The fact that I had a college degree helped me get my foot in the door of corporate America, after I retired from the Army, but it was the skills and experience from my military career that landed the job and enabled me to move up the management levels in my second career.

How about you?

Kind of similar. I joined the Air Force as I was not ready to go to college. High School was just too easy and I had some very bad habits as well as the need to grow up before starting college, I'm very confident I would have flunked out. But I didn't retire from the Air Force, spent my four years and grew up and then went to college. Having the time to grow up was a huge help in the success I have had throughout my life. 

A college degree opened doors for me, but it was the experience and willingness to work that allowed me to progress in my professional career. The experience, maturity and willingness to work that I learned both from growing up on a farm and my time in the military. 

I believe that some sort of public service (could be military and/or other public service) for everybody coming out of High School would be a bigger benefit than just pushing them into college. 

I did the opposite. I got my BS degree THEN joined the Air Force....as a grunt. I fooled around in college and didn't graduate with a very good grade point average. However, the Air Force over looked that, enlisted me, gave me 2 stripes, and the jog I needed that was what I studied in college. After I got out, I got a good job doing what I got my degree in and what I did in the Air Force.

My education was worth it, but it took the military to give me the discipline, the maturity, and the skills to make me marketable

I believe that some sort of public service (could be military and/or other public service) for everybody coming out of High School would be a bigger benefit than just pushing them into college. 

Agreed. Minimum of two years.

My daughter got a degree in Psychology/Behavioral Health, 1st job she got is paying just slightly less than my wife is making after 25 years at the same company.  Daughter just bought a 1 year old used SUV, and is currently shopping for a house to buy.

As icing on the cake, her job is directly within what her degree covered, so she is quite happy.

That question was a curse on this country.

Everyone going to college on the basis on how much earning power they have by itself has made those degrees worth less and has been a part of the ridiculous tuition costs.

A very simplistic answer to a very complicated question in my view, but thanks for your perspective.

Technical schools (high school and community college level) are capable of providing a life skill and earning basis for millions of Americans.  On one point I agree, paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to go to an elite school for a degree that will not advance or sustain your lifestyle is ridiculous.

Supply and demand is at play here.    When universities fill up, they can expand and they can raise prices.    On top of that, the benefit of more people with the ability to pay has the drawback effect of universities raising prices because they can be absorbed by the market.

This also applies to tech schools.    

Economic reality is difficult.   The key way to lower prices for higher education / training is to have a shortage of students yet we want an abundance of students because highly skilled individuals contribute better to the GDP.   

A man who cannot think is not an educated man however many college degrees he may have acquired.

Our great history has been that people came to Michigan because you didn't have to have a college degree to get a good-paying job. Consequently, we have got a larger number of our population that right now are facing outsourcing, et cetera, without higher or advanced degrees.

If everyone in America got a college degree would that end poverty?

LOL.

We would have poor people with a college degree. 

Capitalism is based on paying workers as little as possible. 

Capitalism is based on paying workers as little as possible. 

• Private ownership of property
• Market competition in free markets
• Profit motive

Capitalism is based on paying workers as little as possible. 

relates directly to Profit motive.

Yes, just incomplete as the basis.

John

No one said that it would.

The underlying point to the chart was that young people should be more circumspect in what they choose to get a degree in (if they go to college) as the value of some degrees is far below the cost of getting them

young people should be more circumspect

Maybe so, but the old Army ads say "be what you can be".

They are Americans. 

They are roughly the 10th generation of people raised to be fiercely arrogant, independent and believe in their dreams.

The other old saying is that you can lead a horse to water but...you cannot make it drink.

Maybe so, but the old Army ads say "be what you can be".

The Army ad says nothing of the sort

The motto was "Be All You Can Be" - another is "Duty, Honor, Country"

Have they removed "Duty, Honor, Country" as the West Point motto?

The Army ad says nothing of the sort

Sure it does.

We are an organization of endless possibilities. You can do anything you want in the United States Army. You can be anything you want to be.  You can BE ALL YOU CAN BE , because no other organization comes close to America’s Army when it comes to empowering and equipping our people to challenge themselves and achieve excellence. A message from the Army Senior Leaders - Be All You Can Be! | Article | The United States Army

Duty, Honor, Country belonged to Douglas Mac Arthur who wrote the book with the same title and his last public speach.

Duty ,  Honor ,  Country : Those three hallowed words reverently dictate what you ought to be, what you can be , what you will be. They are your rallying points: to build courage when courage … Duty, Honor, Country - Department of Military Science | Jackson State University

The motto of the United States Military Academy at West Point is "Duty, Honor, Country." This motto becomes firmly fixed in the minds and characters of the graduates through daily association and practical application. For generations many of the military leaders of the nation have used it as their guide to proper standards of conduct. This motto has generally permeated throughout the military forces since the Naval Academy at Annapolis is also in accord with this code. Under the honor system lying, quibbling, evasive statements, or technicalities in order to shield guilt or defeat justice are not tolerated. This code requires courage and honesty regardless of consequences.

United States Military Academy - Wikiquote

Have they removed "Duty, Honor, Country" as the West Point motto?

No. Although it was not part of the original motto it stood for the last 100 plus years...

For more than a century, three words have stood as the iconic motto of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point: "duty, honor, country."

That hasn't changed.

Here's what has: For a shorter time — about 26 years — "duty, honor, country" had also appeared in the academy's mission statement.

Then, this week, West Point's superintendent announced that the academy would modify its mission statement to drop the three-word phrase in favor of "the Army Values," a reference to a broader set of seven attributes that serve as the Army's ethos.

In a letter to graduates announcing the change , Lt. Gen. Steve Gilland wrote that the change to the mission statement would better bind West Point to the Army at large. "Duty, Honor, Country is foundational to the United States Military Academy's culture and will always remain our motto," he said.

West Point drops 'duty, honor, country' from mission statement, not motto : NPR

Of course it did not stop today's conservatives from losing their minds.

I asked a few WP graduates I know but they are all my age and it wasn't a part of the mission statement when they graduated in the 70's and they didn't care.

Gee thanks Vic, Wiki? You shouldn't have. /s

It is always a pleasure. The moto was there long before MacArthur wrote his book, attended West Point or made his speech there.

I look forward to future discussions on all aspects of it.

The moto was there long before MacArthur wrote his book, attended West Point or made his speech there.

Did I say otherwise? 

West Point was founded in 1802 and had a rough time during and after the Civil War

which saw the rise of VMI to prominence in the South as an alternative to West Point.

West Point changed their motto in 1898 to be more inclusive and national as opposed to being seen as a

Northern institution.

Did I say otherwise? 

You said:

Duty, Honor, Country belonged to Douglas Mac Arthur who wrote the book with the same title and his last public speach.

That might give people the wrong impression.

It is ok. 

young people should be more circumspect in what they choose to get a degree in

Some will disagree with me, but I agree with this statement. My daughter wanted to study music to be a movie composer. Her father and I had a long talk with her about that career choice. In the end she got her BSN and is now happily employed working in the NICU at the state Children's Hospital

I had difficulty reading the chart so found a larger size.  Since I found it, I'll post it here for everyone's benefit.  Here's a link to the source website:  CollegeNPV

I don't have a problem with the idea of bailing out students with debt.  Many of them were indoctrinated, exploited, and duped into pursuing college degrees by financial shysters trying to make an easy buck.    What causes heartburn is the way Joe Biden is going about relieving student debt.  Biden is really just bailing out shyster lenders and money sucking academics.  Biden's money giveaway only encourages the shysters to scam more young people for undeserved profits.  

A lot of these people saddled with student debt were misled while they were in high school.  And there are people who were scammed into believing that a college degree would allow entrance into the 'privileged' parts of society.  Those of us who've been around the block a few times know that the real world doesn't work that way.  Yes, these former students are responsible for their debt. 

But the shysters, scammers, flimflam artists, bamboozlers, and cheaters in finance and education are the root cause of the problem.  They're the guilty parties who need to be held accountable.  Simply forgiving student loans actually reward those who have caused the problem.  That's not just wrong; that's stupid.

According to your chart,  degrees in social services , history, philosophy and religion are worthless. How nice for humanity. 

Nerm

Thanks for the bigger chart.

AS to the "bailing out point" how about bailing out people who are in over their heads with mortgages?  Or how about repaying people who paid off their student loans?

The simple answer is to declare bankruptcy which should take care of the mortgage issues.

The complicated part is that student loans are not easily discharged in bankruptcy because it's illegal except in cases of severe hardship which few can qualify for. 

Remove the restriction on bankruptcy and put all debtors on the same footing as gamblers and tax evaders...

Remove the restriction on bankruptcy and put all debtors on the same footing as gamblers and tax evaders.

Or simply have the people who gave their word to pay back the student loan pay back the loan

Unless of course money would be refunded to all who kept their words and paid back their student loans

AS to the "bailing out point" how about bailing out people who are in over their heads with mortgages?  Or how about repaying people who paid off their student loans?

As you point out, the overriding problem is debt in general.  Lenders don't produce anything so they're not contributing to creation of wealth.  Lender predation and exploitation, whether for education, mortgages, or car loans, is destroying the productive economy.  Reliance on credit transfer any produced wealth to non-producers in the economy.

With debt backed by tangible value, such as a house, the lender is protected at the expense of the borrower.  But debt for an intangible value, such as education, would place too much risk on the lenders.  There's nothing to foreclose in the case of default.  So, the borrower must carry all the risk forever.

Joe Biden is not bailing out student borrowers.  The student debt is not being forgiven.  The debt burden has been transferred to taxpayers while protecting lenders from exposure to the risk of default.  Biden is just imposing another iteration of bailing out banks on the productive parts of the economy.  That's the problem with finance, produced wealth is sucked up by non-producers before any distribution can take place.

Or simply have the people who gave their word to pay back the student loan pay back the loan

And that has students, often teenagers making decisions they don't have the comprehension yet to see the consequences that far down the road.

One of my own stuck me with a student loan in my 60's.  She told me her mother told her how to use my info to guarantee the loan.  I paid it off.

If this country can allow everyone else who gave their word to pay back loans, including Donald Trump, bankrupting casinos, to escape those responsibilities through bankruptcy, then I think the law needs to be rolled back so all Americans are equal again.

Nerm,

I do not understand your comment. No one makes kids go to college. Guidance counselors try to guide kids into fields that will best meet their needs. So, who are the flim-flam men you are talking about? Do you think the lenders go out looking for kids, or vice versa?

Even technical schools are expensive these days. 

Two items have outpaced inflation, education and housing, and not so oddly enough, these are the two things that affect life, other than food and healthcare.

If there was an easy answer for all of this, there would be a cure. 

btw, I am not for bailing out student loans, because it is unfair to those who struggled to repay.

I am not for bailing out student loans, because it is unfair to those who struggled to repay

The absolute most important point that so many tend to forget

I do not understand your comment. No one makes kids go to college. Guidance counselors try to guide kids into fields that will best meet their needs. So, who are the flim-flam men you are talking about? Do you think the lenders go out looking for kids, or vice versa?

Degrees have not become a condition of employment?  Kids have not been repeatedly told that college education will provide more income and a better quality of life?  Where did the slogan 'a mind is a terrible thing to waste' come from?  And isn't the point of that slogan to emphasize the importance of college education?

Even technical schools are expensive these days.

EVERYTHING is more expensive these days.  And becoming more expensive every day.  Isn't the constant inflation required to maintain a finance based economy devaluing income and quality of life?  Credit and debt takes away the future for today's gratification. 

Two items have outpaced inflation, education and housing, and not so oddly enough, these are the two things that affect life, other than food and healthcare.

What did everyone think would happen by allowing the financial sector to capture produced wealth before it can be distributed?  If people spend next years income by borrowing today, what will they live on next year?  The lenders have already captured next years income before it has been earned.  

If there was an easy answer for all of this, there would be a cure. 

Bring back Glass-Steagall.  Decentralize the economy.  Don't allow the Federal Reserve to force the economy to maintain a constant rate of inflation.  Allow deflation to naturally occur and rebalance the economy.  Let the big banks fail.  Revoke the charter of Citibank.

btw, I am not for bailing out student loans, because it is unfair to those who struggled to repay.

A viable alternative would be to reform bankruptcy laws to allow for default.  Why should an 18 year old student taking on debt to acquire education be saddled with the debt until retirement?  Why do lenders have the right to take away someone's income for their entire working life?

No, if students are burdened with debt that long then default becomes the alternative.  The political imperative to protect lenders at the expense of people is misguided and is wrecking our future.

The absolute most important point that so many tend to forget

No one is forgetting.  Some uptight asshole that thinks all college graduates are liberals, stuck a provision into a spending bill in 1976.  The same asshole continues to hold that students will abuse the bankruptcy route if available with absolutely no data to support that assumption.

History of Bankruptcy Law, Student Loans and Debt Relief

But the shysters, scammers, flimflam artists, bamboozlers, and cheaters in finance and education are the root cause of the problem.  They're the guilty parties who need to be held accountable.  Simply forgiving student loans actually reward those who have caused the problem.  That's not just wrong; that's stupid.

I'm not following this. First, since i'm self uneducated, I don't understand how forgiving the 'students' of the financial obligation "actually rewards those who have caused the problem."

I guess I should mention i'm really not pro forgiveness, but since I only attended a quarter of a semester at a community college, you can see why I lack the knowledge, yet, i don't see how this punishes the shysters, scammers, flimflam arytists, bamboozlers, and cheaters in finance and education" who U state are the "root cause of the problem." is How does taking students off the hook "rewards those who caused the problem", when I believe it was the financial institutions who were practicing predatory lending. at least that is what i believe I read happened in many cases.

The worth of a college degree depends upon the individual's aspirations.   If one, for example, wants to be an engineer then they must secure at least a BS in their desired Engineering specialty (e.g. mechanical, electrical, mining, aerospace, petroleum, chemical, civil, ...).   If one wants to be an attorney then must secure their JD degree and pass the bar.   A doctor requires an M.D. (or variant).  On and on ...

Now, outside of the academic work, the choice of university will determine the costs of the degree.   Just securing a degree is a major benefit if one is pursuing professional careers I eluded to above because without the degree they have very little chance of operating as that professional.   But there is a career impact based on the graduating university.   There is no question that the starting salary (and career-long credibility) of a law degree from Harvard law is substantially better than a local university (assuming one gets good grades).   And graduating Wharton School is substantially better for business majors than the average university.   The better credentials will open more doors (more opportunities) throughout one's career.   How that translates into earnings depends on many other factors.

Now, if someone does not want to be a doctor, engineer, scientist, journalist, etc. but would rather be a plumber who eventually secures master plumber credentials and opens his own plumbing company, then a university degree is essentially meaningless.  (Albeit if the plumber truly wants to run a business then a degree in small business management would be quite valuable.)  What matters in this case are proper tech credentials from a good trade school and the specifics of what they did during their journeyman work experience.

My point is that the value of a college degree depends heavily on what the individual wants to do career wise.   For some, the degree has no value, for others it is essential.

Locomotive engineers only require a HS or GED plus  certification by the Federal Railroad Administration.

What is your point?

What is your point?

Lets not have him break new ground. 

That not all engineers need college.

Do you think this is funny or do you not know the difference between a professional engineer (as clearly depicted by my list of examples) and a train engineer?

The former designs and analyzes using applied mathematics and science.   The latter operates/manages a train.   Two entirely different meanings of the homograph 'engineer'.

[✘]

Locomotive engineers must first qualify as a Conductor, have seniority, pass the railroad's training classes and rules exams.  

[✘]

Computer Engineering degrees are a combination of electrical engineering and computer science.   They enable individuals who are so inclined to design, build, analyze hardware, network, and software.   Your comment (your hat) suggests that you think this degree enables one to operate a computer.

If someone wants to seriously have a career in this capacity then achieving a Computer Engineering degree is quite valuable.

pass the railroad's training classes and rules exams.

Training classes that contain SCIENCE AND MATHEMATICS and the applicability there of.  You know, those things that PROFESSIONALS use on a regular basis.

I do not think anyone is bad-mouthing train engineers.   So what is your issue?

Carpenters use mathematics (arithmetic and some geometry and very basic trigonometry) as well as science (understanding stress, the mechanics of certain materials such as lumber, steel, concrete, etc.).   But they are not engineers and they can become highly proficient strictly from on-the-job training.   They do not need an academic degree to be able to do this job.   Professional engineers, in contrast, pretty much need the foundation taught in universities (substantially higher mathematics ... multivariable calculus, differential equations, probability & statistics, etc. and science ... mechanics of materials, classical mechanics, thermodynamics, chemistry, geology, etc.) to even function in that profession.

I do not think anyone is bad-mouthing train engineers.

Comments like

The latter operates/manages a train.

sure looks like it to me.  It also does give the impression that one doesn't really know what the profession entails.  It's even laughable that you used that very statement to pathetically talk down to somebody else.

[✘]

That is what a train engineer does Jeremy.   The job of a train engineer is to operate a train and be in charge of the operations of same (e.g. security, mechanics, ...).   That is the job.

That job is fundamentally different from that of, say, an electrical engineer or a chemical engineer and the academic requirements are entirely different.

Amazing how serious some take the comments on this little site.

Sometimes adults like to have serious discussions especially when the blog is itself quite serious.

'Humor' like you offered ceased being funny in elementary school.   It was not funny or clever and simply distracted from an otherwise adult-level discussion.

That is what a train engineer does Jeremy.

You mean I did it wrong all those years? You mean I've been using mathematics and science to work up what is needed to get a train full of military equipment moving, keeping speed, slowed and stopped were not required? How the forces of gravity play a part in every little adjustment made. I've been doing all that wrong?

[deleted][✘]

You mean I did it wrong all those years? 

What on Earth are you yapping about now?   

I stated that the job of a train engineer is to operate (and that obviously entails dealing with gravity, loads, linear and angular momentum, etc.) a train and manage (be in charge of) the operations of same (e.g. security, mechanics, ...).  

Now what, precisely, is wrong with that?   Does a train engineer operate a train?   Does the train engineer manage operations e.g. security, mechanics?

[✘]

Obviously you cannot identify what is incorrect about my statement that the job of a train engineer is to operate (and that obviously entails dealing with gravity, loads, linear and angular momentum, etc.) a train and manage (be in charge of) the operations of same (e.g. security, mechanics, ...).  

Your 'attack' blew up in your face.

[✘]

yes, a trained train engineer must deal with the physics and chemistry of the physics required to move chemicals and biological's, and when there is a train accident we are all forced to deal with the physics that caused the biological and or chemical spills that kill us and our environment, what is needed researched ?

It wouldbe nice if some ventured into researchin a tad bit better on the candidates to be chosen tomorrow, cause a college education should not be required to see what is, and isn't desired, but, hey, i'd rather hop on that train asz well, but first we need avoid the possible hell, that the uninformed manged to make the normed, and far too many conformed.

physics and chemistry of the physics required to move chemicals and biological's,

Something that I didn't get into.  You know.  I was just a "train operator".  The HAZMAT is a nightmare..  

[✘]

[✘]

I, personally, am against the process of forgiving student loans. 

I agree.   If the government is going to provide funds for education, it should be for the future and not the past.   Use the money to help improve the level of expertise in the USA and do so in a manner that is not fundamentally unfair.   Forgiving past student loans is unfair in that it gives no benefit to families and students that struggled to pay for the education with little (or no) loans.   And it does nothing to help the future.   Bad idea.

Everyone probably knows highly educated yet unemployable people. There are always outliners, but on average a college degree greatly increases lifetime earnings. Because so many of their entry level applicants have degrees many large corporations and good government jobs require a degree to qualify for starting positions, even in clerical and security...

The numbers presented in the chart eem to define that some degrees are nearly worthless in comparison with others - does that not make you think that career planning and life planning should go into one's choice of major rather than simply what one likes or what is "cool" at the moment.  

College teaches one to think and to reach out to other sources for info so as you say college (regardless of field of study) adds value to one's life

You seem to be overly concerned, shall we say, with the possibility that someone might blame your social-economic class for something. 

Why would anyone blame the middle class for problems in this country?

You seem overly interested in talking about anything except the subject of the article

I think its fine to encourage young people to go to college. To imply that they are failures if they dont is not right. 

As for what I said,  having a nation of all college graduates would mean some college graduates would be poor. Unless we have socialism where everyone is paid the same salary. 

Everyone who shows up for an honest days work every day deserves respect and a decent wage whether they went to college or not. . 

Again you are talking about points other than the point of the article

People should decide for themselves - trade schools, apprenticeships, college or school of hard knocks to get to where they want to be in life but they should personally be responsible for the cost of the training they get and for making sure the training gets them on the path they want to be on

All jobs will never be paid exactly the same

My university degrees are Bachelor of Arts, majoring in English Literature, and Bachelor of Laws, and having passed the bar I carried on a successful law practice.  If I had not obtained those degrees I would have taken over my father's business and could have been even more successful financially, but might not have earned as much respect or the ability to experience the satisfaction of serving as the president of a renowned charity or the joy of teaching and the experience of living in what I consider a magical land where I am now more comfortable and happier than I might ever have been otherwise.  Realizing the value of higher education my ex-wife and I made sure that our children were well educated as well.  My daughter has a Bachelor of Arts degree and two Master's degrees and my son has a Bachelor of Arts degree and a Master's degree and both are leaders in highly successful careers.  I made sure my present wife's daughter was educated in Germany earning a Bachelor's degree in Logistics, a career that will assure her good employment, especially since she is fluent in Chinese, German and English.  I have seen a hypothetical comparison between a graduate with a degree in some esoteric field like philosophy and an electrician, showing that the life of an electrician is more successful, easier and happier than that of the university graduate.  What is most important is to choose the calling and its required education for which a person is best suited, best adapted to, intellectually prepared, and most important, desired.