Ironically, Cuomos ban came after the federal EPA said there was no evidence that [fracking activities] have led to widespread, systemic impacts on drinking water resources in the United States.

Ironically, this statement is not based in fact, but the absence of fact. The Tobacco industry held this same strategy for decades and while they continued to suck the remaining profits and life out of a doomed industry. The end game was lung cancer for those whom provided that dwindling profit.

The named region of New York State, "The Southern Tier" of the Catskills, provides about fifty percent of New York Citys water. Through a complex system of reservoirs andaqueducts, NYC water is considered to be some of the finest in the US.Let that sink in a moment...

The politicos of this region have actually produced a glimmer of hope or at least semblance temporary sanity by protecting their own water. Any politician who would risk poisoning the water supply of so many registered voters is absolutely fucking nuts. A political "no-brainer"for even thedimmestbulb in NY state politics.

So, before you lay the economic suffering card down, remember this, there are other ways to bolster economic development. Ways that do not include poisoning your own water supply.

underground water knows no surface boundaries.

It's obvious that you're not a hydrogeologist. While aquifers frequently cut across state lines and our man-made boundaries, every hydrologic unit has boundaries, on all sides.

The problem with fracking is that it is inherently dangerous, blow outs occur, and there is no provision made for the migration of the fracking fluids along fault lines and lineaments that essentially can locally join separated hydrologic units. It also requires a great deal of fresh water to mix the chemicals, and inject them. When the chemical/water mixed is pumped out, there is no existing treatment strategy in place to treat the water and make it clean again.

Fracking doesn't create long-term jobs-- just short-term work. Once the fracking is completed and the well is operating, the people go away. There is nothing left to do but watch it. The people would be much better off to have long-term jobs that don't expose them to such toxic chemicals. Besides, do you want a bunch of untrained people performing the fracking tasks? I surely don't-- I want people who know exactly what they're doing out there!

Interesting that 150 towns in NY have voted for ''no fracking''....

Telling, too...

Here is the report on fracking.

nytimes

For the short term benefits it isn't worth the problems.

XX have you ever thought about why fracking companies are exempt from the ''clean water act'', it's called the ''Halliburton Loophole''...Why is it that fracking companies refuse to divulge what chemicals they are pumping into the ground?

In addition to contaminating our water supply, are you aware of the huge amounts of fresh water used to pump out the oil...

You really should do some investigating before parroting that line of nonsense.

''Those people really should secede.'' I guess that's your answer to everything.

So far I can see only one post on here that is wrong and that I disagree with. Guess which one.

There is no evidence that happens.

There is evidence, but you seem to ignore it. You need to read more XXJ. Please let me know, if you want some more. The citations are excerpted from the linked article:

Pennsylvania Finally Reveals Fracking Has Contaminated Drinking Wat... BY KATIE VALENTINE AUG 29, 2014 9:28AM

For the first time, Pennsylvania has made public 243 cases of contamination of private drinking wells from oil and gas drilling operations.

As the AP reports , Pennsylvanias Department of Environmental Protection posted details about the contamination cases online on Thursday. The cases occurred in 22 counties, with Susquehanna, Tioga, Lycoming, and Bradford counties having the most incidences of contamination.

New Research Documents Frackings Health Effects on Workers and Com...

October 20, 2014 EESI (Engineering and Energy Study Institute)

According to the National Institute for Occupational Health and Safety (NIOSH), workers at fracking locations for oil and gas are regularly exposed to high levels of benzene, which is a known carcinogen. When researchers from the agency, which is part of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, opened the hatches of these wells to inspect the tank and measured airborne benzene levels, the majority of the samples were over the 0.1 part per million (ppm) average concentration level recommended by NIOSH. Exposure to benzene is especially troubling because at high concentrations, benzene is poisonous to the nervous system, liver and kidneys, and can even affect normal cell activity. Dr. Robert Harrison, director of Occupational Health Services at the University of California San Francisco, said, "With the rapid expansion of oil and gas production in the U.S., [benzene exposure has risks] that we would want to pay attention to."

In a study published in the Journal of Occupational and Environmental Hygiene, the NIOSH researchers said that the benzene levels at the wells "reached concentrations that, depending on the length of the exposure, potentially pose health risks for workers." The results of this study are only one example of the numerous negative consequences to workers health in the oil and gas sector. For instance, during a typical two-hour shift, a worker will open the hatch of the well and stand directly over the opening between one and four times an hour. During this time, he will breathe in these toxic fumes for anywhere between two to five minutes. While no long-term studies on these workers have been conducted, the sum of all of these short periods of exposure adds up to a dangerously high level of exposure to the toxic chemicals that are used in the fracking process.

Review of Federal Hydraulic Fracturing Research Activities

April 26, 2013

Witness: Robin M. Ikeda, MD, MPH RADM, USPHS

(Excerpted here)

Good morning Chairwoman Lummis, Chairman Stewart and Members of the Subcommittees. Thank you for the opportunity to present this testimony. I am Dr. Robin Ikeda, Deputy Director of Noncommunicable Diseases, Injury and Environmental Health at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Currently, I am also serving as the Acting Director of CDCs National Center for Environmental Health (NCEH) and the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR).

I am pleased to represent the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) to provide you an update on the work being done across the Department related to hydraulic fracturing. HHS serves a supporting role in providing research and technical assistance on environmental and occupational safety and health risks. While programmatic work throughout the Department related to hydraulic fracturing activities is limited, staff resources and technical expertise are provided to support scientific discourse and collaboration on a range of potential health concerns.

NIOSH researchers will continue to partner with industry to conduct field-based exposure assessment studies to identify, characterize, and, if needed, recommend control measures. These assessments will involve evaluating exposure to potential contaminants that include benzene, other volatile organic compounds, lead, naturally occurring radioactive material, and diesel particulate matter. Other areas of research by NIOSH concerning the Oil and Gas Extraction Industry include injuries and fatalities from falls and fires and explosions during drilling and well servicing operations and motor vehicle safety. A common thread through all of this research is collaboration with industry partners and a focus on producing practical outputs to help protect workers, including training materials and informational products.

Can anyone believe that it is possible to lay down such a barrage of poisons on the surface of the earth without making it unfit for life?

~Rachel Carson; "Silent Spring"; 1962

Available on ibooks, Amazon et al.

As usual, you can't or won't answer the question. You just make accusations that have no foundation in reality.

"Hello wall, meet Kavika."

LOL

Thanks for your comment Dowser . Fortunately there is an answer to satisfy even an anti-fracking geologist . I seeded a piece about it a while back . Do you want to see a link ?

Well said One!

A fish should be very interested in where the bowl is filled up, no?

Maybe it is my destiny to NOT make this post. I've tried 3 times... but I will try again:

Fracking can hurt the drinking water supplies, and very easily. The video below has been produced by the oil and gas industry, so it glosses over some of the inherently dangerous practices from hydraulic fracturing. That being said, it does discuss the process in a clear manner...

Ok, so what are some of the problems that are glossed over? First, the well drilling fluids are water based, naturally fresh water based. So they are using potential drinking water supply water to mix the mud and other chemicals used in fracking. How much water is that? It is estimated that the initial drilling operation uses around 6,000 gallons of fresh water at the onset, but will require up to 5 MGD to maintain and rejuvenate the well over the course of the lifetime of an oil or gas well. Link To someplace like KY that has plenty of fresh water, that isn't that much. But to someplace that is having a problems meeting the required amounts of drinking water to sustain the population, that is a LOT. Like CA, for instance.

Secondly, drilling fluids used in oil and gas drilling are very different from those used to drill water wells. Water wells are not allowed to be drilled with anything that may contaminate the aquifer, or increase the chance of bacterial infestation of the well or the formation. Oil and gas wells are typically drilled with a mixture of bentonite, strong lye, polymers to add viscosity, and other toxic materials that are used to add weight to the fluid column. The weight is needed to prevent blowout of the well. The boots of the drillers rarely last more than a month, as the drilling fluid literally eats the boots off their feet. Hardly non-toxic.

Next: Shale oil and gas wells are typically 1 mile or more beneath the surface, well below any drinking water aquifers... Here in KY, the shale wells are usually in the Devonian formations, the formations at 1 mile below the surface are called basement rocks-- granite, etc. formed when the planet formed. The Devonian formations are about 1500'-2000' deep, and have been previously drilled extensively.

Basement rocks vary in depth from at the surface, in eastern Canada to very deep, in the Gulf of Mexico. So, while this is a typical depiction of an oil and gas well, it is disingenuous in that it portrays basement rock as being below 1 mile or more in depth. It isn't always.

Most fresh drinking water supplies are located in aquifers that are, many times, less than 1000' deep. However, is special consideration given to fresh water drinking supplies that are located up to or greater than 1000'? Such as the Ogalla aquifer in Kansas? This is the aquifer that many hundreds of thousands of people rely on for their drinking water. Not being conversant in KS geology, I can't say how deep their fracking wells are drilled, but I do know that a couple of weeks ago, a friend of mine had to drill 1200' into the deep rock aquifer to find fresh drinking water supplies...

Steel casing is installed, and "grouted" in, in order to seal off the upper aquifers from the fluids/gases below. This is great, really. But, even in shallow water wells, there is no guarantee that the formations haven't "bridged" behind the bit, (which is free to run up and down the hole), preventing the grout from being even. Not only that, but you can't pour concrete at a height greater that 3' in water wells, so I would imagine, it is the same concrete, mixed with bentonite, that is used in the oil/gas industry. So, the grouting must be applied from the bottom up, and hopefully, running the grouting pipe down beside the casing and the open bore hole doesn't loosen up something that can "bridge" or become wedged between the casing and the side of the boring. I know we have had a lot of trouble with pressure grouting water wells at depths greater than 300'.

During the past 60 years, the oil and gas industry has completed fracturing in over one million wells world wide . Up until the late 1980s fracking consisted of putting dynamite in an open hole below the casing and using electronics to blow it up. Slowly, this process has developed into the nightmares we have today. They had some unexpected problems with fracking wells drilled into lineaments. Lineaments have a tendency to collapse when fracked, stopping up the well and the hole, reducing the production in the well. They also had some problems with wells drilled along or near buried faults.

Geology is such that something that was warped and faulted in the Devonian is worn down and deposited over in the Pennsylvanian, further broken in the Triassic, etc. We really have no good idea what is down there, actually. Sonic charges are good to a point, as are electric bursts, but, unless you actually drill, you just don't know. There are all kinds of faults, including growth faults, where the 'hanging wall' collapses on top of the slipped wall, and more materials deposited over it, etc. Some of them are dead, and some of them are being brought to life again, due to fracking activities...

I know you're already tired of this, and I can go on and on about the misrepresentations in just this video... The technical stuff that you don't want to hear or care about... But, suffice it to say that none of my questions have been answered about the location of lineaments in a 4 mile diameter around a fracking well, the faults that are in the deeper rocks, the locations of abandoned oil and gas wells from previous attempts-- especially from back when the standard method of abandoning a well was to stuff a pine tree down its casing...

You say it will help the poor. I have a hard time with that, too.

Drilling an oil and gas well requires skilled labor and professionals. The only position available for unskilled labor, would be roughneck on an oil well. The tool pushers are trained, those that operate the rig are well-trained, the truck drivers are trained in hazardous materials transport, the welders, the backhoe operators, dozer operators, electricians, demolitions experts, the geologists, the engineers, etc. Someone with a marketable skill is not "of the poor", I wouldn't think.

I'm NOT being mean or ugly to you, but, I know better...

Toxic water, light match - fried fish.

The newly proposed technology will eliminate those problems ... but I guess you're not interested .

Then, ban fracking until those newly proposed technologies are in place, Petey.

I stopped at 1:41 on the video. I could have gone on, much longer...

1:41 on what video ?

No one wants to address what the lack of energy leads to. Poverty.

When was the last time this happened?

No one wants to address that the lack of water leads to death. Short term gains with a huge price tag in the long run.

Just visit most 3rd world countries ... little energy , lots of poverty .

Then we would really need Kavika.

No one wants to address that the lack of water leads to death.

Drinking toxic water leads there too or at least very sick.

I agree.

OK , here ya go :

thenewstalkers

Feel free to post comments there if you are so moved .

I appreciate your participation . The direct relevance to your thread is that supercritical CO2 can be used to extract shale oil instead of fracking water . The result would not impose any danger to drinking water or groundwater . And the CO2 has a value of its own worth collecting rather than a pollutant as climatologists see it .

The whole of this article is based on a faulty premise: It assumes the money from the gas production is being taken away from or removed after the fact, when the access to said money is merely hypothetical. To Wit, the headline:

NY Fracking Ban Is Literally Impoverishing Rural Towns

If the towns are impoverished, it is not because of the ban on fracking, it is because they are small towns and don't have the population/tax base to support them. So, no, the ban is not causing them any less of an income stream than they have.

The video posted above.

What is coming, technology wise, isn't here yet. While the new technologies may be great and take care of those questions I would like to have answered, they are not in practice at this time...

Uh, there are laws against slant drilling into other areas where one doesn't own the mineral rights. As an example, I can't drill a well in my backyard and directional drill it up under my neighbor's yards, unless I have purchased the mineral rights from my neighbor.

Do you have water on your property? How would you feel if your neighbor directional drilled into your water, and took it all?

Also, they can drill about 15,000'. So, the most they could access of Florida's oil would be about 2 miles, or about 10,000'. ROUGH estimate...

What XX doesn't understand is that NYS has a different tax system than California. We are not centralized. Each municipality gets a small amount of funding from the state ( that comes from the federal gov), but then decides how much local taxes will be. This is decided by how much the people can afford. If you have no tax base to begin with, there is very little money coming into the towns.

XX,

You have no idea what you are talking about. There are plenty of upstate towns that are doing fine. We are mostly an agricultural state with a ski industry. Most of our state has unity. No matter where you are, there are a few places who will be unhappy. You probably don't even realize how many upstate large towns and cities there are that are doing well. As a matter of fact, what do you know about NYS?

Don't compare your obsession with how your state is run, with ours.

If they were really ''jack boot thugs'' in the city, they would have squished your head.

NYS-

National Youth Sports,NYS started as a small Arizona company over 20 years ago. Its mission, To serve the youth, the family and the community through participation in youth sports.

The mission of all of our programs is to strengthen the individual, the family, and the community through participation in youth sports. Each program is centered around sportsmanship and emphasizes fun and the importance of fair play.

They fail to reveal their secret agenda of impoverishing rural New Yorkers through a complex ban of fracking and the implications to their Pennsylvania counter-parts.

Well, I wont deny that California as a government and urban area sucks more than any other state in the union.

..arbitrary fracking ban imposed from the Capitol...

Look up the Delaware River Basin Commission before you spit pseudo facts.

Where I live in Calufornia we are totally used to it in rural areas our necks being under the jack boot thugs in far off cities.

Where? I have been to most of the big cities in California and, outside of some people wearing them for kinky reasons, I have never seen anyone, politicians included, with them on.

The idea that Northern California is going to split of from the South and become it's own state has been a fantasy of some for many, many years. It has never come close to happening and won't in the foreseeable future. It does make an interesting hobby, like say, HAM radio or building model boats and is less destructive then trophy hunting in Africa or other such hobbies, but that's all it is or will be in any of our lifetimes. A hobby.

LOL, I think XX missed this one Joey. Over the head so to speak.

Well, I wont deny that California as a government and urban area sucks more than any other state in the union.

CFDA [link]

Agriculture is a major industry for the Golden State. With 80,500 farms and ranches, California agriculture is a $46.4 billion dollar industry that generates at least $100 billion in related economic activity. [ CDFA's Mission ]

This enormous achievement is possible through a combination of tradition and innovation that has secured California's status as the most productive agricultural state for more than 50 years. Farmers and ranchers blend old-fashioned notions of patience and perseverance with cutting-edge technologies and advanced agricultural practices. The result is a highly adaptable and diverse industry encompassing more than 350 plant and animal commodities.

Undeniably poor.

Report: Agriculture in N.Y. is booming industry

Joseph Spector, Gannett Albany (N.Y.) Bureau 7:28 p.m. EST March 3, 2015

ALBANY, N.Y. Agriculture contributed $37 billion to New York's economy in 2012, up 22% from 2007, a report released Tuesday found.

The state has put a renewed focus on its farms as New York has become the nation's leader in yogurt production and as its wines received greater praise and attention.

Indeed, New York ranks in the top 10 in the nation for milk and other dairy production, as well as wine, apples and maple syrup, the report from ComptrollerThomas DiNapolifound.

Very slow in accounting too.

It will happen... Unless the greater state of Texas prevails in getting the supreme court to reverse a 1964 ruling that made the federal representation system somehow unconstitutional for the states to do. Not sure the details of the case Texas has but it challenges that ruling. The Ca. legislature in both hoses criticized the court for taking the case but we in Jefferson proudly stand with Texas against you all on yet another issue. If Texas prevails and we go back to pre 1964 representation where the senate really is a senate again rather than a double district, half sized assembly, we will drop all efforts at creating the state of Jefferson. A federal representation arrangement was all we really wanted in the first place. Then the assembly will be by population and the 40 senate seats will represent the 56 counties, some representing two adjacent small pop. counties. If we prevail at the supreme court, a lot of big blue states will be happy to be rid of their more conservative rural regions and then we wont want to go.

If that is what you choose to believe, it is certainly your right to be wrong.

But you're not a low population state. In fact you're not a state at all. You're a collection counties in California. The SCOTUS is not going to over-ride states rights on this for California. Become a state and then you'll get representation. Until then your representation comes goes to and comes from Sacramento. Just like mine.

Not likely though.

They won't be here for a while . They take a major change in technology . Using supercritical CO2 requires a different approach to technology and attitudes towards CO2 ...

Thank you, Dowser. Your perspective is highly appreciated as you have vast amounts of experience in the field of hydrogeology. I think that they (the energy companies) have made vast steps toward knowing the subsurface geology with some very sophisticated subsurface mapping techniques over the past decade or so. Hopefully, these higher resolution techniques in conjunction with collaboration between the hydrogeological and petrological communities can find ways to achieve the ends of both.

That would be great!

I remember seeing the results of seismic studies, and there, as in put your finger on it, was a growth fault within the Rough Creek Fault system-- covered over by Pennsylvanian deposits. They were hoping that the growth fault would act as a trap. It didn't...

Are you saying that hydrogeology is junk science?

Surely not!

It is the decision of lord Cuomo dictator of New York who forced the rest of the local governments to do likewise even though they wanted to have an economy. That's the real issue here.

No what is at issue here is a local area wanting to impact on water for an entire region. Sorry, they don't get to to do that. I'll tell you what you say to a lot of other poor people. Pick up your butts and move to where the jobs are, or be create your own.

Do you know how childish you sound with the ''lord, dictator, jack boot thugs'' and all the other nonsense that you post. If you want to be taken seriously start speaking like an adult XX.

And just what is "real hydrogeology"? Or is anything that doesn't agree with your philosophical viewpoint not real?

Hydrogeologists, who do not work for oil companies, are terrified of fracking fluids entering our groundwater supplies... It might be in all of our interests to be a bit more careful-- make sure the oil companies are actually doing it right, not shoddily, like at the BP Deepwater Horizon wells.

You're kidding right?

Yeah, gotta agree with you Kavika. I don't like everything Gov. Cuomo does, but he isn't alord, dictator, jack boot thug anymore than the rest of the idiotgovernorsaround the USA.

If you get any response it will be a "neener, neener, I can't hear youuuu response".

And Cuomo doesn't reign supreme over the Delaware River Basin. It's a four state commission (DRBC) with the federal government engineers. He may have made it look like it was his decision, but NJ, PA, DE and the US Army Corps of Engineers had inputs too.

He says the same things about Jerry Brown out here n CA. Of course, even though he wants his part of the state to break away from CA, being a citizen of CA and America gives him the right to complain about him. Personally I like Jerry Brown and am sure Gavin Newsome is going to be a good Governor too. That said I didn't like Arnie, but if I had called him a "Jack booted thug" who would have taken the rest of my comment seriously? First of all because he wasn't. I just didn't like his polices or really even him.

I know I'm no angel and have called some politicians names, but at least I am trying to reform myself.

xx, it may have already been said here but I suggest you read Dowser's excellent article on the effects of fracking on the water supply. It is very informative.

It's one thing to mindlessly seed articles with titles that seem to support your stubborn right-wing views. It's quite another to actually understand the content of the articles. Just a suggestion.

With your continued rhetoric, about jack boot thugs and the like, it seems you don't want to be treated like an adult. Which is fine with me XX. Continue on and make a complete ass out of yourself.

XX, the article was published by the American Water Works Association, and represents all the different kinds of water professionals-- it really is a fair and balanced approach to fracking. I think you would find it interesting, truly!