Are environmentalists merely indifferent to paupers or do they actually hate them ?

Robert ,

If the RFS proceeds as planned then no . Can you find gasoline now that doesn't contain ethanol [E10] ? I think the only places would be the marina and the airport . But fuhgidabout driving to the airport for fuel . DHS will arrest you if you even try ... fact .

Mike ,

It sounds like your worst nightmare is becoming mainstream now . People who cherish older cars are going to get screwed .

Neetu ,

Good question . I am still researching this issue . I was hoping to find someplace online to sign a petition against the continuation of the RFS . So far I only uncovered more bad news :
prnewswire

From a blog post regarding...

It is my opinion that there are two ways to protect small engines...don't run ethanol or drain all the fuel out of the system/engine after each use. Basically ethanol is moonshine and I can think of a much better use for it than to run engines...lol

The primary disadvantage of ethanol is because of alcohol's solvent and water-absorbing qualities.

Ethanol is also inconvenient because the shelf life is only about 2-3 months in ideal environmental conditions.

Ethanol (ethyl alcohol) has several chemical properties and effects which render it to be incompatible with several conventional engine parts and vehicles -
Alcohols are water soluble, attract and absorb water/moisture, solvent, cleanser and cleaner, drying-agents, de-greaser, and more...

Many motors, especially older engines, are constructed with parts that become very brittle over time and cannot withstand the effects of alcohol. When E10 gas is used, the engine components can disintegrate and clog the engine with sludge and grime, causing the engine to "lock up" and seize. When this happens, often the engine cannot be fixed and must be replaced.

Ethanol's effects vary depending on the engine type, model and year and type of fuel system, (Carbureted, direct-injected, 2 stroke or 4 stroke).

Marine engines are probably least compatible with ethanol-blend fuels. Aircraft agencies ban alcohol-blend fuels and are exempt from using E-10 and E-85.

Gasoline absorption of water is problematic (gas becomes contaminated and must be discarded).
Operating an engine on an alcohol content that is too high (over 10% for E10), will cause engine damage and poor performance.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ethanol alcohol is an excellent SOLVENT - Ethanol will dissolve plastic, rubber, certain types of fiberglass and even aluminum!
Ethanol can dissolve and disintegrate just about anything that has accumulated in a motor engine.

Ethanol will dissolve resins that create a black sludge that coats and travels through the engine, causing engine stalling and complications, including clogged fuel filters, carburetor jets and injectors.

Ethanol alcohol is a DRYING AGENT and can DISINTEGRATE or DISSOLVE parts.

Ethanol will dry-out and cause cracking and damage to non-alcohol resistant parts, especially rubber and plastic parts and components.
Many engine hoses of older engines are not resistant to alcohol.

Ethanol alcohol is an excellent CLEANSER -While these can have useful purposes, it can also be very problematic...

Ethanol will clean and release years of dirt, rust, sediment and other gunk from the engine and circulate it through the engine, causing clogging of filters and engine parts.

Ethanol will ABSORB WATER. It actually combines (adsorbs and combines) with water, and the combined molecules are greater than the sum of each separate molecule.

All alcohols attract and combine with water. Petroleum and most other oil-based compounds are not soluble in water.

Yup; serious issues that CAN'T be resolved, except by replacing the engine. I know for a fact that some older model snowmobiles and motorcycles will not run on ethanol blends.

A person probably will have more luck finding regular gasoline in rural farming communities,,,,at least that's the way it seems around here. Either way, it looks like Americans are getting their asses , again, handed to them.

No kiddin'!

Same here...they are a bitch.

While I have to agree with you on this policy, I must say that living a more environmentally correct life in many ways saves a lot of money. Use a push mower, instead of a power mower. It costs less and puts less gunk in the air. Use slow-growing grass, instead of all these other things that grow like mad, and STOP fertilizing. So what if you have a few weeds? If they're green, who cares?

Reduce, recycle, and reuse. Isn't that what all of us poor people do anyway? Don't many of the lower economic people take buses anyway? And, isn't it better to use an alternative fuel for those? I agree that ethanol is a bad idea-- what about french fry grease? Our buses here in Louisville use a variety of products, and most of them smell like McDonald's french fries.

The cost of food is AWFUL, and it hits the poor hardest of all. Here in Louisville, we have community gardens, and the poor can use those at a minimal rent, ($10/yr), to have a nice sized vegetable plot. And yeah, it's tough, but each garden has a master gardener in charge of it, and they can ask advice, etc.

I think it's time that all of us do our best to save our environment, create wildlife areas, and do something about the water we drink, the air we breathe, etc. When city sewers came into being, everyone griped about them, and having to hook onto them, and it was expensive. But, I'm sure you agree, that when people are piled on top of one another, like in a city, they need a sanitary sewer and a clean water supply...

Maybe ethanol isn't the answer, but it may be one answer, just as a lot of other things may also contribute.

Nice article, by the way!

MIke ,

I thought about it . That was not your worst nightmare . That's my worst nightmare . I don't even wanna know what your worst nightmare is !

Thanks for contributing that useful link Robert . Apparently using 100 % ethanol in cars especially designed for that purpose are not going to suffer the problems it described . But it sounds like the E15 mixture is going to present problems ... unavoidable problems .

Great link Larry . Thanks much .

When they converted to E10 I had a problem starting my old lawnmower . I finally solved it by putting a restrictor plate in the carburetor air intake line . It worked for the 1st year . But the 2nd year even swearing and throwing wrenches did not help . That's when I bought myself an electric lawnmower . It starts every time ...

[[Don't many of the lower economic people take buses anyway?]]

They will be when E15 is phased in ...

[[what about french fry grease? Our buses here in Louisville use a variety of products, and most of them smell like McDonald's french fries.]]

Those are diesel buses . They can run on biodiesel but even that has problems . It turns moldy if left to sit too long .

[[ Here in Louisville, we have community gardens, and the poor can use those at a minimal rent, ($10/yr), to have a nice sized vegetable plot. ]]

That's a really good idea . How do they get to their community gardens ... by car ?

[[Maybe ethanol isn't the answer]]

No maybe about it ...

No, they're in neighborhoods, within walking distance, (3-4 blocks), of the big apartment complexes and in the neighborhoods. they get to use the garden tools for free-- and are even supplied the plants, free.

I think ethanol is a bad idea, too. And stupid, besides. But, other things need to be done, that will save people $$ in the long run.

[[But, other things need to be done, that will save people $$ in the long run.]]

That is why I have long been an advocate of the electric car . Although it is still too expensive now that could change in time .

We can only hope! We can also hope that they don't use coal-fired power plants to make all that electricity...

One of the advantages of the electric car is complete fuel flexibility . Power plants can obtain power from numerous sources depending on what is available . But the "infernal" combustion engine can mostly use petroleum products almost exclusively .

BTW , power plants can even burn ethanol . That is not a bad idea in itself . The problem is with ethanol produced from corn . Other sources of ethanol are not nearly as inefficient . Beet sugar is likely to be a lot more efficient than corn . Best of all is ethanol from sugar cane . That's what they use in Brazil .

...but can you ride it?

;^)

But does it make a good martini?

Really interesting article. I had no idea about these plans in the works.

I am not a big fan ofethanol. Not that I am a big fan of most corn products, but they do have their place in the food chain (just not as high fructose corn syrup or as cow feed, which is the main reason that we that nasty strain of E. Coli).

I am a big fan of electric cars. Also other bio fuels including fuels made from tires. Cleans up landfills and provides a needed product.

Great article Rich! I just got smarter here!

[[I am a big fan of electric cars.]]

They are coming along . As you are probably aware , the new lithium batteries seem to have a problem catching fire. This obviously serious issue must be corrected before they can become commercially viable . I suspect the problem is due to overcharging . Until that is dealt with it is best to look at other alternative methods of storing energy . Peugeot has plans for an innovative system which should be available in about 3 years . That is what is getting my attention currently .

Great discussion, NC. Please keep us updated as you obtain further info.

Mike, you mean that people are actually finding out that sometimes you need to drive more than 60 miles at a time, move something heavier than 900 pounds and that the 4wd actually has a use? Amazing to watch when reality comes up and bites people in the ass.

TTGA ,

The subject of this article is the looming problem due to the planned intro of E15 fuel . Drivers needing to accomplish those tasks are going to be badly impacted if the plans are implemented as they are currently written .

I have at no time said nor implied that the electric car or similar technology is a good idea for everyone . But in terms of reducing average fuel consumption of the US fleet the widespread adoption [not 100%] of such technology is the best single strategy . The result of doing that would free up fuel to use for those that have heavier driving demands such as hauling loads .

Wow this is going to put me in a bind.

I bet Mike. What does the manufacturerrecommendfor that car? It is a performance vehicleafter all.

Not to belittle the concern by any means... but is this kind of like the switch over from leaded to unleaded? I kind of sort of (I was really young to non-existant then) remember the outcry over not being able to drive old cars on unleaded and that everyone would have to buy a new car...

I like the idea of electric cars, until I looked at the list of rare earth metals those batteries take.

I drive a diesel car (and love it to pieces). It's a 2005 but can get 40 mpg easy on roadtrips (closer to 50mpg if I dont speed like a demon). It kind of sucks on the daily commute and only gets about 35 mpg in stop and go... but I still love it like a second husband.

Also, stock feed corn, corn syrup corn, biofuel corn and eating corn are all different corns... while I could believe some of the food price up is due to the use of corn all over, there are still plenty of fields that go to rot because they cant afford to grow it for what is sells for... so they burn it and take a subsidy. The drought due to climate issues and the price jacking for shipping costs add more to crop costs (I would think).

I think the major goal is to get all of our use from home sources, so we can stop funding crazyregiemes overseas and in south america. Of course with China's demand, it aint gonna matter much. I just hope that when the next wars break out China is the one that takes over the bill because it will be their oil chain broken.

With that major goal in mind, ethanol subsidy is looking okay... not great by any means, but doable. As a classic car lover, I really dont think my old 70 ford can handle 15% EtOH... it barely handles unleaded... so that's dissapointing

N Cognito,

I don't want to make too many waves on my first day at News Talkers, but facts are important to me (I think they should be important to everyone), and there are several issues I have with this article. I'll take them point by point.

The fact that our president hails from the farming region associated with corn might mean something to those who pay attention to these issues .

To be very clear, E15 comes out of the Energy Policy Act of 2005 (EPAct 2005, P.L. 110-58), and is actively promoted by lobbying groups like The American Coalition For Ethanol . I assure you this is no 'environmental' group. Far from it.

Furthermore, that Act was approved in 2005, and signed into law by Bush II.

Obama did vote for it (as a Senator), but nearly everyone did. Notable exceptions are Boxer, Biden, Corzine, Clinton, Feingold, and others . A total of 19 Democrats and 5 Republicans voted against this bill.

So there's that.

But the idea that all (or even most) environmental groups support ethanol is, simply put, not accurate. This is something I know firsthand, as my own elderly mother spent years working with the Sierra Club to halt the building of an ethanol plant near her small town in Wisconsin. Sierra provided legal assistance free of charge, and was ultimately successful in shutting the whole thing down.

That was 7 years ago. So whatever environmental push originally existed for ethanol has long since evaporated (no pun intended), and the push for ethanol is now backed almost solely by AgriBusiness groups like the one I linked above.

Only a loser would have a car that old ... right ?

Maybe...

My 'newest' car is a 1998 BMW with 248,000 miles on it. Runs like a charm. I think it might outlast me. My other car is much older - a 29-year-old 911 that's only had one owner (me).

So this is an issue that will directly affect me, too. I'm not happy with the Ethanol Lobby, the 2005 Act, or E15. Corn-based ethanol is a very, very bad idea.

Environmentalists know that .

I"m not sure that environmentalists have ever taken the poor into account, at not the ones I know. They are mostly against big oil or big anything.

As for corn, it takes a lot of water, more than wheat or sorghum. I see the ethanol issue, not from the energy side, but from the water side.

Ain't it the truth. Without the old FJ I don't think I could make it up the moutain to my hovel in the winter. Much less load tools, lumber, firewood, Big Dawg and various other totables.

I don't own anything younger than 24. I may be screwed. Might be time to consider a Still.

EPA's Push For More Ethanol Could Be Too Little, Too Late April 01, 2013

Philip Verleger, an economist who tracks the oil industry, says when Congress approved the Renewable Fuel Standard in 2007, foreign oil imports were rising.

Then came tar sands and new ways to drill for oil.

"The oil crisis is going away," Verleger says. "We have plenty of oil. We have too much oil."

Verleger says the switch to E10 was driven by the Clean Air Act to reduce smog, and it worked pretty well.

The switch to E15, however, is being driven by the renewable fuel mandate, which directs the EPA to require a greater volume of ethanol in gasoline every year, pretty much, no matter what.

Even some environmental groups don't like that mandate, because corn ethanol requires so much energy and water to produce.

E15: Frequently Asked Questions

EPA placed two types of conditions on the waiver for E15: those to help prevent misfueling of E15 into vehicles, engines and equipment that may not use E15 and those addressing fuel and ethanol quality. All conditions must be met before E15 may be introduced into commerce.

...

Labels must be placed on E15 retail dispensers indicating that E15 use is only for MY2001 and newer motor vehicles.

Norquist Slams GOPers For Voting To End Ethanol Subsidies: You Popped Your Cherry On Tax Hikes - June 16, 2011

This afternoon, the Senate overwhelmingly voted to end $6 billion in subsidies for ethanol , with 34 Republicans joining the 73-27 majority to end tax breaks and protective tariffs for the corn-based fuel industry. The effort was led by Diane Feinstein (D-CA) and Tom Coburn (R-OK), with strong support from members of both parties.

Trying to figure out what's going on with this.

Court declines to hear challenge to EPA's stance on E15 gasoline

06/24/2013

Opponents of the 2007 law that steadily increases the amount of ethanol Americans must use have been pushing Congress to repeal the Renewable Fuels standard. On Wednesday, a House Energy and Commerce panel will hold a hearing on the standard. Without boosting the ethanol percentage in most gas, it's unlikely that targets laid out by Congress can be met.

Under the 2007 law, the nation is increasing ethanol use in vehicles to 15.2 billion gallons this year, up from 5 billion gallons in 2007. By 2022, the U.S. must use 36 billion gallons of biofuels, with 21 billion gallons of that from advanced cellulosic ethanol made from sources other than corn.

Does the premium gas have less ethanol?

Thanks for the link CW :

latimes...
Here is a pertinent excerpt from it :

Still, ending the ethanol credit is unlikely to happen soon, as the legislation was attached to a stalled economic development bill.

Thanks also the other link :
julesburgadvocate
Again here is a significant excerpt :

Automakers' only hope of blocking E15 lies with Congress -- an uphill battle, given support for ethanol from the Obama administration and corn-growing states.

Move to smaller, more self contained communities ...

In my view, this would be useful for more than just food production. I also believe it is a lifestyle that will be forced upon us rather than being a chosen lifestyle. Too many farmers only grow one crop to sell the giants. This is not good for the land and if it isn't good for the land it isn't good for the people.

Good question Chloe . As far as I know the answer is no . Premium gas is currently E10 and will change just like regular gas to E15 when the RFS is implemented .

Okay. Thanks for your thoughts.

Never mind that St. Trayvon . It is looming threats like this from the EPA towards the car driving populace that suggest shutting down the government has its upside :
thenewstalkers

Good idea. I don't like how they add ethanol by-products to pet food. It might be Ok, but I don't trust the levels as there are no standards for ingredients like there are for many of our foods.

Only if the warranty was purchased separately, after the car transaction.

The E15 issue is no doubt a big concern to owners of expensive antique cars . I don't expect they are much of a political power block however .

Congress would have to make changes to effect the e15 implementation

I assume you mean to prevent the implementation .

Presidents hands are tied he can sign or veto but cannot do that to something that doesn't exist.

According to this wiki site en.wikipedia

The agency is led by its Administrator, who is appointed by the president and approved by Congress. The current administrator is Gina McCarthy.[4] The EPA is not a Cabinet department, but the administrator is normally given cabinet rank.

If the president can appoint this Administrator , I expect he can also remove her from office . If so there is no reason to expect he can't have a big say in its policy implementations .

Also here is a surprising recent news story :
spectator

Senate Republican lawmakers released a report yesterday accusing the Environmental Protection Agency of several Freedom of Information Act violations.
As Congress has raised questions about EPAs lack of transparency, the agency has steadfastly ignored its constitutional obligation to subject itself to congressional oversight , apparently in an effort to prevent the public from knowing what is going on behind closed doors, the report said, according to the Washington Examiner.
The report comes as Lisa Jackson, former EPA administrator, is scheduled to testify before the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee. Jackson, who resigned as administrator seven months ago, provides the basis for Republicans allegations against the EPA. The committee will investigate Jacksons use of a secret secondary email account under the name Richard Windsor to conduct official business.

Here's another indication of what the president can do :
cnn

There were times when Obama himself became an obstacle to Jackson.
In September 2011, Obama ordered Jackson to scrap a plan for reducing ozone pollution. At the time, the president stressed his environmental record, but said the additional regulations would create uncertainty that could slow down the economic recovery.

So there you have it . The president can indeed override the agency's plans .

Right next door to where I live, figuratively speaking, is a 200 acre, corporately own farm that grows nothing but corn for ethanol. From start to finish, it is fully subsidized by the US government. Even if the entire crop fails, they still make a profit because of these subsidies.

What bothers me, aside from the subsidies, when the farm was privately owned, they grew some of the best eating corn in the county, all grown naturally. Multiply this in the thousands, and we have the potential for a food shortage should a national crop calamity happen.

I didn't know what happened with the Ethanol tax credit, but a google finds:

After Three Decades, Tax Credit for Ethanol Expires

I think you're correct

New news on E15:

Missouri lawmakers block rule allowing E15 gasoline

October 9, 2013

Yes, the EPA is part of the executive branch. But if E15 is required by law, it's a lot tougher for the President to act alone.

He could delay implementing it, with the high probability someone would sue, and he could very well lose in the courts.

if E15 is required by law

I'm not sure the "law" in question has passed congress . The RFS may only be an EPA plan . If so the president has full control to push it or remove it . I'm going to do more exploring on this issue .

The main problem I have with the RFS is that it removes consumer choices . Making E15 the only gasoline available presents many potential hazards for automotive damage . Will the govt be responsible for damage to cars from the use of this new fuel ? If not then they need to allow other choices to be in the market place .
This standard is the kind of autocratic edict one would expect from a dictatorship , not from a market based economy ...

Even if the entire crop fails, they still make a profit because of these subsidies.

From the Cletus W. link here :
thenewstalkers
you can read about the expiration of the ethanol tax credit .

From this site :
fuelfix...

The House Energy and Commerce Committee is set to convene two days of hearings on the renewable fuel standard next week ahead of a broad bid to reshape the law. The panel has so far been deliberative in its approach to the RFS; the committee issued a series of five white papers on the mandate and asked stakeholders to weigh in ahead of the hearings.

From the linked article you can see that oil companies are not a united front on this issue . Some of them have done R&D to produce biofuels . If the standard is changed they may have wasted their resources on this research.

What we need to do is to research and find other products that we can turn into ethanol at a lower price

From this site :
sugarcane

More than 90 percent of new cars sold today in Brazil are flex fuel due to consumer demand, and these vehicles now make up about sixty percent of the countrys entire light vehicle fleet a remarkable accomplishment in less than a decade.

Brazil redesigned their entire system to run on ethanol . They already had the climate & land to grow sugarcane .
But to turn that into a transportation fuel they needed to develop cars that can utilize ethanol or any mix of gasoline & ethanol ... flex fuel vehicles .

The point is that the climate in Brazil is perfect for a high sugar crop . The US cannot match that climate . As a result we continue to rely on petroleum . We are not going to be producing flex fuel cars like the Brazilians do because we don't have that fuel source . We just don't have enough sunlight .

And what do you do with that homemade booze ... or were you serious ?

Please have a look at my latest article on the ethanol mess . It turns out that those misguided policies were another cause of high gas prices ...

Is the issue by government officials to use less carbon based fuels and imported oil good for our country. If ethanol is used its produced in country bu U.S. workers. I agree moving to 15 seems to make little or no sense unless they offer both 10 and 15 most Gas stations don't have enough storage tanks normally to handle that. Or separate pumps to deliver it. CRAP!

Good question to be brought forward to local Senators and Congressmen one would think they would care.

One would think the oil companies would back the delay if not an alternative to 15% ethanol. It may be time to convert to Propane or natural gas for fues subsidized by the U.S. Government. They cause the prohlem they should fix it. I would anticipate an extremely high percentage of cars on the road as well as vintage cars and sports cars like my 2005 S2000 will not accept 15% ethanol. Wonder if government would tolerate protests.

I agree moving to 15 seems to make little or no sense unless they offer both 10 and 15 most Gas stations don't have enough storage tanks normally to handle that. Or separate pumps to deliver it. CRAP!

One possible way to accomplish that might be to use what Sunoco used to do . Driver's could custom blend their own fuel from a mix of octanes .

Good question to be brought forward to local Senators and Congressmen one would think they would care.

See this response :
thenewstalkers

It may be time to convert to Propane or natural gas for fues subsidized by the U.S. Government.

This has been proposed especiallyfor big trucks . It is more technically feasible for those vehicles . Cars don't have as much room for the propane tanks .

What kind of an environmentalist are you to say such a thing ?!

As an environmentalist you have to swear you will stay away from beer ... all those CO2 bubbles . Even if there are Monks involved :

thenewstalkers

If you drink Guinness you will have to fore-go champagne to make up for it ...

Of course the whole idea of avoiding beer because of the CO2 bubbles is just silly . CO2 is not even the issue even though big dog climatologists scream that it is :
thenewstalkers

Ethanol can be a fun product in various forms . Unfortunately the govt policy has been defective when it is used to blend into fuels ... the so-called RINs :
thenewstalkers

I'm really not an environmentalist, but more of a conservationist-- and maybe that is simple self-delusion... Be that as it may, more of the environmental/conservation issues I've been involved in actually save money. Yeah, I know that sounds ridiculous, but, think about it.

Integrated Pest Management-- IPM cuts the use of pesticides, (using pesticides in its generic form, meaning anything that kills pests). You use weed killer only on the actual weed you want to kill, not the whole lawn. You pest-proof your home by caulking holes and seams, fixing screens, etc. It can really save you a lot of money, and you are putting a lot less chemicals in the environment.

Best Management Practices-- BMPs decrease the amount of energy required to do specific tasks, and helps to prevent pollution. Its just a way of management that costs little or nothing. Example: Keep the lid on your trash can. Mow your grass a little higher, so it has a good root system and stays green longer, naturally. Mainly it is all just common sense, and is designed to save money for the homeowner, or whomever.

I care very deeply about the poor, and most of what I do for a living will help them live a healthier lifestyle at lower costs.

We can only hope! We can also hope that they don't use coal-fired power plants to make all that electricity..

Coal burning is horrible for the environment--and that means, ultimately, for people.. In addition to the problems most people know about, there's another one many people don't know about-- Mercury:

Burning coal releases toxic mercury that rains down into rivers and streams. This poison then accumulates in the food chain, eventually making its way into our bodies when we eat contaminated fish.

Mercury is a powerful neurotoxin that can damage the brain and nervous system.

Currently, coal-fired power plants are the largest single source of unregulated mercury pollution in the United States, emitting over 33 tons of toxic mercury each year.

I believe I 've heard that the Obama administration is taking action to greatly decrease (or totally eliminate) coal burning over time?

IMO it should be totally outlawed!

The problem is with ethanol produced from corn

The Corn Growers lobby is very, very powerful.

They are also running a disinformation campaign ("Sweet Surprise") to try to convince us that High Fructose Corn Syrup is fine.

Corn Growers' Association propaganda video:

Rebuttal:

[[I am a big fan of electric cars.]]

They are coming along . As you are probably aware , the new lithium batteries seem to have a problem catching fire. This obviously serious issue must be corrected before they can become commercially viable . I suspect the problem is due to overcharging . Until that is dealt with it is best to look at other alternative methods of storing energy . Peugeot has plans for an innovative system which should be available in about 3 years . That is what is getting my attention currently .

Note-- Tesla is a popular electric car:

Tesla Motors, Inc. designs, develops, manufactures, and sells electric vehicles and electric vehicle powertrain components. The company also provides services for the development of electric powertrain systems and components, and sells electric vehicle powertrain components to other automotive manufacturers. It markets and sells its vehicles through Tesla stores and galleries, as well as over the Internet. The company operates a network of 80 stores and galleries in North America, Europe, and Asia. Tesla Motors, Inc. was founded in 2003 and is headquartered in Palo Alto, California.

Key Statistics

Elon Musk:

Mr. Elon R. Musk , 42
Co-Founder, Chairman, Chief Exec. Officer and Product Architect

People who've driven Teslas really love them. Elon Musk, claims that the risk of car fires in Teslas are less than conventional cars, and that the damage is less.

-->Interesting article.. .LINK

Tesla Model S wins 'best overall' car by Consumer Reports

Calling the vehicle a "technological tour de force," the magazine awards the all-electric sedan its top ranking.

Headlines are indeed deceptive . Thanks for the link . Here is one you might be interested in :
thenewstalkers

Tesla Motors is a very innovative company . They manufacture the best Li ion battery packs of anyone in the e-car biz . They work better than all the others in cold weather . Let me know if you want a link about that .
And I still think the fire problem is due to rapid charging especially as the batteries get towards fully charged . It wouldn't surprise me if the problem vanished if people would only charge up to 90 % of capacity .

Hi Physicist-retired -- I believe we knew each other in a past life-- in a distant land (that green-coloured site).

Environmentalists know that .

I believe that link is broken?

I don't know much about it, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is due to the power of the Corn Growers Association lobbying.

I have heard that the fuel that is cleanest, thatmakes the most sense is actually natural gas-- is that so? (We certainly have enough of it-- it should also be inexpensive?)

Save the oil for food production.If I remember correctly we will need to double our food supply in next fifty years or so.

So if we can reduce our energy needs by moving fewer people and products across smaller distances we can actually feed more people.

If the world became vegan it would we could feed many more people using much less land, less energy, and less water. (Another effect would be that the rate of diseases such as Heart Disease, Cancer, Diabetes, etc would plummet).

We haven't seen P-R here since that comment he made above . Perhaps I wasn't a very good host ...

As to the broken link , I expect the info is somewhere under this heading :

ewg

From the physics POV growing plants from sunlight , any plants , provides a very inefficient conversion of the energy . It is much more efficient to use solar PV cells to convert directly to electricity . Then that power could be used directly in electric cars . But it can't be used in internal combustion engines [unless they are plug-in hybrids] .

Wind turbines can be even more efficient than solar but only certain locations can make good use of them . Also the maintenance for wind turbines is much greater than for solar .

when Congress approved the Renewable Fuel Standard in 2007, foreign oil imports were rising.

And how things are changing-- look what they're doing to pipelines that run from the Gulf of Mexico northward-- working on pipelines to reverse the direction of flow for export rather than import!

(Reuters) - The U.S. shale oil revolution can't be stopped, but it could be delayed by a potential shortfall of 10-ton valves and giant pipeline pumps essential for rebalancing markets upended by the surge in production.

Amid an unanticipated boom in inland oil output that turned the domestic market upside down last year, firms from Enterprise Products Partners* to Shell Pipeline and Plains All American* have launched a $20 billion bonanza to build, expand or reverse two dozen pipelines in the past year.

_________________________________________

"The oil crisis is going away," Verleger says. "We have plenty of oil. We have too much oil."

I wonder how many Americans realize the magnitude of the degree of this change?

U.S. Seen as Biggest Oil Producer After Overtaking Saudi Arabia

The U.S. will remain the world's biggest oil producer this year after overtaking Saudi Arabia and Russia as extraction of energy from shale rock spurs the nation's economic recovery, Bank of America Corp. said.

The country became the world's largest natural gas producer in 2010

link

___________________________________

*Full disclosure-- I own shares of EPD & PAA

This afternoon, the Senate overwhelmingly voted to end $6 billion in subsidies for ethanol , with 34 Republicans joining the 73-27 majority to end tax breaks and protective tariffs for the corn-based fuel industry. The effort was led by Diane Feinstein (D-CA) and Tom Coburn (R-OK), with strong support from members of both parties.

Trying to figure out what's going on with this.

When I first read that I was surprised-- my assumption is that very few forces can overcome the power of the evil Corn Growers Association. Strange indeed..what could be more powerful than the power of corn here...?

Than I realized:

1. IMO, the single sector of the stock market with the highest growth potential is energy. Yup-- and specifically what technology is doing in the Shale.

2. Many average investors doesn't know it, but the "smart money" does.

3. Therefore Congress-persons know it.

So--

4. I bet they have realized the huge amount of money they can make personally by simply investing in this-- owning the right stocks. And no silly lobbyists to deal with-- no need to be present for any specific vote in Congress. All thy have to do is call their broker. Oil from Shale, (& perhaps natural gas) instead of Ethanol. Betcha they own a lot of stocks like HAL, SLB, CNX, CXO, XEC, PXD, APC, and of course EOG. To name a few (And MLPs such as EPD, PAA, KMP, maybe OKS?) And maybe some sand-- EMES?

Just realized-- Coburn is from Oklahoma. Hmmmm...

While I certainly understand the point of the article, it seems to put the cart before the horse.

The working poor aren't likely to have cars of any "vintage" let alone stressing over the cost of gasoline. 

Both the motor vehicle and fuel industries would benefit from an end to outsourcing and better paying jobs.

The fuel industry has expanded greatly due to the "drill-baby-drill" policy . The US spent many decades importing fuel from Saudi Arabia . Now we employ locally obtained fuels .

The working poor aren't likely to have cars of any "vintage" let alone stressing over the cost of gasoline.

Those that commute to jobs do ... Fuel is now quite inexpensive . It wasn't that way under Obama when we had to import from the Saudis

Those that commute to jobs do ... Fuel is now quite inexpensive . It wasn't that way under Obama when we had to import from the Saudis

CLAIM:  Gasoline prices have been dramatically lower during the Obama administration than the Bush administration because Obama has no ties to the oil and gas industries.

MIXTURE

WHAT'S TRUE:  President Bush’s family has strong ties to the oil and gas industry whereas President Obama has relatively none; average national gasoline prices did spike to over $4.00 per gallon at one point during the Bush administration.

WHAT'S FALSE:  Retail gasoline prices were actually lower during most of the Bush administration than they have been under President Obama; although presidents can set domestic and foreign policy that can have a long-term effect on crude oil prices (such as President Obama’s encouragement of the American shale oil industry), America’s dependence on foreign oil means that domestic gasoline prices are more affected by the machinations of Saudi Arabia and OPEC than they are on what an individual president does.

The claim of gasoline prices doubling under Obama is technically correct, but irrelevant because the reason it happened was that he came into office near the bottom of a price overcorrection. Blaming Obama for the price rise would be like blaming him for cases of lung cancer that were detected during his term. Energy policies that presidents implement will manifest themselves years down the road because of the lag time in developing projects. We have many historical examples of this.

A president has very limited means to impact gasoline prices over the course of their term. If McCain had been elected, you would have seen the same pattern, except in that case the exact same attacks would have come from the left.

Yawn ... this is a very old article . I posted the link for Dowser . Why are you here ?