Martin Gugino: Protestor 75, knocked down by Buffalo police last June 'a little surprised' at grand jury's dismissal of charges

The function of the police is to protect the public.

Right?

Cops gave him a gentle shove.

The old liberal fool shouldn't have been getting in their faces.

Class, Greg.

Real class...

While I don't condone what the police did, the man was told to move along. He ignored the police warning and insisted on approaching and attempting to engage the officers verbally when told not to. Tensions were high to begin with. By ignoring the officers warnings he is partly to blame for what happened to him when he should have just moved along.

Fred Clark :

It’s not really surprising that the two cops weren’t indicted for the assault charges the grand jury was allegedly asked to consider. But it is disgusting that Buffalo’s grand jury wasn’t asked to consider any charges having to do with the fact that badge-disgracing bullies Torgalski and McCabe — and more than a dozen other police officers —   just walked away ,   leaving a 75-year-old man lying on the concrete, bleeding profusely from a skull fracture.

I appreciate that the statutory definition of “depraved indifference” may not include refusing to respond to a bleeding, unconscious senior citizen on a public sidewalk, but the indifference displayed by these “police officers” meets every non-statutory definition of “depraved.”

It seems that Buffalo is a place where it is not the job of police officers to do anything about an unconscious old man bleeding on the sidewalk. It is officially a place where the court system neither seeks nor finds any reason to criticize them for doing nothing in that situation.

So what does this mean for the citizens of Buffalo? What should you do if you come across an old man bleeding on the sidewalk? You might think you should call 9-1-1, but obviously that’s wrong. Calling 9-1-1 would only summon the police and the Buffalo police, their police union, and the courts of the city have just made it very, very clear that Buffalo police are not of any help in such a situation and that no city officials expect or require them to be of any help in such a situation.

I'll admit to being a little surprised by that. My first thought was the old saying that a good prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich in a grand jury.  Using that rule of thumb one could expect that a good prosecutor could also acquit someone in a grand jury.

My second thought was for it to be felony assault in the second degree, they have to prove you have the intent to cause serious physical injury to someone and actually cause serious physical to that person or another person, It's rather difficult to prove intent,  did they over-charge?

Any way it goes, I think this is a horrible outcome. 

this is a horrible outcome

Everyone loses.

I guess the grand jury must have thought he brought this on himself.

I don't understand why this even went to a grand jury. I don't see where the police did anything wrong. I'm sad the guy got hurt but the responsibility for it rests with him, not the police. It would not have happened if only he'd obeyed the lawful orders of the police. 

Agreed. However, I do believe the morally correct thing to do would have been to tend to the guy once he fell. The fact that so many officers could just walk by a man bleeding from the head on the sidewalk kind of breaks my heart. I know one guy started to stop and help him, but you would have to drag me away. Fire me if you must, but I’m not going to let a man bleed out from the head. I know he’s ok now, but they didn’t know he would be at the time.

This kind of heartlessness is a big reason why so many people hate cops right now.

I don't understand why this even went to a grand jury. 

Possibly because one old man was badly injured by a bunch of young men.

Did you watch the video? Did you notice that the cops whom Gugino accosted stayed calm? Did you see that a cop came hurrying up from further back in the pack, and without slowing transferred his momentum to Gugino who went stumblingly back and down?

Do you say that that cop's actions were necessary and appropriate?

This kind of heartlessness is a big reason why so many people hate cops right now.

Exactly.

Did you watch the video?

Yes, I watched it. I saw nothing that warranted any investigation, let alone a grand jury investigation.

Do you say that that cop's actions were necessary and appropriate?

Yes, I do. 

However, I do believe the morally correct thing to do would have been to tend to the guy once he fell. The fact that so many officers could just walk by a man bleeding from the head on the sidewalk kind of breaks my heart.

Well, in my opinion, it was just bad optics. That is to say that It just looked bad but wasn't. If you look at the video again, there really wasn't a thing the cops could do for the guy other than what they did. It appears to me that the cop that stopped the other cop from attending the fallen man at the beginning made a call on the radio, most likely to summon medical responders. Other than that, what could anyone actually do to render any sort of aid to they guy? Had you been there, what would you have done? I can't think of a single thing I could do, other than to summon medical responders. 

In the mean time, the rest of the police line was still advancing. The cop at the beginning had to keep his end of the line moving in order to support the other cops further down the line laterally and leave the fallen man to someone further in back of the police line. The mission was still in progress and his first duty was to support it. The man on the ground didn't change that. And as it turns out in the video, people in the rear of the police line do attend to the man, sort of. I mean, they attended the man but that was about it,  since there literally wasn't anything for them to do until a medical team arrived. At least, not anything I can think of.

Fire me if you must, but I’m not going to let a man bleed out from the head.

Well, the only blood I saw was coming from his ear. and it didn't seem to be that much. What do you think you could have done about it had you been there? I understand the desire to help but what help could you have given? It isn't as if they guy had a headwound to the scalp, where one could at least dress it with something and apply pressure to slow the bleeding. 

The facts that mattered to me was 

1. The man was violating a lawfully enacted curfew.
2. The man advanced on advancing police officers rather than obey the police commands, putting himself in the situation unnecessarily. 
3. Only a propagandist would claim that excessive force was used on the man. I can see the video as clearly as anyone and it wasn't all that hard of a shove and certainly wasn't the intent of the police to cause the man harm. 
4. It is normal and reasonable behavior for an advancing police line to shove people back and away from the advancing line. That is, in fact, the purpose of the advance.

There is nothing I see to blame the police for. I'm happy the grand jury turned out the way it did. I'm sorry the old man was hurt but the blame rests entirely on him and no other. 

Had you been there, what would you have done?

Pressure on the wound? Give him something soft to put his head on? (like a shirt or a bag. obviously not a pillow) Ask him if he was ok? Act like I cared?

I read somewhere the guy had a skull fracture.

Legally, the cops were in the right, I think. But that doesn't make it right, if you see what I mean. Maybe we need to change the way they do some things. Maybe a more controlled kind of shove so he doesn't bash his head on the pavement. I don't know what that will look like, but it's worth thinking about. Maybe just grab him instead. Maybe arrest him. Legally, he was clearly guilty of interfering with a police officer, so they certainly had probable cause.

I just think it should be the desire of every cop to hurt people as little as absolutely necessary. I think policing, in general, should be as creative as it can be to achieve that goal. But it will never happen if it doesn't become a priority.

But that doesn't make it right, if you see what I mean.

Not really. I think it was unfortunate the guy got hurt but that's about it. 

Maybe we need to change the way they do some things. Maybe a more controlled kind of shove so he doesn't bash his head on the pavement. I don't know what that will look like, but it's worth thinking about. I just think it should be the desire of every cop to hurt people as little as absolutely necessary. I think policing, in general, should be as creative as it can be to achieve that goal. But it will never happen if it doesn't become a priority.

Why is it always on the police to make the change? To "be better?" At what point are people accountable for their own actions? Why isn't it on people to simply obey the lawfully given orders of the police? I mean, don't you think people have at least some responsibility? Why isn't there an obligation for people to improve their own act when confronted by police? Why is it all on the cops? 

Personally, I think most police already try to do as little harm as possible and tread as lightly as they can but people think they have rights they don't actually have. They have to get loud and assert themselves. More often than not it's the civilian that is escalating things, not the cop. And then you've got the bystanders that have to make things even worse by sticking their noses into it.