Cold War Kids Drawing Red Lines
By Perrie Halpern
I was born in 1960 in Brooklyn, NY, a child of the Cold War, a child of a Korean War vet. Cold War kids were hard to kill. We were survivors. They taught us to "duck and cover" and to locate the nearest air raid shelters. We were taught about the Domino Theory and that the USSR was bent on world domination. For the first 14 years of my life, I only knew war. I watched on TV as young men were brought back in body bags and listened to the daily numbers of dead and wounded. I never looked away, No one did. It was part of life. We wore bracelets with the names of dead and the MIA , all assuming that by the time I got to 18 our friends would be going off to war. That wasn't to be. The Vietnam War ended but the Cold War went on.
In the 1970's, terrorism seemed like the new rage. It was all around us. Not grand acts of terrorism, but like dozens of mosquitoes biting at you. It was hard to ignore. Groups like the FALN, Black September, and The Weather Underground filled our papers and our airwaves. Even my summers spent in London, were not peaceful. We found ourselves either running out of Tube stations or busy shops because of IRA bomb threats and bombings. But I was a Cold war kid, and these events just marked the days as we went on with our lives. We cascaded from bombings, to hijackings to Oil Crisis, to the Iranian Hostage Crisis in a New York minute.
Then 1980 came around, and we had a new President. He looked around the world and decided that all of the worlds troubles could be over if we could just bring the USSR down to its knees. And so began the arms race. For the first time in my life, I found myself nervous. Terms like Assured Mutual Destruction, Strategic Defense Initiative, Nuclear Winter became part of the everyday vernacular. But while I spent sleepless nights listening to Sting sing "I hope the Russians love their children, too", there was a war going on thousands of miles away in the poppy fields of Afghanistan. The Russians long standing relationship with Afghanistan was being threatened by a new movement, called the Mujahideen. America saw this as the Soviet's Achilles Heal and went about aiming to that sweet spot. We spent billions of dollars in both weapons and training, which would become one of the CIA's longest covert operations in our nation's history. But we accomplished what we set out to do. We turned the Afghans into a mighty force and the war had been so costly to the Soviets, that it brought them to their knees. By the time Ronald Reagan issued his challenge to Soviet Union's leader Mikhail Gorbachev to "Tear down this wall!" the USSR as I grew up knowing was almost gone. For the first time in my life, the Cold War was over and the world was safe.
It would take less than 20 years to realize that our perceived safety was just an illusion and that we had created a monster. Intoxicated by the poppies of Afghanistan, no one noticed the Pakistanis aiding a group of war lords that would become the Taliban or that the Mujahideen had mutated into Al Qa'ida. It wasn't until the day of the first attempt on the World Trade Center, that we realized that the terrorism of the 1970's had mutated and was no longer pesky mosquitoes, but hives of very large angry hornets. I was in New York the day that the towers came down, bewildered by the magnitude of hate that had to cause the attack. Who would have thought it happened thousands of miles away from a country that we had helped years earlier? Who knew that we had miscalculated so badly and that our need to rid ourselves of one enemy would create yet another?
We are a nation that likes making strong statements; "Stop Em At the 38th Parallel", and "Drawing a line in the sand". So it came as no surprise when President Obama made his statement to Syria, that they would be "Crossing the Red Line" if Assad uses chemical weapons on his citizens. But parallels are lines and lines in the sand tend to shift, and so we are now at one of the worst cross roads since World War II. When and where to act and whether our actions wise? We balk at the idea of taking aggressive actions on Iran's nuclear program, yet we are faced with a vestige from the Cold War from a young madman in Korea who reminds us what happens when the bomb gets into the wrong hands. So we wait to see what China will do about Kim Jong-un as he holds missile testing and while our allies to the south grow more nervous by the day.We issue empty threats and sanctions to Iran in the hope it will curb their nuclear ambitions, while we hope that the Israelis make the first move. We threaten Assad with "Red Lines" but had no plan ready when he did. We are willing to aid Syrian rebels who want to take out Assad, but if they succeed they will be replaced by Islamic extremists supported by Iran, who will then be added to our enemies. We have already seen proof of this in countries like Egypt and Libya.
What has brought us to this point? How did we become so impotent? Cold War kids grew up and we discovered that we really weren't as tough as we thought we were. We got a legacy of problems that we don't have the stomach to deal with. We look at the past mistakes and become frozen that we will be blamed for our actions in the future. And we are reminded of our impotence, when it only took two young men from Chechnya, to cause chaos in our country from a poison ideology that spread from the Afghan War. We were helpless to stop them, despite billions of dollars we spend on counter terrorism. Yes, it's a brave new world out there, and the caretakers are tired old Cold War kids.
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Charlie Wilson was a very wise man. He warned everyone what would happen if we didn't keep a positive presence inAfghanistan. No one wanted to listen.
Actually, I think the flaw in American thinking is that democracy is for everyone. All you have to do is look at Russia. It took it's go at democracy and now is back to anauthoritativegovernment, who embracescapitalism, which isn't the same thing as a democracy. The fact is, that every time we do something, we don't think of the end game, just immediate gratification.
I agree that it's time to stop sending our youth in to die. We never see that we are being used.
As fortolerance... rarely works out that it'sappreciated.
By far, that was our biggest mistake. I am not sure if it was the oil they expected or revenge, but by taking out Hussein, we created avacuumof power. They were the ones who kept Iran in check. Without them, Iran has run amok.
I believe there is a reason for that. There are cultures that just need a parent figure. I think that Russia is one of them. They also like to feel strong ( who doesn't) and Putin gave them back that again.
The problem in theCaucasus, has been going on for well over 100 years. If they Russia can't figure out what to do with them, who would? They know theChechenmindset. We don't. After WWII, the Stalin tried to starve them to death for siding with the Germans, yet they still are here. That tells you a lot about a people.
I don't know, the Monroe Doctrine worked for a while, then the world went to hell in a handbasket-what would have happened if we stayed on the sidelines of WW1 and WW2?
As Perrie said, I think we need to do far more strategic thingking rather than tactical thinking when discussing involving ourselves in other parts of the world.
Terrific article, Perrie! I am a cold war kid too, like you, and I stand by looking from the outside in sometimes, wondering what we have accomplished at all and whether we are going in circles instead of forward, or maybe even going backwards.
Spot on. And now there are no good answers.
Well, I guess we are going to have to disagree about the Russians. They have had over 1000 years of oppression and submitting to it. I doubt it would end in a couple of generations. There is nothing in their past that would indicate that they know what to do with real independence. They know how to game a system, but that is about it.
As for the Caucasus, I do agree. They are for sure grudge holders.. and very strong willed.
Yeah, but they're stuck with us for awhile. Just like we are stuck with a lot of things, too...
I've always wondered what we, the Boomers, would do when we got into power and could make decisions. Funny, it seems that people are just people-- and we're pretty much the same.
The attitude is I've got mine, screw you-- the attitude of Let's Blame Someone Else, no matter how much it's obviously our fault... That's what seems to be happening.
"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."
Maybe we need a little more of that, and a little less of the Me-Generation.
Great article, Perrie!
Yup. The problem is we have knee jerk reactions to things. This only makes us looker weaker. Yes, it is horrible that Assad is using chemical weapons, but if you say you are going to draw a red line, you better have a plan of action, otherwise you look weak.
But that has been the problem with all our policy. We don't play it like a well thought out game of chess, but more like checkers.
Unfortunately we did such a good job that they are bringing us to our knees too, and no end in sight.
Interesting quotes Mac. Food for thought, although I believe that is what Watts intended to do.
I think we can look aback and play Monday morning quarterback, but the problem is where do we go from here. We know where we messed up, but do we have a cure? Picking and choosing our problems and acting on them, is the most difficult part of this.
How did we win? We have the DMZ and a madman at the helm of N. Korea. We have Russia, who by any other name is still the USSR (Putin is ex- KGB and seems pretty much to always win.. oh and let's not forget radioactive reporters). Egypt is about to end it's peace treaty with Israel and the whole ME has gone to hell in a hand basket.
You mean we didn't blow up enough stuff inAfghanistanand Iraq? You know sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you get... as well demonstrated by Iraq. Who keeps Iran in check now? The UN? That's funny.
AndLibyais a little country that knew well enough when not to hit back. Big mouths with nothing behind it. So big deal.
And we can thank Reagan for teaching the Taliban everything it knows now. How did that work out for us? Again.. let's try to remember what Charlie Wilson warned about.
Well there I agree. We also should have supported the Kurds as we promised, but we didn't. A good way to create enemies is to tell friends that you have their back and then not be there when they need you. How many ten's of thousands died?
Such a charming way with words. Kind of forgot a few events though,Somalia, or that the US lead the bombing of Yugoslavia, or that he ordered a crusemissileattack of Baghdad, or Operation Desert Strike, to name a few, so it seems like he was a bit busy. I am not sure if it did any good.
We transitioned from a nation of kick-ass name takers to progressive hand-holding pussies who think a chorus of Kumbaya will solve all our problems.
Don't buy that. Still in Iraq, still inAfghanistan, kicking ass. As for "Violence does solve problems", as with most things in life, if done in careful contemplation and in the right measure.
Oh for sure. If the boomers were left a new world order from the WWII, at least webelievedin service. The generations coming up are all about themselves, and in that one has to wonder where we will go from here.
Zackly 96. How does one wipe out hives of hornets world wide?
Bruce, Do you know how close we came to being the cause of WWIII through the ineptitude of the Reagan administration? Go research: Project Ryan, Fleetex83, and Project Perimeter, and put the pieces together. Hell, our little stunts during Fleetex83 are the cause of KAL007 being shot down with 269 dead. We may not have pushed the button, but we pushed the Soviets into it.
Yes.... I was on the Enterprise during Fleetex83 getting to fly both ASW patrols, and ELINT missions around the clock. I know you didn't absorb that many free neutrons to know that we are lucky to be alive.
You were born in 60, I in 82. About 2+ generations apart....and human life still persists, against its own inherent demons, as it was meant too...destined to.
What has brought us to this point? How did we become so impotent?
1)We let our greed get take control of our thought process (think Arab oil).
2)We slowly marginalized ourselves on the world stage by letting the Third World dictate morality (think UN).
3)We continued to fight wars in uniform with large weapons against people without uniforms who hide behind women and children (think every war since Vietnam).
4)We continue to send billions of dollars to nations filled with people who hate us.
5)We tap dance around Radical Islam, pretending that this is not the destabilizing force in the world today.
6)We bicker amongst ourselves, ruining our fiscal house, while the world watches and waits for us to swirl in the bowl.
That's all I got right now.
Your article reminds me very much of the lyrics to Billy Joel's "Leningrad"
Viktor was born in the spring of '44
And never saw his father anymore
A child of sacrifice, a child of war
Another son who never had a father after Leningrad
Went off to school and learned to serve the state
Followed the rules and drank his vodka straight
The only way to live was drown the hate
A Russian life was very sad
And such was life in Leningrad
I was born in '49
A cold war kid in McCarthy time
Stop 'em all at the 38th Parallel
Blast those yellow reds to hell
And cold war kids were hard to kill
Under their desks in an air raid drill
Haven't they heard we won the war
What do they keep on fighting for?
Viktor was sent to some Red Army town
Served out his time, became a circus clown
The greatest happiness he'd ever found
Was making Russian children glad
And children lived in Leningrad
But children lived in Levittown
And hid in the shelters underground
Until the Soviets turned their ships around
And tore the Cuban missiles down
And in that bright October sun
We knew our childhood days were done
And I watched my friends go off to war
What do they keep on fighting for?
And so my child and I came to this place
To meet him eye to eye and face to face
He made my daughter laugh, then we embraced
We never knew what friends we had
Until we came to Leningrad
If only the solution were as simple as the last verse!
Thanks for the glowing review RM! I am glad to have you as a friend, also
Rare to meet a young person so bleak, or realistic, Aeon.BTW, a generation is defined by 15 year periods... so I am about 1.5 generations from you. Please, I don't need to feel so old, LOL.
Lucy,
Wow... very strongparallelsto that song. That song is quite old now and much has happened since it was written. Sad that not much has changed.
Isn't that the big question? I would like to say to live and learn things that can only be done is a corporal way. But then again, what do I know?
6)The current internal political situation is destabilizing the nation on many fronts, not the least of which is our financial house. We are watching relatively sensible legislation being voted down because of political division. We are allowing monetary policy to do what fiscal policy would do far more effectively. And we are showing our lack of patriotism far more publicly than is good for us in the eyes of the world. We are weakening, and we are showing those weaknesses. We are crumbling from the inside. The end is not nigh, but you can see a clear progression, and that "progress" is on a downward slope.
Let's look at your hero Reagan. He taught theMujahideen everything they know now, including the American mind set, which in itself was a useful tool that they now use against us and got us to where we are today. And you can't nuke N. Korea. They will nuke their neighbors if they think the end is near, hence why we can't let Iran get the bomb. And yes the Israelis took out Iraq's facilities which is what I think we are waiting for now.
There will never be another war like Vietnam or for that matter WWII. There is too much in the way of media and no one wants to see that. The idea thatcollateraldamage is OK is gone.
Not so sure. The idea that cutting off the head of the beast would end it all, kind of is proving not true, as we just saw 10 days ago. This monster has a lot of heads.
Maybe it has something to do with the footage that we got to seeimmediatelyand then made into a movie. No one wants to see our boys being dragged dead through the streets ofMogadishu. Not saying that I agree, but hard PR to get around. I'm ignoring the rest of your partisan nastiness.
My cousin is there, too and they are supposed to be drawing down, right? And this ending was inevitable from the moment we decided to do nation building there instead of just going in and getting the job done, and two presidents who felt the need to pay offKarzai.
Agree with some of that:
And we have done this since Vietnam:
This is a bit grim but there is an element of truth to it.
We are weakening, and we are showing those weaknesses. We are crumbling from the inside. The end is not nigh, but you can see a clear progression, and that "progress" is on a downward slope.
EI,
Monetary policy iseconomic policy, as promulgated by the Federal Reserve.
Fiscal policy is economic policy, as promulgated by the Legislative branch of government.
Monetary and fiscal policy are BOTH economic policy.
None of us knows "why the journey"! We are here and we have to make our way and each generation learns something, but for the next generation, the lessons have to be learned again. After all, if those bent on destroying the world for their selfish reasons, their "holy" or unholy causes haven't learned from the history of past events as recent as the last century, what does it speak of mankind's ability to learn from experience? Or history? It isn't just us, the children of the cold war. I think it goes far back and will go much beyond us. What, indeed, do we really know? I know it sounds grim. I think it is grim.
Sad indeed. That song was on his "Stormfront" album, in 1989, the year I graduated high school, the year the Berlin Wall was torn down. Billy was among the first American performers to be allowed to play a concert in Russia after that. There was much hope at that point, that the Cold War was over..... Our government has now become the very thing we were taught to despise about the Soviets, and I believe it will meet the same fate, far to corrupt and power-hungry to maintain itself.
Actually the way I see it, Iraq kept that whole area of the world in check. Saddam Hussein was like a big guard dog as bad as he may have been. Little difference with Muammar Gaddafi in Libya and Mubarak in Egypt. If we had not been involved in any of these, things would be a lot different today. Personally I believe we have brought on more problems than we've solved.
Well I agree with that assessment, six. But the horse is out of the barn, and now we have to figure out what to do... but not a quick fix in the short run.
Perrie, I enjoyed this article. Thank you! First, you clarified for me that period of time involving the Mujahideen. I recall this coming up in the past and you discussing it on the 'vine, but not as much detail was discussed at that time. Now I understand that the "movement" was the reason for our CIA involvement in helping them take down the Soviets. Also, you caused me to see how living on the east coast in those times would have been so different that from here on the west coast. I had never heard of any of those organizations you mentioned: FALN, Black September, and only fairly recently, the Weather Underground. There was no fear here; it's as if the east coast was living in a foreign land when I think about your words. There were no preparations or speeches for war or disaster. Life went on pretty much the same day after day here. This was quite an enlightenment, and I can see the false sense of security and the later painful realization of the illusion-- to the bitter reality of helping these nations only means helping the enemy succeed. It's a rock and a hard place scenario, with no answers on the horizon for us.
Lucy,
I find it so strange how some read this article and feel that America lost it's way by being too weak and others read it and feel America lost it's way by being too power hungry. I view it as if America took a wrong turn with that tired old man we elected.
I'm a bit older than Perrie...and I remember being taught in school to duck under our desks if we had an emergency broadcast warning...and even as a kid, I knew that damn desk wasn't going to do squat to protect me if Castro sent a missile to Florida.
JFK and Bay of Pigs was my introduction to American politics...I just wasn't old enough or smart enough to understand it then.
Hi CL,
During that period of the Soviet war with theMujahideen, I became obsessed with what was going on there. I was in college, and would read everything I could get my hands on. My mother, who was born in the USSR had said that theAfghans were a people that had tenacity and vengeance and that it was a mistake to inject ourselves into their business. But the idea of Islamicextremestwas far from anyone's mind. Still, anything that had to do with Russia, made me nervous.
But yes we all had some false sense ofsecurityonce the Berlin Wall came down (ironically, my maiden name is Berlin),and yes I would have to agree that right now we are between a rock and a hard place.
Yeah, that duck and cover thing, Merleiz, is rather funny when looking back at it. My father was still in the service at the time of the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban Missile crisis, and my mother who had just become an American wondered often, if she made it through a war, escaping both Russia and then Poland, a sinking ship, and life in London, to end up dying here.
Gee, what does one say to that? I hope that we surprise ourselves.
I've read every word right up to this comment. It has been very enlightening and interesting to read each of your interpretations of the past 40 to 50 years and why we are where we are today.
I say the same people that hated us 40 or 50 years ago are the same ones that hate us today and nothing we could have done would have changed that.
The biggest difference in my opinion is 50 years ago we were all islands unto ourselves for the most part. The leaders, dictators or whatever the case had a whole lot less people to deal with in their respective countries.
We were much more naive than we are now. In my youth you settled your disagreements after school over by the soda shop, the rifles stayed in the window in the back of the truck. The last one standing was the declared winner and more often than not the winner and loser became good friends.
Today we hear every little thing that happens either on the news channels which are quite confusing since every channel has a different interpretation of the events and the after school fights may end up with someone dead.
Life was simple growing up.
Perrie, my parents didn't have any European experiences, and my Grandparents never spoke of the old country, Europe and Italy, so I didn't have the early exposure as you. Then when the Afghan ordeal was going on during my life, there wasn't much focus on it here, actually world affairs were never the focus... that's probably why I like reading about some of it now.
...Thank you for sharing what your parents' experienced, and what life was like in NY at that time. It was interesting!
Bruce
I've read it half a dozen times. I have both the hard cover and paperback on my shelf, and am about due to read it again here. We were getting techincal data about missile tests and submarine deployment data, But it wasn't in real time as the recording devices had to be changed out.
Two books for you.
"Dead Hand" By David E. Hoffman/2009 (this one will make you regular!)
"The Cold War, A New History" By John L. Gaddis/2006
During Fleetex83, if we weren't working on the birds, or on patrol, we SENSOs and the TACCOs were living in the ASW module off of CIC, trading information with the attack boats to coordinate hand-offs up in the waters outside Petropavlovsk. There were two fast attack skippers along with two Sonarmen working with us in the module during the exercise. Very unusual to have them there, all of us working around the clock.
The water was thick with subs, and the air was full of aircraft 24-7. We had started deployment of the Pershing II and Cruise Missiles in Europe by this time, so tensions were very high. Even the lifers at the time said they had never experienced such a high pucker-factor. Then what do we get orders to do...... a flipping "cold nose" drill!
We've got Bears Flying around us almost every hour snapping pictures, and a Soviet Kara Class Cruiser, in close contact never more than 2500 yards off to starboard. What are we doing..... practicing loading those weapons that you cannot confirm nor deny existed. One slip up, one misjudgement, and things were going to go real shitty real quick. All because it was decided we were going to show Ivan that we could fly and sail anywhere we wanted. With three carriers, it was the largest battle-group the Navy had assembled since WWII. Then we start a cold nose drill. Like we needed to give the Russians anything more to be paranoid about.
CL, there is also the fact that the world over on the other side was more remote - how many Americans might have known anything about it, or the Mujahideen? Only in so far as Russia was concerned, and what Russia was doing, was of interest to the US. All of it was seen with an iron curtain shielding it, with an oblique vision, and with apprehension and fear, on both sides. Now, if we don't see it, there is something wrong with us! With the tools of technology and the global access to distant places, we have no excuse to not know or not see or not understand. Unless of course, we don't want to.
I have said this before, but I suppose it is something that cannot be said enough: I have lived my 61 plus years either in a state of, or under the threat of war, I am weary of it.
Perhaps it is past the time for us to mind our own business, allow other Countries to screw themselves up just as we have. Once we have achieved perfection, then we can tell others how to live.
One doesn't.
Randy,
As I have gotten older, I have come to the conclusion that not every society is a good fit with democracy. They are authoritative societies, so what happens is that they replace one dictator, or a Mullah that dictates to them. Same thing is Russia and China. They want a father figure. Stalin was a brutal dictator, yet hundreds of thousands piled in to look at his dead body and cry. Now there is a big hint to a society.
As for us, I believe in the "Butterfly Effect". Had we never involved ourselves inAfghanistanin the first place, I truly believe none of this would have happened. But we will never know.
CL,
My pleasure!
Some for sure. China and Russia are not really our allies. We just play at it.Afghanistanwouldn't have known we were here, until maybe 10 years ago.. when they finally got internet connections in Kabul. The M/E would have probably perked along as it had.
The biggest difference in my opinion is 50 years ago we were all islands unto ourselves for the most part. The leaders, dictators or whatever the case had a whole lot less people to deal with in their respective countries.
I would agree with that.
I would agree with that, too.
Egilman,
You leave me with that? I am sitting on the edge of my chair like a cliff hanger in a movie.
If you don't mind, I am so curious to hear your opinions, could you email them to me?
When I write an article (when I have the time), I do it not with a specific agenda, but to get feed back, and I must say, now I am dying to read yours. I will not be offended, if that is what you think. Really, very little offends me, other than being called names, LOL.
Well, I tend to agree with that. I think we should start with Syria.
I happen to agree. I think our expectations are about democracy has changed. The bar has been lowered as we are forced to deal with a global world as we try to fit a square peg into a round hole.
I agree too. But how is the US supposed to extricate itself now? We are so deeply entrenched in every world disorder that just walking off isn't going get the terrorists off our backs!
True, many Americans wouldn't know. I was never interested in them in school, so while I was aware of terms for groups, I never pursued or followed their significance in their own environments. I thought we should stay out of foreign affairs/conflicts then, and I still do. Our CIA covert involvement, to this day, only leads to devastation of some kind, as I see the Consulate and the others in the Benghazi affair would've otherwise still been alive had we not been involved in armament transference. I still cannot believe the Obama Admin handed the MB in Egypt 450 million in aid after that affair; they were part of the intermediaries in Turkey! Our government literally has us funding the terrorist elements, and then we have the idiocy and irony to whine when something terrorist related happens on our soil !! Maybe no one else is, but I'm smarter than that!
...We need to stop it. Stop our involvement in faux wars created to make money, and stop believing that because a community organizer and UN Board member somehow got into the highest position in our government, has our best interests in mind! He promotes, as his predecessors have, another Cold War, only this time---we're the Soviet counterpart.
While the accepted definition of a "generation" is about 20 years, I use 15 which is closer to reality...so I'll meet you half way...1.75.
I'm not bleak, just sardonic.
Perhaps, with the alleged impending energy independence, we can drop much of the pretence and fake admiration. If/when we no longer need to send several hundred billion dollars to the homeland every year to buy oil (since we'll have enough of our own), there will be a greatly reduced need for this kowtowing.
It's a shame really.
Even though it may not have been until recent times, that Islamic terrorism has received recognition as such, Islamic colonialism, terrorism, and piracy has plagued the US since our infancy.
What else can you expect when you take a caravan-raider turned prophet seriously.
btw, great article Perrie!
:~)
RG,
I really think that when we wake up and notice that we're not importing anything from over there, we will change our attitudes. Of course, this remains to be seen.
On another note, this thread brings good memories of old times with the gang, standing back to back,fending off the savages.
Good times, good times indeed.
Hmmmmmmm...
Perrie said:There are cultures that just need a parent figure.
That haseerieechos of the "White Mans' Burden"
We actually did pretty much DID stay on the sidelines in WW2...until Pearl Harbor, then we had no choice, the Japanese got us involved by attacking us.
We don't know why, we don't even know that there is a reason. So we make one up or co-opt someone else's.
In a way, we would be far better off not bothering with a reason at all and just doing.
LOL. Yes you are.
Both of you do an excellent job at posting and discussion. Please don't stop.
LOL Fly!
I fear I have been misunderstood, probably my fault in a desire for brevity.
Neetu said:None of us knows "why the journey"! We are here and we have to make our way and each generation learns something, but for the next generation, the lessons have to be learned again.
The question, "What is the reason (Why the Journey)?" begs the question , "Is there a reason?" For the vast majority of people, these questions are not all that important to the day-to-day workings of their lives. (Think about how many people would die if they did not pray vs. how many people think that they just couldn't make it through a day without prayer.)
The vast majority of people just want to live and do whatever it is they do without interference from some group. That is it, just live. Have a beer. Watch some baseball, mow their lawn if they have one. Religions and governments were created by man to control man, and really serve only as a foil against themselves. So in that Context, try to imagine not worrying about what is the reason and instead paying attention to the important issues. Following someone els'es nose is what got us here in the first place.
I havereceivedthis posting from a member who wishes not to be identified. Please berespectfulas the author will not reply and I will be watching out for them. Thank you.
I too am a child of the era you are, I remember the yellow and black signs telling us where to hide if the sirens go off, and the monthly tests of those sirens. During the '62 missile crisis, we had official cars with loudspeakers going up and down the streets telling us not to look at any flashes, fall flat on the ground if you see something then head to your fallout shelter.... YA vars actually driving up and down the streets with actual people speaking into loudspeakers....
Kids today hear this and look at this in pictures and laugh at how stupid we all were....
I remember the caparisoned stallion being led up Pennsylvania Avenue one of my earliest remembrances from TV. They read it in a history book and laugh, we lived it, and shudder....
I lost my nephew in Afghanistan, they never brought back his body because there wasn't one to bring back.
He loved what he was doing and died doing it.... but it was a needless waste
Al qaida, is a Saudi organization Bin Laden was a member of the ruling class of the house of Saud. this is where he got all his connections, this is also why Clinton didn''t take him when he had him, as a favor to the Sauds. The Mujahadin he helped organize and train, he connected with the Pakistani's.
Bin Laden really didn't give a crap about the mujaha's except what they would return for him as a tool years later. His real interest was removing the infidel from his own country. Our secret (at that time) massive forward deployed base in the Saudi desert the the Saudi agreement for it, is what he had a problem with. so he wasn't going to get anywhere attacking the Saudi government, so capitalize on the mistrust and distrust in the muslim world for everything western and use the bases he built in Afghanistan, to launch a fatwa against the infidels..... (us)
When they committed the towers destruction, (which succeeded far more than they thought it would) they didn't count on the reaction of the USA they thought the USA was a bunch of diverse people that do nothing but bicker amongst ourselves over our slutty society..... (the rest of the world, the ones that know geopolitical history, sucked in and held their breaths, they knew what was coming)
It took two weeks to figure out who did it and where they came from. another two weeks to organize a response, the fear around the world was such that even the Russians didn't flinch when we requested permission to cross their national territory with fully armed and loaded military equipment, and actually subleased their old military bases to us for the duration.... (Al Qaida is as much their enemy as ours) But when was the last time you saw armed US Air Force aircraft flying and operating over and from Russian airspace?
It was get the hell out of the way, the taliban government in Afghanistan, which was composed by the mujahadeen leaders, organized by pakistan, and approved by the Afghani people was asked permission to enter their country and attack the Al Qaida forces and bases in their country. They refused. Our government tried for three weeks to get the Taliban government to acceed to our demands, they promised the world, moon and stars to the taliban, called in the big favor of we helped them in the war with the Soviets all that emotional arm twisting.
They said no.
At that point, the Taliban became the enemy, the mujhadeen we supported, equipped and trained to fight the soviets became our enemy because they would not allow us to run a military campaign within their borders...
Think of it this way. What would we do if the Nazi party of Podunk Iowa, got themselves organized and started a final solution campaign against Israel. They Hijack a couple of El Al airliners and plow them into the Knesset and a few other choice targets in Tel Aviv? Lets say the Israelis formulate their response, everyone else in the world gives them permission to go get the bastards, and they send avtive military formations to Mexico, Cuba and Canada. They ask the US government permission to get the nazi bastards at Podunk Iowa and any others that may be floating around..... And our government says no, and no matter the begging and arm twisting the Israelis do we still say no,
And they do it anyway, calling the US Government as it's enemy, their rational being that they (the US Government) aided and abetted the Nazi Bastards in Podunk, Iowa?
That is what happened, The Taliban Government was not our enemy, in face they were very friendly to us in remembrance of the great aid we were to them in their war with the Soviet, they respected us, and honored us. Until they wouldn't do what we wanted them to do.
So we destroyed them.
It burns my ass that our boys are getting killed over our government having a tantrum because they didn't get their way....
You might understand why I'm hesitant to post this publicly because I'm sure that some would take a very dim view of my position on this. Not that I care if it get posted, It is a position that needs to be said in public, But I can't do it......
Our Government is not our friend, it is already too powerful and growing stronger by the day......
I fear we are headed to a revolution a very bloody one, and I think the brakes have been disabled on that train. Right now I see the Government feeling out just how far they can push before they get push back. Knowing my countrymen, it will happen with a quickness I'm sure they don't think is possible......
But those are my feelings, Our government is responsible for most of the crap we take around the world by trying to be the biggest and baddest player on the block. you and I are both old and wise enough to now how that game ends. Nobody wins.
This is for you as I said I will respond with my take, yes we are tough and we (our generation will win again if we are forced to) can take it, but I would just as soon avoid the internecine warfare that we know is coming......
I do see the forces coming together on both sides, everyone should if they are paying attention, I see discussions from people that have been on both sides coming to consensus on it, and those people (liberals and conservatives) are arming themselves at a rate faster than any other period in American history....
Like in the early '60's when we had those people driving around in cars telling us what to do in case of attack, I shudder at the thought......
Maybe I'm just being pessimistic, I certainly hope so......
We have created one hell of a mess for ourselves....
I really feel enlightened after reading this. Thank you to the author!
I take away two main points: 1) That 9/11 was about bin Laden using the attack on our soil as a way to up the angst in his *own* country by increasing the "mistrust and distrust" for the "infidels" - 'there' and around the world; 2) Our government is ruthless. If another country doesn't do what we want, we will destroy them.
I hesitate using the word "we" as I don't believe democracy is possible. That isn't human nature to let the blind lead the blind... but they have us believing that is what is happening. Authoritarianism is very natural. We use authority in nearly every aspect of our lives; it's a necessity in order to prevent the polar opposite which will take down a civilization. It's just that we need to be vigilant regarding the dictators we allow into top government. We need a leader, not a ruler, and that leader should be about the same thing the Constitution is: protections from a Federal Government. I realize our top Government is not a stand-alone. It's being pulled from many directions (groups, orgs, Wall St.), including a Hierarchy of controllers (the Bonesmen?), yet, despite that, allowing a "True Believer" - another bin Laden mentality - to take hold of our 'immediate' interests creates a similar outcome as what bin Laden was instigating in his own country: aggression and pitting us against each other to further a main cause that's not in our best interests. To that end, is the reason why we need arms to protect ourselves from the tyranny and where that eventually seems to lead, historically.