogosphere.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.8  Tessylo  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.3    last year

That's great.  Fantastic.  Glad to hear it.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.9  Tessylo  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3.1.5    last year

The only one crying here is you.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.10  Tessylo  replied to  Freewill @3.1.7    last year

Venom?  jrSmiley_80_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Freewill
Junior Quiet
3.1.11  Freewill  replied to  Tessylo @3.1.10    last year
Venom?

That's what I said...

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.12  TᵢG  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3.1.5    last year
Leave me off of your snark commentary. Just because I vote up a comment doesn't mean I agree 100% with it.

Do you agree with this or not?:

  • The President Submits a Proposed Budget to Congress
  • House and Senate Budget Committees Report the Budget Resolution
  • Full House and Senate Consider Budget Resolution
  • House and Senate Work Out Differences in Conference
  • Full House and Senate Consider Conference Agreement
  • Discretionary Spending Allocations Set by Congress
  • Appropriations Committees Develop the 13 Spending Bills
  • House and Senate Consider 13 Annual Spending Bills
  • House and Senate work out differences in Conference
  • Full House and Senate Consider 13 Conference Agreements
  • President May Sign or Veto Any or All of the Appropriations Bills
  • The Government Begins a New Fiscal Year

Do you agree with this or not?:

TiG@3 ☞ A PotUS champions his positions, makes recommendations, and has the option to veto.   That is power, but it is not even close to absolute.   Focus first on the congresses because it is Congress that has the predominant control on the purse strings.

Take a stand.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.14  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.13    last year
why do you seemingly always assume no one knows anything but you?

I do not hold that position.   

So are you going to comment on the content of my post or simply engage in personal attacks?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.16  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.15    last year

Do you believe the PotUS is predominantly in control of spending or do you believe Congress is predominantly in control of spending?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.18  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.17    last year

Then you understand that it is Congress that is predominantly in control of spending.   The PotUS can champion, recommend and veto but Congress holds the hammer.

And that also means that you know that spending is a function of a series of congresses because the decisions made by one Congress often goes into effect in the future.

Thus the spending we see is in part legacy (from prior congresses) and part current (from the current Congress).   

This is what you know, right?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.20  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.19    last year

I am not telling you what you understand; you stated that you understand this and I am acknowledging that.

So do you understand this or not?    The fact that you are objecting makes me think that you disagree.

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
3.1.21  evilone  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.18    last year
Thus the spending we see is in part legacy (from prior congresses) and part current (from the current Congress).   

Interest on debt (inflation) also plays it's part in the deficit. Something Congress should be working on rather than fake impeachment inquiries.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.23  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.22    last year

Yes the English meaning of those words (in context) is exactly what I stated.   They are acknowledging what you have stipulated.

Your continued objection makes me think that —in spite of the fact that you declare understanding— you do indeed disagree with what I posted @3.1.12

If you disagree then make your case.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.26  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.24    last year

I asked you a question.  I also asked you to make your case if you disagree with my post @3.1.12

If you cannot bring yourself to answer this dead-on-topic question then stop making accusations about me as a deflection.   When you make accusations, I will respond in defense.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.27  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.25    last year
in no way can I be held responsible for your misconceptions.

Okay, then logically you agree with my post @3.1.12

Nothing left to discuss.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.30  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.29    last year
You are the only one thinking I objected for some strange reason.

Hell, Texan, nobody could possibly know from your prior posts.

But you have finally posted clarity.   You agree with my post @3.1.12.

So, again, there is nothing left to discuss.   

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.32  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.31    last year

Note how you keep perpetuating this nonsense.   You are the one making allegations, not me.

I simply asked for clarity.   We are done.  You should move on.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.34  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.33    last year

So since you and I are in full agreement, why do you suppose so many seem to think a current PotUS has so much control over spending?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.36  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.35    last year

I would rather have a discussion about the topic.   Thus I have asked a question about the topic.

Since you and I are in full agreement, why do you suppose so many seem to think a current PotUS has so much control over spending?

 
 
 
Freewill
Junior Quiet
3.1.37  Freewill  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.2    last year
Since your first link corroborates what I posted, here is a summary from the link

Indeed, good breakdown! Found an interesting article HERE on the history of the CBO.

Beginning in the early 1920s, the President began to assume more prominence in setting the federal budget. The Budget and Accounting Act of 1921 gave the President overall responsibility for budget planning by requiring him to submit an annual, comprehensive budget proposal to the Congress; that act also expanded the President’s control over budgetary information by establishing the Bureau of the Budget (renamed the Office of Management and Budget in 1971). By contrast, the Congress lacked institutional capacity to establish and enforce budgetary priorities, coordinate actions on spending and revenue legislation, or develop budgetary and economic information independently of the executive branch.

Conflict between the legislative and executive branches reached a high point during the summer of 1974, when Members of Congress objected to President Richard Nixon’s threats to withhold Congressional appropriations for programs that were inconsistent with his policies (a process known as impoundment). The dispute led to the enactment of the Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974 in July of that year.

That act reasserted the Congress’s constitutional control over the budget by establishing new procedures for controlling impoundments and by instituting a formal process through which the Congress could develop, coordinate, and enforce its own budgetary priorities independently of the President. In addition, the law created new legislative institutions to implement the new Congressional budget process: the House and Senate Budget Committees to oversee execution of the budget process and the Congressional Budget Office to provide the Budget Committees and the Congress with objective, impartial information about budgetary and economic issues. The agency began operating on February 24, 1975, when   Alice Rivlin   was appointed its first Director.

Still trying to find a yearly history of the Presidential Budget Proposal vs. actual Congressional Appropriation in a given fiscal year.  I think that would be fascinating to see.  I have seen that the President typically provides his proposal in late Feb or March, but can also modify it as the year progresses, as events occur, or new legislation is passed.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.39  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.38    last year

Okay, you do not want to opine on why so many seem to think a current PotUS has so much control over spending.

Do you think it was sensible for our framers to make Congress the body that has predominant constitutional control over the purse strings?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.41  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.40    last year

No opinion to offer on our framer's choice to make Congress the body with predominant constitutional control over the purse strings?

Do you think we should give a PotUS more spending power since right now the PotUS can only lobby, recommend, and veto (or not) spending legislation?    Is that enough power?   Does Congress have too much power?

Spending and borrowing seems to be out of control.   Is this predominantly the fault of the Legislative or the Executive branch?

 
 
 
Freewill
Junior Quiet
3.1.43  Freewill  replied to  evilone @3.1.21    last year
Interest on debt (inflation) also plays it's part in the deficit.

Indeed,  As the article points out,

Interest payments on the debt increased 33 percent, from $534 billion in FY 2022 to $711 billion in FY 2023. Defense spending grew 7 percent, from $727 billion to $774 billion. If this rate of increase continues, interest on the debt will overtake spending on defense next year.

THAT is scary!

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.44  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.42    last year
I have opinions ...

Okay.   Since my questions are all spot on topic and you have opinions, you have the floor.

What are your opinions?    If you want just one question, how about:

Spending and borrowing seems to be out of control; is this predominantly the fault of the Legislative or the Executive branch?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.46  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.45    last year

Why do you insist on me answering questions for you?    If I did you would simply complain.

The topic is the federal budget deficit.   Who is predominantly responsible is certainly an important question.

Given you understand this topic and have opinions, you have the floor to topically, thoughtfully opine.

This question is good:

Spending and borrowing seems to be out of control; is this predominantly the fault of the Legislative or the Executive branch?

But I have others.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.48  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.47    last year

You keep referring me to this truly ridiculous post:

Texan @3.1.35 ☞ Let's cut the rhetoric down and just go ahead and tell me what I think 

My response is this:

TiG @3.1.46 ☞ Why do you insist on me answering questions for you?    If I did you would simply complain.

I am asking you what you think.   I am presenting topical questions that should be of direct interest to anyone participating in this discussion.    But you apparently have no interest in discussing the topic and would rather I just tell you what you think.

Fascinating.

Well, I prefer to not try to get inside your mind.   So go ahead and speak for yourself.

Let's try it again.   I think this question is decent, but I can offer others if this is too much for you to handle:

Spending and borrowing seems to be out of control; is this predominantly the fault of the Legislative or the Executive branch?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.50  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.49    last year

When people ask a question, the normal protocol is for the recipient to deliver the answer.

It would be absurd for the person asking the question to also answer it.

Given you continue to post in this seed, one would naturally expect that you have opinions on spot-on-topic questions.    You have told us all that you have opinions yet you keep referring me to a post where you ask me to tell you what you think.

That is very strange.

Maybe you can handle this one:   

Who do you think would be the best PotUS (if you could pick the individual) for dealing with our budget deficit and what, specifically, do you think that individual should do to address this growing problem?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.53  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.51    last year
Just tell me whatever it is you need to hear.

You have stated that you have opinions on this topic.  Enlighten us:

Who do you think would be the best PotUS (if you could pick the individual) for dealing with our budget deficit and what, specifically, do you think that individual should do to address this growing problem?

If you do not like this question, I have others.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.55  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.54    last year

I am asking questions on the topic and giving you the floor.   Seems odd that you keep insisting that I tell you what to think.

Here are the questions I have posed.   You apparently have no answer for any of them:

  • Why do you suppose so many seem to think a current PotUS has so much control over spending?
  • Do you think it was sensible for our framers to make Congress the body that has predominant constitutional control over the purse strings?
  • Do you think we should give a PotUS more spending power since right now the PotUS can only lobby, recommend, and veto (or not) spending legislation?   
  • Is that enough power?   
  • Does Congress have too much power?
  • Spending and borrowing seems to be out of control.   Is this predominantly the fault of the Legislative or the Executive branch?
  • Who do you think would be the best PotUS (if you could pick the individual) for dealing with our budget deficit and what, specifically, do you think that individual should do to address this growing problem?

I can offer easier questions.   We can always go back to the basics:

Who has predominant control of spending, the Executive or the Legislative branch?   

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.57  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.56    last year

You keep replying yet cannot seem to formulate an answer to even the most basic topical question.

Let's make it even easier:

What, in your opinion, are the powers of the Executive branch that can most influence annual spending limits (the budget)?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.59  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.58    last year

Amazing that you want someone to tell you what to say.   You have an opinion, surely you can voice it.   Given you keep responding with deflection after deflection, you clearly have plenty of time to kill.   Why not put it to productive use and opine directly on the topic of this seed:

Try the opposite easy question:

What, in your opinion, are the powers of the Legislative branch that can most influence annual spending limits (the budget)?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.61  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.60    last year

Okay, an even easier inquiry:

How much blame should a sitting PotUS have for spending during his watch?    Should the PotUS be blamed for all of it because he is ultimately in charge of the government?   Or should the blame be proportional to the realistic control that he has?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.63  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.62    last year

Maybe you are more comfortable with partisan questions:

Is Biden's fault for spending under his watch the same as Trump's fault for spending under his watch?    Are they both primarily to blame or would you think the blame falls more on the congresses during their terms?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.65  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.64    last year

You have no opinion on this?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.67  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.66    last year

You want me to try to read your mind?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.69  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.68    last year

Why do you need someone to tell you what you should believe?    Engage in critical thinking, draw a conclusion, and express it.   Of course, I recommend that you do enough thinking (and research) to be highly confident that you are on solid ground before making such a post.

But this topic is actually rather easy to research.   And it is not complicated.

Besides, I have thrown some very slow, straight softballs.    Some really easy questions for discussion.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.71  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.70    last year
...  but since I am powerless to stop people from doing exactly that

How strange.  You have written probably a dozen posts by now asking me to tell you what you believe and I have been encouraging you to do your own thinking and express yourself. 

I have even provided numerous topical questions to serve a foundation for your opinion.

I think my questions are easy to understand and not difficult to answer.   And they certainly are spot-on-topic.

Look, if you are concerned about being wrong then I already offered some good advice.   In this topic, it is very easy to be on the right side of the truth.   And if you are, your opinions are easily defended.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.73  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.72    last year
I told you a long while back that I understood how government works,

Yes, and thus you have declared yourself competent to discuss this topic.

... but you insist on asking dumb questions

Oh is that the problem?   You think my questions are 'dumb'?

So in a seed discussing the federal budget deficit growth as it relates to the PotUS, you consider these to be 'dumb' questions:

  • Why do you suppose so many seem to think a current PotUS has so much control over spending?
  • Do you think it was sensible for our framers to make Congress the body that has predominant constitutional control over the purse strings?
  • Do you think we should give a PotUS more spending power since right now the PotUS can only lobby, recommend, and veto (or not) spending legislation?   
  • Is that enough power?   
  • Does Congress have too much power?
  • Spending and borrowing seems to be out of control.   Is this predominantly the fault of the Legislative or the Executive branch?
  • Who do you think would be the best PotUS (if you could pick the individual) for dealing with our budget deficit and what, specifically, do you think that individual should do to address this growing problem?
  • What, in your opinion, are the powers of the Executive branch that can most influence annual spending limits (the budget)?
  • What, in your opinion, are the powers of the Legislative branch that can most influence annual spending limits (the budget)?
  • How much blame should a sitting PotUS have for spending during his watch?   
  • Should the PotUS be blamed for all of it because he is ultimately in charge of the government?   Or should the blame be proportional to the realistic control that he has?
  • Is Biden's fault for spending under his watch the same as Trump's fault for spending under his watch?    Are they both primarily to blame or would you think the blame falls more on the congresses during their terms?
Again, just tell me what you need to hear.

How about a thoughtful response to at least one of the questions?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.75  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.74    last year

Well when you call my questions 'dumb' I do interpret that as you thinking my questions are 'dumb' and that you are not answering them because they are 'dumb'.

What then were you trying to say?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.77  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.76    last year

Yup, you have spent the day dodging on-topic questions with feeble and laughable excuses.    You were not able to muster whatever was needed to discuss this topic thoughtfully.

Not that I am surprised you refused to take a stand; after all taking a clear stand is risky since one might be shown to be wrong.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.79  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.78    last year

You stated that you understood how government works.   I said that was great and then with your professed knowledge as an assumption, posed thoughtful questions that would allow a thoughtful person to engage this topic.

You then illustrated, clear as a bell, just how far you would go in deflection rather than stand up and answer topical questions.

If you never commit, you can never be found wrong.   Not an uncommon approach.

Just accept an answer, FFS!

You refused to answer my questions.   Did you notice?

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
3.1.81  cjcold  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.48    last year

Congress holds the purse strings.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.82  TᵢG  replied to  cjcold @3.1.81    last year

Indeed

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Masters Guide
3.1.83  Right Down the Center  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.80    last year
I told you repeatedly that I would answer when you told me what my opinion was. Still waiting, btw.

  Whenever I tell my wife to tell me what to say or what I am thinking she understands exactly what I am saying.  I guess some folks still don't get it even after you say it a dozen or so times.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
3.1.84  seeder  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3.1.5    last year

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.86  Tessylo  replied to  Freewill @3.1.11    last year

You were wrong.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3.2  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @3    last year
Who controls Federal spending?

People need to understand how our system works.   When dealing with budgets, spending, taxation, and debt we must first look at Congress.   And not just the current Congress, but the history of congresses.

A PotUS champions his positions, makes recommendations, and has the option to veto.   That is power, but it is not even close to absolute.   Focus first on the congresses because it is Congress that has the predominant control on the purse strings.

As the executive, PotUS is responsible for government performing authorized activities at the lowest cost to the public.  Congress establishes the limits on executive activity and amounts to be spent performing those activities.

The list of Congressional budget actions provided in @3.1 and @3.1.2 does not include the authorization step in the budget process.  Congress goes through a formal review of authority for existing and requested executive activities before deliberating appropriations for those activities.  Congressional authorization for executive activities determines how much flexibility the PotUS may exert over spending.  In some cases Congressional authorization is a requirement to pursue specific executive activities.  But quite often the Congressional authorizations allows executive judgement and control over engaging in activities and whether or not to spend money on activities.  

Unfortunately the common practice in the executive bureaucracy is to 'use it or lose it'.  The various agencies will spend to the limit of Congressional appropriations even though that was not the intent of Congress.  The bad practice of 'use it or lose it' is entirely within the purview of PotUS.  PotUS actually has the final say over Federal spending.  That's why OMB, GAO, IRS, and the Treasury Dept. (among other agencies) are under the direction of PotUS.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.2.1  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @3.2    last year
As the executive, PotUS is responsible for government performing authorized activities at the lowest cost to the public.

Political responsibility and the ability to control are at odds.   A PotUS is politically responsible for pretty much anything that happens on his watch.   It is a ridiculous expectation by the public, but that is reality.

Holding a PotUS responsible for something does not mean a PotUS actually has the responsibility (per the CotUS) or that a PotUS has power that would allow him to exercise sufficient control over this something to effect a desired outcome.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
4  Sean Treacy    last year

Insane... We are not at war.  There's no national health emergency, nor any other kind. 

Full speed ahead to the entitlement crisis. 

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
4.1  cjcold  replied to  Sean Treacy @4    last year
There's no national health emergency,

So you deny the reality of covid?

How about anthropogenic climate change?

Thankfully, ignorant far right-wing deniers will be the first to go.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
5  Jeremy Retired in NC    last year
Outside of the pandemic years, this year's federal deficit is the highest in U.S. history.

Another "Biden accomplishment" for the list.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
5.1  cjcold  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @5    last year

It's all about covid which Trump denied.

Trump is responsible for it getting so bad.

Trump is responsible for the cost.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
5.1.2  cjcold  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.1    last year

So you deny the fact that Trump denied the reality of covid?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
5.1.3  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  cjcold @5.1.2    last year
So you deny the fact that Trump denied the reality of covid?

Sounds like a double dog denial or do you deny it?

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
5.1.4  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  cjcold @5.1    last year

Did you miss the part where the article states (and I quoted in 5):  Outside of the pandemic years, this year's federal deficit is the highest in U.S. history. 

[Deleted]

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
7  JBB    last year

In other words, a trillion less than Trump's in 2020!

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
7.2  Tessylo  replied to  JBB @7    last year

jrSmiley_81_smiley_image.gif jrSmiley_81_smiley_image.gif

jrSmiley_93_smiley_image.jpg

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
7.3  seeder  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JBB @7    last year

Covid

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
7.3.2  Tessylo  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @7.3    last year

Which means?

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
7.3.3  seeder  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Tessylo @7.3.2    last year

[deleted]

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
7.3.4  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Texan1211 @7.3.1    last year
more people died under Biden

Wasn't that one of the reasons Biden stated for a President to step down?

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
7.3.6  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Texan1211 @7.3.5    last year

I write it up as another dementia related incident.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
7.3.7  Tessylo  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @7.3.3    last year

So it meant nothing then.

Got it.

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Masters Guide
7.3.8  Right Down the Center  replied to  Tessylo @7.3.7    last year

Try again

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
7.3.9  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Right Down the Center @7.3.8    last year

An impossible dream:

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
7.3.10  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Texan1211 @7.3.5    last year

He has been all along.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
7.3.11  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Right Down the Center @7.3.8    last year

Would not accomplish anything.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
7.3.12  cjcold  replied to  Texan1211 @7.3.1    last year

The time frame makes Trump liable.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
7.3.14  cjcold  replied to  Texan1211 @7.3.1    last year

Biden inherited the results of Trump's idiotic policies.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
7.3.15  cjcold  replied to  cjcold @7.3.14    last year

Just like Trump inherited Obama's great economy which he claimed for himself and then ruined. 

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Masters Guide
7.3.16  Right Down the Center  replied to  cjcold @7.3.14    last year

Which policies are those?

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
7.3.18  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Texan1211 @7.3.17    last year

Anything Biden may have inherited from the Trump administration, Biden has compounded things and made them considerably worse since he has been in office. 

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
7.5  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  JBB @7    last year

I guess you missed the part of the article that stated:  Outside of the pandemic years

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
7.5.2  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Texan1211 @7.5.1    last year

I'm honestly surprised there was no stupid ass meme.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
7.5.3  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @7.5.2    last year

Give it time.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
8  Vic Eldred    last year

I just had a thought that would strike fear in the hearts of the ruling elite.

How about a return to the GOLD STANDARD. 

In other words: No more printing money. No more devaluing the savings of the working class.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
9  Drinker of the Wry    last year

Deficits typically fall when the economy is strong and growing.  With a deficit this high  know, how high will it be when he have the next big crises (war/pandemic/market or bank collapse) ?  Servicing the federal deck will continue to cost more as it grows and inflation grows. What will next years student loan buyout cost?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.2  Vic Eldred  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9    last year
Deficits typically fall when the economy is strong and growing.

That is why Bill Clinton benefited from Reaganomics.


 With a deficit this high  know, how high will it be when he have the next big crises (war/pandemic/market or bank collapse) ? 

Yup, it never gets paid off, we just go from crisis to crisis.


Servicing the federal deck will continue to cost more as it grows and inflation grows.

And nobody cares.


What will next years student loan buyout cost?

It is a vote getter though.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
9.2.2  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.2    last year
And nobody cares.

I care.  Greatly.   Trouble is, neither of the major parties seem to care.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.2.3  Vic Eldred  replied to  TᵢG @9.2.2    last year

That is true. I don't see how that debt is paid off. All I see is the people's savings being devalued.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
9.2.4  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.2.3    last year

The way our debt can be paid off is simple in concept but quite difficult to achieve.

  • Increase our GDP.   This can be done IMO (have stated this for over a decade now) by the USA becoming the world leader in energy technology and in energy exports.   Preferably, eventually, predominantly renewable energy.
  • Fiscal discipline for future spending

Without substantially increasing our GDP, I see no escape from our debt.

By the way, I also advocate a very serious overall of spending to cut the waste that clearly exists.   But no party benefits from this so it never gets done.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
9.2.5  JBB  replied to  TᵢG @9.2.4    last year

Yes, and only after tax dollars are chasing the available goods and service making is so government spending can theoretically be off the books without effecting the consumer economy except around the edges. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
9.2.7  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.2    last year
That is why Bill Clinton benefited from Reaganomics.

There was that and the tech bubble resulting from Al Gore’s invention of the internet.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
9.2.8  TᵢG  replied to  JBB @9.2.5    last year

I am not sure I understand your point.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
9.2.9  JBB  replied to  TᵢG @9.2.8    last year

Gross income is basically irrelevant as to the consumer markets for goods and services as there are a finite number of dollars (after tax net income dollars) at any given time chasing a finite amount of consumer goods and services. Taxes can go up or down with minimal effect on supply and demand for consumer goods. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
9.2.10  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @9.2.9    last year
there are a finite number of dollars (after tax net income dollars) at any given time 

Quantitative easing as practiced by the Fed can increase the money supply.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
9.2.11  cjcold  replied to  JBB @9.2.9    last year

[]

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
9.2.12  cjcold  replied to  TᵢG @9.2.2    last year

This independent centrist cares about Trump fascism trashing America.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
9.2.13  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  cjcold @9.2.11    last year

You find 9.2.8 to be a fascist?

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
9.2.14  bugsy  replied to  cjcold @9.2.12    last year
This independent centrist

That's hilarious...

Ans so wrong.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Participates
10  Thrawn 31    last year

Sounds like we need to either freeze or drastically slow spending and get a pretty substantial boost in revenue. 

 
 

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