James Fallows: A Disgusting Night for Democracy
By: James Fallows (The Atlantic)
That's not the debate I saw. There were heated exchanges between Wallace and Trump. Wallace was an active participant in the debate; delivering a monologue before tossing softballs to both candidates.
Look, everyone should know that Joe Biden was supposed to deliver the bumper sticker talking points that the media has been ginning up for weeks. Biden didn't plan on talking about a Biden Presidency; Biden's strategy was to talk about Trump. The centerpiece of Joe Biden's campaign has been that he ain't Trump. Biden has been running on a narrative of Trump's failings. Biden's only allusion to policy has been that he has a plan somewhere that appeals to technocratic believers in the rule-based international neo-liberal order. Joe Biden has planned all along to restored the international neo-liberal world order; Biden hasn't planned on being a domestic President.
Trump had to blunt Joe Biden's delivery of media talking points. Trump succeeded. Joe Biden's campaign has been transformed from 'Biden ain't Trump' to 'Biden ain't different than Trump'.
Now everyone is wringing their hands and rending their clothes over Trump's demeanor. Mario Cuomo, Andrew Cuomo, Bill de Blasio, Ed Koch, Rudi Giuliani have all exhibited the same behavior in the political arena. Reportedly Fiorello La Guardia, Franklin Roosevelt, and Theodore Roosevelt depended upon that same use of aggressive diatribes and rhetoric to make political points. Even AOC exhibits the same type of aggressive demeanor in the political arena. Trump is a New Yorker, so Trump's demeanor and debating style shouldn't be surprising.
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
The 90-minute spectacle tonight calls into question the value of having any "debates" of this sort ever again. No one knows more about public life than he or she did before this disaster began; some people know less; and everyone feels and looks worse.
Start with the supposed moderator, Chris Wallace. It became obvious five minutes in that Donald Trump's strategy was to interrupt, yell, insult, and disrupt as often as he could. This is a strategy that can work only if no one gets in the way of it, and Chris Wallace just let it go on. Maybe Wallace was caught by surprise by Trump's bellicosity and primate-dominance. (But—c'mon.) Even so, two or three minutes of this should have been enough to adjust. He didn't adjust. And he let Trump roll over him.
Maybe—I don't know—the negotiated debate rules prevented Wallace from selectively cutting off the speakers' mics. Even so, there are ways for the people supposedly in charge of an event to demonstrate that in fact they are in charge. Wallace made clear early on that he was not.
Trump's instincts are taken from pro wrestling, as with his famous stunt of shaving Vince McMahon's head. Thus Trump was unconstrained by norms or unenforced rules; Wallace did not enforce the rules, and the result, as it would be in a brawl or an unrefereed sporting match, was one person unconstrained by any of the norms of "allotted time" or "take your turn" or "respectful disagreement," and another who was half the time constrained by those expectations, and the other half taking the bait in some way.
I recorded a whole detailed minute-by-minute annotation of the debate as it unfolded, but I'm not going to dignify this disaster with any details. It was a giant mess. Did the spectacle change any votes? Who knows. Maybe some people were revved up for Trump by his assertiveness. Maybe other people—I'd guess a larger number, but it's just a guess—were repelled by his bullying tactics.
Was Biden correctly playing the long game, by turning all topics from Trump's favored terrain (It's about me) to Biden's theme (It's about you) and addressing the camera rather than Wallace or Trump?
Will either side's strategy pay off ? I can't say. And—just for this second—I don't care. I'll think about that tomorrow.
But for tonight I'll say this was a disgusting moment for democracy. Donald Trump made it so, and Chris Wallace let him. I hope there are no more debates before this election. If they happen, I won't waste another minute of my life watching them.
The modern presidential debate was invented in 1960. We may have seen the end of its useful life this evening.
Tags
Who is online
106 visitors
Joe Biden won't change his centerpiece selling point to 'Joe Biden ain't different than Trump'. But that's what came out of the debate.
This is all completely ridiculous, and qualifies as gaslighting.
I'm surprised you can keep a straight face. Then again, since you are behind a screen, maybe you aren't keeping a straight face.
Donald Trump is the epitome of a New York politician. Donald Trump behaves like a New Yorker.
Joe Biden is obviously not a New York politician. But that was Biden's strategy going into the debate. It shouldn't be surprising that Biden couldn't pull it off.
Show us a video of Andrew Cuomo or Mario Cuomo or Bill deBlasio or Ed Koch interrupting their opponent 50 times during a debate.
Trump isnt a New Yorker, he's an asshole. They can happen in any city.
Except, Trump is loathed by most New Yorkers!
What you do not know is not my problem.
And I'm accused of gaslighting?
Joe Biden's objective was to deliver the talking points the media has been ginning up over the last several weeks. Trump did not allow Biden to deliver those canned talking points.
It's obvious Biden wasn't prepared to sell his policies, Biden's strategy to was to draw a contrast between himself and Trump. The centerpiece of the Biden campaign during the primaries and now during the general election has been 'Joe Biden ain't Trump'.
What came out of the debate is 'Joe Biden ain't different than Trump'. Biden chose to go toe-to-toe with a New York politician and couldn't pull it off.
For months Biden has created an expectation that he could bring Trump to heel; Biden was tough enough to confront Trump and beat him with rational policy arguments, fact checking, and sincere honesty. Instead Biden tried to out-Trump Trump with canned talking points and ginned up media scandals.
Joe Biden failed to deliver on the expectations he created. 'Joe Biden ain't different than Trump'.
Another bizarre comparison. Biden should be proud he isnt like Trump, so of course he wants to emphasize that contrast. Trump is not fit for office, he showed that without a shadow of a doubt last night.
If you say that Trump is no different than Andrew Cuomo in a debate, show us the video proof. It is a simple request.
Even when Trump supported Democrats with political donations? The Clintons seemed fairly chummy with Trump before Trump entered politics. I wonder what would have happened if Trump had won the White House as a Democrat?
Did Mayor Rudi Giuliani or Mayor Michal Bloomberg try to stop the construction of Trump Tower? What about Trump International Hotel, Trump Palace, Trump Parc & Parc East, Trump Park Avenue, Trump Place, Trump World Tower, and a number of other property developments in New York?
Gubernatorial debate 2018:
Cuomo, Molinaro exchange barbs in a raucous gubernatorial debate (link to article)
I don’t see much value in most political debates with career politicians but I really enjoy debates where Trump is a participant. He doesn’t spend all week memorizing statements written by hired hands. He shoots from the hip and rips the phony established to shreds while simultaneously supporting my personal political beliefs. I really had a great time watching the debate last night.
I thought the whole thing was an embarrassment to watch. Neither candidate did well and both said things not true. It was a total dumpster fire. I had to force myself to watch it.
Joe Biden did fine. He responded to Trump's deranged attacks mostly calmly but occasionally gave as good as he got. Biden clearly won this debate.
If you mean by "fine" that he didn't wander too far off topics, then I agree. He did surprisingly well in that regard. Beyond that, he didn't actually say anything meaningful. He didn't say anything substantial. About all he did was say "I'm not Trump".
It wouldn't have been so bad had trump not constantly interrupted and complained about the rules his own campaign agreed to. Biden addressed the American people and while it wasn't much, he did address policy. Trump looked like a spoiled child having a tantrum while spitting out one lie after another. Literally nothing trump said about mail in voting was true. Every statement in that segment was a flat out lie. Then he spit out the buzzwords like, "attempted coup", (an investigation isn't a coup attempt), "Obama spied on my campaign", (also not true). When pressed on trumps healthcare plan that he touted over 4 years ago, trump said, "soon".
Trump didn't show up to debate, he showed up to hurl insults and an avalanche of lies. Not once did trump speak to any policy ideas for the next 4 years, (I mean, other than refusing to denounce white supremacists and telling his personal terrorist organization, Proud Boys, to "stand back and stand by").
Wallace did a poor job of controlling the candidates. Might I suggest...
Well demented disruptive Donald made that starkly obvious last night. There could not have been a bigger difference between two candidates shown. On one hand we had a rational normal human being taking questions and responding, and then we had Donald Trump, practically pissing all over the debate like some out of control relapsed celebrity on a bender.