The One About FAITH
When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth? Luke 18:8
The Conversion of John Newton
With our ships, the great object is to be full. When the ship is there, it is thought desirable, she should take as many [slaves] as possible. The cargo of a vessel of a hundred tons, or little more, is calculated to purchase from two hundred and twenty to two hundred and fifty slaves . Their lodging-rooms below the deck, which are three, (for men, the boys, and the women,) besides a place for the sick, are sometimes more than five feet high and sometimes less; and this height is divided towards the middle, for the Slaves lie in two rows, one above the other, on each side of the ship, close to each other, like books upon a shelf. I have known them so close that the shelf would not, easily, contain one more.
And I have known a white man sent down among the men, to lay them in these rows to the greatest advantage, so that as little space as possible might be lost. Let it be observed, that the poor creatures, thus cramped for want of room, are likewise in irons, for the most part both hands and feet, and two together, which makes it difficult for them to turn or move, to attempt either to rise or to lie down, without hurting themselves, or each other. Nor is the motion of the ship, especially her heeling, or stoop on one side, when under sail, to be admitted; for this, as they lie athwart, or across the ship, adds to the uncomfortableness of their lodging, especially to those who lie on the leeward, or leaning side of the vessel. Dire is the tossing,deep the groans.
The heat and the smell of these rooms when the weather will not admit of the slaves being brought upon the deck, and of having their rooms cleaned every day, would be, almost, insupportable, to a person not accustomed to them. If the Slaves and their rooms can be constantly aired, and they are not detained too long on board, perhaps there are not many die; but the contrary is often their lot. They are kept down, by the weather, to breathe a hot and corrupted air, sometimes for a week: this, added to the galling of their irons, and the despondency which seizes their spirits, when thus confined, soon becomes fatal. And every morning, perhaps, more instances than one are found, of the living and dead , like the Captives of Mezentinus, fastened together. —Pgs. 33-35.
"How industrious is Satan served. I was formerly one of his active undertemptors and had my influence
been equal to my wishes I would have carried all the human race with me. A common drunkard or
profligate is a petty sinner to what I was."
“I not only sinned with a high hand myself but made it my study to tempt and seduce others upon every occasion. ” Revealing the first glimpse of his later talent as a hymn-writer, he composed a derogatory song about his new captain and taught it to the entire crew. He had to leave the ship in a hurry after that bout of troublemaking; so Newton’s next move was to work for a shore-based slave trader in Sierra Leone. He indulged in every available vice including witchcraft. Accused (unfairly) of stealing, he fell afoul of his employer’s black mistress, a tribal princess who imprisoned him in chains, starved him, and treated him brutally. He was recused from a remote part of the West African coastline by a ship’s captain from Liverpool. Because Newton’s lifestyle had improved by this time, he initially refused the offer of a passage home, but the thought of seeing Polly [future wife] again won him over.
During the long voyage to England Newton again behaved appalling as a troublemaker. Although he had been brought up in the Christian faith by his
devout mother, who died when he was six, Newton had become such an aggressive atheist and blasphemer that even his shipmates were shocked by his oaths.
During his 1748 voyage to England after his rescue, Newton had a spiritual conversion. The ship encountered a severe storm off the coast of Donegal, Ireland and almost sank. Newton awoke in the middle of the night and, as the ship filled with water, called out to God. “The ship is sinking!” The ship was badly holed and waterlogged. As it seemed to be going down, Newton, to his own astonishment, began to pray, “Lord, have mercy on us!”
After many hours of extreme peril, the storm subsided, the cargo shifted and stopped up the hole, and the ship drifted to safety. [i] “About this time,“ he said. “I began to know that there is a God who answers prayer.”
Almost immediately Newton stopped swearing, changed his licentious lifestyle, and started to pray and read the Bible. From that day, March 21, 1748, until his death in 1807 he never let a year go by without recognizing in prayerful thanksgiving what he called his “great turning day” of conversion. [ii]
“How unworthy and unlikely was I to preach that faith which I had renounced and scorned! What
difficulties were in the way, which thou only couldst remove. But thou didst it; and hast now supported
me in it thirty-eight years, restraining me from those evils and errors which might have hurt my
character and prevented my usefulness, and from which, nothing short of thy power and grace could
restrain a heart so vile as mine.”
John Newton, Rector St Mary Woolnoth, London, 4 August 1802 [iii]
Hymn writer: Amazing Grace
The Conversion of George Foreman
An impoverished youth, George Foreman often bullied younger children and didn't like getting up early for school. Foreman became a mugger and brawler on the hard streets of Houston's Fifth Ward by age 15. [iv] "You know what it's like to mug somebody?" he asks. "To get him down, like he's so much trash? And you know he feels like trash. And he's yelling" --Foreman actually whispers it, though-- "'Hey, hey, hey.'" The refrain of submission, surprise, even self-hatred that accompanied each awful victimization, every one performed with carefree cruelty. He hears them all, and there were plenty. [v] As a teenage mugger, George [once] 'covered myself with mud from a busted sewer pipe under a house so the police dogs couldn't sniff me out' [vi]
"Oh, I was a dangerous fella, all right," Foreman says. "It wasn't no act. If some wealthy guy drove by in a limo and gave me a finger, I'd find him." [vii ]
At 16, Foreman was a school dropout on his way to a West Coast Job Corps camp, where he would be trained in carpentry and other manual skills. He took his bad attitude with him, and fistfights were not rare. But — in what might have been the luckiest break of his life — Foreman’s rowdiness caught the eye of the camp boxing coach, Charles Broadus, who challenged Foreman to take his fighting to the ring. The gambit paid off with Foreman claiming a gold medal in heavyweight boxing at the 1968 Mexico City Olympics. The win propelled Foreman to a pro career and heavyweig ht championship victories over Joe Frazier in 1973 and Michael Moorer in 1994.
No one was more surprised by his embrace of religion than Foreman himself. 
George’s ultimate reckoning with religion came in 1977, minutes after he was pummeled into defeat by the hea vyweight Jimmy Young, and it came in the most frightening way. “In the dressing room, I was walking back and forth to cool off,” he told The Houston Chronicle. “Then in a split second, I was fighting for my life.” Foreman’s mind filled with battling thoughts: preening pride versus death and panic. Foreman bargained, offering to devote his boxing prize money to charity. “I don’t want your money,” Foreman heard a voice say. “I want you.” Instantly he found himself cast into the bleakest darkness he had experienced. “It was the saddest, most horrible place I had ever seen,” he said.
Then a “giant hand” plucked him into consciousness. Foreman found himself on a locker room table, surrounded by friends and staff members. He felt as if he were physically filled with the presence of a dying Christ. He felt his forehead bleed, punctured by a crown of thorns; his wrists, he believed, had been pierced by nails of the cross.
“I knew that Jesus Christ was coming alive in me,” Foreman said. "I kissed everybody in the dressing room and told them I loved them. That happened in March 1977, and I never have been the same again.”
The change was noticed immediately by the boxing world. “There was a transformation from a young, hard character who felt a heavyweight champion should carry himself with menace to a very affectionate personality,” the HBO boxing commentator Larry Merchant said. “I would say this was a sincere evolution of a human being maturing, and it suggests real effort.” [viii]
Mr. George Foreman is founder and minister of the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ in Houston, Texas.
The Realm of Faith
2 Corinthians 5:7. For we live by faith not by sight.
In the illustrated lives of both men above, there arrived a day when the life courses of both men changed inside them. These men entered: The Realm of Faith .
For an ordinary series of years Newton and Foreman were on unbroken paths of reason and experiences. One day in a “twinkling” faith adjoined their lives. Faith answers existential questions in those in which it inhabitants.
For true believers, dwelling in faith is not a counterfeit act or forced condition. Faith properly constituted, can cause a state of relaxation inside the soul. Moreover, faith can be viewed as a kingdom or city dwelling place . Doing so, it becomes easier to understand how in living out their faith lives, some denizens build near or at faith’s borders and others bore in towards faith’s center . In everyday symbolism, it is existing on the edge of faith or, living well-established in it.
As it is in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Daughter), there are many who enter a life of faith through some extraordinary amount of loss, defect, or expectation . Each individual can shed, repair, or achieve something new through a life change. For example, the thief seeks a way out of a life of crime and disappointing others. The alcoholic desires to be restored to a new orderly time. And, the murderer yearns for a way off and forward from a sinister past. There are innumerable scenarios for seekers to chart to faith.
I grew up in a Baptist tradition. I was baptized at 8 years of age. Upon becoming a young adult, I walked away from the Church. The order found in church life was not what I had in my mind for my future. I was growing up to be fundamentally different. There were no hard feeling between my former church members and me. We all simply parted ways. I on an odyssey of self-discovery.
My plan was to go out into the world and allow reason and experiences to teach me the truths of this life and perchance, if there was anything to spiritual reality, I could choose to discover (rediscover) that. Walking away from familiar settings, and hang outs complete with family, friends, sounds, and smells is tantamount to be consigned to the wilderness! For me it was necessary, nevertheless. I felt I had no other serious choice than to become one of the “not-knowing.” An Agnostic .
Decades have passed, and I can still remember that inward conversation with myself. I chose to step out into life “uncovered.” In order to:
- Find myself. Life on my terms.
- Find God. A spiritual awakening of some kind.
- Find life and spiritual awakening.
-
Swift death or long life.
I lived in a nonreligious, secular world. I indulged myself in many facets of this life with abandon. I lived my life handsomely, but as I pointed out in another article, love’s ‘true kiss’ eluded me all the while. There has been such a great deal of violence, hatred, and confusion over same-sex relationships in our nation’s background. No one like a President Barack Obama had shown up to put a ‘cap’ on the public discrimination, bigotry, and humiliation which was pervasive in the United States.
Fact is, being “gay” used to be a major dead-end street. You simply got old, and mostly did so alone.
At the end, like the Prodigal Son (Matthew 21:28), I “came to my senses” and turned to seeking the meaning of life in other ways. I was sick and tired of dead ends. Had my fill of the sights, sounds, and smells of being ‘out there.’ I wanted to find a place inwardly in order to surrender to peace and calm.
Growing older, sleeping around, being taken advantaged of, injured or “savagely” killed simply was my worse fear, and by no means a proper way to end up! As a Seeker, spirituality found me. I successfully entered the dimension of faith. I have been an inhabitant in this realm for 25 years now. I included George Foreman’s conversion for a personal consideration. There is similarity to his conversion experience and my own: A kinship of running water at conversion.
On the day of my conversion, it happened that I was thinking over many spiritual statements which had been explained to me, while at the same time showering up for work. As I stood under the running water answers to long-overdue questions began to flow into my mind. I remember tingling with revelation and clarity. From that day in 1993 to 2018, my life has been drastically changed.
So reader, faith is a lifestyle many enter into and having done so can live out their lives therein.
:::::
[i] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Newton#Spiritual_conversion
[ii] John-Newton: Disgrace-Amazing-Grace, by Johnathan Aitken, Phillip Yancey. Page. 19 – 20.
[iii] https://www.johnnewton.org/Groups/256702/The_John_Newton/new_menus/Journals/ MiscellaneousThoughts/Commendations/Commendations.aspx
[iv] http://www.georgeforeman.com/biography
[v] https://www.si.com/vault/2003/12/01/355150/born-again-and-again-and-again-from-nasty-heavyweight-champ-to-humble-preacher-to-jolly-heavyweight-champ-to-zillionaire-pitchman-george-foreman-is-a-miracle-of-reinvention
[vi] http://tyronemalone.blogspot.com/2007/12/george-foreman-teen-mugger.html
[vii] https://www.si.com/vault/2003/12/01/355150/born-again-and-again-and-again-from-nasty-heavyweight-champ-to-humble-preacher-to-jolly-heavyweight-champ-to-zillionaire-pitchman-george-foreman-is-a-miracle-of-reinvention
[viii] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/09/sports/the-conversion-of-george-foreman-packing-a-wallop-in-the-pulpit.html
I lived in a nonreligious, secular world. I indulged myself in many facets of this life with abandon. I lived my life handsomely, but as I pointed out in another article, love’s ‘true kiss’ eluded me all the while. There has been such a great deal of violence, hatred, and confusion over same-sex relationships in our nation’s background. No one like a President Barack Obama had shown up to put a ‘cap’ on the public discrimination, bigotry, and humiliation which was pervasive in the United States.
Fact is, being “gay” used to be a major dead-end street. You simply got old, and mostly did so alone.
I don't know I agree with you about that. I know lots of gay couples that have been together now for at least 30 years.. Maybe it is more where you live kind of thing, and not so much about being gay.
Interesting stuff here. You said that you were raised as a Baptist. There is a Jesuit saying that goes, "Give me the child till 7 and I will show you the adult". It seems to me, that was what happened to you, (of course I could be wrong). Are you still a Baptist?
Perrie, what percentage does "lots" represent? One percent, two, three, more? Of course, there are exceptions. Even beyond the era of President Obama there are same-sex people who choose to remain single and alone for whatever reason. Rachel Maddox comes to mind, for I heard her say on-air she has no plans to consider marriage. For now anyway.
By the way, I have been in the faith 'realm' for 25 years. Moreover, I wrote "used to be a major dead-end street." Homosexuals had no support in society they could legally depend on, up until recent events. And yes, I knew men-couples and women-couples who held their relationships together despite the pressures resisting that very thing. So many pressures. Also, you should know there are different "genres" or classifications of homosexual expression. Just like there must have been variations on the theme of slave holders (see John Newton) and prize boxers (see George Foreman) above.
This article is about the journey to faith. Thus, it is set in the past.
Yes, I was raised in a Baptist home. I do not profess a nomination today. I draw truth from across the spectrum. In this way, I can take the good and leave the dross on the 'cutting room' floor. Thanks for sharing.
Don Lemon and Anderson Cooper, both men are in separate long-term relationships, but no plans to marry. Part of the difference? I'd think so.
LOL.. am I done?
Of course not! LOL! I am so THRILLED you 'talk' to me about these matters. Questions and comments make these articles work. Ask and answer away! (Smile.)
OK I will continue
I do know a lot of gay men of our generation that have been in stable long term relationships and I have met their friends and most of them were, too. So what I think really changed was the option of getting married. But you need not get married to legal arrangements made to protect your partner. I think having the option open is right, though, and many of these couples have chosen this option.
Here is a cool site on lots of stats on gay life:
Of course! I am a very curious person.... can't you tell? LOL!
OK, so this leaves me with a huge question (feel no obligation to answer). If you pick and choose from across the spectrum, why did you pick not keep your faith, but also live life as a gay man. I have friends who have done just that. Would you not want to try life as a gay man post the Obama years and keep your spiritual aspects of your life?
Great question! And yes, you are doing it again! LOL! You're getting ahead of the era! This is the one about (coming to) Faith.
Psst! Keep this just between us, for now. Okay?
1. Living in the realm of faith requires being true to oneself. Personally, I am not thoroughly satisfied Christian scripture, and especially New Testament letters, can be rightly divided to include same-sex marriage. Clearly, fornication is a no-no! And. I have heard nearly all the arguments for and against. I have a vested interest, as you can tell.
2. I am completely okay with people coming to their own decisions and conclusions on Christian doctrines. And, their personal manner of living too.
3. I enjoy the process of figuring this all out slowly, "at my age." There is no urgency to attach myself to someone. My faith is sufficient after all these years.
Does that help explain things? Somewhat?
Did you just supply me with 'data' on homosexual life in the United States? Well as I live and breathe! LOL! Just goes to show ya!
Hey you two! Hope you are both doing well......
I have read through some of your conversation......sorry if I wasn't supposed to.....
But I have a question for you Cal my Brother. Do you think you could find a woman that could keep you company.....give you comfort ....and Love? I am someone who never understood how a man could be attracted to another man......In fact I really don't know what women see in us men...(I'm glad they do!)......I think guys are harry, smell funny, and just though churns my stomach......I guess had I been born a Woman.....I would have been the biggest Lesbian on the Planet.....LOL
WELCOME. Come on in! The discussions are OPEN to all. Doing just fine, brother.
TAP. TAP. TAP. If I had a dollar for every time I have heard a guy suggest a 'solution' to same-sex attraction. . . I'd be. . . . Some of my military buddies had a "million" of those sayings.'Teats' on a bull readily comes to mind. "Hard-legs," too. And, for that lesbian reference -- I know about that one too. In my past life, I knew guys who solely watched Lesbian porn! ———So. Many. Questions.
As to getting involved with a woman today. No need. I am not lonely. If I become lonely, I would find someone. It would not be a woman. I have more respect for women than to bring them into my situation. Once a person is clear on how things are with him or her, they just ought not to play around with other people's emotions!
TAP, so far, this blog is 'capturing' past life moments. I am opening up a bit about myself. Now brother, how about you?
What do you think of the article as a whole? Do you see faith as a realm (of existence)? Do you know many people who have left the faith nexus? Friends! The focus need not be all on me and my past life. (Smile.)
The thread is open for discussion.
I think your article is well written and tells your story of finding God.
Not sure Cal.....I would describe my faith as something that I have a hard time remembering what it was like when I didn't have it......
No ....I can't recall anyone off the top of my head.....
Oh I had some times of crazy wild times........I went to College at WVU (one of the top party schools in the nation). I think I did my fair share of partying, chasing girls and in general raising hell.....I did manage to get my Degree......and Get Married to my Awesome Wife.....We moved to Ohio (job).....Worked there for a total of 15 years.....I did move to South Western Virginia for 2 years.....then back to Ohio.....We bought a small farm and built our Second House and Started 2 Businesses.......I have enjoyed my life very much.....I have been blessed with Great Friends and Family.....(although my relationship with my parents has been a rocky one)......My business challenges me and keeps me busy most of the time......I have 2 Children 18 and 22.....both very gifted (brilliant)....my oldest already has her masters degree....summa cume lade.....she has many honors and achievements......I think they both took after their mother (thank God) more than me.....
As far as my Spiritual Journey.......I really don't remember what it was like to not believe in God.......I took Jesus as my Savior at a very early age (8 or 9)......there have been times when I put my faith on the back burner.....and I did pay a price for that......but my Faith in God is Strong.....I have an active role in a small Country Church.....mostly older folks......and some younger one's....not too many middle aged people.....
I know! I started writing this article nearly two weeks ago! I simply could not recall my exacting reason for needing spiritual leading. Taking my time to wait, it all came rushing back to me.I am pleased you feel my article accomplished its goal! That's exciting to know!
(Hint: I inserted my personal reason in the article. Did you locate it? I won't reveal it!)
Good life! And, so good for you.
Your spiritual life is a story worth sharing a bit, I am sure. You must have doubted a bit during those 'chasing tale' dark days. Tell us a story, but do not get moved into the family 'doghouse'!! Emphasis on the spiritual side of it ——on second thought: Share what you wish. Call it:
A Moment on TAP!
Shoot!....A moment on TAP.........I wouldn't know where to begin......so many parties, tailgating, crazy hot women galore.......oh those were the days...I swore I would never get married.......that being said.....it left me unfulfilled.......that changed when I met my wife at a party...go figure.).......I swear.....I still remember that evening.... like it was yesterday......Her room mate invited me to the party........the first time I laid eyes on her......Wow! Beautiful and Smart......she probably saved me from a life of sin and an increasingly meager relationship with God.....God rescued me by giving me my wife.......I doubt that I would be living this great life without her in it........
Well that is more than enough SAP from TAP.......These stories are not good for my Tough Guy Persona......LOL!
Stay tough guy! Just this morning I was chatting with Enoch about the indomitable strength, devotion, and love a man gets when he marries a virtuous woman. As an observer for the past 25 years, I can attest to what these eyes have taken stock of: Women who hang in there with their guys through the tough times; women who figuratively heave men up on their shoulders and cross The Finish Line; women who can not take the pain of abuse or ridiculous circumstances any longer, who dry up their tears, steel their resolve, and take The Final Step.
I have seen a great many happenings through my window on life. So, I can feel the conviction in your words!
Well, that was because you asked:
The teacher in me likes to back up what I say with facts.. and I thought you might find them interesting, too.
Well, it's not a virtually old set of statistics. I saw 'upbringing versus nurture' going back to the 70's and then the cells hurriedly become trendy. "2 percent of the U.S. population": In 2013. And, of that number how many of us dared to hold hands in public, fall into each others arms in public, and kiss in public during the 'early years'? Where the rubber met the road: friction sometimes happened. And word of mouth carried the day! There has been a whole lot of meaningful and important change-talking and actions-that has occurred to bring 90 plus percent of Straight America to ease up and free up their brethren. No doubt. It is a big deal.
Cal,
I think that part of our differences in perception might be where we live. Being a New Yorker, I remember the Stonewall Riots, and saw how quickly things changed here after that. By the time I was a young adult, I remember seeing gay couples walking hand in hand.
I'd like to address a this:
Don't you get lonely? I know you said to TAP that you are not.. but you seem very social.
Also you said to TAP:
I applaud that decision. Nothing can be more heartbreaking than when a woman falls in love with a gay man. Yes, they can be friends for life after the marriage breaks up, but that was not what she expected her life to be about.
Metropolitan cities understood, this country has roughly 20,000 cities in which anybody can be accosted for flouting, during the day and night! Of course, commonsense tells us to 'go with the flow.' For instance, in Hollywood, CA there is room for everyone. San Francisco, CA too!
" Don't you get lonely?"
Perrie, that is a really fair question and I can relate to the spirit in which you ask. I sometimes wonder why I am not lonely. I apologize for the lead in to my reply, but here goes:
I Corinthians 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
So you see "comfort" is a work added to us as needed too. I am not lonely, even when I am alone. You have written about your overall opinion of Saul's writings, but Apostle Paul figures prominently in the Faith 'realm.' I am in a community where my passion does not overcome me. Funny true, sometimes I laugh to myself as I think is this what it feels like to be "Kept" or "Frigid."
Seriously, I am enjoying my journey. . . . What does cause a disturbance in me is this: People in the Church who do not let other people come to their own path into faith, but instead setup physical inconveniences and roadblocks in their lifepaths. That I can not abide, and speak out against everywhere these days.
"You seem very social."
I am very social. I love people.
You know,. . . yesterday, while I was getting car service, in the courtesy lounge this show was on television: The Robert Irvine Show (The CW). This will emphasize and simultaneously speak volumes to your statement above. You will be affirmed in your concern, but the outcome is hopeless.
Now, can we discuss that segment, please!
"When People Know Better, They Do Better." In The Robert Irvine Show (CW) segment, listen up for these words!
Cal,
First of all, being on the downlow is very common in the black community, where homosexuality is very frowned upon, so what I found refreshing about this story, is that his mom was so accepting at the end. Personally, I think it's awful for the women involved with such men. It is a double dose of deceit.
Yes, when people know better they do better, but more often, fear is the bigger motivator. I can understand that, since as we read her often, being gay is not fully accepted.
And since this is "The One About Faith", I must point out that faith has often played a role in why people are afraid to come out, since the OT is often used as a reason to persecute gays (Leviticus especially), it also expressly prohibits bigotry of any sort. This presents with quite some contradictions. The fact that some are fixated on the negative has given the gay community a very hard time.
Moms are great, aiin't they? Moma pressed all the right buttons here. And, what is more we can see Marcus, the man, is "mopping" his head from a worse case of nerves during the most stressful scenes for the two women! "Pookie" has messed this up, big-time! Even worse, he brought his love ones before a studio-network audience. One of the worst things about this, the man asks his fiancee and his mother to be real with him in a reality television production. What? Really?
It is a double dose of deceit. "Quadruple," deceit even. Tanisha has two young children! Marcus has been masquerading around in her and their lives for three years, promising more. . . .
I am by nature a conscientious person. I do all I can to not hurt or damage other people, animals, and things. Of course, once coming to faith, it was Paul, again who made an impact on my philosophy:
Early on, as a person of faith, even though not in a church, I decided that I would not play around with a woman's emotion or life - no matter what others thought about my single state of being! Of course, people ask me about this aspect at times. What is even more interesting is sometimes people press in to ask why this "nice man" (me) doesn't have a wife and kids! My reply (pause-reflect-respond): "No comment!" HA!
A contradiction? Or, reconciliation? Christians are taught that not every sin should end it death! (Example: The woman caught in adultery—guilty under the Law.) It is said Jesus told his disciples that you should forgive your brother 70 times 7, or as often as God forgives! Why? Because, God may have plans for an individual who looks hopeless today—tomorrow!
Since it is impossible for mankind to know the wish of God regarding a life, better to allow that life to continue to grow in wisdom as we each do.
If you get a chance to read Captain John Newton's, Thoughts Upon the African Slave Trade, please do so. It is a wealth of information about the transport methods and activities involved in relocating slaves from an actual slaver. Newton speaks in the first-person. It is only 50 pages total. I could use only a tiny 'slice' for this blog. It's down and dirty. Once you realize how Captain Newton turned out a better man for having gone through those experiences he describes, it 'goes down' easier, nevertheless.
What a sad story, if it's true. I simply can't understand people who are so immoral that they can't manage to behave properly unless they think there's some evil boogeyman out there who will torture them forever if they don't worship it, or who will answer all their prayers if they behave properly (while still torturing everyone else).
If you're truly moral, you don't need threats or promises in order to behave. You simply do it because it's the right thing to do. It's not rocket science, and no gods are required. Follow the golden rule (which far predates Christianity), follow the Wiccan rede (do as ye will, and it harm none) - basically, do your best to treat other people well, try your best not to hurt anyone. Who is truly so immoral that they can't manage that without coercion?
Katrix, hi! You phrased this pretty craftily. ". . . some evil boogeyman. . . ." That's an odd opening to begin an unbiased discussion.
That's a term I'm very accustomed to, coming from you. It means you were blinded by logic, and had no decent comeback, so you tried to resort to bad insults.
Immoral according to what? To be immoral is to not conform to a standard. Thus, it is presumed John Newton felt strongly that he was nonconformist to his own conscience. Lots of people feel this way in life, too. Jesus refers to it as something lost and something found.
If you can't treat other people properly without threats or promises from some god, that's immoral. You like to dance around the lines of actual logic - what part of "I can't act morally if I'm not being threatened by some god" do you not understand as being a bad thing?
To be immoral is to treat others badly, in my book. If your religious beliefs lead you to treat others .. or YOURSELF .. badly, I hope you seek and find something better in your life, or explore and maybe find a less evil god to worship, one who doesn't consider you to be a piece of shit. Because you're not a piece of shit .. you're a pretty decent human being, and you deserve happiness, and sexual pleasure, and emotional fulfillment, and not eternal torture from some evil god.
You do not get to set the standard for other people by using your "book," do you? Thus, both Mr. Newton, Mr. Foreman, and myself use a different guide of our own choosing as the standard. Your "book" ought to allow us to do this, no?
You do not have to agree with it, indeed it is clear you disagree, and it still can be just okay. Furthermore, Lots of people walk away from one standard to join, or form, another new standard.
I don't have "a book" - I have morals and ethics. No book required. Logic, kindness, ethics, and morality are all I need. Treat others well, no need to suck up to an evil being who will torture me if I don't give it the adulation it requires - which no god worthy of worship would require. Don't you think a real god would be above such petty human, animal, emotions such as jealousy and the need for revenge? Your god sounds like Donald Trump, as described in the bible - with better hair.
I can absolutely claim that a book which claims that selling rape victims to their rapists, selling young girls to old men in marriage, a genocidal god murdering thousands of firstborns because he was pissed at a pharaoh, is acceptable - is an immoral book. A book that tells parents to have their children stoned by the village if they lie is immoral. I wish you would truly read your bible, and think about what it says.
I don't need a god to know what morals are. The gods humans invent in their image are immoral, and seem to epitomize the worst of the human emotions. People wrote these stories to help them deal with their own emotions and feelings, not because any gods exist.
If you want this as your standard, a god that you think wants you to fear it, one that you thinks hates you for who you are, that's up to you. I choose a more moral standard.
Actually, you do have a book. Though, I was playing off your words just now. Everything you wrote there derives out of your "book" and your impressions. You have your perspective and you do not recognize that others have their perceptive. You have been "passengering" this bias against God and the Bible around ever since our early discussions. Please do not let it, hatred, overwhelm you. As a debater, you should be able to see the positive as often as you suggest I see the negative. Stand back and look at the larger picture: In this article, John Newton and George Foreman both removed themselves from separate experiences of life void of the Judeo-Christian or New Testament Christianity onto paths encompassing ministry/ies and life-long faith. In other words, these men, explained their experiences in stories from both sides - the natural and the spiritual. Their choices were certainly informed and reasoned.
Oh, please. Your story is about immoral men who somehow only managed to behave like decent human beings when they ran into hardships and "found" your god. It's a lame attempt at converting others to your faith. In the larger picture of this article, these men both had delusions ... and were not capable of being decent without them, according to their own words.
You call that a wonderful thing - I think it's pretty disgusting, that they'd need to find some god before they could act like decent people. Their choices were not reasoned - thinking you had a crown of thorns, or wounds from a crucifixion when you weren't crucified or crowned with throns, is rational thought? Not in the least. These men found delusions as a crutch and used them as such for the rest of their lives. It's understandable. It's just sad that their morals weren't good enough for them to behave without their delusions.
We all get that, in your mind, you can't be a decent human without faith in a god who you think hates you, to which you can never measure up. It's a masochistic viewpoint, and is so sad. I disagree, as I've said before - I think you seem like a pretty decent man. It's a shame that you have to try to preach to the rest of us, to try to convince us that we're equally pieces of shit, merely by being human and sexual beings, so you can bring us down to the level of sinner you've been brainwashed into believing about yourself. Rather than working on realizing that you're not a piece of shit, you're a good human being with flaws and good points, and you shouldn't feel guilty about anything you do unless it harms another living being or our planet, you want to preach at us, and convince us to hate as well.
Do not let your hatred of believers overwhelm you. Your vicious attempt to attack, diminish, and "dispatch" another's truth has no effect on reality. And katrix, i disapprove of your coming in here and 'talking' like a fool. Do you get that?
I find that men, who have harmed others throughout their lives, often use religion as a tool to try to make their victims "forgive" them so the abusers won't be alone in their old age. Usually, the victims are women, children and family - the most vulnerable people in the abuser's acquaintance. The victims should not be burdened with having to spend their lives interacting and/or taking care of the men who have abused them.
about failures, both these men have lives, indeed I
as well, of successes!
There's that persecution complex again.
ATTENTION! On my blog and articles, no one will be persecuted, 'hijacked,' 'roasted,' ' taken for a ride,' or ganged up on. No Adverse Abuse of Commenters allowed. If you can accept basic morals of community - STAY. If you can not abide a standard - Sashay Away.
Unfounded accusations are abusive.
A point I have made for years. Nobody will accept my challenge to provide THE moral standard - objective morality. People speak as though it exists but nobody can deliver it. Is this not something that should give one pause?
So yes indeed ... immoral according to what exactly.
(Katrix does not hate believers - not even close. Ask her about her family.)
People can intellectually disagree with others without hating them. Speaking now for myself, I happily coexist with friends and family who, as a group, are high 9x% believers. I accept the power of religious indoctrination and the comfort that religious belief brings people. So I do not hate them - not in the least. I am saddened that so many cannot break free of this incredibly effective system we call 'religion', but I am quite capable of treating a person per their individual nature regardless of religious beliefs. ( Note that none in my circle cause harm. I have a different view of religious terrorists / murderers / bigots.)
For example, you and I have disagreed for years on almost everything religious / spiritual, but personally I think you are a decent and likable person.
Why are you asking me? You and I have disagreed on almost everything religious / spiritual for years. Isn't it you who argues against one objective standard? Or, am I mistaken, TiG?
Yes, I challenge everyone to deliver the objective morality that is claimed to exist.
I asked you why that does not give you pause. It should. You cannot deliver THE objective morality you claim exists. How is it that you do not see the problem?
I am sorry you do not see anything worthy in this article itself "as is" to discuss; from its approach to men turning from lives they considered a lower grade of individual natural man to a higher level of individual spiritual man displaying faith and/or ministry. On the grounds that over the years experience has taught - trying to fight an objective standard you and I agree on is futile - I cannot accept your challenge.
I challenge your assumption that "spiritual" people are of a "higher level". Back it up.
I would even say that such an assumption is an example of religious prejudice.
Calbab, you asked me a direct question and I answered. Complaining that I answered your question is quite a bit over the top, right?
You cannot accept my challenge to show me the objective morality that you insist exists?? How can anyone insist that objective morality exists if they cannot even point to it? If one cannot even locate objective morality then one cannot possibly know how objective morality guides one's behavior.
IMPASSE.
Emphatically.
Certainly true. Ironically your comment (quoted) exposes the logical problem at hand.
If an objective standard must be agreed upon by two human beings then how could it possibly be objective morality? (Answer: it cannot.) The absolute best a human being can do is (while kidding himself) declare something to be objective morality. The declaration alone makes it subjective morality.
No means no, TiG. It does not mean, "yes" in this case. Stop 'raping' this so-called exchange we're not having.
Now, using logic is "raping?" I expect a lack of logic from calbab, but the use of the term rape in this way, merely because he's totally losing an argument from an unbiased, logical perspective, is just disgusting. Ask anyone who's ever been raped.
Horrible and immoral.
Not sure what to make of the 'rape' response other than recognize that the question of objective morality is apparently off limits.
I called my Mom's former priest tonight, who I love (in CO .. from when she was a deacon, before she moved closer to me) and he's going to find someone to give her communion each week as a shut-in, as she did for others when she was a deacon, and so I can try to keep her faith going as her dementia prevents her from wanting to go to church. I'm having to work hard to keep her interested in her faith. But yeah, I hate Christians
What part of the CoC do you not get here?
Such a good Christian. I spent a half hour tonight talking to my Mom's former priest in CO, in the church where she was a deacon, in the town where she was a chaplain, to find out if he could get someone to bring her communion each week as a shut-in, so I can try to keep her faith going as she has dementia. I would take her to church every Sunday if she wanted to go, but she just doesn't want to get out much at age 86. So, I'm making sure she can get communion and some prayers every week. The priest would probably say that I'm being a better Christian than you, and for good reason. You like to talk but not walk the faith, from what your comments say. I don't share your faith, but I walk it every day. And yet you scorn me.
IMPASSE.
Coming Soon! A new blog article on AGNOSTICISM. My hope is many NT'alkers will drop by!
**This thread has a topic for discussion: Faith, and some peripheral subject matters to sustain interest.It is intended for people of faith, questioning faith, or denying faith.**
sounds interesting
Thank you! I would love to read another NT's perspective. How about sharing yours?
*snert* you might want to write something. Your compassion and humanity and sense of equality might actually get through to calbab and others who hate all non-Christians.
My Conservative Christian Brothers and Sisters: Do You Exist in the Realm of Faith? Your voices are missing from my blog!
Grace and peace to all the sick, lame, and disabled shut-ins. Especially those in the household of Faith. We have made it this far by faith, and we shall continue on our journey!
Care to share your story of coming to Faith and life in the Realm of Faith?
Let's Have A Discussion About Faith!
Calbab, there are churches much more accepting of homosexuality. They tend to focus more on Christ, who said nothing about it at all, rather than the OT and Paul.
Yeah. Matters are much different today than a while ago. Personally, I do not have an all-consuming sense of urgency now. I am older, wiser, and definitely more settled. (Smile.)
Sandy, candidly-speaking, I will share that having grown up with twenty-seven books of the New Testament, I am not so easily persuaded to just return to red-letter words of Jesus in the Gospels. As it is with "returning" to any earlier state, one has to "count the cost" of understanding matters in their totality, and not according to personal need. Having settled matters satisfactorily, afterwards some new application (approach) can take shape. I have discovered much "new information" on this twenty-plus years path I am traveling making it very interesting—as I age.
Incidentally, got anything about this article or anything about your experiences to share? This does not have to be all about me. (Smile.)
It seems to me that if a religion disregards one's needs, then maybe one ought to consider that the religion itself is in the wrong. A loving God would surely accept people as he himself made them, rather than make them in order to reject them.
My reply is a borrowed statement which comes from a new article i have undertaken to write.
I was waiting for your reply, before continuing. However, I am curious as to where you consider a loving God ought to set the objective standard. Is anything/everything sexual permissible?
I don't know about an objective standard, but no, certainly every sexual practice ought not to be permissible. Some are harmful, either physically or emotionally. Rape, forced marriage (which is the same as rape), and sex with children, regardless of "consent", ought, of course, to be prohibited. I also would consider adultery to be wrong, as it causes emotional harm. Promiscuity brings with it the risk of STIs, so while I don't see it as a moral problem, it has the potential to be a public health problem.
You are requesting the standard that at best applies to everybody, or at least applies to the majority, no?
I guess I'm aiming for the standard which best takes into account the fact that humans are sexual beings, and therefore doesn't require the squelching of those feelings, which can be unhealthy.
1. Should the standard be:
A. Anything sexual is allowable in marriage ("for the marriage bed is undefiled.")?
B. A level of healthy self-discipline maintained inside and outside of marriage?
2. Any condition placed on sexuality is effectively going to "damage" somebody. When conditions are left off sexuality likely chaos will ensue.
1. I would say "B".
2. I disagree that any limitations would "damage" somebody. Not being able to override another person's bodily autonomy is not damaging; it prevents damage. Those who are unable to commit to monogamy have the option of not entering a monogamous relationship.
The issue of consent is conditional and based on a set of non-sexual factors, especially for children. Besides, overriding and not overriding another person's autonomy is a type of conditional. And, "every sexual practice" which is deemed not permissible is conditional. Therefore, if a loving human can have conditionals and prohibitions, how much more so a loving God?
How is a loving God harmed by anyone's sexual practices? Most conditions set by humans on sexual practices are based on the concepts of consent and non-maleficence (doing no harm).
If you believe God created us as sexual beings, with sexual desires, then why would a loving God demand that we only indulge those desires within a very narrow set of parameters, possibly counter to the desires some people have? Why create the feelings, if we are only to deny them?
This is an interesting question. I slept on it, and today still cannot choose to articulate an answer. Let me rather clumsily say that body parts have "best practices" and mankind is "ingenious" in its use of its parts. Some of the sexual desires people turn on to are at once startling and 'broken' in an open group setting. But, this answer is only a partial one. (I am not feeling so hot the last couple of days, "under the weather.")
"Best practices" biologically, or otherwise?
I hope you feel better soon.
Thank you, my Sister. I seem to be doing a little better now that I got up, and walked around outside in the sun!
Biologically, I'd guess. I am trying delicately to connect my thoughts back to what a "loving" Higher Being might, I emphasize 'might,' be after. As you may have read, I have explained, I have looked at homosexuality from both sides now. Having explicitly participated and having abstained for just as long a time. [Maybe a bit still groggy "upstairs," so forgive me if I swing a little wide here. Still, let me know if I do!]
What I feel strongly about is this: Every legal citizen (meaning those who have taken their social issue to court and had it decided upon) should be allowed to live in peace in this land. The organized groups in this country should not attempt to quell or hinder other properly constituted citizens. Instead, make room on the platform for newly minted "admissions." There is plenty good room for everybody!
Hi, Cal. Just wanted to leave a comment to let you know I read your article and most of the comments.
I appreciate that you won't find a woman to ease your loneliness if loneliness becomes a problem. Thank-you for accepting who you are. Denying your sexuality and then entering into a relationship with someone who thinks you are straight when you are in fact gay is a terrible thing to do. A woman I work with was married to a gay man and he had the gall to blame her for turning him gay. He said that she was fat and ugly and that's why he started sleeping with men.
I think that man should be horsewhipped.
Anyway, my point is, that he hurt more people than just himself by denying his nature. Thank-you again for not doing that.
TG, you comment is 'huge.' Thank you for such an understanding comment and realization that it is important for me, us all, not to sacrifice others to our passions. When I say I love people, all people, I mean I really do from my heart. It costs the homosexual man and homosexual woman deeply and dearly who never seeks the privilege to father or mother a child of their own. For the faith (trust) involved with the opposite adult - a heterosexual man or woman should not have their life 'mission' of a life-long relationship broken up by a homosexual's facade. It just messes up lives (partner and child/ren) something serious, in my opinion.
You're a good man, Cal.
TG, I was thinking about you just now and I wanted to point out the power of faith which changed a slave trader into a "good" man. I am providing a link to a 50 page (short manuscript) about John Newton as a practicing slaver trader. (The short online book really drives the point home-I left plenty out up above due to a need for brevity.)
In the book, Newton tells his story from his POV. Moreover, it becomes clear when, how, and why John left the business of chattel slavery. I leave the reading in your capable hands.
Thought s Upon the African Slave Trade
https://archive.org/details/thoughtsuponafri00newt/page/n1 (This is a function link!)