BLM Meets Confederate Flag
Black Lives Matter Banner. The Confederate Battle Flag.
You wouldn't think that these two have anything in common, and yet both are perfect illustrations of a common problem; when people assign their bias to another persons cherished symbol. The parallels are actually pretty similar. We are all well aware of the sins that have been committed under both of these banners. They both have presided over burning, looting, and murder. Both sides waving them have tried repeatedly to deny any acceptance of the atrocities committed by those who use them for purposes other than how they are generally regarded within their group who display these banners on a regular basis as a whole, to little avail.
Let's start with the Black Lives Matter banner. This iconic banner had its birth after the acquittal of George Zimmerman in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin in 2013 by a citizen neighborhood watch commander as a hashtag on social media, #blacklivesmatter, but didn't become a banner until the protests following the killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson MO in 2013 and Eric Garner in New York City by police. The ensuing violence being committed by participants under the BLM banner was praised by some of the more extreme supporters, and decried by the majority of the movements members. These acts of violence continue today with looting, burning, murder, and attacks upon both innocent people because of the color of their skin, and upon police officers regardless of the color of their skin. These acts have preempted the original message of the banners intent. This violence has caused many to turn their backs upon the movement and has caused fear to take the place of sympathy in the hearts and minds of many Americans. Has it served its purpose of raising awareness of institutional racism? It most certainly has. As a matter of fact, that awareness has now reached a fevered peak that it is resulting in the defacing, destruction, and removal of all things that are connected in any way with racism and slavery. This has resulted in the defacing of war memorials for fallen soldiers in National cemeteries, and even calls for the removal of statues of the nations Founding Fathers. State flags have been redesigned to remove content that some people deem offensive; namely the Stars and Bars of the Virginia Confederate Battle Flag, which brings us to our second iconic banner...
We all know where the Virginia Confederate Battle Flag came from. There is no debate on its origins in the Civil War, nor on its use during the commission of atrocities upon Black Americans. It continues today to be representative of a racist agenda for some extremist segments of our society. The question we must face though is whether or not today's view of the Confederacy is the same as what it originally represented--or at least what it has come to represent today to most Americans. Recent polling has confirmed that the Confederate Flag represents the South to most of us. There are basically two sides of the debate over what it represents, some say it was all about the promulgation of slavery, while others claim it was a war against Federal overreach. The truth is, it was about both. No matter which side of the debate you take, the pure and simple truth is that both reasons are intertwined indelibly in that conflict. What the Confederate flag came to represent though, is the Southern Region of the United States as the aforementioned poll confirms. This indelible association came once again through the use of racism with Jim Crow Laws and the States passing them using the Confederate Flag (in conjunction with the American Flag) as a backdrop on their political stages to pander to the fear and racism of their constituents. It was also used by the opponents of racism as a symbol to proclaim the South as a hotbed of racism while ignoring their own. Needless to say, those raised in the South have come to see the Confederate Battle Flag as more of a symbol of where they were born and raised than as a symbol of racism. To them, the Confederate Flag symbolizes standing up for a perceived injustice, being a rebel against authority, and hot summer days with cool nights. This is what the South represents to them; this is what the Rebel Flag as it is more commonly known down here, represents to us and apparently, most of the Nation.It has become a symbol of Rebellion, despite what the injustice and the politics that rebellion was built upon. It is recognized all over the world as The Rebel Flag.
Does this sound familiar? Two iconic symbols whose meanings to their adherents are being besmirched by the atrocities committed by the extremist among them??? We can only hope that the BLM Banner does not become what its opponents have deemed it; a symbol of racism, hate and violence just as the Confederate Flag has become to its opponents. It would be a horrible loss of its message and a sad thing if all of those whose fight for equality became guilty by association to the point where tributes to them, tributes to those who inspired them, and memorials to their fallen were torn down, banished from public view, and vandalized because of the bad apples within.
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This has appeared on a meme entitled "The most confused man on earth".
I don't agree with that assessment.
I would say he has embraced the good of both and is ignoring the bad. Why can't the rest of us learn from this man?
"Politics" won't allow it !
"Politics" is the "Elephant" in the room.....ALWAYS !
"Politicians" are the "People" too !
Whatever "good" there is to be associated with the confederate flag is completely drowned out by the bad.
Completely. The only people who would say it is ok to fly the confederate flag are people who would have sympathies to some degree with the Confederate States Of America. And that is not acceptable.
"American Flag" ?
Apparently….not much good came from that "Cloth" either..... huh.
[Deleted]
the only thing the display of the white supremacist flag proves is that not enough confederates took dirt naps in the civil war.
Yeah, those damn Democrats turned out to be a little tougher to beat than first thought.
But we got as many as we could!
Of course, everyone else knows that Confederates don't have anything to do with it today.
That is your opinion. You're entitled to it just like my opinion is that anyone trying to tell others that they have no right to their opinion is an asshole who doesn't earn the right to be an American citizen. In this country, we don't like Tyrants.
confederates stopped being americans when they fired the first shot.
So democrats are not Americans?
For those that don't know the story of H.K. Edgerton pictured in the main article :
flying that white supremacist rag is no different than flying the union jack, the flag of spain, the nazi swastka, the japanese rising sun flag, the italian fascist flag, the north korean flag, the north vietnamese flag, the taliban flag, the iraq flag, the al qaida flag, or any of the other flags of a defeated enemy of the USA. the only place that rag belongs is in museums and history books. it's public display is an insult to every black person and US veteran.
What's ironic is that most liberals look at the American flag the exact same way.
hilarious coming from people that place party loyalty before the US Constitution in word and deed...
Really? Hmmmm..
A short look at democrat history...
From 1776 to 1865 (not 1619 because there was no USA), democrats were the party of slavery.
1861 to 1865- democrats fought a civil war trying to protect the institution of slavery
1865- democrats in Texas had to forcefully release their slaves because they failed to do so 2 years earlier after the Emancipation Proclamation signed by a Republican president, leading to what is known today as Juneteenth.
1865 to 1964- democrats essentially held blacks as indentured slaves in the south, blocking efforts for them to vote and become full citizens of the country, preferring the 3/5th designation.
1964- democrats in Congress filibustered the Civil Rights Act of 1864 for 75 days, and if not for Republicans, the act would never have passed.
1864- Democrat president Johnson said democrats will "have ni66@rs voting democrat for the next 200 years. So far, unfortunately, he has been right. Thankfully many blacks have woken up to the atrocities of the democrat party. These blacks are now known as "tokens" and "Uncle Toms" by other democrats.
1964- today- democrats, especially the white ones, keep blacks on the democrat plantation by making promises to them they never keep, renewing those promises every 2 and 4 years
1970s to today- democrats take control of many American cities, leading them to utter despair and destruction over the years, Blacks within these cities are discriminated against by members of these democrat led city's police departments.
the last several years- democrats loot, burn and destroy public and private property when something within THEIR cities does not go the way they like it.
today- democrats tearing down statues of THEIR ancestors.
None of this can be disputed.
Translation: African Americans are too stupid to realize they are being duped.
Translation: African Americans vote overwhelmingly in support to Democratic leadership and the GOP be mad...
Reality: a SMALL minority on the left get out of hand, the GOP enable the rape and pillaging of the natural resources of the nation at will and call it capitalism.
Today Republicans desperately want to be identified with the party of Lincoln while being the antithesis of Lincoln's party.
Just did.
Did what? You certainly didn't prove him wrong. All you did was voice an unsubstantiated opinion.
Opinions and assholes have something in common. Everyone has one, but not everyone wants to hear them. Especially when the opinions are uneducated and bigoted.
Reading is fundamental CK.
Dispute is not the same as refute. Look it up.
Your comment is applicable to all opinions expressed here, including your own.
I guess you missed the important part of the statement. Let me help you:
Learn the actual history of the conflicts between the States, the SCOTUS, and the Federal Government leading up to the Civil War and the challenges they were making to the Bill of Rights, and you might be able to consider yourself educated. Get rid of the propensity to close your mind to facts that contradict your preconceived notions based upon emotion rather than actual Facts, and you might be able to consider yourself to not be bigoted. Until you do BOTH of those things, my statement stands unchallenged by Fact.
Says who? Certainly not the two pictured above, or those pictured having fun under them, supporting them, or waving them.
What the fuck gives YOU the right to tell them what to think? Are they too stupid to decide for themselves what it means to them? There are literally hundreds of thousands of veterans--Black and White, who have lived in the South and flown that flag with pride in what it represents to them--The South! To them it represents a slower pace of life, hot summer days, and cool nights filled with stars. Mint Juleps and Pat O'Brien's Hurricanes. Sandy beaches and a warm Gulf to swim in. It means Bar-b-ques and cold beer.
It means we aren't worried what the Racist Yankees think when they come down here. Don't like it? Then get the fuck out! We didn't ask you to come down here, and we certainly don't need you telling us how WE should feel.
racist domestic terrorists that couldn't grasp the full meaning of the US Constitution lost a civil war and their weak minded descendants still can't get over it. tough shit. if some people want their heritage to be represented by the symbol of white supremacy in the USA, they should get used to the verbal derision it creates.
I was born in the south. luckily I escaped before the racist heritage indoctrination began.
I live in the south today. There are far more blacks in the south than there are blacks in northern states. Every day blacks and whites and hispanics and Asians wake up, greet each other in the streets, eat in the same restaurants, and attend the same parties.
Blacks and whites in democrat cities are burning, looting and destroying their cites...
And tearing down statues of their white ancestors.
Thats nice. What does it have to do with the confederate flag?
The fact is you libs try and portray the south as a bunch of bigoted racists wrapping themselves around the Confederate flag.
[deleted]
To where? The North?
Oops!
it shouldn't offend you so much then...
Where did it say it offended me?
Liberal tactics of trying to get me to defend something I never said does not work on me.
Fail
You guys make about as much sense as a 2 hour Trump rally speech.
Got anything better than a Personal Attack? Never mind. I know better than to ask...
I was born in Calif and raised in the South. I lived in every state in the South except Florida. I'm very familiar with Southern racism.
What a total crock of shit. You really can't get more ignorant, more callous, more stupid than to try and equate a recent movement for civil rights that has ZERO blood on their hands to the confederacy that is literally dripping with the blood of innocents. What a dishonest and dishonorable piece of trash seed. Those reading and liking it are proving just how deep in denial they are and truly shows how much further the civil rights movement has to go, because this kind of racist bullshit needs to be dug up and burned root and branch.
Ummmmm…… The "Thirteen" that have been KILLED during "Hurricane Floyd" so far......don't "Matter" ?
What utter bullshit trying to just pin disparate deaths from a variety of origins on a single group.
What a sick and utter useless lie you keep repeating. That guy had nothing to do with the BLM movement, he was not a member, they had nothing to do with him and obviously in NO WAY sanctioned his attack. Trying to paint them with those cops deaths is disgusting and disingenuous. If BLM were responsible for their deaths then every right wing conservative is responsible for the 9 black Americans Dylan roof gunned down and the other nearly 100 Americans killed by right wing extremists in 2018.
Some may hate that black Americans are asking to be considered as valuable as white lives. Some may despise the messengers who remind them that black lives are currently undervalued by this racially unjust justice system. Some may seethe with hatred for those who remind them that they would be losing their ever loving minds if the same treatment that black Americans experience on a daily basis were being applied to white Americans. These folk, I'm sure, have some valid excuse for being total pieces of shit, like perhaps being dropped frequently as a child or having chronic traumatic encephalopathy from playing foot ball without a helmet when they were young, so we just have to treat them like the brain damaged babies they are.
Funny how statistics show that they are and that it is more of a case of how poor people are treated in general. Twice as many whites being killed by cops compared to the fact that blacks which compromise only 17% of the U.S. population are committing more crimes than whites. You would think it would be the other way around. Guess all those white criminals left their White Privilege cards at home.
Kinda like what Protestors are doing to the Police ?
What Utter Bullshit huh.
I have been reading and watching videos about "The Lost Cause" when I can lately. Pretty interesting topic.
The excuse for the confederate flag seems to be that it means "good times" to some people, having a few beers at a picnic down by the lake with the rebel flag propped up on the back of the pick up truck.
So if somehow the Nazi swastika somehow became a symbol of good times , at the beer hall on a crisp autumn night maybe, then the German people would have to decide what the swastika really means to them?
I find this logic lacking.
The confederate flag represented the confederacy. By its own description, the confederacy was the world's first white supremacist nation. The confederate flag should never be flown as a symbol of pride in anything, even one's pride in their geographical region.
No one flies a "Great Lakes" flag while they drive around town on a nice evening.
Who cares about "the south" ? It is a region of the country, not a mythical independent nation.
Little history lesson for you.
The Confederate BATTLE FLAG that many ASSUME is the confederate flag is nothing more than what the military calls a Guidon. A flag or banner that represents a military unit / activity.
This guidon was designed by the military of the Confederate States of America during the civil war as a flag / banner to help identify Confederate forces from Union forces.
The actual " Confederate Flag " (and there were many) looks more like several existing state flags like Mississippi, Georgia, Alabama and North Carolina. But, there is never much outrage over the state flags.
What is represents for you isn't necessarily what it represents to all.
the only confederate flag that mattered then and now was the last flag the confederates flew, the white flag of surrender.
Confederate flag - 2nd national flag of the Confederate States Of America (blue cross with white stars on red background , with all white field)
Confederate flag ( Trump rally) 2016
I have no idea what your point is, except you seem to want to defend the confederate flag.
There were 4 versions of the first CSA national flag which closely resembled Betsy Ross's flag.
The second CSA national flag had 2 versions, the white stainless and the white with bar to alleviate confusion about surrendering...
There were 11 guidons from the different states and the collective 10 states had 15 official flags.
After Manassas CSA General Beauregard, having witnessed several massive friendly fire incidents
insisted on a unique war flag to allay the confusion and the "X" pattern fit the bill.
From the original guidon, the Virginia battle flag grew and infested many unit and state flags
because it was unique.
The Jamacan flag is the only other example of an "X" flag.
(The UK Union Jack has one in the background behind the primary cross.)
ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA
During the American Civil War (1861–65), the Confederate States of America began to use its first flag, the Stars and Bars, on March 5, 1861. After the First Battle of Bull Run, when similarity between the Stars and Bars and the Union Stars and Stripes made it difficult for troops to distinguish friend from foe, Confederate commanders petitioned for a new flag. In November 1861 the first Confederate Battle Flags were issued. Although variations of the Battle Flag pattern were numerous and widespread, the most-common design, known as the “Southern Cross,” featured a blue saltire (diagonal cross), trimmed with white, with 13 white stars—representing the 11 states of the Confederacy plus Missouri and Kentucky —on a field of red. The Battle Flag was square, rather than rectangular, and its dimensions varied depending on branch of service, ranging from 48 inches (120 cm) across for the infantry to 30 inches (76 cm) across for cavalry.
The design of the Stars and Bars varied over the following two years. On May 1, 1863, the Confederacy adopted its first official national flag, often called the Stainless Banner. That design integrated the Battle Flag as a canton on a field of white. Over time, however, the design drew criticism because the display of a broad field of white could be misinterpreted as a declaration of surrender. A modification of that design was adopted on March 4, 1865, about a month before the end of the war. The so-called Blood Stained Banner added a vertical red stripe to the 1863 design.
After the war the Confederate Battle Flag would persist as the most-recognizable symbol of the Confederate States of America. The state flag of Mississippi integrated the Battle Flag as its canton, while the flag of Georgia , in its various permutations, included elements of both the Battle Flag and the Stars and Bars. Beginning in the latter part of the 20th century, many groups in the South challenged the practice of flying the Confederate Battle Flag on public buildings, including some state capitols. Proponents of the tradition argued that the flag recalled Southern heritage and wartime sacrifice, whereas opponents saw it as a symbol of racism and slavery , inappropriate for official display.
I know there were various iterations of the confederate flags. Originally the confederate flag was this
but battlefield commanders complained it was causing confusion because in the fog of war it too closely resembled the union flag. So what we know as the confederate battle flag was designed and used.
Eventually this design was also used in the national flag of the CSA.
What I dont get is why these lost causers keep denying that the battle flag IS the commonly accepted confederate flag. There is no question about this so what is all the bullshit for.
Think again. In this state there has been controversy over the state flag for decades. Including lawsuits, bills in the statehouse, cities and towns refusing to fly the flag, protests, etc.
There are rallies in my county about it this weekend.
There should be...it is a combination of Beauregard's guidon/penant with the first CSA bars
Two middle fingers to the Union........
I know. I have contributed to and corrected the Wiki pages when I lived in SC.
I can only shake my head when people call it history. It wasn't even the states first flag.
At the time of their creation, that was definitely the predominate feeling of the people who created it!
Considering the Congressional Approval Rating, I don't think much has changed...
Oh, I forgot to add, the flag you showed was never officially adopted as the state flag. So the state has really only had one official flag, the Magnolia flag.
So according to laws adopted, the Magnolia flag was the only official flag for the state. Still to this day we don't by law have one.
We have also flown under French, British and Spanish flags.
I don't see people calling it history and flying one of those.
Of course you don't. When you are sos that happens.
Not defending it. Just have a different view of it.
I am pretty sure that's what I already said, and that the square guidon you posted grew into a full sized flag.
?
Did I miss something?
The flag that Trump supporters hung at his rally is the same flag image that became part of the official flag of the CSA. Same thing.
This is not confusing. It is a racist flag. We can absolutely know that because the CSA was a white supremacist nation.
Legalese?
I can see that the state had two official flags both of which were done away with by legislation.
Who needs legislation?
Order a MS state flag online and you will get the flag that flies on the capitol in Jackson.
It is the "defacto" flag of MS.
I did not know of the 1906 technicality, hopefully they can rectify that and restore the Magnolia flag.
I love Magnolia, planted one for my daughter in SC 27 years ago.
Pretty much the entire Nation was at the time, but I imagine you already knew that didn't you? If not, I can certainly educate you on it.
Our Governor tater tot will not answer any questions about it. Will not say if he supports it or not. Will only say it is up to the people.
I kind of like the Magnolia flag but the blue bonnet part is from that whole Florida territory thing.
Years ago when it was up for a vote there was a rendering for the new flag. Would have been a Magnolia flower. Can't find a pic of it right now.
If you dont know the difference between the USA and the CSA you are beyond education.
and Texas usurped it! once or twice, lol.
It is easy to see by the responses through out this conversation exactly who is lacking in education; and it certainly isn't me! I guess it pays to actually do research before accepting talking points as gospel. I suggest some people should try it some time...
I really dont bother with people who have unwarrentedly high opinions of themselves.
For starters, get these two books
==================================================================
Apostles of Disunion: Southern Secession Commissioners and the Causes of the Civil War
The Myth of the Lost Cause: Why the South Fought the Civil ...
The Myth of the Lost Cause by Edward Bonekemper Back in the 1980s, I read John Keegan’s “The Masks of Command.” I was stunned to read Keegan describe U.S. Grant as the only military genius to come out of the American Civil War.
===========================================================================================
Then how do you get dressed in the mornings?
BTW, Spellcheck should be your best friend.
Did you miss where I stated "one of many"? Maybe you should go back and re-read my comment.
I'm sorry that you feel it's a racist flag. I see it for what it was initially designed for. As I stated in 5.2, What is represents for you isn't necessarily what it represents to all. That doesn't make anybody wrong, it's merely a difference of opinion.
I like to make up words occasionally , its a small hobby I have.
No doubt. I would imagine that making up words and being a bigot occupy the majority of your time leaving little room for your most pressing concern...the cost of diapers.
You got me Greg. I'm a bigot against people who wave the confederate flag. How could you tell?
All the Southerners that I know still seem to be partial to it.
Only racists would defend the flying of this flag in 2020.
I guess I should have quoted, sorry. My post was meant as a reply to your query "who cares about the south"
13 of the following off topic, slap fighting comments were deleted & the tickets were reversed SP
True.
No. There is no need for that question, the answer is already known as you pointed out, there "is no debate on its origins in the Civil War, nor on its use during atrocities".
"The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution." "Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." - Vice President of the Confederacy Alexander Stephens March 22, 1861
No. There is one side which are historical facts. If you want to add another side of "irrational half wits commiserating over their ancestors losing a war but still harboring hate for minorities" then you'll need to file that with the government as a new political party.
Nope. The lie is "It's both" which comes from slimy sycophant apologists for confederate bigots, most likely their descendants trying to fabricate some cover for their racist ancestors. As their Vice President said at the time "African slavery as it exists among us" "was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution".
Yes. You do know what "indelible" means right?
Indelible: adjective - making marks that cannot be removed.
I guess there were no black Americans raised in the South or their opinions just don't matter because they're not "real" people anyway, right? "Those raised in the south", as if you're going to speak for them all, what utter despicable horseshit.
No, not at all. The two couldn't be more different, and the fact that you can't see that glaring obvious fact is just sad. Trying to equate a peaceful movement trying to bring attention to the blatant disparities in how our justice system disproportionally and unjustly treats black Americans and a symbol of hate, division and white supremacy is just more sick than I could ever have imagined. It's mind boggling stupid, it's mentally deranged.
Oh please, stop with the theatrics. No one even knows what a "BLM" banner looks like because I've seen dozens of different signs making that statement and none looked the same. "We can only hope", as if. I've no doubt those gleefully clapping at this sick seed are hoping everyday they can smear BLM with something, anything! "Smear them with those cops deaths ! Yeah, that's it! Even though there was NO TIE WHATSOEVER to BLM as a group, lets lie about them, that will help push towards our bullshit whiny piece of shit white supremacists narrative! Yeah".
Funny, it doesn't seem to be the South whining as much as it seems to be Democrats and Liberals. Their feelings are being hurt by someone telling them to take their Racism bullshit and shove it up their ass. Sucks for them to find out that the overplayed race card won't save their snowflake feelings from the facts unfolding in front of their drooling faces, if they can define the Many by the acts of the Few, then they too will be judged by the same measure.
Your attempt to rehabilitate the confederate flag didnt work. So sorry.
No rehabing of the flag needed. It doesn't feel anything because it's an inanimate object. Just as a cross represents a way of life to a Christian, death to a vampire, and an object of ridicule to an atheist, it is the choice made by the observer. They have no right to tell anyone else how they must feel. Anyone who tries to should go fuck themselves. They are narcissist who think they are so much better than everyone else that only their opinion matters. Fuck those pieces of shit assholes!
Something got under your skin, eh?
The constitution of the Confederate States of America made it impossible for any member state to ever unilaterally end slavery in that state, so African slavery would exist as long as the Confederate States of America existed.
The "confederate flag" , also known as the battle flag, became part of the official national flag of the Confederate States of America in 1863.
On what POSSIBLE basis do you think it is appropriate for citizens of the United States to fly that flag with pride in 2020?
Because it makes southerners feel good about themselves? rofl.
YEP! What more reason does anyone need? It's kind of like a Team South mascot flag. No wonder Yankees hate it so much!
Why is there a Team South? Is there a Team East, West, or North?
The only claim to fame the south has is that its upper classes used to own slaves.
The only ones claiming that are those that are ignorant of history, geography, science, economics, music, and well--just about everything...except maybe on how to pound a keyboard to fill a screen with ignorance that is. I'll bet they are experts on that!
Well, there are accomplished people from the south and there are achievements in the south, but no more than in the east west or north of the United States. You dont see people wanting to fly a flag to celebrate the Great Lakes region.
It's not my problem if southerners want to try and fetishize themselves. Do it without the racist flag.
Whom were overwhelmingly democrats
I'm sorry but I've never heard a Flag speak. Have you? If so, you might want to have that checked out...
So I take it black Southerns who feel differently just don't count? The white Southerners haven't seen them as real citizens anyway so why listen to them, right? Only care about how the white bigots feel about the disgusting symbol of racism, hate and treason, let's not listen to the victims and those who suffered under that slimy banner. What wonderful white people you have down there, demanding everyone listen to them but refusing to listen to anyone else, demanding their "feelings" be heard but refusing to listen to the feelings of their victims or of the oppressed. I'm not surprised, that's who they are, but it's still sad to see it so blatantly expressed as you have done in this seed.
Sure they do! As a minority opinion , and even that isn't unanimous amongst them!
Bigot and Racist are not interchangeable. Take for instance the fact that your opinion is bigoted by the very definition of the word:
Just for clarity I want to admit that 17% of the population is Black. 28% of those Blacks see the Confederate flag as a symbol of Racism. I wonder how many of those 12.4% of the population who view it as Racist live outside of the South? I also wonder why their opinion counts more than those Blacks who actually live here???
Last time I looked there were no surviving former slaves. Got any links? Those are the only "victims" of slavery. Are you talking about victims of Racism? I hope not, because that is a can of worms you best leave unopened. You might be embarrassed by what you don't know about it.
Seed? I'm not surprised that you failed to recognize an original work from a "seed".
Gee, I wonder when the folks will begin to get worked up over the fact that for decades, slavery flourished under the American flag--long before there even was a Confederacy.
When will they call for the American flag to be done away with?
They won't because then they would have to admit that ending slavery in the South was a war tactic only, not the cause celeb of the Civil War; which is why Slavery didn't officially end in the North until AFTER the Civil War ended.
The south seceded because Abraham Lincoln had won the 1860 presidential election. Lincoln was known to be against the expansion of slavery. The end of slavery was not an afterthought to the war, it was the reason it happened.
One of many actually. Get educated here.
You linked something that makes my case. Thanks
As if any of them would do any serious research that might conflict with their preconceived views and indoctrinated lies from teachers in the South who either weren't allowed to teach facts about the civil war or chose to gloss over the parts that verify the treason and bigotry of their ancestors.
"African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution." "Our new government is founded" " its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. - Vice President of the Confederacy Alexander Stephens
Even when you shove their noses in their own shit they still refuse to acknowledge it and claim they smell roses. They continue this repulsive lie that the civil war wasn't "really" about slavery and that it was just some "war tactic" which is utter bullshit.
There's stupid and there's ignorance. Ignorance is just being uninformed, not knowing the facts so you can fix ignorance. Stupid is having the facts in front of your face but still refusing to accept them because you don't want to or your brain is incapable of understanding. Sadly, you can't fix stupid, and these confederate flag defenders are just plain stupid.
Let me help you out a little:
Comprehension is key. I believe I already warned you there were many factors involved. The Slavery Issue just brought it all to a head. Just to test your actual knowledge of why economics of slavery were such an important issue at the time, explain to me why the north wanted to abolish it in the Southern States and prevent it's spread westward, but not in the North.
Yes there were other things involved, like state's rights. The southern states wanted the right to continue to own slaves, and have the northern states co-operate by sending escaped slaves back south.
Would you like to see the declarations of secession where the various southern states say the disposition of slavery was the thing that led them to secession?
Stupidity is not researching a topic before debating it:
To quote Lincoln and his view of Blacks:
Your real education has begun....
I'd prefer to see the Word Cloud that shows which words were mentioned most often in those succession documents. I could be wrong, but I believe they would have mentioned what was foremost in their minds more often. Care to share that picture???
I wonder why you chose to giant bold type the rest of that sentence but selected nearly the smallest font for this line which helps to understand what the supposed "states rights" complaint was. The South was furious that the Northern States were refusing to accept their proclaimed ownership and were even, God forbid, writing their own laws making it legal to harbor fugitive slaves or did away with the penalties the South tried to force on them. That's right, the south was demanding the North be forced to change their State laws, they were the ones trampling States rights all so they could own humans like cattle. I find it hilarious that your own post proves how fucking wrong you are.
Because JR had already done so while ignoring the rest of the line that I brought to the forefront. Did you miss that?
In order to be wrong I would have to be the fucking idiot who thinks that "it was all about slavery" even after I've been proven fucking wrong!
Central to all of this was the slaves, which I have stated time after time as being the linchpin that brought it all to a head. The Civil War was NOT fought to free the slaves, no matter how many idiots think so...
Keep digging CK. All you are doing is proving our points.
Since the topic is the reason for the start of the Civil War in 1861, WHY do you think that posting a link about the 1863 Emancipation Proclamation is relevant?
Again, relevance? The topic is the reason for the start of the Civil War, NOT Lincoln's views on blacks.
Oh and BTFW, you block quoted an article which selectively truncates ONE VERSION of what Lincoln said at that debate. Your link provides a different version, via archive, with a different context.
That real education seems to begin with illustrating a bias for posting what you think bolsters your ideology.
No, it was started by worthless treasonous bigoted white Christian conservatives who demanded their right to own humans as cattle and demanded the other States respect that right. When the Northern States stopped respecting the disgusting slave trade, the South attacked. Why are you having such a hard time with facts? Is it because you're so fucking desperate to view the treasonous confederacy in some other light? That you can't accept the many, many, many statements made by confederates of the time PROVING that slavery was not only the "linchpin" but the "cornerstone" that the entire civil war rested upon? By continuing to deny reality you just keep exposing your true agenda, a white washing of the confederacy to make it more appealing today, and the only reason I can think of anyone doing that is because they still secretly support the ideals of the confederacy, the cornerstone of which was "the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." as the Vice President of the confederacy so blatantly and openly admitted.
Even if there was some reasonable requests to be made of the Northern States, do you really want to drink that punch from a punch bowl that has the very real and very slimy turd of slavery floating in it? You're going to selectively scoop out your cup of confederate praise punch even though you've already admitted that slavery was not only in the confederate punch bowl, but was a "linchpin" in your words?
Linchpin: noun - a person or thing vital to an enterprise or organization.
So go ahead, try again, your attempts at deflecting and defending the confederacy are falling as flat as your sad desperate bullshit narrative.
Mindset is relevant. Matter of fact, it is arguably the BIGGEST factor in the entire fucking war!
Uhm, are you now denying that the slavery issue wasn't what brought all of the grievances with the Federal Government and the States to a head? Or are you saying the abolishing of slavery doesn't fit the definition of an "enterprise"?
As unsavory a thought as it is, History doesn't give a fuck what you think about actual Facts. Sometimes they are coated in shit and hard to swallow, but they are still Facts. I suppose this is why you have a problem with swallowing them, but I just hold my nose while I ingest and digest the knowledge. You should try it sometimes.
I'm not surprised that some, especially those who desperately try to defend a blatant symbol of racism, are deliberate shit eaters.
Only someone seriously lacking in reading comprehension would come to such an obviously wrong conclusion. What I said was:
"many statements made by confederates of the time PROVING that slavery was not only the "linchpin" but the "cornerstone" that the entire civil war rested upon?"
You do understand what "not only" means right? I'll give you a hint, it doesn't mean "is not" or "doesn't apply".
As my numerous posts point out, "not only" was slavery the "linchpin" and the "cornerstone" on which the civil war rested, without it the civil war would not have happened. The excuses I have heard from some on the right claiming it wasn't really about slavery but about States rights or making some dumb fuck claim like the "Civil war was fought solely to preserve the Union" when anyone with more than half a brain and a smattering of American history education knows the Union didn't start the war, they simply responded after being attacked by treasonous southern bigots who were trying to impose their will on the Northern States and force them to repeal their State laws that removed the penalties the South had tried to impose on anyone harboring runaway slaves.
The South were the ones who were bitterly angry with the North over States rights, the southern States believed they should get to dictate the laws of other States and wanted the federal government to overrule those Northern States authority. They wanted the Northern States to be forced to return what they saw as their goods/property even when they were no longer in their own States.
I really don't know why anyone would continue to defend the indefensible, but I guess in this world it takes all kinds, so no doubt there would be those who just love their racist Southern heritage and the fact that their ancestors fought and killed hundreds of thousands of American soldiers all so they could keep owning other humans as cattle, and many did so flying the confederate flag, a symbol of racism, hate, slavery and ignorance. Oh, and another thing the confederate flag represents, losing. It's the flag of treasonous losers.
The number of stars on a confederate battle flag no doubt represents the average IQ of those still honoring such a vile rag. Sadly, this means they are too stupid to even understand why sane, rational, patriotic Americans would never honor such gross symbol of division and treason.
Yet you've denied the documented mindset of the seceding states. Why?
I love the fact that the stupidity on display in your posts is a prime example of the ongoing failures of Public Education. Slaves were property. Bought, sold and owned just as any property is today. The fact that they were human and its morally wrong in no way changed that legal definition. Therefore all of these infringements upon the owners of slaves Rights, were infringements on their Property Rights, and the Federal Government was infringing upon the States Rights in regards to regulating ownership of Property by its Citizens. This is where Public Education, and YOU get it wrong. You want to make it about the Rights of the slaves--they had none at the time. Maybe if you actually exchanged something that is one of today's equivalents to slaves, you could better understand the Rights the owners were fighting for. You won't do that however, because then you would be forced to concede that your teachers were idiots at best, or more likely liars pushing an agenda of race baiting bullshit. Keep swallowing the Koolaid if you enjoy the taste so much, it comes from that turd infested punchbowl you referenced in your last post. You may have a harder time identifying it though, as it is all shit and too many have become immune and receptive to its taste.
No I haven't! Their mindset was slaves were inferior beings. This was the predominate belief at the time across the board with very few saying otherwise. It was even supported by "scientific studies" , if you can believe that, lol!
The denial isn't on my end, but on the end of those claiming that this battle was all about freeing a Race held in chains; it wasn't.
Really?
That was you right? As if the word most mentioned has any relevance to the context of the statement. Neither the word slave or slavery would appear in a Word Cloud of the Constitution but we all know that it both are implicit.
Bullshit. Slavery had been abolished in much of the country and much of the world by the time of the secession of the southern states.
Oh and BTFW, the 'mindset' was that women were 'inferior beings' but that didn't make them so.
So is the flat earth theory.
All one needs do to prove that false is to review what you emphasized in your block quote of John's post.
Only the south was forced to concede they lost, they were losers as was their conservative ideology. My teachers taught facts and reality, not some white washed sugar coated American history where all our white ancestors were some knights in shining armor, even the treasonous losers who attacked our nation.
I disagree. The fact that they were human made all the difference in the world, the difference between right and wrong. Slavery was wrong no matter how legal it was at the time. Those Northern States passing laws that rejected the fines and other penalties that the Southern States were trying to force on Northern States citizens were perfectly within their right to do so.
You make the claim that as property they should have been returned to their Southern slavers hands. But the fact was that the Northern States citizens weren't keeping them as their own property, they weren't "holding" Southern States property, the South was trying to force Northern citizens to act as police and bounty hunters, to force them to work with slavers under the threat of fines and punishment. That's essentially enslaving the free Northern citizens forcing them to comply and be complicit in the slave trade.
Nice try but I haven't swallowed any sick ideological punch, the only ones with shit dripping from their chins are those ignorantly defending a blatant symbol of slavery, hate and white supremacy.
While I'm sure that's the way it is with so many confederate defenders, for those of us that don't have our heads shoved up our own asses we can easily smell the shit on confederate bigots teeth every time they open their stupid inbred mouths.
Is that the best you have for insults? Is this where we start hurling the "yo Momma" insults??? Ever hear the one "Yo Momma got three titties and wears combat boots to bed"? Had a 12 year old throw that at me when I was in junior high. I told him I wouldn't know because I spent all my time having anal sex with his momma and never made it home to see mine. Started a fist fight in class, which I won, lol! You gotta get better material. I feel your pain though. I know how hard it is to come up with insults off the cuff when you don't have something to guide you. Okay, not really....but I can imagine your pain if that is any comfort!
Come back when you want to argue facts instead of posting emotional diatribes...
Yes, it does. If I said I detest frogs a hundred times and I said I detest crickets only once, then I would say my repeated statements of frog hatred would be more intense than my hatred of crickets. But don't let common sense cloud your rant by any means...
Slavery might have been, but the feeling of White Supremacy hadn't been which is proven by those self same studies I mentioned which still appeared all the way up until the early 1900's. But don't let stupid little facts get in the way!
Which also deserves a lol!
John argued that the war was all about "slavery" and highlights portions of the text to prove his case. I highlighted the portions he excluded to prove him wrong that there were more issues than just slavery that were under consideration at the time. I guess it sucks that I proved him wrong...for some people!
The state secession proclamations are documents debated and voted on by legislatures, not your posts CK.
You are the one ranting CK, I am merely calling you on your uninformed comments.
After reviewing John's comments, I don't see where he ever said the civil war was 'all' about slavery. Care to post the comment number where John said that?
Actually, what you did was quote the EXACT same content, accentuating different words. As I said, it merely illustrates you bias.
You didn't prove anyone wrong CK. All you proved is that you read the same content through an opposite ideological lens.
Did the United States end slavery, or did it secede in order to preserve slavery?
What is with all these dumb questions from "southerners" ?
Says the guy from the city with the most black on black killing in the country, bar none.
Why are you not worried about them?
Who says I am not worried about them?
This article is about the confederate flag, not Chicago.
By the way, Chicago does not have the highest black on black crime rates. "Bar none".
Link????
Because you asked "Why all the dumb questions from Southerners".
You are obviously more concerned about what southerners do, and don't care about fellow democrat citizens in your own city knocking each other off in large numbers on a daily basis.
That is absolutely freaking hilarious! LMAO!
You asked THAT and THEN posted this little gem?
I didn't know you were a Southerner. Surprise, surprise!
So you admit what the flag is all about.
This argument is like saying "Hey, grabbing your dog by the scruff of his neck, holding him down and raping him is sick, disgusting and illegal. But on the other hand in recent polling some said they might find it very pleasurable so there are basically two sides to the debate."
Okay, so there are two sides to the debate, the side of sanity, reason and human morality and the sick disgusting vile side that anyone who chooses proves to the rest of humanity they are beyond hope and should perhaps be locked up or at the bare minimum kept far away from any dogs.
Throughout this "debate" Citizen Kaine has been trying to play word games. He keeps saying that the Civil War was not fought to free the slaves, as if that were a sufficient declaration.
Secession, and the war, were over what was to become of slavery. Whether or not the Union had an announced goal from the beginning to free the slaves is almost immaterial.
Lincoln ran on a platform of not allowing slavery into any more western territories which were becoming states. When Lincoln won the 1860 election the slave states saw the handwriting on the wall and seceded.
Secession and the war were about what would become of slavery. Before the war, Lincoln was willing to continue to talk about how and when slavery would end. Once the war started , much less so.
Citizen Kaine wants act like either the war was specifically to free the slaves, or it was about states rights. No, it was about slavery, specifically what would become of slavery in a Lincoln administration if the anti-slavery states became ascendant in Congress.
It was never about much of anything else.
Once again proving how little you know on the subject...
I obviously know more than you do.
About what? Certainly not about the things leading up to the Civil War. You've already proven that.
Why Yes I do, which is more than I can say about you! It's all about those things, and so much more. Kind of like the American flag which flew over the slaughtering of the Native Americans, the slavery of people, the nuclear holocaust of Nagasaki, the oil wars we continue to fight in the Middle East. Both have seen their atrocities committed beneath their waving, but just as we ignore the horror committed beneath Old Glory and choose to view its positives instead, so do many who fly the Confederate Flag. Only hypocrites can claim that Old Glory is any better than The Confederate Flag.
Poor debate tactic since you already stated that there are indeed two sides to the hypothetical debate. I hate okra, but there are people who love it. Two sides to a debate coming from opposing views. Nothing makes one opinion more "right" than the other except facts. So far, you've been very light on those...
If I were arguing that slavery shouldn't have been abolished, your comparison might have legs to stand on. That isn't and has never been my stance so your strawman argument goes up in flames.
Try again.
The United States Of America has not always lived up to its stated ideals.
The Confederate States of America, unfortunately, did live up to its ideals.
Under the American flag individual states were free to end slavery, under the Confederate flag states had to support and allow slavery into perpetuity.
No one of right mind here is going to agree with your live and let live attitude about people who committed treason against our country.
I'd ask you why you keep trying but I already know.
Really? So now the South is a separate Nation? I do believe that was their ultimate goal, wasn't it?
Those people are long dead, BTW, did yu know that ALL Confederate soldiers were given the status of Military Veterans by Congress? I bet you didn't. You need a better education to know those fine details.
And I would ask that you quit making an ass of yourself, BUTT.....
John spoke of ideals, not 'ultimate goals' CK. JUST STOP.
Prove that with a link CK. From what I have read, your claim is false. You pretend to be educating, do so.
Empty wind.
The confederate "ideal" was to keep the Africans enslaved , and they went down in flames trying to live up to that ideal.
The difference is that American idealism won out, even though there were those who have done horrendous things to further our nations existence, they eventually show remorse, sometimes even apologizing for our rash or racist behavior. That is the promise made in the preamble:
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
It's very different than the ideology of the confederacy:
"The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution." "Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." - Vice President of the confederacy Alexander Stephens
On one hand we have founders who understood we were imperfect so they set up a constitutional system that allowed us to change, to mature as a nation. The confederacy was not set up to mature, it was set up to conserve the status quo, to prevent change, which is what the confederate flag represents, old bitter hatred and prejudice distilled into a useless rag revered only by those who secretly harbor those same old bitter prejudices.
Not true at all, we do not ignore it, we expose it, we tell the histories unvarnished in most universities and colleges unless they're in the South where telling the truth would just be seen as "rude".
Well lets list the facts.
The confederacy lost the war, they are losers, fact.
Slavery is inhumane, fact.
The confederacies primary goal was to conserve and preserve slavery, fact.
The confederate flag was used to represent the confederacy and its ideology, fact.
White supremacist groups use the confederate flag as a symbol of their supposed superiority because they know that was the ideology the confederacy supported, fact.
The confederate flag has never represented diversity or unity which is why sometimes it's called the 'rebel flag', it represents lawlessness and hate for authority, fact.
If those facts don't make a person recoil from and reject the confederate flag, then it's likely they're not rational, sane or they harbor those same prejudices that the confederate flag champions.
Confederate States of America Constitution preamble:
Sounds an awful lot alike.
U.S. Constitution on slaves at the time:
From the CSA Constitution:
Also remarkably similar to the U,S, Constitution even if it is a little more long winded because of the combining of other issues.
Everyone seems to forget this point; concessions were made from the outset to the Slave States to get them to ratify the Constitution and to join the United States. Once Congress started to change their minds, the Slave States saw this as a breaking of legally binding contract and sought to end it. The Civil War was not fought for the freeing of slaves or to stop its expansion, but to force the South to remain in the Union.
Now since I'm tired of repeating myself, this will be the end of the discussion. But just so you don't go whining that I didn't address your points, here ya go:
Done.
I agree; your responses have been less than informative.