Citizen Kane-473667

BLM Meets Confederate Flag

  
By:  Citizen Kane-473667  •  Politics  •  3 weeks ago  •  154 comments

BLM Meets Confederate Flag

Black Lives Matter Banner.  The Confederate Battle Flag.

You wouldn't think that these two have anything in common, and yet both are perfect illustrations of a common problem; when people assign their bias to another persons cherished symbol. The parallels are actually pretty similar. We are all well aware of the sins that have been committed under both of these banners. They both have presided over burning, looting, and murder. Both sides waving them have tried repeatedly to deny any acceptance of the atrocities committed by those who use them for  purposes other than how they are generally regarded within their group who display these banners on a regular basis as a whole, to little avail.

Let's start with the Black Lives Matter banner. This iconic banner had its birth after the acquittal of George Zimmerman in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin in 2013 by a citizen neighborhood watch commander as a hashtag on social media, #blacklivesmatter, but didn't become a banner until the protests following the killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson MO in 2013 and Eric Garner in New York City by police. The ensuing violence being committed by participants under the BLM banner was praised by some of the more extreme supporters, and decried by the majority of the movements members. These acts of violence continue today with looting, burning, murder, and attacks upon both innocent people because of the color of their skin, and upon police officers regardless of the color of their skin. These acts have preempted the original message of the banners intent.  This violence has caused many to turn their backs upon the movement and has caused fear to take the place of sympathy in the hearts and minds of many Americans. Has it served its purpose of raising awareness of institutional racism? It most certainly has. As a matter of fact, that awareness has now reached a fevered peak that it is resulting in the defacing, destruction, and removal of all things that are connected in any way with racism and slavery. This has resulted in the defacing of war memorials for fallen soldiers in National cemeteries, and even calls for the removal of statues of the nations Founding Fathers. State flags have been redesigned to remove content that some people deem offensive; namely the Stars and Bars of the Virginia Confederate Battle Flag, which brings us to our second iconic banner...

We all know where the Virginia Confederate Battle Flag came from. There is no debate on its origins in the Civil War, nor on its use during the commission of atrocities upon Black Americans. It continues today to be representative of a racist agenda for some extremist segments of our society. The question we must face though is whether or not today's view of the Confederacy is the same as what it originally represented--or at least what it has come to represent today to most Americans. Recent polling has confirmed that the Confederate Flag represents the South to most of us. There are basically two sides of the debate over what it represents, some say it was all about the promulgation of slavery, while others claim it was a war against Federal overreach. The truth is, it was about both. No matter which side of the debate you take, the pure and simple truth is that both reasons are intertwined indelibly in that conflict. What the Confederate flag came to represent though, is the Southern Region of the United States as the aforementioned poll confirms. This indelible association came once again through the use of racism with Jim Crow Laws and the States passing them using the Confederate Flag (in conjunction with the American Flag) as a backdrop on their political stages to pander to the fear and racism of their constituents. It was also used by the opponents of racism as a symbol to proclaim the South as a hotbed of racism while ignoring their own. Needless to say, those raised in the South have come to see the Confederate Battle Flag as more of a symbol of where they were born and raised than as a symbol of racism. To them, the Confederate Flag symbolizes standing up for a perceived injustice, being a rebel against authority, and hot summer days with cool nights. This is what the South represents to them; this is what the Rebel Flag as it is more commonly known down here, represents to us and apparently, most of the Nation.It has become a symbol of Rebellion, despite what the injustice and the politics that rebellion was built upon. It is recognized all over the world as The Rebel Flag.

Does this sound familiar? Two iconic symbols whose meanings to their adherents are being besmirched by the atrocities committed by the extremist among them??? We can only hope that the BLM Banner does not become what its opponents have deemed it; a symbol of racism, hate and violence just as the Confederate Flag has become to its opponents. It would be a horrible loss of its message and a sad thing if all of those whose fight for equality became guilty by association to the point where tributes to them, tributes to those who inspired them, and memorials to their fallen were torn down, banished from public view, and vandalized because of the bad apples within.

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Citizen Kane-473667
1  author  Citizen Kane-473667    3 weeks ago

This has appeared on a meme entitled "The most confused man on earth".

?u=https%3A%2F%2Fd.justpo.st%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F2016%2F08%2F01%2Fthe-most-confused-man-ever-black-guy-holding-confederate-flag-and-sign-saying-police-lives-matter-1470028628.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

I don't agree with that assessment.

I would say he has embraced the good of both and is ignoring the bad. Why can't the rest of us learn from this man?

 
 
 
It Is ME
1.1  It Is ME  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @1    3 weeks ago
I would say he has embraced the good of both and is ignoring the bad. Why can't the rest of us learn from this man?

"Politics" won't allow it !

"Politics" is the "Elephant" in the room.....ALWAYS !

"Politicians" are the "People" too ! jrSmiley_103_smiley_image.jpg

 
 
 
JohnRussell
1.1.1  JohnRussell  replied to  It Is ME @1.1    3 weeks ago

Whatever "good" there is  to be associated with the confederate flag is completely drowned out by the bad. 

Completely. The only people who would say it is ok to fly the confederate flag are people who would have sympathies to some degree with the Confederate States Of America. And that is not acceptable. 

 
 
 
It Is ME
1.1.2  It Is ME  replied to  JohnRussell @1.1.1    3 weeks ago
Whatever "good" there is  to be associated with the confederate flag is completely drowned out by the bad. 

"American Flag" ?

Apparently….not much good came from that "Cloth" either..... huh. jrSmiley_89_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
JohnRussell
1.1.3  JohnRussell  replied to  It Is ME @1.1.2    3 weeks ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Suz
1.2  Suz  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @1    3 weeks ago

Are we sure that photo hasn't been edited?

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
1.2.1  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Suz @1.2    3 weeks ago

Nope. It actually looks photoshopped to me.

 
 
 
devangelical
1.3  devangelical  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @1    2 weeks ago

the only thing the display of the white supremacist flag proves is that not enough confederates took dirt naps in the civil war.

 
 
 
Texan1211
1.3.1  Texan1211  replied to  devangelical @1.3    2 weeks ago

Yeah, those damn Democrats turned out to be a little tougher to beat than first thought.

But we got as many as we could!

Of course, everyone else knows that Confederates don't have anything to do with it today.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
1.3.2  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  devangelical @1.3    2 weeks ago

That is your opinion. You're entitled to it just like my opinion is that anyone trying to tell others that they have no right to their opinion is an asshole who doesn't earn the right to be an American citizen. In this country, we don't like Tyrants.

 
 
 
devangelical
1.3.3  devangelical  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @1.3.2    2 weeks ago

confederates stopped being americans when they fired the first shot.

 
 
 
bugsy
1.3.4  bugsy  replied to  devangelical @1.3.3    2 weeks ago
confederates stopped being americans

So democrats are not Americans?

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
2  author  Citizen Kane-473667    3 weeks ago

For those that don't know the story of H.K. Edgerton pictured in the main article :

H. K. Edgerton (born February 18, 1948) is an African-American activist for Southern heritage and an African-American member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans . [1] He is often given a prominent place at rallies for the Confederate flag . A former president of the Asheville, North Carolina , chapter of the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People), he is on the board of the Southern Legal Resource Center .
 
 
 
devangelical
3  devangelical    3 weeks ago

flying that white supremacist rag is no different than flying the union jack, the flag of spain, the nazi swastka, the japanese rising sun flag, the italian fascist flag, the north korean flag, the north vietnamese flag, the taliban flag, the iraq flag, the al qaida flag, or any of the other flags of a defeated enemy of the USA. the only place that rag belongs is in museums and history books. it's public display is an insult to every black person and US veteran.

 
 
 
bugsy
3.1  bugsy  replied to  devangelical @3    3 weeks ago
flying that white supremacist rag is no different than flying the union jack, the flag of spain, the nazi swastka, the japanese rising sun flag, the italian fascist flag, the north korean flag, the north vietnamese flag, the taliban flag, the iraq flag, the al qaida flag,

What's ironic is that most liberals look at the American flag the exact same way.

 
 
 
devangelical
3.1.1  devangelical  replied to  bugsy @3.1    2 weeks ago

hilarious coming from people that place party loyalty before the US Constitution in word and deed...

 
 
 
bugsy
3.1.2  bugsy  replied to  devangelical @3.1.1    2 weeks ago

Really? Hmmmm..

A short look at democrat history...

From 1776 to 1865 (not 1619  because there was no USA), democrats were the party of slavery.

1861 to 1865- democrats fought a civil war trying to protect the institution of slavery

1865- democrats in Texas had to forcefully release their slaves because they failed to do so 2 years earlier after the Emancipation Proclamation signed by a Republican president, leading to what is known today as Juneteenth.

1865 to 1964- democrats essentially held blacks as indentured slaves in the south, blocking efforts for them to vote and become full citizens of the country, preferring the 3/5th designation.

1964- democrats in Congress filibustered the Civil Rights Act of 1864 for 75 days, and if not for Republicans, the act would never have passed.

1864- Democrat president Johnson said democrats will "have ni66@rs voting democrat for the next 200 years. So far, unfortunately, he has been right. Thankfully many blacks have woken up to the atrocities of the democrat party. These blacks are now known as "tokens" and "Uncle Toms" by other democrats.

1964- today- democrats, especially the white ones, keep blacks on the democrat plantation by making promises to them they never keep, renewing those promises every 2 and 4 years

1970s to today- democrats take control of many American cities, leading them to utter despair and destruction over the years, Blacks within these cities are discriminated against by members of these democrat led city's police departments.

the last several years- democrats loot, burn and destroy public and private property when something within THEIR cities does not go the way they like it.

today- democrats tearing down statues of THEIR ancestors.

None of this can be disputed.

 
 
 
Dulay
3.1.3  Dulay  replied to  bugsy @3.1.2    2 weeks ago
1964- today- democrats, especially the white ones, keep blacks on the democrat plantation by making promises to them they never keep, renewing those promises every 2 and 4 years

Translation: African Americans are too stupid to realize they are being duped. 

1970s to today- democrats take control of many American cities, leading them to utter despair and destruction over the years, Blacks within these cities are discriminated against by members of these democrat led city's police departments.

Translation: African Americans vote overwhelmingly in support to Democratic leadership and the GOP be mad...

the last several years- democrats loot, burn and destroy public and private property when something within THEIR cities does not go the way they like it.

Reality: a SMALL minority on the left get out of hand, the GOP enable the rape and pillaging of the natural resources of the nation at will and call it capitalism. 

today- democrats tearing down statues of THEIR ancestors.

Today Republicans desperately want to be identified with the party of Lincoln while being the antithesis of Lincoln's party. 

None of this can be disputed.

Just did. 

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
3.1.4  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Dulay @3.1.3    2 weeks ago
Just did.

Did what? You certainly didn't prove him wrong. All you did was voice an unsubstantiated opinion.

Opinions and assholes have something in common. Everyone has one, but not everyone wants to hear them. Especially when the opinions are uneducated and bigoted.

 
 
 
Dulay
3.1.5  Dulay  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @3.1.4    2 weeks ago
Did what?

Reading is fundamental CK. 

You certainly didn't prove him wrong. All you did was voice an unsubstantiated opinion.

Dispute is not the same as refute. Look it up. 

Opinions and assholes have something in common. Everyone has one, but not everyone wants to hear them. Especially when the opinions are uneducated and bigoted.

Your comment is applicable to all opinions expressed here, including your own. 

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
3.1.6  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Dulay @3.1.5    2 weeks ago
Your comment is applicable to all opinions expressed here, including your own.

I guess you missed the important part of the statement. Let me help you:

Opinions and assholes have something in common. Everyone has one, but not everyone wants to hear them. Especially when the opinions are uneducated and bigoted.

Learn the actual history of the conflicts between the States, the SCOTUS, and the Federal Government leading up to the Civil War and the challenges they were making to the Bill of Rights, and you might be able to consider yourself educated. Get rid of the propensity to close your mind to facts that contradict your preconceived notions based upon emotion rather than actual Facts, and you might be able to consider yourself to not be bigoted. Until you do BOTH of those things, my statement stands unchallenged by Fact.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
3.2  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  devangelical @3    2 weeks ago
it's public display is an insult to every black person and US veteran

Says who? Certainly not the two pictured above, or those pictured having fun under them, supporting them, or waving them.

What the fuck gives YOU the right to tell them what to think? Are they too stupid to decide for themselves what it means to them? There are literally hundreds of thousands of veterans--Black and White, who have lived in the South and flown that flag with pride in what it represents to them--The South! To them it represents a slower pace of life, hot summer days, and cool nights filled with stars. Mint Juleps and Pat O'Brien's Hurricanes. Sandy beaches and a warm Gulf to swim in. It means Bar-b-ques and cold beer.

It means we aren't worried what the Racist Yankees think when they come down here. Don't like it? Then get the fuck out! We didn't ask you to come down here, and we certainly don't need you telling us how WE should feel.

 
 
 
devangelical
3.2.1  devangelical  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @3.2    2 weeks ago

racist domestic terrorists that couldn't grasp the full meaning of the US Constitution lost a civil war and their weak minded descendants still can't get over it. tough shit. if some people want their heritage to be represented by the symbol of white supremacy in the USA, they should get used to the verbal derision it creates.

 
 
 
devangelical
3.2.2  devangelical  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @3.2    2 weeks ago
we aren't worried what the Racist Yankees think

I was born in the south. luckily I escaped before the racist heritage indoctrination began.

 
 
 
bugsy
3.2.3  bugsy  replied to  devangelical @3.2.2    2 weeks ago

I live in the south today. There are far more blacks in the south than there are blacks in northern states. Every day blacks and whites and hispanics and Asians wake up, greet each other in the streets, eat in the same restaurants, and attend the same parties.

Blacks and whites in democrat cities are burning, looting and destroying their cites...

And tearing down statues of their white ancestors.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
3.2.4  JohnRussell  replied to  bugsy @3.2.3    2 weeks ago
I live in the south today. There are far more blacks in the south than there are blacks in northern states. Every day blacks and whites and hispanics and Asians wake up, greet each other in the streets, eat in the same restaurants, and attend the same parties.

Thats nice. What does it have to do with the confederate flag? 

 
 
 
bugsy
3.2.5  bugsy  replied to  JohnRussell @3.2.4    2 weeks ago

The fact is you libs try and portray the south as a bunch of bigoted racists wrapping themselves around the Confederate flag.

[deleted]

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
3.2.6  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  devangelical @3.2.2    2 weeks ago
luckily I escaped before the racist heritage indoctrination began

To where? The North?

Oops!

 
 
 
devangelical
3.2.7  devangelical  replied to  bugsy @3.2.3    2 weeks ago
And tearing down statues of their white ancestors.

it shouldn't offend you so much then...

 
 
 
bugsy
3.2.8  bugsy  replied to  devangelical @3.2.7    2 weeks ago
it shouldn't offend you so much then...

Where did it say it offended me?

Liberal tactics of trying to get me to defend something I never said does not work on me.

Fail

 
 
 
JohnRussell
3.2.9  JohnRussell  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @3.2    2 weeks ago

You guys make about as much sense as a 2 hour Trump rally speech. 

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
3.2.10  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  JohnRussell @3.2.9    2 weeks ago
You guys make about as much sense as a 2 hour Trump rally speech. 

Got anything better than a Personal Attack? Never mind. I know better than to ask...

 
 
 
Raven Wing
3.2.11  Raven Wing  replied to  devangelical @3.2.2    2 weeks ago
I was born in the south.

I was born in Calif and raised in the South. I lived in every state in the South except Florida. I'm very familiar with Southern racism. 

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
4  Dismayed Patriot    3 weeks ago
"You wouldn't think that these two have anything in common, and yet both are perfect illustrations of a common problem; when people assign their bias to another persons cherished symbol. The parallels are actually pretty similar. We are all well aware of the sins that have been committed under both of these banners. They both have presided over burning, looting, and murder. Both sides waving them have tried repeatedly to deny any acceptance of the atrocities committed by those who use them for  purposes other than how they are generally regarded within their group who display these banners on a regular basis as a whole, to little avail."

What a total crock of shit. You really can't get more ignorant, more callous, more stupid than to try and equate a recent movement for civil rights that has ZERO blood on their hands to the confederacy that is literally dripping with the blood of innocents. What a dishonest and dishonorable piece of trash seed. Those reading and liking it are proving just how deep in denial they are and truly shows how much further the civil rights movement has to go, because this kind of racist bullshit needs to be dug up and burned root and branch.

 
 
 
It Is ME
4.1  It Is ME  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @4    3 weeks ago
You really can't get more ignorant, more callous, more stupid than to try and equate a recent movement for civil rights that has ZERO blood on their hands

Ummmmm…… The "Thirteen" that have been KILLED during "Hurricane Floyd" so far......don't "Matter" ? jrSmiley_97_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
4.1.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  It Is ME @4.1    3 weeks ago
The "Thirteen" that have been KILLED during "Hurricane Floyd" so far......don't "Matter" ?

What utter bullshit trying to just pin disparate deaths from a variety of origins on a single group.

There are 5 dead dallas police officers who would call bullshit on this.

What a sick and utter useless lie you keep repeating. That guy had nothing to do with the BLM movement, he was not a member, they had nothing to do with him and obviously in NO WAY sanctioned his attack. Trying to paint them with those cops deaths is disgusting and disingenuous. If BLM were responsible for their deaths then every right wing conservative is responsible for the 9 black Americans Dylan roof gunned down and the other nearly 100 Americans killed by right wing extremists in 2018.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/01/homegrown-terrorists-2018-were-almost-all-right-wing/581284/

Some may hate that black Americans are asking to be considered as valuable as white lives. Some may despise the messengers who remind them that black lives are currently undervalued by this racially unjust justice system. Some may seethe with hatred for those who remind them that they would be losing their ever loving minds if the same treatment that black Americans experience on a daily basis were being applied to white Americans. These folk, I'm sure, have some valid excuse for being total pieces of shit, like perhaps being dropped frequently as a child or having chronic traumatic encephalopathy from playing foot ball without a helmet when they were young, so we just have to treat them like the brain damaged babies they are.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
4.1.2  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @4.1.1    2 weeks ago
if the same treatment that black Americans experience on a daily basis were being applied to white Americans

Funny how statistics show that they are and that it is more of a case of how poor people are treated in general. Twice as many whites being killed by cops compared to the fact that blacks which compromise only 17% of the U.S. population are committing more crimes than whites. You would think it would be the other way around. Guess all those white criminals left their White Privilege cards at home.

 
 
 
It Is ME
4.1.3  It Is ME  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @4.1.1    2 weeks ago
What utter bullshit trying to just pin disparate deaths from a variety of origins on a single group.

Kinda like what Protestors are doing to the Police ? jrSmiley_88_smiley_image.gif

What Utter Bullshit huh. jrSmiley_98_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
loki12
4.2  loki12  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @4    3 weeks ago
that has ZERO blood on their hands

There are 5 dead dallas police officers who would call bullshit on this.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
4.2.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  loki12 @4.2    3 weeks ago
There are 5 dead dallas police officers who would call bullshit on this.

Don't conservatives claim to be honest? You realize that is exactly the kind of lie that is part of the problem don't you?

Micah Johnson had no connections to BLM, he was an Army Reserve Afghan War veteran and was angry over police shootings of black men. Just because he said he was "upset by BLM" that does not in any way connect them to these officers deaths. If you do that then it's equally fair to say that the El Paso shooter was a member of the GOP as he was repeating Trump's rhetoric about Hispanics in America being an "invasion" which the shooter repeated numerous times in his manifesto.

So no, BLM has no blood on their hands and to equate them to confederates is not only a disgusting lie, it exposes the motives of those making the claim as sick worthless confederate pieces of shit themselves.

 
 
 
loki12
4.2.2  loki12  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @4.2.1    3 weeks ago

Hysterical, upset by police killing black men so he targets white police officers at a BLM rally and there is no connection? That is as amazing, if only the TDS suffers had the same thought process when blaming their failures in life on trump.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
4.2.3  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  loki12 @4.2.2    3 weeks ago
and there is no connection?

No, there was no connection. Was country music at fault when the guy opened fire on a country music concert? Was trump responsible for those people shot in El Paso? BLM didn't tell him to do what he did, Micah Johnson was not in any way affiliated with BLM. So why are those cops deaths supposed to be on their hands?

Besides such a pointless debate, even if that guy was an active member of BLM and they directed him to go on a killing spree, even then it wouldn't compare to the hundreds of thousands of lives taken by worthless treasonous confederates flying their flag of death, their flag of white supremacy, their flag of hate as they fought for their desired "right" to own other humans as cattle. To compare the two is beyond disgusting, it exposes the sour bitter cancer that festers under the skin of virtually all bigots.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
4.2.4  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @4.2.3    3 weeks ago
To compare the two is beyond disgusting, it exposes the sour bitter cancer that festers under the skin of virtually all bigots.

You can try to deny it all you want, but the sad fact is that more people have been hurt financially, physically, and killed in the last 6 years by those protesting and rioting under the BLM banner than have been under the Virginia Confederate Battle Flag in the last 50. Both have been used by Racist assholes to further their agendas. So tell me again how there is no correlation?

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
4.2.5  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @4.2.1    3 weeks ago
So no, BLM has no blood on their hands

Yeah, right.....

And that is just one report on cops killed by BLM supporters. Guess you've missed all the others of private citizens being killed or beaten nearly to death.

 
 
 
devangelical
4.2.6  devangelical  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @4.2.5    2 weeks ago

guess you missed the DHS report on who was really responsible for most of the violence...

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
4.2.7  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  devangelical @4.2.6    2 weeks ago
guess you missed the DHS report

This one?

So now you want to distance yourself from your BLM supporters that are extremist?

I'll grant you that right if you grant that same right to others who ask for it. Sound fair???

 
 
 
devangelical
4.2.8  devangelical  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @4.2.7    2 weeks ago

my DHS info source is much better than some alt-news birther media rag

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
4.2.9  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  devangelical @4.2.8    2 weeks ago
my DHS info source is much better than some alt-news birther media rag

Does it say something different? I wouldn't know since you haven't posted any links to it. Do you need instructions on how to do so? I think TiG has a "How To" article in the Help Section if you need it.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5  JohnRussell    3 weeks ago

I have been reading and watching videos about "The Lost Cause" when I can lately.  Pretty interesting topic. 

The excuse for the confederate flag seems to be that it means "good times" to some people, having a few beers at a picnic down by the lake with the rebel flag propped up on the back of the pick up truck. 

So if somehow the Nazi swastika somehow became a symbol of good times , at the beer hall on a crisp autumn night maybe, then the German people would have to decide what the swastika really means to them?

I find this logic lacking. 

The confederate flag represented the confederacy. By its own description, the confederacy was the world's first white supremacist nation.  The confederate flag should never be flown as a symbol of pride in anything, even one's pride in their geographical region. 

No one flies a "Great Lakes" flag while they drive around town on a nice evening. 

Who cares about "the south" ? It is a region of the country, not a mythical independent nation. 

 
 
 
MonsterMash
5.1  MonsterMash  replied to  JohnRussell @5    3 weeks ago
Who cares about "the south" ?

Politicians from both parties come election time.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
5.2  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  JohnRussell @5    3 weeks ago
The confederate flag represented the confederacy.

Little history lesson for you. 

The Confederate BATTLE FLAG that many ASSUME is the confederate flag is nothing more than what the military calls a Guidon.  A flag or banner that represents a military unit / activity. 

This guidon was designed by the military of the Confederate States of America during the civil war as a flag / banner to help identify Confederate forces from Union forces.  

The actual " Confederate Flag " (and there were many) looks more like several existing state flags like Mississippi, Georgia, Alabama and North Carolina.  But, there is never much outrage over the state flags.  

What is represents for you isn't necessarily what it represents to all.  

 
 
 
devangelical
5.2.1  devangelical  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @5.2    3 weeks ago

the only confederate flag that mattered then and now was the last flag the confederates flew, the white flag of surrender. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5.2.2  JohnRussell  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @5.2    3 weeks ago

Confederate flag     - 2nd national flag of the Confederate States Of America (blue cross with white stars on red background , with all white field)

800

Confederate flag ( Trump rally) 2016

12fd-trump_web10-articleLarge.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale

I have no idea what your point is, except you seem to want to defend the confederate flag. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5.2.3  JohnRussell  replied to  JohnRussell @5.2.2    3 weeks ago
2nd national flag of the Confederate States Of America
210px-Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_%281863%E2%80%931865%29.svg.png
The second national flag of the Confederate States of America
Name "The Stainless Banner" [a]
Use National flag   23px-FIAV_historical.svg.png
Proportion 1:2 [b]
Adopted May 1, 1863
 
 
 
Split Personality
5.2.4  Split Personality  replied to  JohnRussell @5.2.3    3 weeks ago

There were 4 versions of the first CSA national flag which closely resembled Betsy Ross's  flag.

The second CSA national flag had 2 versions, the white stainless and the white with bar to alleviate confusion about surrendering...

There were 11 guidons from the different states  and the collective 10 states had 15 official flags.

After Manassas CSA General Beauregard, having witnessed several massive friendly fire incidents

insisted on a unique war flag to allay the confusion and the "X" pattern fit the bill.

From the original guidon, the Virginia battle flag grew and infested many unit and state flags

because it was unique.

The Jamacan flag is the only other example of an "X" flag. 

(The UK Union Jack has one in the background behind the primary cross.)

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5.2.5  JohnRussell  replied to  JohnRussell @5.2.3    3 weeks ago

ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA

During the   American Civil War   (1861–65), the   Confederate States of America   began to use its first flag, the Stars and Bars, on March 5, 1861. After the First Battle of Bull Run, when similarity between the Stars and Bars and the   Union   Stars and Stripes   made it difficult for troops to distinguish friend from foe, Confederate commanders petitioned for a new flag. In November 1861 the first Confederate Battle Flags were issued. Although variations of the Battle Flag pattern were numerous and widespread, the most-common design, known as the “Southern Cross,” featured a blue saltire (diagonal cross), trimmed with white, with 13 white stars—representing the 11 states of the Confederacy plus   Missouri   and   Kentucky —on a field of red. The Battle Flag was square, rather than rectangular, and its dimensions varied depending on branch of service, ranging from 48 inches (120 cm) across for the infantry to 30 inches (76 cm) across for cavalry.

Confederate Battle Flag The “Southern Cross” version of the Confederate Battle Flag.


The design of the Stars and Bars varied over the following two years. On May 1, 1863, the Confederacy adopted its first official national flag, often called the Stainless Banner. That design integrated the Battle Flag as a canton on a field of white. Over time, however, the design drew criticism because the display of a broad field of white could be misinterpreted as a declaration of surrender. A modification of that design was adopted on March 4, 1865, about a month before the end of the war. The so-called Blood Stained Banner added a vertical red stripe to the 1863 design.

Stainless Banner The Stainless Banner, first official national flag of the Confederate States of America.

After the war the Confederate Battle Flag would persist as the most-recognizable symbol of the Confederate States of America. The state   flag of Mississippi   integrated the Battle Flag as its canton, while the   flag of Georgia , in its various permutations, included elements of both the Battle Flag and the Stars and Bars. Beginning in the latter part of the 20th century, many groups in the South challenged the practice of flying the Confederate Battle Flag on public buildings, including some state capitols. Proponents of the tradition argued that the flag recalled Southern heritage and wartime sacrifice, whereas opponents saw it as a symbol of   racism   and   slavery , inappropriate for official display.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5.2.6  JohnRussell  replied to  Split Personality @5.2.4    3 weeks ago

I know there were various iterations of the confederate flags. Originally the confederate flag was this

flag-Confederate-States-of-America-design-times-March-1861.jpg

but battlefield commanders complained it was causing confusion because in the fog of war it too closely resembled the union flag.  So what we know as the confederate battle flag was designed and used. 

version-Southern-Cross-Confederate-Battle-Flag.jpg

Eventually this design was also used in the national flag of the CSA. 

What I dont get is why these lost causers keep denying that the battle flag IS the commonly accepted confederate flag. There is no question about this so what is all the bullshit for. 

 
 
 
Ender
5.2.7  Ender  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @5.2    3 weeks ago
But, there is never much outrage over the state flags

Think again. In this state there has been controversy over the state flag for decades. Including lawsuits, bills in the statehouse, cities and towns refusing to fly the flag, protests, etc.

There are rallies in my county about it this weekend.

 
 
 
Split Personality
5.2.8  Split Personality  replied to  Ender @5.2.7    3 weeks ago

There should be...it is a combination of Beauregard's guidon/penant with the first CSA bars

320

Two middle fingers to the Union........

 
 
 
Split Personality
5.2.9  Split Personality  replied to  JohnRussell @5.2.6    3 weeks ago

I know.  I have contributed to and corrected the Wiki pages when I lived in SC.

 
 
 
Ender
5.2.10  Ender  replied to  Split Personality @5.2.8    3 weeks ago

I can only shake my head when people call it history. It wasn't even the states first flag.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
5.2.11  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Split Personality @5.2.8    3 weeks ago
Two middle fingers to the Union........

At the time of their creation, that was definitely the predominate feeling of the people who created it!

Considering the Congressional Approval Rating, I don't think much has changed...

 
 
 
Ender
5.2.12  Ender  replied to  Split Personality @5.2.8    2 weeks ago

Oh, I forgot to add, the flag you showed was never officially adopted as the state flag. So the state has really only had one official flag, the Magnolia flag.

512

Although it was not widely used or displayed during the Civil War, the Magnolia Flag remained the official state flag of Mississippi until 1865. In the aftermath of the Civil War, a constitutional convention assembled in Jackson, Mississippi, on August 14, 1865, to revoke and repeal many of the actions taken by the Secession Convention of 1861. On August 22, the convention declared the Ordinance of Secession null and void and repealed several other ordinances. Among those repealed was the ordinance adopting a coat of arms and a state flag. This action left Mississippi without an official flag.

.

On February 7, 1894, Governor Stone, a Confederate veteran and former colonel of the Second Mississippi Infantry Regiment, signed into law the bill creating the state flag. 16

.

The emblem adopted in 1894 remained the official state flag only until 1906 when a legal oversight resulted in the repeal of the law establishing it. In 1906, Mississippi adopted a revised code that included a provision that repealed all general laws that were not reenacted by the legislature or brought forward in the new code.

For some reason, which contemporary documents and records do not reveal, the compilers of the new code did not bring forward the law that created an official state flag and a coat of arms. Because of this oversight, which surely must have been inadvertent, the state of Mississippi does not have an official state flag.

http://www.mshistorynow.mdah.ms.gov/articles/105/flags-over-

So according to laws adopted, the Magnolia flag was the only official flag for the state. Still to this day we don't by law have one.

We have also flown under French, British and Spanish flags.

I don't see people calling it history and flying one of those.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
5.2.13  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  JohnRussell @5.2.2    2 weeks ago
I have no idea what your point is

Of course you don't.  When you are sos that happens.  

except you seem to want to defend the confederate flag. 

Not defending it.  Just have a different view of it.

 
 
 
Split Personality
5.2.14  Split Personality  replied to  JohnRussell @5.2.6    2 weeks ago

I am pretty sure that's what I already said, and that the square guidon you posted grew into a full sized flag.

?

Did I miss something?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5.2.15  JohnRussell  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @5.2.13    2 weeks ago

The flag that Trump supporters hung at his rally is the same flag image that became part of the official flag of the CSA.  Same thing. 

This is not confusing. It is a racist flag. We can absolutely know that because the CSA was a white supremacist nation. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
5.2.16  Split Personality  replied to  Ender @5.2.12    2 weeks ago
So according to laws adopted, the Magnolia flag was the only official flag for the state. Still to this day we don't by law have one.

Legalese?

I can see that the state had two official flags both of which were done away with by legislation.

Who needs legislation?

Order a MS state flag online and you will get the flag that flies on the capitol in Jackson.

It is the "defacto" flag of MS.

800

I did not know of the 1906 technicality, hopefully they can rectify that and restore the Magnolia flag.

I love Magnolia, planted one for my daughter in SC 27 years ago.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
5.2.17  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  JohnRussell @5.2.15    2 weeks ago
We can absolutely know that because the CSA was a white supremacist nation. 

Pretty much the entire Nation was at the time, but I imagine you already knew that didn't you? If not, I can certainly educate you on it.

 
 
 
Ender
5.2.18  Ender  replied to  Split Personality @5.2.16    2 weeks ago

Our Governor tater tot will not answer any questions about it. Will not say if he supports it or not. Will only say it is up to the people.

I kind of like the Magnolia flag but the blue bonnet part is from that whole Florida territory thing.

Years ago when it was up for a vote there was a rendering for the new flag. Would have been a Magnolia flower. Can't find a pic of it right now.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5.2.19  JohnRussell  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @5.2.17    2 weeks ago

If you dont know the difference between the USA and the CSA you are beyond education. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
5.2.20  Split Personality  replied to  Ender @5.2.18    2 weeks ago
but the blue bonnet part is from that whole Florida territory thing.

and Texas usurped it! once or twice, lol.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
5.2.21  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  JohnRussell @5.2.19    2 weeks ago
If you dont know the difference between the USA and the CSA you are beyond education.

It is easy to see by the responses through out this conversation exactly who is lacking in education; and it certainly isn't me! I guess it pays to actually do research before accepting talking points as gospel. I suggest some people should try it some time...

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5.2.22  JohnRussell  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @5.2.21    2 weeks ago

I really dont bother with people who have unwarrentedly high opinions of themselves. 

For starters, get these two books

==================================================================

Apostles of Disunion: Southern Secession Commissioners and the Causes of the Civil War

Book by Charles B. Dew
Charles Dew’s Apostles of Disunion has established itself as a modern classic and an indispensable account of the Southern states’ secession from the Union. Addressing topics still hotly debated among historians and the public at large more than a cent…

AND

The Myth of the Lost Cause: Why the South Fought the Civil ...

The Myth of the Lost Cause by Edward Bonekemper Back in the 1980s, I read John Keegan’s “The Masks of Command.”   I was stunned to read Keegan describe U.S. Grant as the only military genius to come out of the American Civil War.

===========================================================================================

Maybe you can learn something while you are still young enough. 
 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
5.2.23  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  JohnRussell @5.2.22    2 weeks ago
I really dont bother with people who have unwarrentedly  (??? ROFLMAO) high opinions of themselves. 

Then how do you get dressed in the mornings?

BTW, Spellcheck should be your best friend.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
5.2.24  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  JohnRussell @5.2.15    2 weeks ago
The flag that Trump supporters hung at his rally is the same flag image that became part of the official flag of the CSA.  Same thing. 

Did you miss where I stated "one of many"?  Maybe you should go back and re-read my comment.

This is not confusing. It is a racist flag. We can absolutely know that because the CSA was a white supremacist nation. 

I'm sorry that you feel it's a racist flag.  I see it for what it was initially designed for.  As I stated in 5.2, What is represents for you isn't necessarily what it represents to all.  That doesn't make anybody wrong, it's merely a difference of opinion.  

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5.2.25  JohnRussell  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @5.2.23    2 weeks ago

I like to make up words occasionally , its a small hobby I have. 

 
 
 
GregTx
5.2.26  GregTx  replied to  JohnRussell @5.2.25    2 weeks ago

No doubt. I would imagine that making up words and being a bigot occupy the majority of your time leaving little room for your most pressing concern...the cost of diapers.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5.2.27  JohnRussell  replied to  GregTx @5.2.26    2 weeks ago

You got me Greg. I'm a bigot against people who wave the confederate flag. How could you tell? 

 
 
 
GregTx
5.3  GregTx  replied to  JohnRussell @5    3 weeks ago

All the Southerners that I know still seem to be partial to it.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5.3.1  JohnRussell  replied to  GregTx @5.3    3 weeks ago

Only racists would defend the flying of this flag in 2020. 

 
 
 
GregTx
5.3.2  GregTx  replied to  JohnRussell @5.3.1    3 weeks ago

I guess I should have quoted, sorry. My post was meant as a reply to your query "who cares about the south"

13 of the following off topic, slap fighting comments were deleted & the tickets were reversed SP

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
6  Dismayed Patriot    3 weeks ago
"We all know where the Virginia Confederate Battle Flag came from. There is no debate on its origins in the Civil War, nor on its use during the commission of atrocities upon Black Americans. It continues today to be representative of a racist agenda for some extremist segments of our society."

True.

"The question we must face though is whether or not today's view of the Confederacy is the same as what it originally represented--or at least what it has come to represent today to most Americans."

No. There is no need for that question, the answer is already known as you pointed out, there "is no debate on its origins in the Civil War, nor on its use during atrocities".

"The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution." "Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." - Vice President of the Confederacy Alexander Stephens March 22, 1861

"There are basically two sides of the debate over what it represents, some say it was all about the promulgation of slavery, while others claim it was a war against Federal overreach."

No. There is one side which are historical facts. If you want to add another side of "irrational half wits commiserating over their ancestors losing a war but still harboring hate for minorities" then you'll need to file that with the government as a new political party.

The truth is, it was about both.

Nope. The lie is "It's both" which comes from slimy sycophant apologists for confederate bigots, most likely their descendants trying to fabricate some cover for their racist ancestors. As their Vice President said at the time "African slavery as it exists among us" "was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution".

"This indelible association came once again through the use of racism with Jim Crow Laws and the States passing them using the Confederate Flag (in conjunction with the American Flag) as a backdrop on their political stages to pander to the fear and racism of their constituents"

Yes. You do know what "indelible" means right?

Indelible: adjective - making marks that cannot be removed.

"Needless to say, those raised in the South have come to see the Confederate Battle Flag as more of a symbol of where they were born and raised than as a symbol of racism. To them, the Confederate Flag symbolizes standing up for a perceived injustice, being a rebel against authority, and hot summer days with cool nights."

I guess there were no black Americans raised in the South or their opinions just don't matter because they're not "real" people anyway, right? "Those raised in the south", as if you're going to speak for them all, what utter despicable horseshit.

"Does this sound familiar? Two iconic symbols whose meanings to their adherents are being besmirched by the atrocities committed by the extremist among them???"

No, not at all. The two couldn't be more different, and the fact that you can't see that glaring obvious fact is just sad. Trying to equate a peaceful movement trying to bring attention to the blatant disparities in how our justice system disproportionally and unjustly treats black Americans and a symbol of hate, division and white supremacy is just more sick than I could ever have imagined. It's mind boggling stupid, it's mentally deranged.

"We can only hope that the BLM Banner does not become what its opponents have deemed it; a symbol of racism, hate and violence just as the Confederate Flag has become to its opponents."

Oh please, stop with the theatrics. No one even knows what a "BLM" banner looks like because I've seen dozens of different signs making that statement and none looked the same. "We can only hope", as if. I've no doubt those gleefully clapping at this sick seed are hoping everyday they can smear BLM with something, anything! "Smear them with those cops deaths ! Yeah, that's it! Even though there was NO TIE WHATSOEVER to BLM as a group, lets lie about them, that will help push towards our bullshit whiny piece of shit white supremacists narrative! Yeah".

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @6    3 weeks ago

Funny, it doesn't seem to be the South whining as much as it seems to be Democrats and Liberals. Their feelings are being hurt by someone telling them to take their Racism bullshit and shove it up their ass. Sucks for them to find out that the overplayed race card won't save their snowflake feelings from the facts unfolding in front of their drooling faces, if they can define the Many  by the acts of the Few, then they too will be judged by the same measure.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
6.1.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1    3 weeks ago

Your attempt to rehabilitate the confederate flag didnt work.  So sorry. 

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.2  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.1    3 weeks ago

No rehabing of the flag needed. It doesn't feel anything  because it's an inanimate object. Just as a cross represents a way of life to a Christian,  death to a vampire,  and an object of ridicule to an atheist,  it is the choice made by the observer.  They have no right to tell anyone else how they must feel. Anyone who tries to should go fuck themselves.  They are narcissist who think they are so much better than everyone else that only their opinion matters.  Fuck those pieces of  shit assholes!

 
 
 
JohnRussell
6.1.3  JohnRussell  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.2    3 weeks ago
No rehabing of the flag needed. It doesn't feel anything  because it's an inanimate object. Just as a cross represents a way of life to a Christian,  death to a vampire,  and an object of ridicule to an atheist,  it is the choice made by the observer.  They have no right to tell anyone else how they must feel. Anyone who tries to should go fuck themselves. 

Something got under your skin, eh? 

The constitution of the Confederate States of America made it impossible for any member state to ever unilaterally end slavery in that state, so African slavery would exist as long as the Confederate States of America existed. 

The "confederate flag" , also known as the battle flag, became part of the official national flag of the Confederate States of America in 1863. 

Stainless-Banner-Confederate-States-of-America.jpg

On what POSSIBLE basis do you think it is appropriate for citizens of the United States to fly that flag with pride in 2020? 

Because it makes southerners feel good about themselves?   rofl. 

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.4  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.3    2 weeks ago
Because it makes southerners feel good about themselves?

YEP!  What more reason does anyone need? It's kind of like a Team South mascot flag. No wonder Yankees hate it so much!

 
 
 
JohnRussell
6.1.5  JohnRussell  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.4    2 weeks ago
It's kind of like a Team South mascot flag

Why is there a Team South?    Is there a Team East, West, or North? 

The only claim to fame the south has is that its upper classes used to own slaves. 

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.6  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.5    2 weeks ago
The only claim to fame the south has is that its upper classes used to own slaves

The only ones claiming that are those that are ignorant of history, geography, science, economics, music, and well--just about everything...except maybe on how to pound a keyboard to fill a screen with ignorance that is. I'll bet they are experts on that!

 
 
 
JohnRussell
6.1.7  JohnRussell  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.6    2 weeks ago

Well, there are accomplished people from the south and there are achievements in the south, but no more than in the east west or north of the United States. You dont see people wanting to fly a flag to celebrate the Great Lakes region. 

It's not my problem if southerners want to try and fetishize themselves. Do it without the racist flag. 

 
 
 
bugsy
6.1.8  bugsy  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.5    2 weeks ago
its upper classes used to own slaves. 

Whom were overwhelmingly democrats

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.9  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.7    2 weeks ago
Do it without the racist flag

I'm sorry but I've never heard a Flag speak. Have you? If so, you might want to have that checked out...

 
 
 
MUVA
6.1.10  MUVA  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.7    2 weeks ago

Do you want the government to stop people from flying the confederate flag?

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
6.1.11  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @6.1.4    2 weeks ago
YEP!  What more reason does anyone need? It's kind of like a Team South mascot flag.

So I take it black Southerns who feel differently just don't count? The white Southerners haven't seen them as real citizens anyway so why listen to them, right? Only care about how the white bigots feel about the disgusting symbol of racism, hate and treason, let's not listen to the victims and those who suffered under that slimy banner. What wonderful white people you have down there, demanding everyone listen to them but refusing to listen to anyone else, demanding their "feelings" be heard but refusing to listen to the feelings of their victims or of the oppressed. I'm not surprised, that's who they are, but it's still sad to see it so blatantly expressed as you have done in this seed.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
6.1.12  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @6.1.11    2 weeks ago
So I take it black Southerns who feel differently just don't count?

Sure they do! As a minority opinion , and even that isn't unanimous amongst them!

Only care about how the white bigots feel about the disgusting symbol of racism, hate and treason

Bigot and Racist are not interchangeable. Take for instance the fact that your opinion is bigoted by the very definition of the word:

  • One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
  • n.
    . A hypocritical professor of religion; a hypocrite; also, a superstitious adherent of religion.
  • n.
    A person who is obstinately and unreasonably wedded to a particular religious or other creed, opinion , practice, or ritual; a person who is illiberally attached to any opinion , system of belief, or party organization; an intolerant dogmatist .

Just for clarity I want  to admit that 17% of the population is Black. 28% of those Blacks see the Confederate flag as a symbol of Racism. I wonder how many of those 12.4% of the population who view it as Racist live outside of the South? I also wonder why their opinion counts more than those Blacks who actually live here???

What wonderful white people you have down there, demanding everyone listen to them but refusing to listen to anyone else, demanding their "feelings" be heard but refusing to listen to the feelings of their victims or of the oppressed.

Last time I looked there were no surviving former slaves. Got any links? Those are the only "victims" of slavery. Are you talking about victims of Racism? I hope not, because that is a can of worms you best leave unopened. You might be embarrassed by what you don't know about it.

I'm not surprised, that's who they are, but it's still sad to see it so blatantly expressed as you have done in this seed.

Seed? I'm not surprised that you failed to recognize an original work from a "seed".

 
 
 
Texan1211
7  Texan1211    2 weeks ago

Gee, I wonder when the folks will begin to get worked up over the fact that for decades, slavery flourished under the American flag--long before there even was a Confederacy.

When will they call for the American flag to be done away with?

 
 
 
XDm9mm
7.1  XDm9mm  replied to  Texan1211 @7    2 weeks ago
When will they call for the American flag to be done away with?

They already are.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
7.2  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Texan1211 @7    2 weeks ago

They won't because then they would have to admit that ending slavery in the South was a war tactic only, not the cause celeb of the Civil War; which is why Slavery didn't officially end in the North until AFTER the Civil War ended.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
7.2.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @7.2    2 weeks ago
They won't because then they would have to admit that ending slavery in the South was a war tactic only,

The south seceded because Abraham Lincoln had won the 1860 presidential election. Lincoln was known to be against the expansion of slavery. The end of slavery was not an afterthought to the war, it was the reason it happened. 

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
7.2.2  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  JohnRussell @7.2.1    2 weeks ago
The end of slavery was not an afterthought to the war, it was the reason it happened.

One of many actually. Get educated here.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
7.2.3  JohnRussell  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @7.2.2    2 weeks ago

You linked something that makes my case. Thanks

What led to the outbreak of the bloodiest conflict in the history of North America?

A common explanation is that the Civil War was fought over the moral issue of slavery.

In fact, it was the economics of slavery and political control of that system that was central to the conflict.

A key issue was states' rights.

The Southern states wanted to assert their authority over the federal government so they could abolish federal laws they didn't support, especially laws interfering with the South's right to keep slaves and take them wherever they wished.

Another factor was territorial expansion.

The South wished to take slavery into the western territories, while the North was committed to keeping them open to white labor alone.

Meanwhile, the newly formed Republican party, whose members were strongly opposed to the westward expansion of slavery into new states, was gaining prominence.

The election of a Republican, Abraham Lincoln, as President in 1860 sealed the deal. His victory, without a single Southern electoral vote, was a clear signal to the Southern states that they had lost all influence.

Feeling excluded from the political system, they turned to the only alternative they believed was left to them: secession, a political decision that led directly to war. 
 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
7.2.4  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  JohnRussell @7.2.3    2 weeks ago
You linked something that makes my case. Thanks

As if any of them would do any serious research that might conflict with their preconceived views and indoctrinated lies from teachers in the South who either weren't allowed to teach facts about the civil war or chose to gloss over the parts that verify the treason and bigotry of their ancestors.

"African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution." "Our new government is founded" " its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. - Vice President of the Confederacy Alexander Stephens

Even when you shove their noses in their own shit they still refuse to acknowledge it and claim they smell roses. They continue this repulsive lie that the civil war wasn't "really" about slavery and that it was just some "war tactic" which is utter bullshit.

There's stupid and there's ignorance. Ignorance is just being uninformed, not knowing the facts so you can fix ignorance. Stupid is having the facts in front of your face but still refusing to accept them because you don't want to or your brain is incapable of understanding. Sadly, you can't fix stupid, and these confederate flag defenders are just plain stupid.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
7.2.5  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  JohnRussell @7.2.3    2 weeks ago

Let me help you out a little:

You linked something that makes my case. Thanks
What led to the outbreak of the bloodiest conflict in the history of North America?

A common explanation is that the Civil War was fought over the moral issue of slavery.

In fact, it was the economics of slavery and political control of that system that was central to the conflict.

A key issue was states' rights.

The Southern states wanted to assert their authority over the federal government so they could abolish federal laws they didn't support, especially laws interfering with the South's right to keep slaves and take them wherever they wished.

Another factor was territorial expansion.

The South wished to take slavery into the western territories, while the North was committed to keeping them open to white labor alone.

Meanwhile, the newly formed Republican party, whose members were strongly opposed to the westward expansion of slavery into new states, was gaining prominence.

The election of a Republican, Abraham Lincoln, as President in 1860 sealed the deal. His victory, without a single Southern electoral vote, was a clear signal to the Southern states that they had lost all influence.

Feeling excluded from the political system, they turned to the only alternative they believed was left to them: secession, a political decision that led directly to war. 

Comprehension is key. I believe I already warned you there were many factors involved. The Slavery Issue just brought it all to a head. Just to test  your actual knowledge of why economics of slavery were such an important issue at the time, explain to me why the north wanted to abolish it in the Southern States and prevent it's spread westward, but not in the North.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
7.2.6  JohnRussell  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @7.2.5    2 weeks ago
I believe I already warned you there were many factors involved. The Slavery Issue just brought it all to a head.

Yes there were other things involved, like state's rights. The southern states wanted the right to continue to own slaves, and have the northern states co-operate by sending escaped slaves back south. 

Would you like to see the declarations of secession where the various southern states say the disposition of slavery was the thing that led them to secession? 

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
7.2.7  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @7.2.4    2 weeks ago
They continue this repulsive lie that the civil war wasn't "really" about slavery and that it was just some "war tactic" which is utter bullshit.

Stupidity is not researching a topic before debating it:

The document did not exist without controversy, nor were all Northern citizens initially in favor of the freedom it promised.  Lincoln was cognizant of the number of those who would view such an act with disfavor and worded the freedom of the qualified slaves in terms of “military necessity,” not equality.  The Proclamation would do harm to the rebellious states by encouraging runaways and depleting their domestic labor force.  In addition, Lincoln promised, “Such persons of suitable condition, will be received into the armed service of the United States to garrison forts, positions, stations, and other places, and to man vessels of all sorts in said service.” [1] However, framing the Proclamation in such a way merely minimized the dissent that ensued; by characterizing the measure as a military tactic, Lincoln in effect shifted the purpose of the war.  The Union cause was now tied directly to the elimination of slavery.  This sparked an initial backlash among many troops who fought for the sake of reunion alone, not the freedom of slaves.  In his book What They Fought For , James M. McPherson explains, “Whereas a tacit consensus united Confederate soldiers in support of ‘southern institutions,’ including slavery, a bitter and explicit disagreement about emancipation divided northern soldiers.”  By analyzing a number of letters written by Union soldiers, McPherson identifies a general shift in opinion toward the importance of emancipation over the course of the war.  Before the Proclamation, slavery was a topic seldom discussed.  Following its issuance, the troops became more vocal on the subject, but a majority did not emerge in favor or against the abolition of slavery; the men remained staunchly divided, some even deserted.  However, as the war ensued, the men began to overwhelmingly adopt Lincoln’s logic from the proclamation; the abolition of slavery “was the only way to win the war and preserve the Union.” [2]

To quote Lincoln and his view of Blacks:

During his famous debates with Sen. Stephen Douglas, Lincoln explained to the crowd: “I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.” Lincoln was no different than most white males, North and South, at the time. He was a white supremacist.

Your real education has begun....

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
7.2.8  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  JohnRussell @7.2.6    2 weeks ago
Would you like to see the declarations of secession where the various southern states say the disposition of slavery was the thing that led them to secession? 

I'd prefer to see the Word Cloud that shows which words were mentioned most often in those succession documents. I could be wrong, but I believe they would have mentioned what was foremost in their minds more often.  Care to share that picture???

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
7.2.9  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @7.2.5    2 weeks ago
especially laws interfering with the South's right to keep slaves and take them wherever they wished.

I wonder why you chose to giant bold type the rest of that sentence but selected nearly the smallest font for this line which helps to understand what the supposed "states rights" complaint was. The South was furious that the Northern States were refusing to accept their proclaimed ownership and were even, God forbid, writing their own laws making it legal to harbor fugitive slaves or did away with the penalties the South tried to force on them. That's right, the south was demanding the North be forced to change their State laws, they were the ones trampling States rights all so they could own humans like cattle. I find it hilarious that your own post proves how fucking wrong you are.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
7.2.10  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @7.2.9    2 weeks ago
I wonder why you chose to giant bold type the rest of that sentence but selected nearly the smallest font for this line

Because JR had already done so while ignoring the rest of the line that I brought to the forefront. Did you miss that?

I find it hilarious that your own post proves how fucking wrong you are.

In order to be wrong I would have to be the fucking idiot who thinks that "it was all about slavery" even after I've been proven fucking wrong!

  • The Civil War was fought solely to preserve the Union.(So stated by Lincoln himself)
  • It wasn't fought to free the slaves. (That came as a military tactic when the North was losing)
  • The Civil War started as a fight over State sovereignty versus Federal Power.(Namely the 10th Amendment vs the Supremacy Clause)
  • The Civil War started over taxation, (specifically export taxes placed upon raw cotton being sold to the rest of the world when the North wanted it for themselves to turn it into finished goods before being sold so they would reap those profits)
  • The Civil War started over the shifting of a balance of power in the Federal government.(The banning of the expansion of slavery in new states)
  • The Civil War started over the opposition to the Federal government taking private property without compensating the owners financially. (Abolition of slavery without paying the owners)

Central to all of this was the slaves, which I have stated time after time as being the linchpin that brought it all to a head. The Civil War was NOT fought to free the slaves, no matter how many idiots think so...

 
 
 
JohnRussell
7.2.11  JohnRussell  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @7.2.10    2 weeks ago

Keep digging CK.  All you are doing is proving our points. 

 
 
 
Dulay
7.2.12  Dulay  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @7.2.7    2 weeks ago
Stupidity is not researching a topic before debating it

Since the topic is the reason for the start of the Civil War in 1861, WHY do you think that posting a link about the 1863 Emancipation Proclamation is relevant? 

To quote Lincoln and his views on blacks

Again, relevance? The topic is the reason for the start of the Civil War, NOT Lincoln's views on blacks. 

Oh and BTFW, you block quoted an article which selectively truncates ONE VERSION of what Lincoln said at that debate. Your link provides a different version, via archive, with a different context. 

Your real education has begun....

That real education seems to begin with illustrating a bias for posting what you think bolsters your ideology. 

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
7.2.13  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @7.2.10    2 weeks ago
The Civil War was NOT fought to free the slaves

No, it was started by worthless treasonous bigoted white Christian conservatives who demanded their right to own humans as cattle and demanded the other States respect that right. When the Northern States stopped respecting the disgusting slave trade, the South attacked. Why are you having such a hard time with facts? Is it because you're so fucking desperate to view the treasonous confederacy in some other light? That you can't accept the many, many, many statements made by confederates of the time PROVING that slavery was not only the "linchpin" but the "cornerstone" that the entire civil war rested upon? By continuing to deny reality you just keep exposing your true agenda, a white washing of the confederacy to make it more appealing today, and the only reason I can think of anyone doing that is because they still secretly support the ideals of the confederacy, the cornerstone of which was "the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." as the Vice President of the confederacy so blatantly and openly admitted.

Even if there was some reasonable requests to be made of the Northern States, do you really want to drink that punch from a punch bowl that has the very real and very slimy turd of slavery floating in it? You're going to selectively scoop out your cup of confederate praise punch even though you've already admitted that slavery was not only in the confederate punch bowl, but was a "linchpin" in your words?

Linchpin: noun - a person or thing vital to an enterprise or organization.

So go ahead, try again, your attempts at deflecting and defending the confederacy are falling as flat as your sad desperate bullshit narrative.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
7.2.14  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Dulay @7.2.12    2 weeks ago
Again, relevance?

Mindset is relevant. Matter of fact, it is arguably the BIGGEST factor in the entire fucking war!

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
7.2.15  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @7.2.13    2 weeks ago
Linchpin: noun - a person or thing vital to an enterprise or organization

Uhm, are you now denying that the slavery issue wasn't what brought all of the grievances with the Federal Government and the States to a head?  Or are you saying the abolishing of slavery doesn't fit the definition of an "enterprise"?

do you really want to drink that punch from a punch bowl that has the very real and very slimy turd of slavery floating in it?

As unsavory a thought as it is, History doesn't give a fuck what you think about actual Facts. Sometimes they are coated in shit and hard to swallow, but they are still Facts. I suppose this is why you have a problem with swallowing them, but I just hold my nose while I ingest and digest the knowledge. You should try it sometimes.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
7.2.16  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @7.2.15    2 weeks ago
I just hold my nose while I ingest

I'm not surprised that some, especially those who desperately try to defend a blatant symbol of racism, are deliberate shit eaters.

are you now denying that the slavery issue wasn't what brought all of the grievances

Only someone seriously lacking in reading comprehension would come to such an obviously wrong conclusion. What I said was:

"many statements made by confederates of the time PROVING that slavery was not only the "linchpin" but the "cornerstone" that the entire civil war rested upon?"

You do understand what "not only" means right? I'll give you a hint, it doesn't mean "is not" or "doesn't apply". 

As my numerous posts point out, "not only" was slavery the "linchpin" and the "cornerstone" on which the civil war rested, without it the civil war would not have happened. The excuses I have heard from some on the right claiming it wasn't really about slavery but about States rights or making some dumb fuck claim like the "Civil war was fought solely to preserve the Union" when anyone with more than half a brain and a smattering of American history education knows the Union didn't start the war, they simply responded after being attacked by treasonous southern bigots who were trying to impose their will on the Northern States and force them to repeal their State laws that removed the penalties the South had tried to impose on anyone harboring runaway slaves.

The South were the ones who were bitterly angry with the North over States rights, the southern States believed they should get to dictate the laws of other States and wanted the federal government to overrule those Northern States authority. They wanted the Northern States to be forced to return what they saw as their goods/property even when they were no longer in their own States.

I really don't know why anyone would continue to defend the indefensible, but I guess in this world it takes all kinds, so no doubt there would be those who just love their racist Southern heritage and the fact that their ancestors fought and killed hundreds of thousands of American soldiers all so they could keep owning other humans as cattle, and many did so flying the confederate flag, a symbol of racism, hate, slavery and ignorance. Oh, and another thing the confederate flag represents, losing. It's the flag of treasonous losers.

The number of stars on a confederate battle flag no doubt represents the average IQ of those still honoring such a vile rag. Sadly, this means they are too stupid to even understand why sane, rational, patriotic Americans would never honor such gross symbol of division and treason.

 
 
 
Dulay
7.2.17  Dulay  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @7.2.14    2 weeks ago
Mindset is relevant. Matter of fact, it is arguably the BIGGEST factor in the entire fucking war!

Yet you've denied the documented mindset of the seceding states. Why? 

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
7.2.18  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @7.2.16    2 weeks ago
The number of stars on a confederate battle flag no doubt represents the average IQ of those still honoring such a vile rag.

I love the fact that the stupidity on display in your posts is a prime example of the ongoing failures of Public Education. Slaves were property. Bought, sold and owned just as any property is today. The fact that they were human and its morally wrong in no way changed that legal definition. Therefore all of these infringements upon the owners of slaves Rights, were infringements on their Property Rights, and the Federal Government was infringing upon the States Rights in regards to regulating ownership of Property by its Citizens. This is where Public Education, and YOU get it wrong. You want to make it about the Rights of the slaves--they had none at the time. Maybe if you actually exchanged something that is one of today's equivalents to slaves, you could better understand the Rights the owners were fighting for. You won't do that however, because then you would be forced to concede that your teachers were idiots at best, or more likely liars pushing an agenda of race baiting bullshit. Keep swallowing the Koolaid if you enjoy the taste so much, it comes from that turd infested punchbowl you referenced in your last post. You may have a harder time identifying it though, as it is all shit and too many have become immune and receptive to its taste.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
7.2.19  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Dulay @7.2.17    2 weeks ago
Yet you've denied the documented mindset of the seceding states. Why?

No I haven't! Their mindset was slaves were inferior beings. This was the predominate belief at the time across the board with very few saying otherwise. It was even supported by "scientific studies" , if you can believe that, lol!

The denial isn't on my end, but on the end of those claiming that this battle was all about freeing a Race held in chains; it wasn't.

 
 
 
Dulay
7.2.20  Dulay  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @7.2.19    2 weeks ago
No I haven't!

Really? 

I'd prefer to see the Word Cloud that shows which words were mentioned most often in those succession documents.

That was you right? As if the word most mentioned has any relevance to the context of the statement. Neither the word slave or slavery would appear in a Word Cloud of the Constitution but we all know that it both are implicit.  

Their mindset was slaves were inferior beings. This was the predominate belief at the time across the board with very few saying otherwise. 

Bullshit. Slavery had been abolished in much of the country and much of the world by the time of the secession of the southern states. 

Oh and BTFW, the 'mindset' was that women were 'inferior beings' but that didn't make them so. 

It was even supported by "scientific studies" , if you can believe that, lol!

So is the flat earth theory. 

The denial isn't on my end, but on the end of those claiming that this battle was all about freeing a Race held in chains; it wasn't.

All one needs do to prove that false is to review what you emphasized in your block quote of John's post.  

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
7.2.21  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @7.2.18    2 weeks ago
You won't do that however, because then you would be forced to concede that your teachers were idiots at best, or more likely liars pushing an agenda of race baiting bullshit.

Only the south was forced to concede they lost, they were losers as was their conservative ideology. My teachers taught facts and reality, not some white washed sugar coated American history where all our white ancestors were some knights in shining armor, even the treasonous losers who attacked our nation.

The fact that they were human and its morally wrong in no way changed that legal definition

I disagree. The fact that they were human made all the difference in the world, the difference between right and wrong. Slavery was wrong no matter how legal it was at the time. Those Northern States passing laws that rejected the fines and other penalties that the Southern States were trying to force on Northern States citizens were perfectly within their right to do so.

You make the claim that as property they should have been returned to their Southern slavers hands. But the fact was that the Northern States citizens weren't keeping them as their own property, they weren't "holding" Southern States property, the South was trying to force Northern citizens to act as police and bounty hunters, to force them to work with slavers under the threat of fines and punishment. That's essentially enslaving the free Northern citizens forcing them to comply and be complicit in the slave trade.

Keep swallowing the Koolaid if you enjoy the taste so much, it comes from that turd infested punchbowl you referenced in your last post

Nice try but I haven't swallowed any sick ideological punch, the only ones with shit dripping from their chins are those ignorantly defending a blatant symbol of slavery, hate and white supremacy.

too many have become immune and receptive to its taste.

While I'm sure that's the way it is with so many confederate defenders, for those of us that don't have our heads shoved up our own asses we can easily smell the shit on confederate bigots teeth every time they open their stupid inbred mouths.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
7.2.22  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @7.2.21    2 weeks ago
the only ones with shit dripping from their chins are those ignorantly defending a blatant symbol of slavery, hate and white supremacy
While I'm sure that's the way it is with so many confederate defenders, for those of us that don't have our heads shoved up our own asses we can easily smell the shit on confederate bigots teeth every time they open their stupid inbred mouths.

Is that the best you have for insults? Is this where we start hurling the "yo Momma" insults??? Ever hear the one "Yo Momma got three titties and wears combat boots to bed"? Had a 12 year old throw that at me when I was in junior high. I told him I wouldn't know because I spent all my time having anal sex with his momma and never made it home to see mine. Started a fist fight in class, which I won, lol! You gotta get better material. I feel your pain though. I know how hard it is to come up with insults off the cuff when you don't have something to guide you.  Okay, not really....but I can imagine your pain if that is any comfort!

Come back when you want to argue facts instead of posting emotional diatribes...

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
7.2.23  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Dulay @7.2.20    2 weeks ago
As if the word most mentioned has any relevance to the context of the statement.

Yes, it does. If I said I detest frogs a hundred times and I said I detest crickets only once, then I would say my repeated statements of frog hatred would be more intense than my hatred of crickets. But don't let common sense cloud your rant by any means...

Slavery had been abolished in much of the country and much of the world by the time of the secession of the southern states.

Slavery might have been, but the feeling of White Supremacy hadn't been which is proven by those self same studies I mentioned which still appeared all the way up until the early 1900's. But don't let stupid little facts get in the way!

So is the flat earth theory. 

Which also deserves a lol!

All one needs do to prove that false is to review what you emphasized in your block quote of John's post

John argued that the war was all about "slavery" and highlights portions of the text to prove his case. I highlighted the portions he excluded to prove him wrong that there were more issues than just slavery that were under consideration at the time.  I guess it sucks that I proved him wrong...for some people!

 
 
 
Dulay
7.2.24  Dulay  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @7.2.23    2 weeks ago
Yes, it does. If I said I detest frogs a hundred times and I said I detest crickets only once, then I would say my repeated statements of frog hatred would be more intense than my hatred of crickets.

The state secession proclamations are documents debated and voted on by legislatures, not your posts CK.

But don't let common sense cloud your rant by any means...

You are the one ranting CK, I am merely calling you on your uninformed comments. 

John argued that the war was all about "slavery" and highlights portions of the text to prove his case.

After reviewing John's comments, I don't see where he ever said the civil war was 'all' about slavery. Care to post the comment number where John said that? 

I highlighted the portions he excluded to prove him wrong that there were more issues than just slavery that were under consideration at the time. 

Actually, what you did was quote the EXACT same content, accentuating different words. As I said, it merely illustrates you bias.  

I guess it sucks that I proved him wrong...for some people!

You didn't prove anyone wrong CK. All you proved is that you read the same content through an opposite ideological lens. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
7.3  JohnRussell  replied to  Texan1211 @7    2 weeks ago

Did the United States end slavery, or did it secede in order to preserve slavery? 

What is with all these dumb questions from "southerners" ? 

 
 
 
bugsy
7.3.1  bugsy  replied to  JohnRussell @7.3    2 weeks ago
What is with all these dumb questions from "southerners" ? 

Says the guy from the city with the most black on black killing in the country, bar none.

Why are you not worried about them?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
7.3.2  JohnRussell  replied to  bugsy @7.3.1    2 weeks ago

Who says I am not worried about them? 

This article is about the confederate flag, not Chicago. 

By the way, Chicago does not have the highest black on black crime rates. "Bar none". 

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
7.3.3  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  JohnRussell @7.3.2    2 weeks ago
Chicago does not have the highest black on black crime rates.

Link????

 
 
 
loki12
7.3.4  loki12  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @7.3.3    2 weeks ago

Expect a percentage bs post, when you have 10 people and 1 kills another you have a 10 percent murder rate, when you have 1 million and 90 thousand kill each other it’s only a 9 percent murder rate, they use this to deflect from the carnage of the lefts failed policies. 

 
 
 
bugsy
7.3.5  bugsy  replied to  JohnRussell @7.3.2    2 weeks ago
Who says I am not worried about them? 

Because you asked "Why all the dumb questions from Southerners".

You are obviously more concerned about what southerners do, and don't care about fellow democrat citizens in your own city knocking each other off in large numbers on a daily basis.

 
 
 
Texan1211
7.3.6  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @7.3    2 weeks ago
Did the United States end slavery, or did it secede in order to preserve slavery?

That is absolutely freaking hilarious! LMAO!

You asked THAT and THEN posted this little gem?

What is with all these dumb questions from "southerners" ? 

I didn't know you were a Southerner. Surprise, surprise!

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
8  Dismayed Patriot    2 weeks ago
"We all know where the Virginia Confederate Battle Flag came from. There is no debate on its origins in the Civil War, nor on its use during the commission of atrocities upon Black Americans. It continues today to be representative of a racist agenda for some extremist segments of our society."

So you admit what the flag is all about.

"Recent polling has confirmed that the Confederate Flag represents the South to most of us. There are basically two sides of the debate over what it represents, some say it was all about the promulgation of slavery, while others claim it was a war against Federal overreach. The truth is, it was about both."

This argument is like saying "Hey, grabbing your dog by the scruff of his neck, holding him down and raping him is sick, disgusting and illegal. But on the other hand in recent polling some said they might find it very pleasurable so there are basically two sides to the debate."

Okay, so there are two sides to the debate, the side of sanity, reason and human morality and the sick disgusting vile side that anyone who chooses proves to the rest of humanity they are beyond hope and should perhaps be locked up or at the bare minimum kept far away from any dogs.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
8.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @8    2 weeks ago

Throughout this "debate" Citizen Kaine has been trying to play word games. He keeps saying that the Civil War was not fought to free the slaves, as if that were a sufficient declaration.

Secession, and the war, were over what was to become of slavery. Whether or not the Union had an announced goal from the beginning to free the slaves is almost immaterial. 

Lincoln ran on a platform of not allowing slavery into any more western territories which were becoming states. When Lincoln won the 1860 election the slave states saw the handwriting on the wall and seceded. 

Secession and the war were about what would become of slavery. Before the war, Lincoln was willing to continue to talk about how and when slavery would end. Once the war started , much less so. 

Citizen Kaine wants act like either the war was specifically to free the slaves, or it was about states rights.   No, it was about slavery, specifically what would become of slavery in a Lincoln administration if the anti-slavery states became ascendant in Congress. 

It was never about much of anything else. 

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
8.1.1  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  JohnRussell @8.1    2 weeks ago
It was never about much of anything else. 

Once again proving how little you know on the subject...

 
 
 
JohnRussell
8.1.2  JohnRussell  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @8.1.1    2 weeks ago

I obviously know more than you do. 

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
8.1.3  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  JohnRussell @8.1.2    2 weeks ago
I obviously know more than you do

About what? Certainly not about the things leading up to the Civil War. You've already proven that.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
8.2  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @8    2 weeks ago
So you admit what the flag is all about.

Why Yes I do, which is more than I can say about you! It's all about those things, and so much more. Kind of like the American flag which flew over the slaughtering of the Native Americans, the slavery of people, the nuclear holocaust of Nagasaki, the oil wars we continue to fight in the Middle East. Both have seen their atrocities committed beneath their waving, but just as we ignore the horror committed beneath Old Glory and choose to view its positives instead, so do many who fly the Confederate Flag. Only hypocrites can claim that Old Glory is any better than The Confederate Flag.

But on the other hand in recent polling some said they might find it very pleasurable so there are basically two sides to the debate."

Poor debate tactic since you already stated that there are indeed two sides to the hypothetical debate. I hate okra, but there are people who love it. Two sides to a debate coming from opposing views. Nothing makes one opinion more "right" than the other except facts. So far, you've been very light on those...

Okay, so there are two sides to the debate, the side of sanity, reason and human morality and the sick disgusting vile side that anyone who chooses proves to the rest of humanity they are beyond hope and should perhaps be locked up or at the bare minimum kept far away from any dogs

If I were arguing that slavery shouldn't have been abolished, your comparison might have legs to stand on. That isn't and has never been my stance so your strawman argument goes up in flames.

Try again.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
8.2.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @8.2    2 weeks ago

The United States Of America has not always lived up to its stated ideals. 

The Confederate States of America, unfortunately, did live up to its ideals. 

Under the American flag individual states were free to end slavery, under the Confederate flag states had to support and allow slavery into perpetuity. 

No one of right mind here is going to agree with your live and let live attitude about people who committed treason against our country. 

I'd ask you why you keep trying but I already know. 

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
8.2.2  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  JohnRussell @8.2.1    2 weeks ago
The Confederate States of America, unfortunately, did live up to its ideals.

Really? So now the South is a separate Nation? I do believe that was their ultimate goal, wasn't it?

No one of right mind here is going to agree with your live and let live attitude about people who committed treason against our country. 

Those people are long dead, BTW, did yu know that ALL Confederate soldiers were given the status of Military Veterans by Congress?  I bet you didn't. You need a better education to know those fine details.

I'd ask you why you keep trying but I already know. 

And I would ask that you quit making an ass of yourself, BUTT.....

 
 
 
Dulay
8.2.3  Dulay  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @8.2.2    2 weeks ago
Really? So now the South is a separate Nation? I do believe that was their ultimate goal, wasn't it?

John spoke of ideals, not 'ultimate goals' CK. JUST STOP. 

Those people are long dead, BTW, did yu know that ALL Confederate soldiers were given the status of Military Veterans by Congress? 

Prove that with a link CK. From what I have read, your claim is false. You pretend to be educating, do so. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
8.2.4  JohnRussell  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @8.2.2    2 weeks ago
And I would ask that you quit making an ass of yourself, BUTT....

Empty wind. 

The confederate "ideal" was to keep the Africans enslaved , and they went down in flames trying to live up to that ideal. 

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
8.2.5  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @8.2    2 weeks ago
Kind of like the American flag which flew over the slaughtering of the Native Americans, the slavery of people, the nuclear holocaust of Nagasaki, the oil wars we continue to fight in the Middle East.

The difference is that American idealism won out, even though there were those who have done horrendous things to further our nations existence, they eventually show remorse, sometimes even apologizing for our rash or racist behavior. That is the promise made in the preamble:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

It's very different than the ideology of the confederacy:

"The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution." "Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." - Vice President of the confederacy Alexander Stephens

On one hand we have founders who understood we were imperfect so they set up a constitutional system that allowed us to change, to mature as a nation. The confederacy was not set up to mature, it was set up to conserve the status quo, to prevent change, which is what the confederate flag represents, old bitter hatred and prejudice distilled into a useless rag revered only by those who secretly harbor those same old bitter prejudices.

Both have seen their atrocities committed beneath their waving, but just as we ignore the horror committed beneath Old Glory

Not true at all, we do not ignore it, we expose it, we tell the histories unvarnished in most universities and colleges unless they're in the South where telling the truth would just be seen as "rude".

Nothing makes one opinion more "right" than the other except facts.

Well lets list the facts.

The confederacy lost the war, they are losers, fact.

Slavery is inhumane, fact.

The confederacies primary goal was to conserve and preserve slavery, fact.

The confederate flag was used to represent the confederacy and its ideology, fact.

White supremacist groups use the confederate flag as a symbol of their supposed superiority because they know that was the ideology the confederacy supported, fact.

The confederate flag has never represented diversity or unity which is why sometimes it's called the 'rebel flag', it represents lawlessness and hate for authority, fact.

If those facts don't make a person recoil from and reject the confederate flag, then it's likely they're not rational, sane or they harbor those same prejudices that the confederate flag champions.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
8.2.6  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @8.2.5    2 weeks ago
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union , establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Confederate States of America Constitution preamble:

Preamble

We, the people of the Confederate States, each State acting in its sovereign and independent character, in order to form a permanent federal government, establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity — invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God — do ordain and establish this Constitution for the Confederate States of America.

Sounds an awful lot alike.

U.S. Constitution on slaves at the time:

Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.
No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.

From the CSA Constitution:

1. The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same.

2. Congress shall also have power to prohibit the introduction of slaves from any State not a member of, or Territory not belonging to, this Confederacy.

1. The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired.

3. No slave or other person held to service or labor in any State or Territory of the Confederate States, under the laws thereof, escaping or lawfully carried into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor; but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such slave belongs; or to whom such service or labor may be due.

3. The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.

Also remarkably similar to the U,S, Constitution even if it is a little more long winded because of the combining of other issues.

Everyone seems to forget this point; concessions were made from the outset to the Slave States to get them to ratify the Constitution and to join the United States. Once Congress started to change their minds, the Slave States saw this as a breaking of  legally binding contract and sought to end it. The Civil War was not fought for the freeing of slaves or to stop its expansion, but to force the South to remain in the Union.

Now since I'm tired of repeating myself, this will be the end of the discussion. But just so you don't go whining that I didn't address your points, here ya go:

Well lets list the facts.

The confederacy lost the war, they are losers, fact. They were losers. They're all dead.

Slavery is inhumane, fact. No one has said otherwise.

The confederacies primary goal was to conserve and preserve slavery, fact. Yes and no. They wanted to preserve the option to own slaves, but weren't requiring anyone to own them.

The confederate flag was used to represent the confederacy and its ideology, fact. No more than the US Flag represents our ideology on waterboarding, State sanctioned assassination of Foreign Leaders, and the slavery it also allowed to continue in the North until 2 years after the Civil War ended.

White supremacist groups use the confederate flag as a symbol of their supposed superiority because they know that was the ideology the confederacy supported, fact. True. Which is why they also fly the American Flag and the Nazi Flags. They are clinging to an outdated ideology that all three Nations shared at one time.

The confederate flag has never represented diversity or unity which is why sometimes it's called the 'rebel flag', it represents lawlessness and hate for authority, fact. False.The CSA had laws and it established authority. It rebelled against Tyranny, which is what the United States did with Great Britain. Hence why it is called "The Rebel Flag".

If those facts don't make a person recoil from and reject the confederate flag, then it's likely they're not rational, sane or they harbor those same prejudices that the confederate flag champions. Or maybe the person who is telling these people pictured below they hate themselves are actually narcissistic control freaks bent on forcing their opinion on everyone else:

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?u=http%3A%2F%2Flatinamericanstudies.org%2Fcivil-war%2FHervey-2.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

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?u=https%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-bxnKitKlfqk%2FVxl0-EvnxcI%2FAAAAAAAALCs%2FmjF-LTPvCEskNBl1J9fPV-bickLYEu-GgCLcB%2Fw1200-h630-p-k-no-nu%2FIMG_1143.JPG&f=1&nofb=1

To MOST People, the Confederate Flag represents the South, a region of the United States we are proud to be from. It is a land of politeness and manners, a slower pace of life, a lassize-faire attitude towards life where we don't want a bunch of idiots telling us what to think, what to do, or how we should feel. Deal with it, and take your "Its All About Racism" bullshit somewhere else.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
8.2.7  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Dulay @8.2.3    2 weeks ago
Prove that with a link CK. From what I have read, your claim is false.

Done.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
8.2.8  author  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  JohnRussell @8.2.4    2 weeks ago
Empty wind.

I agree; your responses have been less than informative.