Trump says flag burning is a crime, First Amendment be damned
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Trump says flag burning is a crime, First Amendment be damned
by Lisa NeedhamDaily Kos StaffFollowView Profile 5-6 minutes
President Donald Trump and Attorney General Pam Bondi are a dream team when it comes to trying to violate Americans’ right to free speech.
Bondi claims to have figured out a way to prosecute people for burning the U.S. flag without violating Texas v. Johnson , the 1989 Supreme Court decision that ruled flag burning is protected under the First Amendment.
“We will do that without running afoul of the First Amendment,” she said.
Oh, okay, as long as you say so.
Generally, criminalizing speech that the Supreme Court has said is protected by the First Amendment … runs afoul of the First Amendment. But since both Trump and Bondi think they are the smartest people in the room, let’s entertain the logic in his dumb executive order , issued on Monday, that would put people in jail for desecrating the American flag.
Attorney General Pam Bondi, shown in June.
Trump and Bondi are not going to prosecute flag burning as such. Instead, they will prosecute people for desecrating the flag if they decide it is likely to incite some additional imminent lawless action, because the Supreme Court has never held that that is protected. As if Bondi remembered for one moment she is the most powerful lawyer in the country, she slapped one citation in here to back this up—to the Supreme Court case that ruled it was protected. Good luck figuring out what she’s trying to say here.
They will also prosecute people for flag burning if it discriminates against American citizens or violates their civil rights. It is exhausting to keep explaining to the attorney general of the United States that protected First Amendment expression cannot, by its nature, violate someone’s civil rights. But hey, what about those immigrants who burn it, huh??
“American Flag burning is also used by groups of foreign nationals as a calculated act to intimidate and threaten violence against Americans because of their nationality and place of birth,” Trump’s order claimed.
See above and go read the flag-burning case you read in law school, Pam. In throwing out Texas’s law criminalizing flag burning, the Supreme Court basically told people to stop being such pussies:
We are fortified in today's conclusion by our conviction that forbidding criminal punishment for conduct such as Johnson's will not endanger the special role played by our flag or the feelings it inspires. To paraphrase Justice Holmes, we submit that nobody can suppose that this one gesture of an unknown man will change our Nation's attitude towards its flag.
All of this is red meat for Trump’s base, but it’s also just a way to attack immigrants. Per his order, “The Secretary of State, the Attorney General, and the Secretary of Homeland Security, acting within their respective authorities, shall deny, prohibit, terminate, or revoke visas, residence permits, naturalization proceedings, and other immigration benefits, or seek removal from the United States, pursuant to Federal law … whenever there has been an appropriate determination that foreign nationals have engaged in American Flag-desecration activity under circumstances that permit the exercise of such remedies pursuant to Federal law.”
The Supreme Court, shown in 2024.
What exactly is the definition of “American Flag-desecration activity” for which you could be rendered to prison? Who can say! But to be perfectly frank, we do know what it looks like to disrespect the flag in a profound way that wounds our country as a whole: The Jan. 6, 2021, insurrectionists, who were whipped into a froth at Trump’s behest, used the American flag to attack law enforcement. Got your desecration right here, pal.
No matter how Trump phrases it, he cannot create a criminal cause of action out of thin air. If conservatives want this so bad, get Congress to pass it and get your conservative pals on the Supreme Court to rule it constitutional.
Though the executive order tried to be vaguely crafted enough to imply that they wouldn’t prosecute unless the desecration violated some other underlying law, Trump couldn’t even keep it together for the duration of the signing ceremony.
“You burn a flag, you get one year in jail,” he said. “You don't get 10 years. You don't get one month. You get one year in jail. And it goes on your record, and you will see flag burning stopping immediately.”
If Bondi can illegally arrest and try to prosecute someone by pretending this executive order is a law, the administration might get lucky. None of the Supreme Court justices who decided the flag case remain on the bench. Who knows—with this crop of conservatives who believe the only speech that should be protected is anything that offends their tiny conservative Christian eyeballs, Trump might have a shot.
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How many months or years in prison for Alito's wife, or people who fly American flags with Trumps face on them?
I wish one of the reporters who kiss his ass every day would find the courage to ask him that.
Did you read your own article?
There is a distinction in this law:
"Instead, they will prosecute people for desecrating the flag if they decide it is likely to incite some additional imminent lawless action, because the Supreme Court has never held that that is protected."
It isn't simply for burning the flag.
this is an argument made up out of thin air. they are going to prosecute someone because a certain result was deemed "likely" ? by who?
btw, it was "likely" that breaching police barriers on Jan6th would incite more violence against the police, so everyone who passed the point of the barriers should have been prosecuted , thousands of people.
the U.S. flag code absolutely prohibits putting Trumps face on a flag
Has Trump ever told people who have shown those flags to knock it off?
Mrs Alito was not in danger or distress when she flew the US flag upside down OUTSIDE HER HOUSE, for days or weeks. Clear flag code violation.
He is pushing the envelope as they say. If it can be successfully argued that in certain cases an American flag is burned to create violence maybe the Court will make the exception, probably not, but it is worth the try.
Now why would they do that?
And I was asked..."What desecration did trmp do?"
If he allowed his face on the flag he is supporting the desecration.
I dont think he instigated it but he never said anything against it either.
that is desecrating the flag...it shows no respect for the flag
Although I disagree with burning the flag, I understand it is commonly used as a first amendment right by the left, and that is OK. It is well known by many on the left hate this country and this is how they express that hate.
However, the intent of the EO was to punish those who burn the flag in order to incite violence. Not sure how that will be proven, but I understand the intent of the EO.
I am against the EO myself. IMO it should never have been written. But like so many comments on this site, this is my opinion only.
Link?
Quite possibly you do not know that the left has been wrong on every 80/20 issue facing this country since Trump took office.
What is it like giving up values and ethics all in the name of Trump.
Don't hate my country, just the far-right wing fascists (like Trump) that are trying to destroy it.
‘Don't hate my country, just the far-right wing fascists (like Trump) that are trying to destroy it.’
Can you be exact as to what it is Trump is doing to make him a fascist?
Problem with the left is most constantly use words they have no idea what it means. This is one of thise times.
SCOTUS decided this in Texas v Johnson (1989), where the Supreme Court ruled 5-4 that burning the American flag is a form of " symbolic speech " protected by the First Amendment, making it unconstitutional for the government to prohibit such acts. I think they'll be hard pressed to overturn that.
I think a quote from the movie The American President said it best. (bolding is mine to highlight the part of the quote)
However, to all the Democrats who are currently up in arms over this, to me this is just another I hate Trump bit where they must automatically shout against Trump. I don't want this attempt by Trump to go anywhere but it wasn't all that long ago that the Democrats were actually for a constitutional amendment to make flag desecration a punishable offense.
Yes, but he wasn't arrested for burning a flag. He was arrested for lighting a fire in a park outside of a designated area. Your link states it.
He was correct in his heart but wrong in his execution.
Sure... since the days of Clinton and Bush, Jr, exercising 1st Amendments can only be done in designated areas... It was a WTF moment then and now it's only getting worse.
Did you even read your own link? He was arrested for lighting a fire in a public park and not in a designated area for having a fire. The law doesn't state any exceptions, it clearly states no fire in a non-designated area of a public park. It really doesn't matter what he lit on fire, it's the act of making a fire that was wrong.
As I said, he was correct in his heart but wrong in his execution. Not sure what you are arguing here. Are you trying to say the law should be ignored on First Amendment reasons?
By "Clinton and Bush Jr" of course you mean "Hoover and Roosevelt".
Not all of us are fans of Hillary Clinton. She has an authoritarian streak in her that's as wide as trmp's
True, but the law she was speaking about was co-sponsored by 52 Democratic Representatives and 1 Republican Representative. It was passed into law and signed by President Johnson. This was the Flag Protection Act of 1989. SCOTUS later overturned the law saying it was unconstitutional.
H.R.2978 - 101st Congress (1989-1990): Flag Protection Act of 1989 | Congress.gov | Library of Congress
I'm not a fan of most politicians but I still wonder about what's behind the current opposition to the EO from Trump other than it's Trump.
Signed by Pres Johnson? Well, there ya go. That man and his congress were all authoritarians, too. Look at the mess they got us into in Vietnam.
I'm sure the current opposition is because it's trmp. But most of us know he doesn't have a brain in his head and once again he thinks he can issue an edict and it becomes law because he said so
Yul Brynner in the Ten Commandments...."So let it be written...so let it be done"
How many other presidents affected an armed take over a US city and said he planned for more?
So that's the reason? It's ok to be against the EO from Trump on flag burning (the topic, ya know) because he brought federal resources including National Guard troops to combat crime in Washington DC?
I know, you don't like Trump. I don't care. The topic is the EO on flag burning. Care to try again? Or just resort to tossing shit in hopes that it works. What ever..
He's attempting to execute the Project 2025 playbook. It's not some QAnon bullshit they fucking wrote it down. I don't think it will work in the end, but the damage they are doing and the chaos they are creating is mind boggling.
If taking one thing out of context helps you sleep at night...
You have a link for that? I just parsed thru the Project 2025 pdf and I don't find anything relating to descrating the US Flag. Also from Google AI:
So I can't find any evidence to verify your statement. Can you?
Taking out of context? Laughable... The topic was flag burning and you are the one who posted this
What does that statement have to do with a stupid EO on burning the US Flag? Your statement had nothing to do with the rest of the thread. Care to try again?
Are you seriously being this obtuse or are you trolling me?
Glass houses - stones.
Trolling you or obtuse? No. As I said, I pulled up a pdf of the Project 2025 and did a search on the word 'flag'. It did not show anything about burning the flag or other desecrations. Go ahead, here's the .pdf of Project2025. You can do a page search for the word 'flag' just as I did. There are 15 occurrences of the word 'flag' and nowhere in there is anything about burning or desecrating the flag.
2025_MandateForLeadership_FULL.pdf
I also did a google search on the phrase ' Project 2025 on burning the flag' and provided you what was found. There is nothing in Project2025 that I can find to substantiate your claim.
So the onus is on you. Provide your evidence to back up your statement or one will have to believe you are just tossing out shit.
What if a person had 100 copies of the Declaration of Independence and 100 copies of the Constitution, sat in front of a burn pit and filmed/posted these items being fed into the flames while explaining why he thinks this government is acting in the wrong?
100% within his First Amendment rights. Not a problem. I just hope that the person would articulate in clear terms why he thinks the government is wrong and not resort to partisan talking points. Provide concrete examples and provide clear reasoning, not the pablum rational presented by too many.
What if?
In that case I was consider him to be a bit of an eccentric.
Taking away the rights of an American veteran no less. Trump wasn't kidding about being a "dictator on day one", it was never just a joke.
If you are talking about the veteran who was arrested for setting fire to a flag in Lafayette Park Monday evening, that's already been proven that it was not for the flag. He was arrested for lighting a fire in a public park which is not allowed except for designated areas for a fire.
The article states he was burning the flag in response to the EO that Trump signed. But he was not arrested for burning the flag. There was no taking away of rights from the man.
As I said above, his heart was in the right place but he was wrong in his execution.
Not sure how this became a point of confusion, but Americans don't actually have the right to set a fire wherever they want. Never have.
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Trump Declares, ‘I Have the Right To Do Anything I Want’ Because ‘I’m the President’
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Somebody has to clean up that shithole.
So if the EO is about desecrating the flag...is bondi going to prosecute trmp for all his desecration of the flag?
What desecration would that be?
And the lefts idiocy makes its presence known again. Because TRUMP made flag burning a crime the left is throwing, yet another, tantrum. Seems they forget that Biden proposed the exact same thing in 1995 . Or that Hillary Clinton supported the same thing.
It’s ‘D’ifferent when they do it.