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Do You Miss New York?

  
Via:  Vic Eldred  •  last year  •  97 comments

By:   Bruce Bawer (The American Spectator USA News and Politics)

Do You Miss New York?
Exactly 25 years ago, this native New Yorker finally escaped his hometown's gravitational pull and flew off to a new life in Europe.

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S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



Exactly 25 years ago, this native New Yorker finally escaped his hometown's gravitational pull and flew off to a new life in Europe.

Twenty-five years. A quarter century.

The former New Yorker, of course, is a familiar breed. One of us, a jazzman named Dave Frishberg, played piano at the Duplex, a Greenwich Village bar, in the '60s, then moved to Los Angeles, where, after finding a degree of fame, he wrote a witty, wistful tune about the topic:


Do you miss New York —
The anger, the action?
Does this laid back lifestyle
Lack a certain satisfaction?
Do you ever burn
To pack up and return to the thick of it…?


When I first heard the song, back in my own New York days, I could relate, kind of. I spent much of my 20s (too much) in L.A., sitting by the pool at the Melrose Place-type complex where a relative lived. It was, as Frishberg's lyric suggests, a very different world from New York — easier, quieter. The one problem was that, at the time, I was trying to make it as a freelance literary critic, and after a few days by the pool, invariably, I couldn't read or write anything remotely serious.

In any case, I was never in L.A. for terribly long. And I didn't want to be. I loved New York as Woody Allen does (and fully appreciated the L.A. gags in Annie Hall). And I loved living on the safe and civilized but surprisingly affordable eastern fringe of the Upper East Side, where I moved often to avoid the automatic biennial rent increases.

In memory, it's as if I never rested: after a day of reading and writing (eased into with four-plus hours of golden-age Howard Stern), I'd rush off — rain or snow, hot or cold — to dinner downtown with friends; to some off-off-Broadway play I'd heard good things about; to a writer friend's reading (usually at some little joint way downtown, occasionally at the upscale 92nd Street Y, and, once, at a tiny West Side hardware store, where a shaky John Ashbery stumbled in halfway through, zigzagged to the makeshift bar, and poured himself a giant vodka); to a book party or literary reception at some magazine's offices or the National Arts Club or the late lamented Books & Co. (where owner Jeannette Watson, a true patron of the arts, threw my own first book party); to Jimmy Ryan's jazz club on West 52nd Street (where a friend, Martha Sherrill, sang with Max Kaminsky's legendary band); to the ballet at Lincoln Center (whenever my friend Dana Gioia, the great American poet, who subscribed, had a spare ticket); or to the monthly drinks party of the Vile Body (a club for young conservative writers founded by another friend, Terry Teachout) at the midtown townhouse owned by the Manhattan Institute.

From October 1983 to June 1993, I wrote at least one article for every issue of the New Criterion, and after delivering my monthly contribution in person (and hanging around to shoot the breeze with the editors, read other people's galleys, and get sent off with a handful of free books), I'd take the elevator downstairs to the Carnegie Deli — where Woody Allen's Broadway Danny Rose begins and ends — and treat myself to a huge, pricey, impossibly delicious pastrami sandwich.

Living, first, in a sixth-floor walk-up on East 65th Street between First and York, I was pleasantly surprised by the chumminess of the neighbors, so at odds with the stereotype of New Yorkers: the charming old Hispanic lady across the hall whose dogs were named Romeo and Juliet ("they are lovers!" she gushed); Allison Burnett, the playwright in the apartment directly below mine who, years afterward, relocated to L.A. and wrote a Richard Gere romcom, Autumn in New York. Later, living on East 49th Street — a block down from Katharine Hepburn, whom I saw multiple times scampering down her front steps, still lithe and limber, to drop items in the trash — I enjoyed running around the corner, at lunchtime, in fine weather, to eat a sandwich in the U.N. gardens while perusing a review copy of whatever book I was supposed to write about next. (This was before 9/11 turned the U.N. grounds into an armed camp.) I was so young and vigorous that I'd wake at dawn to jog up and down the magnificently empty avenues. Early one morning, turning from 49th onto First, I found myself alone, as far as I could see, with Henry Kissinger, who was standing on the southeast corner with a small dog on a leash.

Still later, living at First and 54th, I liked being across the avenue from my favorite brunch place, an Irish bar called Parnell's. And last of all, living at 89th between York and East End — the very building, coincidentally, where I'd lived as an infant, and where I could buy, not rent, only because my apartment's previous owners, who'd retired to Florida after renting to a hoarder, wanted to unload it (and her) prontissimo — I loved being just a few dozen steps away from the East River. In the other direction, I was just a few blocks from the Metropolitan Museum of Art — which, in the winter, was the perfect place to stroll around for hours, piecing some text together in my head and pausing every few minutes to sit on a bench in front of a Van Gogh or a Sargent or a collection of medieval armor and scribble while the tourists flowed past. (In the Seinfeld episode "The Marine Biologist," Elaine's boss, Mr. Lippman, says that "Tolstoy used to write in the village square. The faces inspired him." That's me — Tolstoy.)

Then, of course, there was Central Park. One night when I was living on 89th Street, New York was hit by a huge snowstorm, and in the morning a friend and I trudged to the park and then all the way across it, from Fifth Avenue to Central Park West, without seeing another human being — or, for that matter, so much as a single footprint in the snow. We had the whole park, it seemed, to ourselves. It was dazzling.

My favorite flat of all was on East 85th Street — the fourth of five — where I lived on the same block as MacGyver himself, Richard Dean Anderson. One day there was a piece of paper taped to the wall in our lobby: Woody Allen was looking for an apartment to use in his next movie. (I didn't look into the offer, but when Crimes and Misdemeanors came out a year or so later, I realized he'd been scouting for digs for Anjelica Huston's character.) On 85th Street, moreover, I was right around the corner from a piano bar, Brandy's, which became my neighborhood haunt. What a joy it was to be able to put down my work and, five minutes later, hear a world-class chanteuse, Natalie Douglas (who, criminally, was obliged to double as a barmaid), belt out the standards.

It was, in many ways, a magical time. But eventually all New Yorkers start talking about leaving. Most, unable to abandon what they've told themselves is the center of the universe, never do go (although that number, thanks to the city's successive Marxist mayors and DAs, has certainly climbed). But, 25 years ago, for a combination of personal and professional reasons, I eventually decamped.


When you're back in town for a quick look around, how is it?
Does it feel like home or just another nice place to visit?


To be sure, it wasn't a final goodbye. I've been back many times. Twice to bury my parents. In 2007, I was up for a book award and my publisher treated me to a week's stay at a luxury hotel. (I lost.) In 2010, I went to New York — and traveled around the U.S. — to research another book. In 2011, briefly insolvent (not least because I'd poured so much dough into researching that book), I spent several months in and around New York on other people's couches.

That was my longest time back. Did New York feel like home? Hard to say. The circumstances were weird. And it took days to get out of the habit of addressing people in Norwegian. I went to Brandy's: the music was good, but Natalie had moved on. At Parnell's, the waitstaff — and the menu — were different. (The Sunday morning English breakfast no longer included what, in my experience, were the world's best sausages.)

Yes, I still knew Manhattan like the back of my hand. As much as ever, it was a delight to walk up and down the familiar avenues, wend my way through the crowds, grab a dirt-cheap slice of first-rate pizza, scan the bookshelves at the Strand. In one Seinfeld episode, George brags that when he's somewhere in Manhattan and nature calls, he always knows where the closest available public men's room is. I did, too. But was it home?

One day during that 2011 stay, on a crowded subway, I heard Norwegian being spoken. I never approach strangers. But this time I rushed over to the speaker — a man with two teenage sons — and started chatting away. He was indulgent. He asked, probably out of sheer politeness, for tourism advice. I told him his sons would probably enjoy the Ellis Island Immigration Museum. As soon as I got off at my stop, I was appalled at myself for having been so pathetically thrilled to run into "people from home." And I was a bit surprised to realize that, yes, even in the heart of New York, Norway was home.


And were those halcyon days
Just a youthful phase you outgrew?


"Youthful"? Yes, in memory, at least, New York was about being young. It was about having the stamina to write all day — perhaps breaking at noon to walk the six miles to and from the Mid-Manhattan Library to pick up or return a few books — and then to take a packed, jostling rush-hour subway down to Greenwich Village or the East Village or Chelsea, attend some cultural event, spend hours afterwards shooting the breeze in a noisy eatery with half a dozen friends and strangers, walk alone 20 blocks or so to a crowded, smoky bar, down a few, and eventually walk the five miles home — all without ever getting the slightest bit tuckered out. And after all tha,t I'd wake up at six, turn on Stern, and start writing. (Tolstoy, I wager, would've found the sound of Howard's voice very helpful in getting the day's work off the ground.)

Alas, during my most recent New York visit, a year or two before COVID, I felt I was moving among ghosts. The Carnegie Deli was gone. The New Criterion had relocated its offices. My favorite Greenwich Village bar had closed: it was there that I'd first seen Madonna, not in person but on a boob tube tuned to her then brand-new, career-making "Material Girl" video on, I guess, MTV. The bar, I learned, had reopened in Midtown. I dropped in. It was now a piano bar. Between sets, I struck up a conversation with the pianist, who was terrific. I mentioned another gifted piano man, who back in the day had worked at Brandy's. It turned out they'd been friends, and the Brandy's guy had just died. My new acquaintance told me the whole sad story.

On that visit, I walked through Union Square. I thought of my friend Tom Disch, the brilliant poet and science fiction writer, whom I'd met in February 1985 at a dinner with mutual friends. (When told that I was the one who'd taken down Allen Ginsberg in that month's New Criterion, his face lit up with joy.) He lived on Union Square for decades, and on the Fourth of July 2008, alone in his apartment, he'd put a gun in his mouth and blown his brains out.

I also made my way up to my old neighborhood in the East 80s. It looked largely the same. But when, out of curiosity, I checked out the rents online, they were astronomical.

Even now, when so many people are fleeing the Big Apple, the prices remain prohibitive. Do the trust-fund brats arriving every year from around the country, equipped with brand-new Ivy League sheepskins, think today's socialist dystopia is the New York of story and song? Or is New York, like Harvard or Yale, just a brand name to them, a place where they can kick-start their careers, a potential line on their CV?

One person was still alive and kicking during my last visit: my old friend Terry Teachout, who'd worked his way up to being drama critic for the Wall Street Journal. In many ways, Terry was New York — a Missouri boy who'd been drawn to the city by its magic, who become a key figure on the cultural scene, who ended up (it seemed) being friends with absolutely everybody, and who, immune to the cynicism that eventually infected almost everybody else in town, leapt into his work every morning with youthful exuberance. (Unlike me and Tolstoy, Terry worked best in a tiny, windowless room with no distractions whatsoever.)

On Jan. 4 of last year, sitting on my couch in my sleepy little town in Norway, I exchanged Facebook messages with Terry, who, he'd recently written, was looking forward to discovering what the year 2022 held in store for him. Nine days later, sitting on the same couch, I glanced over at my computer screen, which had just refreshed, to see, on the Instapundit website, the words RIP: TERRY TEACHOUT.

I'll never get over that particular shock.

I was never a regular at the Duplex, where Dave Frishberg played piano. But I did frequent a piano bar right across the street, where I was one of those half-sloshed patrons sitting around the piano until way after midnight, singing the old songs. I think I've been there every time I've returned to New York, and it's one place that always does make me feel, a little bit anyway, as if I never left. The pianists change, but the songs remain the same: "On the Street Where You Live," "I Won't Send Roses," "Send in the Clowns." Plus a thousand others. And don't forget that inevitable piano-bar tune:


Start spreading the news
I'm leaving today
I want to be a part of it
New York, New York…


Well, I was a part of it. Still am, I guess. But as Heraclitus quipped, you can't step into the same river twice. Or, as Tom Wolfe put it, you can't go home again. Maybe before my next visit to New York I'll tease out one of those lines into a lyric, set it to a catchy tune, and sing it at that piano bar. If I tip enough beforehand, I'm sure they'll be good about it. Maybe, if I can track her down, I can even persuade Natalie to give it a try.


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Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Vic Eldred    last year

Interesting to hear it from a former New Yorker.

I never lived there, but I'm sure it will NEVER be what it once was.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    last year
but I'm sure it will NEVER be what it once was.

What is? 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.1.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @1.1    last year

The city of New York

Just like the city of Chicago

or the city of LA

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Expert
1.1.2  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.1.1    last year

NY is nothing like Chicago or LA.

 
 
 
Hallux
Professor Principal
1.1.3  Hallux  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1.1.2    last year

I can vouch for that.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
1.1.4  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.1.1    last year

I've taken my family multiple times to NYC and twice to Chicago for vacations.  We all like the theatre, museums, restaurants and other sights in both cities.  I have never taken a car, stayed down town and used Uber, Taxi, walking and subways to travel.  We've never felt unsafe in either town.  If you are white and stay out of the few really dangerous neighborhoods, it's not very risky.  It's very different for young, black men living in those dangerous neighborhoods.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
1.1.5  Gsquared  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.1.1    last year
the city of LA

You've never been to Los Angeles.  Your words carry no weight whatsoever.  You have no idea what you're talking about, but that never seems to stop you.  

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.1.6  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1.1.2    last year

That' the best defense of NY I've ever heard.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.1.7  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.1.4    last year

I expected you would understand. Some here took the words that I used to visit New York as my only interest. Suppose you had to live there? Suppose you lived in an area dominated street gangs. They have prosecutors who don't want to prosecute people. Think of that.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.1.8  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gsquared @1.1.5    last year
You've never been to Los Angeles. 

No thank you.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.9  Tessylo  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.1.4    last year

I've been many times with my best friends to NYC and Chicago as well for vacations and we never had one single problem either.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
1.1.10  Gsquared  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.1.8    last year

It's really nice in Los Angeles.  You can find anything, and someone, from almost anywhere in the world in Los Angeles.  It's a vibrant, eclectic, diverse culture with beautiful natural surroundings.  You would hate it.

Moscow would be more to your liking so you could mingle with your ideological soulmates.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.11  Tessylo  replied to  Gsquared @1.1.10    last year

jrSmiley_91_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
1.1.12  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @1.1.9    last year

How about that, there are some things we have in common.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
1.1.13  Sean Treacy  replied to  Gsquared @1.1.10    last year

It’s so great people are fleeing in record numbers. Almost 300,000 fewer people in 2 years.

 Might have to go the East German route and build a wall to force people to enjoy “paradise”

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Participates
1.1.14  pat wilson  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.1.13    last year
Almost 300,000 fewer people in 2 years.

Less than 1% of the population in Ca.

"Record numbers" lol.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
1.1.15  Gsquared  replied to  pat wilson @1.1.14    last year

Ridiculous, isn't it, Pat.  California has such a huge population that a few people moving back to their home states means nothing.  On top of that, more than 125,715 new residents moved to California in the last year.  I've also been reading about Californians who moved to other states and are now planning to move back home as soon as possible.   Of course, we can always count on a few reactionary propagandists, squatting in their miserable hovels in some dismal location, to spew meaningless drivel.  

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.1.16  Texan1211  replied to  pat wilson @1.1.14    last year

Well, California did lose residents between 2010 and 2020.

That is indisputable, as the state lost a Congressional seat.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
1.1.17  Sean Treacy  replied to  pat wilson @1.1.14    last year
Less than 1% of the population in Ca.

That's  from one county, Los Angeles.

And yes, if that trend continues, its a massive deal. Revenue matters to a state losing billions a year.  I think that would be obvious. 

Its not too late for California to learn from successful states like Florida and Texas that actually attract Americans. 

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Participates
1.1.18  pat wilson  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.1.17    last year
Its not too late for California to learn from successful states like Florida and Texas

If California were a nation it would have the 6th largest economy in the world. What do you think Florida or Texas could teach California ?

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
1.1.19  Gsquared  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.1.13    last year
Might have to go the East German route and build a wall to force people to enjoy "paradise"

That's hilarious considering the number of red states, starting with Idaho, that are attempting, or planning, to criminalize interstate travel for people seeking medical care.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
1.1.20  Gsquared  replied to  pat wilson @1.1.18    last year

Florida could teach a lot about banning books and right wing cancel culture.  

Texas is a model for how not to have a functioning power system in the event of a natural disaster.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
1.1.21  Sean Treacy  replied to  pat wilson @1.1.18    last year
What do you think Florida or Texas could teach California ?

How to not repel its own citizens and attract other Americans. How to a balance a budget. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
1.1.22  Sean Treacy  replied to  Gsquared @1.1.19    last year
th Idaho, that are attempting, or planning, to criminalize interstate travel for people seeking medical care.

So put you down for supporting the kidnapping of kids and taking them across state lines without parental consent. 

Most states do.  Is that what you think the Berlin Wall was for, to prevent kidnapping? Sad. 

Does California allow adults to take across state lines without parental consent. Is that the next "civil right" the left wants to fight about? Kidnapping kids? 

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
1.1.23  Gsquared  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.1.22    last year

So, put you down for supporting  minors being raped and impregnated by their fathers, and being prevented from having abortions.  Monstrous.

Is that the next "parental right" reactionaries want to fight for?  Rape and incest?

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
1.1.24  Sean Treacy  replied to  Gsquared @1.1.23    last year
porting  minors being raped and impregnated by their fathers and being prevented from having abortions.

Have you ever read a law?  Abortion is already  legal in the case of incest in Idaho. 

But keep defending kidnapping children. 

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
1.1.25  Gsquared  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.1.24    last year

Do you ever understand anything you read?  There are conditions imposed by the Idaho law that may not have been satisfied by the minor or her parents, or the physician might not have fully complied with the requirement in the applicable subsection, which would render the abortion illegal.

But keep defending rape and incest.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
1.1.26  Sean Treacy  replied to  Gsquared @1.1.25    last year
  T, which would render the abortion illegal.

Read it again, abortion is legal in the case of incest  in Idaho.   Kidnapping isn't, despite your wishes.  

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
1.1.27  Gsquared  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.1.26    last year

You read it again.  You obviously do not understand it.  Although, it's likely you could never understand it no matter how many times you tried to read it.

Your support for rape and incest remains monstrous 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
1.1.28  Sean Treacy  replied to  Gsquared @1.1.27    last year
You obviously do not understand it.

Lol. We both know you aren't winning a battle of  reading comprehension .

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
1.1.29  Gsquared  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.1.28    last year

We both know you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.  It's not a surprise that you would link something and claim it says what it doesn't say.  It's not my problem if you can't comprehend the statute.  Another epic fail by you. 

Now, run along and play with your friends.  Maybe they will pretend like you know something... anything.  And have a really great day!

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
1.1.30  Sean Treacy  replied to  Gsquared @1.1.29    last year
s not my problem if you can't comprehend the statute

I've led you to water, don't blame me if you don't know how to drink it. 

Another epic fail by you.

I'm just happy that you managed to go two posts without misusing the words fascist or reactionary.  Progress!

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
1.1.31  Gsquared  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.1.30    last year

I know it's embarrassing for you to post a link that you don't comprehend, and then claim it says something it doesn't say.  You'll just have to try harder next time, won't you?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.32  Tessylo  replied to  Gsquared @1.1.31    last year

jrSmiley_91_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.2  Ozzwald  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    last year
I'm sure it will NEVER be what it once was.

There is no location in the world where that sentence also would not be true.  Every city, town, and community has changed over the last 25 years, and none of them will ever be what they once were.  It's called PROGRESS.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Ozzwald @1.2    last year
It's called PROGRESS.

Nope. It is called CHANGE.  Only change for the better gets to be called PROGRESS.  That is not the case for America's largest cities.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.2.2  JohnRussell  replied to  Ozzwald @1.2    last year

The seeded article doesnt say a word about New York changing for the worse. All it is is a recital of reminiscences by the author. 

I dont think the article is intended to convey the meaning that Vic thinks it does. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
1.2.3  Sean Treacy  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.1    last year
Only change for the better gets to be called PROGRESS.  T

Imagine thinking cities like San Francisco, that are so lawless that Whole Foods can't operate there, have progressed in the last 25 years. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.4  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.2.3    last year

That is the way they were taught at college. Mom & dad paid for that.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.5  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @1.2.2    last year
I dont think the article is intended to convey the meaning that Vic thinks it does. 

Stop the shit John. Vic didn't portray the article one way or the other. New York just like fucking Chicago has gone downhil and PROGRESSIVES had a lot to do with that, didn't they?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.2.6  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.5    last year
Interesting to hear it from a former New Yorker.I never lived there, but I'm sure it will NEVER be what it once was.

Those are your first words on the seed, and you think you didnt portray the article a particular way? lol. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.7  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @1.2.6    last year

You are digging a hole for yourself, but do keep at it.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Expert
1.2.8  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.1    last year

NYC is a wonderful city and a destination for the world. You can't make blanket statements like that.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.2.9  Ozzwald  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.1    last year
Nope. It is called CHANGE.  .

Whether the progress is for the better or not is purely to the individual's personal beliefs.  Progress is simply moving from point a to point b, does not speak to better or worse.

Only change for the better gets to be called PROGRESS

Which explains why we're called "progressives".

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.2.10  Ozzwald  replied to  JohnRussell @1.2.2    last year
The seeded article doesnt say a word about New York changing for the worse.

Doesn't have to.  No mater the change, some will think it for the better and some will think it for the worse.

I dont think the article is intended to convey the meaning that Vic thinks it does.

Very very little is meant to mean what Vic thinks it does.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.11  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1.2.8    last year
You can't make blanket statements like that.

Sure I can. Crime has risen in New York and it was not by accident. The city defunded it's Police Department and elected Soros funded DA's who vowed not to prosecute certain crimes. Two of them ran on going after a single human being. Do you remember when you thought it was great for NYPD officers to be doused with water and not be able to do a thing about it?   

The city's past few elections were dominated by the issue of crime.

Are we all going to pretend that what has gone on since 2020 hasn't?

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.2.12  Ozzwald  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.11    last year
Sure I can. Crime has risen in New York and it was not by accident.

010416-overallcrimenew.jpg

nyc-murders-bar-chart.jpg

-1x-1.png

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.13  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Ozzwald @1.2.12    last year

Post 2.1.11

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.2.14  Ozzwald  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.13    last year

Post 2.1.11

Are you unable to see the first graph posted?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.2.15  Tessylo  replied to  Ozzwald @1.2    last year

Some prefer to live in the past.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.2.16  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.5    last year

Why are referring to yourself in the third person?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.2.17  JohnRussell  replied to  Ozzwald @1.2.12    last year

I think the entire concept of murder rates, and crime rates, is somewhat flawed.

-1x-1.png

These are recent homicide rates. Philadelphia is at the top with what looks around 35 murders per 100,000 population. New York is at the bottom with 5 . 

One could say Philadelphia is 7 times more prone to murder than NY, but that would be misleading.  Let's look at the same thing, but instead of 100,000 lets consider a population in Philadelphia of 10,000. That lowers the murder rate in Philadelphia to 3.5 (per 10,000 pop) and NY to .5.  Doesnt seem as quite the huge difference it did before , does it?  If we lower the per number down to 1,000,  Philadelphia has 0.35 murders per 1000 and NY has .05.  Notice that both numbers , both cities, have less than one murder (for this year) per 1000 people. 

While it is fun for some to overdramatize such statistics, I dont think they mean all that much. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
1.2.18  Sean Treacy  replied to  JohnRussell @1.2.17    last year
ne could say Philadelphia is 7 times more prone to murder than NY, but that would be misleading.

How is that misleading? 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.2.19  JohnRussell  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.2.18    last year

The difference between 35 and 5 isnt as great as people think it is. Not when you're talking about a base of 100,000 people. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
1.2.20  Sean Treacy  replied to  JohnRussell @1.2.19    last year

It’s 7 times as much.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.2.21  JohnRussell  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.2.20    last year

Lets put it like this in New York  %0.99995 of the people, per 100,000, will not be murdered.

In Philadelphia %0.99965 will not be murdered. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.2.22  JohnRussell  replied to  JohnRussell @1.2.21    last year

In both cities there is a 99.9% chance you wont be murdered. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
1.2.23  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JohnRussell @1.2.17    last year
While it is fun for some to overdramatize such statistics, I dont think they mean all that much. 

Exactly, this perspective is rarely raised when the topic is gun control.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Participates
1.3  Thrawn 31  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    last year

Don't travel like an idiot and you will be fine. I've been to New York on multiple occasions and had a great time. Everyone was nice and helpful enough, the sights were pretty damn cool, and didn't have any trouble outside of Manhattan in the Bronx, Queens, or Brooklyn. Honestly, in every bar I went to I was a curiosity being from a sate in the SW, no lack of conversation.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.3.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Thrawn 31 @1.3    last year
Don't travel

It's not about me traveling.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2  JohnRussell    last year

Well, I read the article.

Its horrible. I lost count of how many times the writer uses the word "I".  The article is a blur of geographical references that mean a lot to him, which I guess is why we get all the "I's", but conveys very little, almost nothing, of what he thinks New York has lost, other than New York has lost his adventures and meanderings there. 

Who the hell cares? 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @2    last year
Who the hell cares? 

Certainly anyone who goes out and interacts with other human beings.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1    last year

Vic, I read the article. It is not about New York going downhill, as much as you want it to be. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.2  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.1    last year
It is not about New York going downhill

It can't be. You see Bruce Bawer would have to return and note the changes first. 

I'm giving you my opinion based on my many trips there since I was in my 20's.


I had once hoped that John Howard Griffin would put on the black die once more and go out and note the changes from his original book. That would be positive change, AKA PROGRESS.


 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.3  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.2    last year
I'm giving you my opinion based on my many trips there since I was in my 20's.

I guess you should have wrote the article then. The article you seeded does not make that argument. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.4  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.3    last year
The article you seeded does not make that argument.

The article is Bawer's. I added my opinion. You can't separate the two?

I think I'm beginning to see your problem.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.5  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.4    last year

You want the world to back to the 1950's, prior to any widespread social change. Thats likely your problem more than it is the rest of the worlds problem. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.6  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.5    last year

For one thing I WANT LAW & ORDER and I DON'T WANT PRISONS EMPTIED BECAUSE THERE ARE MINORITY INMATES IN THEM.

Can you understand that?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
2.1.7  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.5    last year

You want the world to back to the 1950's, prior to any widespread social change. 

 America has had continual social change to include both sides of the 20th Century:

  • Movement of the farm starting prior to WWI and acceleration during the Depression, WWII 
  • Corresponding rise of blue collar workers with great acceleration following WWII
  • The rise of knowledge workers beginning in the 60's
  • Woman in the workplace started in WWII
  • Expanding Civil Rights starting in the 50's
  • Continued growth in the size and power of the Federal government starting with the Great Depression and two World Wars.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Expert
2.1.8  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.6    last year

Vic,

NYC is the safest city in the US. The stats show that.

MURDER

The city recorded 488 murders in 2021, a 4% increase from 468 in 2020, which in turn was up 47% from 319 in 2019, and 295 homicides in 2018 after falling to a low of 292 in 2017 following a steady decline since the early 1990s. The number of murders in 2010 was 536, in 2000 was 673, and in 1990 was 2,262.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.9  JohnRussell  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2.1.8    last year

Vic thinks people of color and liberals are destroying the American way of life. New York has a lot of people of color and a lot of liberals ... and... voila!. 

Vic wants to live in the past. Its pretty much that simple. 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Participates
2.1.10  Thrawn 31  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.6    last year

Statistically New York is one of the safest places you can be. Everytime I have been there NYPD was all over. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.11  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2.1.8    last year

We don't judge the crime rates via the murder category. That is usually a personal matter.

"Rapes climbed 7% (1,591 from 1,481); felony assaults rose 13% (25,596 from 22,738), and robberies (17,138 from 13,592) spiked 26%, the data show.

Burglars and thieves had a field day, with burglary ballooning 23% (15,481 from 12,568); grand larceny surging 26% (50,698 from 40,166); and car theft soaring 32% (13,475 from 10,2190), according to the stats from Jan. 1 through Dec. 25.

The tally for total major crimes topped 100,000 for the second consecutive year. Overall, major crimes were up 23% (124,397 from 101,245 in 2021), the NYPD stats say."

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.12  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.9    last year
Vic thinks people of color and liberals are destroying the American way of life.

Don't ever speak for Vic. I'm sure that many of the minorities who have to live in NYC or Chicago agree with me.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.13  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Thrawn 31 @2.1.10    last year
Everytime I have been there NYPD was all over.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
2.1.14  Ozzwald  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.11    last year
We don't judge the crime rates via the murder category.

010416-overallcrimenew.jpg

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Expert
2.1.15  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.11    last year

Vic,

You seem to have missed my point totally. The crime rate overall is down from the good old days. Yes, they are up since the pandemic, but overall they are trending down. The Post is always doom and gloom. My daughter lives in Spanish Harlem, and she parks her car on the street and walks the streets, and does not worry.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Expert
2.1.16  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.13    last year

That is yesterday's news.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.17  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.12    last year

Why do you refer to yourself in the third person?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.18  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.13    last year

How many years ago did that happen?

jrSmiley_80_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.19  JohnRussell  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2.1.15    last year
The crime rate overall is down from the good old days.

Vic's good old days are the 1950's. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.20  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2.1.16    last year
That is yesterday's news.

And here is today's:

FtiTtAzWAAgZ6Vs?format=jpg&name=small

 
 
 
Hallux
Professor Principal
3  Hallux    last year

Bar prices are way too high but when it comes to the stuff I really like, the bookstores and art galleries, I would return in a flash. Hell, even the street buskers are worth the trip ... and if they learned to make a real bagel, I'd book this afternoon or if the god's of temperate weather be so inclined, indulge in a day's worth of chess at Washington Square Park. 

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
4  Jeremy Retired in NC    last year
The former New Yorker, of course, is a familiar breed. One of us, a jazzman named Dave Frishberg, played piano at the Duplex, a Greenwich Village bar, in the '60s, then moved to Los Angeles, where, after finding a degree of fame, he wrote a witty, wistful  tune  about the topic

There's a "New York Hardcore" band called Agnostic Front that has a kind of updated view (from theirs naturally).  

New York City the money sucked it dry
Pull the culture from out the streets it's all so gentrified
Alphabet City or down on Forty Second Street
Or the Lower East Side there was violence in the streets
The greatest city of them all but it just don't feel the same
I miss the old New York the tallest buildings in the world
But it just don't look the same I miss the old New York
The Bowery slums turned into fashion boutiques
Where's all the gangs drug dealers and the freaks
The Big Apple has lost its taste
Ten million people trying just to survive
This fucking urban waste
The greatest city of them all but it just don't feel the same
I miss the old New York the tallest buildings in the world
But it just don't look the same, I miss the old New York
The old graffiti trains can't see out the window
Gotta watch your back or you might get jacked
The greatest city of them all but it just don't feel the same
I miss the old New York the tallest buildings in the world
But it just don't look the same, I miss the old New York
Old New York, old New York
 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
4.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @4    last year

I'll give it an 85, it's got a good beat and you can dance to it. 

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
4.1.1  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1    last year

They put on one hell of a show.  Although, it's not for the casual spectator.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.2  JohnRussell  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @4    last year

Am I imagining things, or are they lamenting the loss of violence ?

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
4.2.1  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  JohnRussell @4.2    last year

If that's what you see.  I don't.  Interpretation of music is really on what the listener hears.  One song you may hear a call for violence, I may hear them calling for people to come together.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
5  Drinker of the Wry    last year

I first went to NYC in 1975 as a college kid, it was a different city then:

The opening lyric in the Old New York song, is a line in Taxi Driver:

"All the animals come out at night: whores, skunk pussies, buggers, queens, fairies, dopers, junkies, sick, venal. Someday a real rain will come and wash all this scum off the streets."

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Participates
5.1  Thrawn 31  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5    last year

Times Square has changed lol. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Expert
5.1.1  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Thrawn 31 @5.1    last year
Times Square has changed lol. 

In fact, it has. There are no cars allowed there because of the big plaza set up for people to enjoy.

512

I'm really tired of this uninformed attack on NYC.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
5.1.2  Tessylo  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @5.1.1    last year

All some seem to have is 'uninformed attacks'

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
5.2  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5    last year

Think about what a NYC cab driver must see during his 12 hour shift.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Expert
5.3  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5    last year

In 1975 the city was a toilet. I would be the first to say it. 

I got to say, I find it beyond annoying that people who have never been to NYC or been there recently are judging it. 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Participates
5.3.1  Thrawn 31  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @5.3    last year

Been to NYC 3 times since 2009 and loved it.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
5.3.2  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @5.3    last year

You would know better than I. If you say that it is still a great city, I'll concede on this one.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
6  Drinker of the Wry    last year

Hey yous guys.  My family and I have enjoyed all of are many trips to NYC.  I even enjoyed my first one in 1975, of course I was a somewhat wild college kid then.  My wife has also had several girlfriend trips there.  We've mostly stayed in Manhattan, but never the same neighborhood twice,  We've also stayed in Brooklyn twice.  We also varied the seasons while always avoiding midsummer.  

 
 

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