Pentagon: most Russian forces left Mariupol

  
Via:  Nerm_L  •  2 months ago  •  58 comments

By:   AP NEWS

Pentagon: most Russian forces left Mariupol
The Pentagon says the majority of Russian forces that had been around the port city of Mariupol have left and headed north

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Ukrainians are now in control of Mariupol.  Of course, they're Ukrainian separatists.


S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



WASHINGTON — The Pentagon says the majority of Russian forces that had been around the port city of Mariupol have left and headed north, leaving roughly the equivalent of two battalion tactical groups there, or about 2,000 troops.

Pentagon spokesman John Kirby said Thursday that even as Russian airstrikes continue to bombard Mariupol, Moscow's forces are still making only "plodding" and incremental progress as the main fight presses on in the eastern Donbas region.

He said he has seen no change in Russian behavior or momentum as May 9 draws near.

Russia celebrates Victory Day on May 9, the anniversary of the Soviet Union's defeat of Nazi Germany in World War II. There have been suggestions that Russian President Vladimir Putin wants to tout a major victory in Ukraine when he makes his address during the traditional military parade on Red Square.

Kirby said the U.S. still assesses that Russia is behind schedule and not making the progress in the Donbas that it expected.


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Nerm_L
PhD Principal
1  seeder  Nerm_L    2 months ago

Joe Biden has a nice little proxy war going on.  Biden just needs to provide more weapons so that his Ukrainians and kill Putin's Ukrainians.  Slava Ukrani.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
1.1  JBB  replied to  Nerm_L @1    2 months ago

original

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
1.2  Thrawn 31  replied to  Nerm_L @1    2 months ago

Yes yes mr chamberlain, we all know you position of appeasement. Lol I like how you blame all of this on Biden even though the Russians are the ones who attacked on Putin’s orders.

I am sure you probably blame Poland for the start of WW2 as well.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.2.1  Tessylo  replied to  Thrawn 31 @1.2    2 months ago

It's delusional and hateful

 
 
 
Nerm_L
PhD Principal
1.2.2  seeder  Nerm_L  replied to  Thrawn 31 @1.2    2 months ago
Yes yes mr chamberlain, we all know you position of appeasement. Lol I like how you blame all of this on Biden even though the Russians are the ones who attacked on Putin’s orders. I am sure you probably blame Poland for the start of WW2 as well.

Are you questioning the Pentagon?  It's the US military telling us that Russians have pulled out of Mariupol.  

The Ukrainians now in control of Mariupol have been fighting for eight years.  Biden should know since he was involved when that war began.  Those Ukrainians have returned to Mariupol and likely have scores they want to settle.  Surrender for the Azov regiment may no longer be an option.

Since you are hung up on WW2, Ukraine is more like the NAZIs absorbing Austria than the NAZIs invading Poland.  The comparison to the Polish invasion only works by completely ignoring the last eight years of war in Ukraine.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
1.2.3  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Nerm_L @1.2.2    2 months ago
It's the US military telling us that Russians have pulled out of Mariupol.  

They haven't left the Ukraine.  

Ukraine is more like the NAZIs absorbing Austria than the NAZIs invading Poland. 

Wasn't Canada the first county to recognize Ukrainian independence in 1991?

The comparison to the Polish invasion only works by completely ignoring the last eight years of war in Ukraine.

Russian forces invaded and seized control of the Crimea region in 2014.  That sparked Russian separatists to try to break areas in the East and South out of Ukraine and a civil war began.  By the end of that year 6,500 were dead and over 200,000 were  refugees.  Sporadic fighting continued doubling the number dead and more than one million became refugees.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
1.2.4  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @1.2.1    2 months ago
It's delusional and hateful

I don't agree with Nerm's conclusions but I appreciate that he writes clearly, supports his position with facts and observations and doesn't resort to cheap name calling.  

 
 
 
Nerm_L
PhD Principal
1.2.5  seeder  Nerm_L  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.2.3    2 months ago
Russian forces invaded and seized control of the Crimea region in 2014.  That sparked Russian separatists to try to break areas in the East and South out of Ukraine and a civil war began.  By the end of that year 6,500 were dead and over 200,000 were  refugees.  Sporadic fighting continued doubling the number dead and more than one million became refugees.

How could Russia invade Crimea when Russians were already in Crimea before 2014?  The Ukrainian government wanted Russia in Crimea before 2014 and had made security agreements to keep Russia in Crimea.  The Russian naval and military bases were important to the Crimean economy.

Russia took political control of Crimea away from an unelected government in Kyiv.  But Russia was already in Crimea before that unelected government was installed in Kyiv.

Everyone wants to scapegoat Russia so they can ignore what actually happened in Ukraine.  Yes, Russia isn't a western democracy and there are valid reasons to oppose Russia.  Ignoring that Ukraine is as bad, if not worse, than Russia isn't defending democracy and isn't patriotic.  If we're going to fight a war with Russia then we should fight that war.  But don't get in bed with Ukraine to do it.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.6  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @1.2.5    2 months ago
But don't get in bed with Ukraine to do it.

Ukraine was invaded.

The USA did not partner up with Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia.   The USA, et. al., reacted to a military invasion of Ukraine by Russia;  we did not instigate this war.   We (USA and allies) are helping an invaded nation in its attempt to fight off an invading military which seeks to seize their land, resources and force the people to be under their control.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
PhD Principal
1.2.7  seeder  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.6    2 months ago
Ukraine was invaded. The USA did not partner up with Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia.   The USA, et. al., reacted to a military invasion of Ukraine by Russia;  we did not instigate this war.   We (USA and allies) are helping an invaded nation in its attempt to fight off an invading military which seeks to seize their land, resources and force the people to be under their control.

The United States has been supplying weapons and military supplies to the Kyiv government since 2019 (if not earlier).  Those weapons and military supplies have been used in the Donbas region.

The claim has been that Russia invaded Crimea in 2014 (even though Russia was in Crimea before 2014).  No one has claimed Russia invaded the Donbas in 2014.  Russia has been supplying Ukrainian separatists in the Donbas with weapons and military supplies after the unelected interim Kyiv government sent military forces into Donbas to subdue the Ukrainian separatists.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
1.2.8  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Nerm_L @1.2.5    2 months ago
How could Russia invade Crimea when Russians were already in Crimea before 2014?
The Ukrainian government wanted Russia in Crimea before 2014 and had made security agreements to keep Russia in Crimea. 

Yes, it's likely that Russian agents were there before 2014.  There were also armed men in insignia-less uniforms lacked that took control of the airports in Sevastopol and Simferopol.  Others while wearing masks took the regional parliament flew the Russian flag and declared that the government was dissolved.  

Extending the base lease sparked furious debate in Parliament. 

Russia took political control of Crimea away from an unelected government in Kyiv. 

An interim government as agreed to by Yanukovych before he fled to Russia. 

Ignoring that Ukraine is as bad, if not worse, than Russia isn't defending democracy and isn't patriotic.

I don't think that bad Ukrainian behavior should be ignored.  It's clear the Putin doesn't see Ukraine as a sovereign nation but as an extension of Russia.  

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
1.2.9  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Nerm_L @1.2.7    2 months ago
The United States has been supplying weapons and military supplies to the Kyiv government since 2019 (if not earlier).  Those weapons and military supplies have been used in the Donbas region.

Our military relationship started in 2014 after Russia seized Crimea.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.10  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @1.2.7    2 months ago

Entirely unresponsive to the point I made.

We did not choose to fight a proxy war with Russia.   We, and allies, are reacting to a military invasion of a sovereign nation by providing them resources to fight off those who would steal its land, resources and control its people.

This war was spawned from the irrational ego of Putin.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
PhD Principal
1.2.11  seeder  Nerm_L  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.2.8    2 months ago
Yes, it's likely that Russian agents were there before 2014.  There were also armed men in insignia-less uniforms lacked that took control of the airports in Sevastopol and Simferopol.  Others while wearing masks took the regional parliament flew the Russian flag and declared that the government was dissolved.  

Spetsnaz.  The Russian special forces were under the control of the GRU but that has likely changed.

Extending the base lease sparked furious debate in Parliament. 

The Ukrainian parliament removed the elected President Yanukovych and installed Turchynov as interim President with dictatorial powers.

An interim government as agreed to by Yanukovych before he fled to Russia. 

Why was it necessary for Yanukovych to flee Ukraine?

I don't think that bad Ukrainian behavior should be ignored.  It's clear the Putin doesn't see Ukraine as a sovereign nation but as an extension of Russia. 

Russia agreed with Ukrainian national sovereignty in the 2014 Minsk agreements.  The negotiated Minsk agreements provided a framework for the Kyiv government to retain political control over Ukraine's borders in the Donbas and included a path for the Kyiv government to reassert political control over Crimea.  The Kyiv government, Russia, and the Ukrainian separatists were involved in the negotiations and all agreed to a framework to resolve the issues.  France and Germany acted as mediators for the Minsk negotiations.

The Minsk agreements weren't a treaty.  But the negotiations did provide a framework for avoiding war, both in the Donbas and with Russia.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
PhD Principal
1.2.12  seeder  Nerm_L  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.2.9    2 months ago
Our military relationship started in 2014 after Russia seized Crimea.  

The military relationship between Ukraine, NATO, and the United States began in 1991 with Ukrainian independence.  NATO and the United States has had a military presence in western Ukraine for at least 20 years, ostensibly to provide training and serve as advisors.  

Ukraine applied to start the process of becoming a member of NATO in 2008.  President Yanukovych wanted Ukraine to be non-aligned and ended the efforts to become a member of NATO in 2010.  Ukraine was dependent upon Russia for trade and Yanukovych opposed ending ties with Russia for economic and security reasons.  Yanukovych wanted trade with Russia and with the EU.  And that required Ukraine remaining non-aligned.

The main conflict between Ukraine and Russia was over the price of natural gas.  Russia was using Ukrainian dependence upon Russian gas as leverage in that dispute.  Ukraine was using threats against Russian access to Crimea as leverage in that dispute.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
PhD Principal
1.2.13  seeder  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.10    2 months ago
We did not choose to fight a proxy war with Russia.   We, and allies, are reacting to a military invasion of a sovereign nation by providing them resources to fight off those who would steal its land, resources and control its people.

The national sovereignty of Ukraine was addressed in the Minsk agreements negotiated in 2014.  The Minsk agreements were mediated by France and Germany so its not like the EU and NATO weren't involved.  If the United States wanted to ensure the national sovereignty of Ukraine then the United States (and Obama administration) would have supported the Minsk agreements.  Is that what happened?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
1.2.14  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Nerm_L @1.2.12    2 months ago
NATO and the United States has had a military presence in western Ukraine for at least 20 years, ostensibly to provide training and serve as advisors.  

The first combined training event that I remember was during the summer of 2015 with our 173rd Airborne Brigade, and Ukrainian National Guard.  I don't think that US military aid started before 2014 and Obama resisted providing lethal aid.  

 
 
 
Nerm_L
PhD Principal
1.2.15  seeder  Nerm_L  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.2.14    2 months ago
The first combined training event that I remember was during the summer of 2015 with our 173rd Airborne Brigade, and Ukrainian National Guard.  I don't think that US military aid started before 2014 and Obama resisted providing lethal aid. 

The earliest reference I can find is Peace Shield-95 at the Yavoriv Training Center.    (Refer to the list on page 12.)

The Joint Multination Training Group-Ukraine is under the 7th Army Training Command. 

The United States has been preparing Ukraine for a proxy war with Russia over several decades.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
1.2.16  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Nerm_L @1.2.15    2 months ago

Looks like I was way off.  Thanks, it’s amazing what you can find on the web.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
PhD Principal
1.2.17  seeder  Nerm_L  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.2.16    2 months ago
Looks like I was way off.  Thanks, it’s amazing what you can find on the web.

Yep.  Google can be a friend.  Here's another that might be of interest:

Over the years the United States has provided a variety of military supplies to Ukraine; primarily vehicles like Humvees.  The Ukrainian military relies heavily upon Soviet, Russian, and domestically produced weapons.  The United States has been providing monetary aid so that Ukraine can buy or produce weapons.  And some US produced weapons have been donated to Ukraine by intermediary countries.  Ukraine has also purchased some arms directly from US producer.  But the Ukrainian military doesn't utilize that many US or NATO standard weapons.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
1.2.18  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Nerm_L @1.2.17    2 months ago

The turn around in the Ukrainian military is amazing.  

Ukraine’s Armed Forces entered the Donbass conflict in a decrepit state ; in the words of Ukrainian General Viktor Muzhenko , as “an army in ruins.” Kiev was confronted with two principal challenges: Ukraine sold or decommissioned a great swathe of its vast, but aging, Soviet military inheritance over the 1990s and 2000s; and the Ukrainian army suffered from poor training, rampant corruption, and flagging morale .

As was the failure of the Afghan military.  

Morale is a huge factor.  We taught the Afghan's to rely on us for airpower, intelligence, logistics, planning, etc.  and when Trump and Biden said good-by they panicked and it was every Afghan for himself.  We had a similar failure with the Iraqi military in the face of the Islamic State.

At the team / platoon level we could take brave, talented people and train them effectively but we failed at building institutions.  In the end, endemic corruption, rampant drug use, abysmal maintenance, inept logistics an plummeting morale did them in.  So many lives and several hundred billions dollars wasted.  

I lost a good friend, an Army general in Afghanistan and I know many that lost a child or their child lost a limb in Iraq.  Two colossal failures that require a great deal of self-examination of our military and our State Department.  Our military did that after our other huge failure, Vietnam.  The military learned from that and righted our wrongs, but perhaps we didn't retain those painful lessons learned.  I hope to hell that we relearn these lessons and don't keep shedding blood and treasure needlessly.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.19  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @1.2.13    2 months ago

You are speculating on the various considerations for supporting/not supporting Minsk.   You are also presuming that the USA had an initiative to ensure the national sovereignty of Ukraine (and thus by extension an initiative for the all sovereign nations on the planet).  

The USA and allies reacted, Nerm, to a military invasion on Ukraine.   The most straightforward and obvious explanation for this is that these nations believe it is wrong for a nation to invade another and then to engage in savage killing/rape/torture/mutilation of civilians.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.2.20  Kavika   replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.2.14    2 months ago

2/503rd 173rd Airborne is currently in Latvia.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
PhD Principal
1.2.21  seeder  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.19    2 months ago
You are speculating on the various considerations for supporting/not supporting Minsk.   You are also presuming that the USA had an initiative to ensure the national sovereignty of Ukraine (and thus by extension an initiative for the all sovereign nations on the planet).  

Several familiar figures are mentioned in this one. 

It was all Putin's fault then and it's still Putin's fault today. 

Biden is supposedly following the Obama Doctrine established when Biden was Vice President. 

In conclusion: Same people, same shit, different decade.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.22  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @1.2.21    2 months ago

You post an article that suggests diplomats in the state department and in the administration discuss the situation of world politics.    That is of course what they do.   Those discussions are a far cry from the USA having an initiative to ensure the national sovereignty of Ukraine that Biden executed as a proxy war.

Yes, the invasion of Ukraine and the subsequent murder / rape / mutilation / torture of its civilians and untold damage to its resources is Putin's fault.

What is with people like you coming up with conspiracy theories?   What drives people to this?

 
 
 
Nerm_L
PhD Principal
1.2.23  seeder  Nerm_L  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.2.18    2 months ago
The turn around in the Ukrainian military is amazing.  
Ukraine’s Armed Forces entered the Donbass conflict in a decrepit state ; in the words of Ukrainian General Viktor Muzhenko   , as “an army in ruins.” Kiev was confronted with two principal challenges: Ukraine sold or decommissioned a great swathe of its vast, but aging, Soviet military inheritance over the 1990s and 2000s; and the Ukrainian army suffered from poor training, rampant corruption, and flagging morale  .

The Ukrainian military was sent to the Donbas to wage war against a civilian population.  The Kyiv government was using tanks against protesters.  The separatists weren't a trained army.  Russia has been providing training and weapons to the separatists.  But OSCE observers haven't reported the presence of Russian fighting forces in Donbas but has reported the presence of Russian advisors and Russian trucks (obviously delivering weapons and munitions).  The separatists were able to create an army capable of holding back the Ukrainian military for eight years.

The Ukrainian military still relies heavily on Soviet equipment and munitions.  Zelensky has been demanding resupply from the former Soviet bloc.  That shouldn't be surprising.  Ukraine has a GDP of about $150 billion and modern weapons sold by the United States and Europe are exorbitantly expensive.   

 
 
 
Nerm_L
PhD Principal
1.2.24  seeder  Nerm_L  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.2.18    2 months ago
Morale is a huge factor.  We taught the Afghan's to rely on us for airpower, intelligence, logistics, planning, etc.  and when Trump and Biden said good-by they panicked and it was every Afghan for himself.  We had a similar failure with the Iraqi military in the face of the Islamic State.

Morale and motivation.  Without a reason to fight, morale is more difficult to maintain.  The Taliban was fighting to force invaders and occupiers out of Afghanistan.  What was the motivation for US trained Afghans to fight?  That's the old trope of 'winning hearts and minds'.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
PhD Principal
1.2.25  seeder  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.22    2 months ago
You post an article that suggests diplomats in the state department and in the administration discuss the situation of world politics.    That is of course what they do.   Those discussions are a far cry from the USA having an initiative to ensure the national sovereignty of Ukraine that Biden executed as a proxy war.

Diplomats discussing a situation in a foreign country and determining how to respond to that situation is one thing.  Senior State Dept. officials meeting with government officials in that foreign country to plan that government's response to an internal situation is another thing entirely.  Is there any doubt that the United States uses monetary aid as leverage to determine how a foreign government responds to internal affairs?

Joe Biden's quid pro quo demand on the Ukrainian government as official policy of the United States wasn't just diplomatic discussion and planning a response to an internal situation in Ukraine.  The official policy of the United States was to meddle in the Ukrainian government using monetary aid as leverage.

What is with people like you coming up with conspiracy theories?   What drives people to this?

When do facts become a conspiracy theory?  Obviously when the facts are inconvenient.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.26  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @1.2.25    2 months ago
When do facts become a conspiracy theory? 

Your conspiracy theory that Biden intentionally promoted this war as a proxy war with Russia is not based on facts.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
PhD Principal
1.2.27  seeder  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.26    2 months ago
Your conspiracy theory that Biden intentionally promoted this war as a proxy war with Russia is not based on facts.

Biden may or may not have promoted this war.  But Biden's response has been consistent with United States policy to meddle in the internal affairs of foreign governments.  And that meddling is intended to establish a proxy government that defends the interests of the United States.

In the case of Ukraine, the interests of the United States was to confront Russia.  Biden's response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine hasn't been about Ukraine.  Biden's response has been about Russia and how Russia threatens the interests of the United States.

In a hypothetical situation, if Poland had invaded Ukraine to reclaim territory lost during the Soviet era then Biden's response would have been quite different.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.28  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @1.2.27    2 months ago

The actual reality, however, is that Russia (Putin) chose to invade Ukraine to topple its government and control its land, resources and people.   Biden, et. al. did not instigate this war nor is he using it as a proxy.

Sometimes it is best to keep the fantasy in check and interpret reality at face value.   The free world is collectively in agreement that Russia is wrong and they are doing their best, short of engaging in war, to increase the chance that Russia (Putin) will fail and Ukraine will remain sovereign.

In a hypothetical situation, if Poland had invaded Ukraine to reclaim territory lost during the Soviet era then Biden's response would have been quite different.

Speculation is not helpful.

Russia has invaded Ukraine and is actively killing / raping / mutilating / torturing civilians.    Do you deem this act by Russia to be right or wrong?

 
 
 
Nerm_L
PhD Principal
1.2.29  seeder  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.28    2 months ago
The actual reality, however, is that Russia (Putin) chose to invade Ukraine to topple its government and control its land, resources and people.   Biden, et. al. did not instigate this war nor is he using it as a proxy.

We know Russia invaded Ukraine.  But toppling the Ukrainian government and controlling Ukrainian land, resources, and people wasn't part of Putin's justification for the invasion.  The Kyiv government and Russia have been negotiating since early in the invasion.  There hasn't been any reporting that Putin or Russia has demanded a change in the Ukrainian government.  Russia hasn't hindered the movement of refugees into western Ukraine and across the Ukrainian border into Poland or Romania; the transportation corridors in western Ukraine have not been attacked.  The fact that there are 10 million refugees who haven't been threatened doesn't align with the expectation that Russia intended to topple the Ukrainian government and control Ukraine's land, resources, and people.

Sometimes it is best to keep the fantasy in check and interpret reality at face value.   The free world is collectively in agreement that Russia is wrong and they are doing their best, short of engaging in war, to increase the chance that Russia (Putin) will fail and Ukraine will remain sovereign.

Simply looking at how the Russian invasion has unfolded doesn't support the claim that Russia was following a battle strategy or battle tactics to topple Ukraine's government or control Ukraine's land, resources, and people.  Russia has not threatened the western half of Ukraine, allowing a safe haven for refugees from combat zones.  Russia has avoided attacking civilian targets in the western half of Ukraine.

The actual reality doesn't align with the fantastic claims being made by the Zelensky government (or Biden and the US government).  The claims made by the Biden administration aren't supported by the facts of actual reality.  What is being reported is that Putin is failing to do what the United States and European governments expected Putin to do.  Actual reality suggests that Putin never intended to do what the west expected. 

The battle strategy and battle tactics employed by Russia during the invasion could never accomplish what the United States and European governments expected.  Russia could never topple the Kyiv government and control Ukrainian land, resources, and people without controlling the borders with Poland and Romania.  The Russian invasion never made any attempt to assert control over the borders with Poland and Romania.  Those are facts.  That's the actual reality.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.30  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @1.2.29    2 months ago
But toppling the Ukrainian government and controlling Ukrainian land, resources, and people wasn't part of Putin's justification for the invasion. 

Facts suggest otherwise:

Assassination plot against Zelensky foiled and unit sent to kill him ‘destroyed,’ Ukraine says

Putin certainly wants a puppet reinstalled in Ukraine.

Simply looking at how the Russian invasion has unfolded doesn't support the claim that Russia was following a battle strategy or battle tactics to topple Ukraine's government or control Ukraine's land, resources, and people. 

Amazing that someone can observe what is taking place in reality and then blindly provide defense for Putin while attacking Biden and the government of the USA.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
PhD Principal
1.2.31  seeder  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.30    2 months ago
Facts suggest otherwise:
Assassination plot against Zelensky foiled and unit sent to kill him ‘destroyed,’ Ukraine says

Then why did Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB) inform the Ukrainian government of the plot?  Today's FSB was the KGB in Soviet Russia.

If Putin wanted to install a puppet then why would Russian intelligence interfere with the Chechen unit sent to assassinate Zelensky?  The Kyiv governments' spin that the Russian FSB doesn't want to be involved in 'this bloody war' is so fantastic that it requires suspending disbelief.

Your link provides facts that confirm Putin never intended to topple the Ukrainian government.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.32  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @1.2.31    2 months ago
Your link provides facts that confirm Putin never intended to topple the Ukrainian government.

You are unaware that these were leaks by FSB members and not a communication from the Putin-controlled FSB organization??

Chechen fighters loyal to the Kremlin are being betrayed by Russian spies who are leaking their whereabouts to Ukrainian forces, an aide to President Zelensky has claimed.

-and-

Earlier today, Ramzan Kadyrov - the strongman leader of Chechnya - said that Chechens have been killed in Moscow's invasion of Ukraine . The unit was sent into Ukraine by Kadyrov, who is a staunch ally of Russian President Vladimir Putin .   

'We are already aware of the special operation that was to be carried out by Kadyrov forces unit,' Danilov said on Ukraine 24 TV channel, The Mirror reported .

'We received the information from representatives of Russia's Federal Security Service who do not want to take part in this bloody war.

Plenty of articles on this event in March.   Did you miss them all?

 
 
 
Nerm_L
PhD Principal
1.2.33  seeder  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.32    2 months ago
You are unaware that these were leaks by FSB members and not a communication from the Putin-controlled FSB organization??

Yeah, I read about it when it happened.  I'll ask you the same question I had then.  Why would the Zelensky government burn a source of leaked intelligence from inside the FSB?  And what did the Zelensky government get for burning that source inside the FSB?

I've also read about Kadyrov and Chechens fighting in Ukraine.  There are other groups fighting, too.  So, I ask again: How do we know who is doing what in Ukraine?  

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.34  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @1.2.33    2 months ago
How do we know who is doing what in Ukraine?  

This is the key to the problem with your various conspiracy theories.   You do not know, yet presume the worst of Zelensky and Biden.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
PhD Principal
1.2.35  seeder  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.34    2 months ago
This is the key to the problem with your various conspiracy theories.   You do not know, yet presume the worst of Zelensky and Biden.

What is being reported is little more than propaganda.  People can't even answer a simple question like why would Zelensky burn a source of intelligence inside the FSB?  The claim is so fantastic that it requires suspending disbelief.

Ukraine is a consumer of oil; not a producer of oil.  How could a war in Ukraine cause global oil shortages?  The global oil crunch has been solely caused by Biden's sanctions.  Neither Ukraine or Russia had anything to do with an oil shortage caused by ideologically driven United States policy.  That's true of other resources, as well.  

The United States, NATO, and European Union are trying to revive the Cold War and bring back the USSR.  Western policy has relied heavily on Cold War precedents and political rhetoric used against the USSR.  That's the only way for NATO to remain relevant in today's world.  But it's obvious that the Russian Federation is not the USSR.  The global economic turmoil arising from isolating the Russian Federation demonstrates that Russia has been integrating itself into that global economy. 

Russia invading Ukraine is little different than France invading Libya (which was a former French colony).  The French goal in Libya was regime change.  But it's not so clear that has been the Russian goal in Ukraine.  The United States was involved with the French Special Operations in Libya, France dumped the problem of a destabilized Libya onto the United States, and the United States screwed that up, too.  Why would the United States involvement in Ukraine be any different?

What I am concerned about is Biden dragging the United States into another two decade quagmire that is of no significance in global affairs.  The outcome in Ukraine, no matter what that outcome may be, won't change anything.  Biden is wrecking the global economy and destabilizing international relations to achieve nothing of importance.  Biden cannot fight a war while promising not to send in troops.  Biden cannot weaken Russia by isolating Russia.  Isolating Russia will only make Russia a bigger threat, like North Korea, because Russia already has the capability to threaten global war that North Korea does not have.  And the rest of the world will not sustain the sanctions necessary to isolate Russia so international relations will become more divisive and confrontational.  Russia standing up to the United States will attract countries into Russia's sphere of influence.

So, Slave Ukraini all you want.  In the end, it won't make any difference at all.  We're paying a heavy price for nothing of importance.  Biden has botched things up so badly there's no way to fix it now.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.2.36  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @1.2.35    2 months ago

Oil prices were rising before the Ukraine invasion.   This is due to the increased demand relative to the low demand of 2020/21 COVID days which forced a cut in supply and the loss of oil producers (going out of business).   It takes time to ramp up production levels.  The sanctions on Russian oil after the invasion added to the supply problem but did not cause the problem.  

Every comment from you blames Biden and USA for everything.   I see no hint of objective analysis.  

Your position is for the free world to collectively ignore the Ukraine invasion with no push-back on Putin.   In short, encourage aggressors like Putin to simply engage in invasions to acquire resources and murder/rape/torture/mutilate civilians with no consequences.    That is unrealistic and naive.   One cannot simply put on blinders and hope that everything will simply 'work out in the end'.  

Blame Putin, not Biden, et. al.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
PhD Principal
1.2.37  seeder  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @1.2.36    2 months ago
Your position is for the free world to collectively ignore the Ukraine invasion with no push-back on Putin.   In short, encourage aggressors like Putin to simply engage in invasions to acquire resources and murder/rape/torture/mutilate civilians with no consequences.    That is unrealistic and naive.   One cannot simply put on blinders and hope that everything will simply 'work out in the end'.  

Based upon what the United States, NATO, and EU have claimed since the end of the real Cold War, the resolution of the conflict in Ukraine requires a democratic process.  You think the rest of the world doesn't see that the rhetoric about defending democracy is just empty words?

You know, Russia conducted a referendum election in Crimea.  The separatists held referendum elections in Donetsk and Luhansk.  The people had a vote.  Even if the elections were rigged, at least there was a democratic process.  The Ukrainian government outright declared those elections were illegitimate and completely ignored those elections.  The Ukrainian government adopted a hard line autocratic policy and not a democratic policy.

You know, the Russia Federation proposed decentralized government as a resolution to avoid the war in Donbas.  What Russia proposed is very similar to our own decentralized government based on states with autonomous state governments.  Russia essentially used the United States as a model for allowing the DPR and LPR autonomy while maintaining Ukraine's national borders and national sovereignty.  Why can't the United States support that Russian proposal?

Biden isn't walking the talk.  And it's too obvious to hide with political spin.  

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
1.3  bbl-1  replied to  Nerm_L @1    2 months ago

This is not Biden's proxy war.  This war is democracy over autocracy.

Democracy did not ask for this war.  This war is forced upon Ukraine.  This war is Putin's choice.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
PhD Principal
1.3.1  seeder  Nerm_L  replied to  bbl-1 @1.3    2 months ago
This is not Biden's proxy war.  This war is democracy over autocracy. Democracy did not ask for this war.  This war is forced upon Ukraine.  This war is Putin's choice.

Yes, western democracies use threats of violence to subdue political opposition.  That's why an appointed Ukrainian government sending tanks into Donbas was acceptable.

Joe Biden has wrecked the global economy by dictating sanctions and threatening those who do not comply.  Biden has issued numerous orders that have been overturned by the courts so Biden supported stacking the courts.  Biden has tried to change the election process in the United States.  Biden has used the government to attempt to control the press and free speech.  Biden does not compromise; Biden only dictates and threatens.  And Biden is not an autocrat?

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
1.3.2  afrayedknot  replied to  Nerm_L @1.3.1    2 months ago

to paraphrase…

…never have so many words said so little to so few. 

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2  JBB    2 months ago

original

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
3  JBB    2 months ago

original

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
4  bbl-1    2 months ago

The West is dragging its feet.  Putin has made his move.  The Western democracies have a 'clear window' to end the Putin Regime, strike a throat punch to the number one supporter of autocratic governance and corruption in the World.

Give the Russian people the opportunity to join the world of the free and prosperous.  Russia could become very rich on its OIL at $50 a barrel and help the world in the Green Revolution at the same time. 

Navalny for President of The Russian Federation.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
4.1  Thrawn 31  replied to  bbl-1 @4    2 months ago
The Western democracies have a 'clear window' to end the Putin Regime, strike a throat punch to the number one supporter of autocratic governance and corruption in the World.

Nukes. That is why NATO isn't doing more than arming the shit out of the Ukranians. 

Give the Russian people the opportunity to join the world of the free and prosperous.  Russia could become very rich on its OIL at $50 a barrel and help the world in the Green Revolution at the same time. 

What were the last 2 decades? 

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
4.1.1  bbl-1  replied to  Thrawn 31 @4.1    2 months ago

Nukes?  Really?  You actually believe the Russian military would sacrifice their pensions, their nation, their families and their local bakery for Putin?

Besides, the end of Putin is coming and it not from us---------it is from them.

As far as OIL and the last two decades.  Two words.  Exxon Mobil.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
4.1.2  Thrawn 31  replied to  bbl-1 @4.1.1    2 months ago
Nukes?  Really?  You actually believe the Russian military would sacrifice their pensions, their nation, their families and their local bakery for Putin?

No. But I do believe that one or a few russians would believe in the cause enough or just follow orders enough to kill us all. That is a risk I do not want to take. We have to assume that 100% of their missiles will launch, even though maybe 50% would, but those 50% will be devastating.

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
4.1.3  bbl-1  replied to  Thrawn 31 @4.1.2    2 months ago

No.  To launch a nuclear strike requires the permission of too many.  And the Russian military knows that Putin is not worth it.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
4.2  Ronin2  replied to  bbl-1 @4    2 months ago

You are really naive.

The West is dragging its feet.  Putin has made his move.  The Western democracies have a 'clear window' to end the Putin Regime, strike a throat punch to the number one supporter of autocratic governance and corruption in the World.

Putin would nuke the world 3 times over if the West tried to set one foot on Russian soil. "He is deranged; He is a madman; but he won't destroy us all if we try to take him out!" Talk about a real disconnect with reality. Putin doesn't give a fuck about anyone but Putin. "But don't worry he won't destroy the world rather than lose".

Forget about China? You know the smarter, more heavily armed (now that the west has used it's proxy Ukraine to diminish Russia's military), larger military, and just autocratic as Russia? Xi would like to than you for ignoring him; hell the left worshipping him in many instances. Since China is what the left hope to make the US. 

.

Give the Russian people the opportunity to join the world of the free and prosperous.  Russia could become very rich on its OIL at $50 a barrel and help the world in the Green Revolution at the same time. 

Learned nothing from history? Russian leaders get more hard line and less pro West. The US had it's chance with Gorbachev- who was very pro West. We fucked him over by flipping former Soviet satellite states to NATO. Bring on Yeltsin- not nearly as pro Western; and we screwed him over as well. Enter Putin- the current Western boogeyman. Think they don't have someone even worse waiting in the wings to replace Putin?

$50 a barrel for oil; and you think Russia would be very rich? Glad you don't run, I mean wreck, any economies. At $50 a barrel Arabs start cutting production whole sale. US oil companies start losing investors; and have real problems securing loans- with Biden's current environmental regulations they shut down production for good. Hell, US companies aren't ramping up production at $120 a barrel. But Democrats (read Biden) are too damn stupid to ask them why? So Russia is supposed to operate at a severe loss to supply the rest of the planet with cheap oil and gas, while we sit on our reserves and wait for theirs to run out? I am sure they will go for that. They owe us so fucking much./S

Navalny for President of The Russian Federation.

The only way that will ever happen is if the US/NATO takes over all of Russia (again Putin will destroy the planet several times over before that happens); and install him as a puppet leader. Which has worked out so damn well whenever and where ever we have done that./S Give him less than a year and he will be overthrown- since the Russians don't tolerate puppets or outsiders.

Of course all that happens after a World War III that will cost how many US lives and resources?

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
4.2.1  bbl-1  replied to  Ronin2 @4.2    2 months ago

Those who are stuck in the prejudices of the past cannot envision a future without them.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5  Kavika     2 months ago

It seems that our proxies /s are doing a very good job. In the last 3 days, they have sunk two Raptor class Russian patrol boats and one Serna class landing ship on or around Snake Island. Then earlier today the tiny proxie (/s) Ukrainian air force stuck the island. Two SU 27 came in at treetop level and destroyed what was left of the Russian military on Snake Island...

There is verification and video of all of the above. 

Additionally, they claim to have hit the Russian frigate Admiral Makarov with a missile and she is on fire. (no confirmation on this one).

We know how to pick proxies. /s

BTW, the US fought a proxie war with Russian and China, it was called Vietnam. 

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
5.1  bbl-1  replied to  Kavika @5    2 months ago

I was there.  We lost.

But-----in hindsight and more mature retrospect--There was nothing to win and everything to lose.

This Ukraine thing IS the most honorable/patriotic thing the US has done since WW2.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.1.1  Kavika   replied to  bbl-1 @5.1    2 months ago
I was there. 

I was as well. 

This Ukraine thing IS the most honorable/patriotic thing the US has done since WW2.

Granted it is very important thing as was Korea.

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
5.1.2  bbl-1  replied to  Kavika @5.1.1    2 months ago

Certainly pray that Ukraine does not end up like Korea.  We did not play our cards right there.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.1.3  Kavika   replied to  bbl-1 @5.1.2    2 months ago
Certainly pray that Ukraine does not end up like Korea. 

Agreed, I don't want to see Ukraine partitioned like Korea.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.4  Texan1211  replied to  bbl-1 @5.1.2    2 months ago

[delete]

 
 

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