Freedom of Choice
Freedom of Choice
Who, other than perhaps a prisoner in jail or a patient in a mental hospital, does not have the freedom to choose, within the limitations and parameters of a civilized society? Perhaps adherents to a certain religion, if it means being labeled and hunted as an infidel might not have such freedom. We westerners consider ourselves civilized, and that we are entitled to make choices. What right do we have to criticize others who make choices that harm nobody, choices that may well have been the result of reasonable sensitivity for the feelings of others. The ones who are critical of those who exercise such choices make choices themselves, so who are they to criticize others?
Remember, the caveat here is that choices should not be made that lead to harming others. This is not Sophies Choice but if you have to choose between little harm caused and a lot of harm caused, then the choice must be for the least harm caused. Sometimes the dilemma is a difficult one to overcome, but it appears that there are always going to be insensitive critics of persons who make difficult choices. Perhaps it is their bent to be Devil's Advocates, or perhaps they just love to be ornery. Who knows? But then, that is THEIR choice, and they can live with it, and feel they have accomplished something.
There are those who build and there are those who destroy. Who do you want to be? We don't live forever, so how do you want to be remembered?
Buzz of the Orient
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Sargent York had a difficult choice to make. He could have leaned on the bible and remained a pacifist, or fought for his country to the best of his ability. Pleading to be excused from serving due to his being a conscientious objector, his commanding officer gave him The History of the United States to read. This photo is of Gary Cooper, playing Sgt. York, reading the History, and making what was for him a very tough decision. There would be critics whichever choice he made.
Our government does allow people who's religious beliefs to not fight in war. Think the Amish. What we don't allow is for those who are selfish and want the protection of our country but are not willing to fight for it, to not serve.
Buzz,
A very interesting discussion. Many choices in life is really a choice of lessor evils, or choices whether we please ourselves at the cost to others. Choices of lessor of two evils are very difficult to weigh out. Choices of cost to us or others are a measure of selflessness or selfishness.
I Like what Nehemiah said "And for the wood offering, at times appointed, and for the firstfruits. Remember me, O my God, for good." Nehemiah 13:31 KJV
I agree that there have been times when someone wants our youth to go to war for reasons that I disagree with. But then again, society must function as a whole. There were German Americans who supported Hitler and didn't want to fight in WWII. Should we have honored that? Sometimes, these choices are not so cut and dry.
Perhaps I shouldn't have used Sgt. York as an example of having to make a difficult choice, because the article is really about difficult choices and both self-doubt and criticism of others no matter which choice is made, and not just limited to conscientious objectors in time of war.
If I may Buzz this might help James 4:17 "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." KJV
That can justify what I did, Arch-Man.
Honorable, sometimes that's the best we can do.
The story of Abraham and Issac comes to mind. I have often heard the common interpretation. That Abraham was obedient to god and was willing to sacrifice Issac. I always hated this interpretation, since it made god seem petty, and willing to put a man through hell to prove his devotion.
But recently I heard a different interpretation of this story that made a whole lot more sense. Gods test wasn't about devotion to him, but knowing wrong from right, even if a superior tells you to do something. That Abraham should have never come so close to killing his son to prove devotion, since no real good person should do this for anyone. And as punishment, Isaac leaves Abraham forever. This version made a whole lot more sense to me.
I think in life, we all face these kinds of moments. Ones where we have to stand up to a higher power and do what we know is right, even if we are scared of that outcome.
I have never taken any formal training in ethics . From what I understand [ please correct me if I'm wrong ]it is all qualitative info . If I'm correct there is no such thing as formal quantitative ethics [which would involve making choices like the lesser of 2 evils] .
OK thanks flame . I think I recall hearing a mention of Utilitarianism and Jeremy Bentham back in school . But that was being murmured about by the liberal arts majors I knew , not the fellow engineers ...
The Freedom of Choice is often times, an illusion. Frequently, we are met with choices that seem to be framed either by outside forces or by the dualism of life itself. In the last presidential election, faced with two candidates I felt were unqualified to be president, I opted for a third party. A person does not need to feel they are confined to picking the lessor of two evils.
Here is a quote by by Woody Allen that poignantly illustrates one of the absurdities of choice;
Many times we are also given false choices, such as; "If you don't support the presidents invasion of Iraq, you are a traitor."
In the case of Sgt York, (which I noticed you changed) it was not choice that lead him to achieve greatness, it was destiny or fate. Considering us humans are faced with thousands of choices each day, starting from whether or not to get out of bed, it really isn't choice but strength of character. Many people react without thinking, in order to save a life for example. Choice has little to do with that.
In court, an attorney asks; " Do you beat your wife everyday...Yes or No? " If you say no, you are still a wife beater because the given choices do not give you any other options.
Sometimes the best choice is not to chose at all.
I chose to not go to work today, but I had to anyway. So there goes my freedom of choice.
Personally, I don't believe in hell, or heaven, in the conventional way. If there is something more to life, I think it is more an evaluation of how we lived it. the ultimate punishment being that we realize the mistakes that we have made. But that is my belief, from things I have read when studying comparative religion.
I read your link and while I agree that much of what we as a society is taken from the traditional interpretation of the Abraham/Issac story, I am not sure if it could be applied to nuclear war or spanking children. While I agree that spanking is passed down from generation to generation, I don't think it had anything to do with this story. More the common idea that "spare the rod and spoil the child" comes to mind. It is ironic, that teachers control classes without spanking children, while parents can't. As a teacher, I controlled problem classes, without ever raising my hand. I think spanking comes from two things. We often raise our children the way we were raised, and frustration. I admit to spanking my kids a few times, but what I noticed was that sometimes, just the though of being punished was far more effective.
Actually, Hitler form his ideas in prison, where he wrote Mein Komph. One could argue that prison is where monsters are created, and do nothing to reform, but in fact breeds hate.
But I would have to agree that we have this "banality of evil" disease here in the States. All we have to remember is that evil happens when good people do nothing. I see a lot of nothing going on.
Buzz, ''stay true to your moral compass''. There are those that will criticize whatever decision you make. Pay them no mind, there are like a fly on an elephants ass.
I am proud of you brother.
You're right, Kavika, unfortunately in this world there are people who make their choice between being an asshole or a schmuck. The choice is said to bein favour of their desires.
''in favour of their desires''...Smile
To the Bobbsy Twins here - Churchy La Femme from Pogo gave advice to you: "Don't take life too serious, son. It ain't nohow permanent."
Let them wallow in their misery, Kavika. We're on the high road.
Does a bipolar disorder give you a choice between two poles?
You're welcome to take either way, A-P.
Gotta love Pogo and the gang. Words of wisdom.
Actually it is a due to severe time constraints . Engineering school is chock full of engineering . There is little time for much else . I was required to take some lib arts electives though but they were involved with more basic subject matter .
Buzz, you're a very fine gentleman, and I've very fortunate to know you!
We all have difficult choices to make-- hopefully not along the lines of Sophie's Choice. I think that most people that don't have to make choices don't pay much attention to anyone but themselves. For them, there is no choice, it is just what is best for THEM .
In any kind of a group dynamic, there are choices to be made. Do I hit this guy in the stomach without warning? Or do I pick a fight so I can hit him? Or, do I go my own way, and avoid confrontation...
I think you are a very good person, to even bring this up. Most of us have to sit on ourselves to be able to get along with others... Speaking from personal experience, of course.
Dowser, is there ANYONE who doesn't like you? I never saw such a thing both here and previously when I was a member of NV.
What principal is that Robert? You are complaining about censorship, yet you want to deny the author his right to take the article down.
You can see the article in many other places. You complaint rings hollow.
As usual your throwing shit at the wall to see what will stick.
The article ran it's course, so I closed it to comments with the intent to delete. Mainly because names where mentioned and no point in vilifying them. Besides you had time to make an objection, but I sill would have deleted it at some point.
If this is such a hot button for you, why don't you post an article on it Robert. You have that ''right'' you know. That way, no one but you can censor it. Is that something you would do, or just keep complaining about Buzz.
The ''Bizarro World'' is one that you seem to firmly anchored it Robert.
That is why Government be it Federal or State or local is supposed to see that the bill of rights is applied equally for everyone. Because we be it you or me is biased and would not always execute the law to see every one every religion, every Race, every ethnic group basically everyoneis treated the same way fairly.
''nice-Nazis'', as opposed to just plain Nazis. Which category are you in Robert?
Ah, we have a Don Quixote in our midst. Don't cry, Robert, you've exercised your rights, and Arch Man and I have exercised ours. I don't have the right to limit yours, and conversely, you don't have the right to limit mine, so why don't you just let it go? We've both made our points, and nobody's going to "win" so the time has come....
Robert I already gave you ananswerand the issue still bothers me but what do you want me to do archive the article?
To see the crack in the Liberty Bell, fitting that you would mention that.
I'm going to let you have the last word, Robert, as that seems to be your desire. I'm really tired of dealing with this issue. I posted this article to establish the fact that I had a hard choice to make, and I made the one that I identified as causing the least pain for others. Sorry if you didn't agree with my choice but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I bear no animosity - so fare thee well.
Tons of people are annoyed with me on a daily basis! But there is truly no one that I hate, just a few that I avoid...
Thanks, Buzz, you are very kind!
Our understanding is that I love you as a friend, no matter what.
You are very dear to me. We can't see eye to eye on everything! Your opinion has made me look at things a little differently. Truly! I'm still thinking on what I learned from that!