I have thought about this every time I hear of a terrible human made tragedy, there is something pulling us down. 

In the movie The Thin Red Line, the off screen  narrator says right before a savage battle 

This great evil, where's it come from? How'd it steal into the world? What seed, what root did it grow from? Who's doing this? Who's killing us, robbing us of life and light, mocking us with the sight of what we might've known? Does our ruin benefit the earth, does it help the grass to grow, the sun to shine? Is this darkness in you, too? Have you passed through this night?

People say, why do we need government? Why do we need law? Why not let everyone be free to follow their nature? 

Why?

Why do people say that?

Simple-- its because they are Libertarians!!!

Hi, Mr. Russell.  Saw this article earlier today and thought about it.

It kinda strikes near at home right now because my soon to be 16 year old grandson (my avatar at 10) just went through some scary stuff for a boy his age.  When I found out Sat. that he was being extorted by an 18 year old for $100 or else he would be beaten, my first thought was I will eat him alive!  You see, Caleb, is my breath.  My son, Mark, his Dad called our local police for advice.  The 18 year old did show up Sat night, but didn't know Mark would be there.  I was told he got tough with Mark, but Mark got tougher.  The boy backed away, but for how long.  The karma is the boy was picked up by police on Sunday night for illegal drug dealing.

My point is.....it has always been like this.....good vs bad.  I don't think this boy was born that way, but he has no direction.  He could have ruined Caleb's life except that he trusted his Dad to do what a boy at 16 doesn't have the capability of doing. 

We need laws and we need police to enforce those laws.  I think some people are truly evil.  There is a dark side to everyone as we aren't perfect little robots, but it is whether we act on our dark side.  My dark side....do not tread on my family.  Even knowing that, I would never resort to physical violence as it is just not the way to solve things.  But, then, again, maybe I haven't been pushed that far.  Who knows?

Are Human Beings "Fallen" Creatures ?

Well, that does presuppose that human beings actually stood up in the first place, doesn't it?

Pretty arrogant if you ask me.... (but then that is the one true nature of humans, an arrogant belief in their absolute superiority over everything, even each other)

When someone falls from grace do they do it from a standing position?

You seem like you just want to start an argument.

No argument John, just a pointing out of a simple truth.

One which belies the argument you are positing.

Anything else is simple opinions stated simply.

Answer me this....

WHAT IS "GRACE" to you....

Once we establish what "Grace" is to you, in the context you choose to use it, then we have a basis for discussion.

I am not going to entertain your convoluted ramblings.

If you have something to say about the topic say it. The OP is rather clear.

If not, there are many other articles for you to comment on.

Still the same ol' John, can't handle a serious conversation.

If you have something to say about the topic say it. The OP is rather clear.

See my original response ... (I think I quoted the title, can't be more on topic than that)

Comment removed, skirting the CoC [ph]

Comment removed for CoC violation [ph]

If you have a comment about the topic, make it, other wise find somewhere else to comment.

Comment removed skirting the CoC [ph]

I am going to ask her to retroactively remove your comments. I gave you a warning

Just because you do not like the response which is clearly on topic, you do not have grounds to have it removed.

No trash here you simply don't like it, (probably more not liking the poster than the comment) and refuse to respond to the plain question your title brings up.

The CoC isn't for your personal convenience you know......

Either make a point about the OP or stop commenting here. 

Once we establish what "Grace" is to you, in the context you choose to use it, then we have a basis for discussion.

John, that was a legitimate question. A definition for clarification. 

I once knew Grace. Well, in the biblical sense anyway...

Lol! Did you ever fall off of her?

I did. Once she poked me in both sides at the same time during....well...and...well....

The Bible says we were placed here first, innocent. Along with the beast of the field. We were cared for by our "Superior," if you will allow me.  That is what we are told about our beginning 'state' on this Earth.

Is your other question more along the lines of this: If the spiritual man does not exist, then can the natural man do what we wish? 

This great evil, where's it come from? How'd it steal into the world? What seed, what root did it grow from? Who's doing this? 

So you would say Satan. 

What about people who don't believe in a Christian God?  What was their innocence lost to? 

When innocence was lost of necessity would not it be the self-same 'fall'?

You are a strong Christian so you believe in a religious interpretation of "evil", which is fine.

What if evil is a perversion of self-interest?  What is the "original sin" that Catholics have in their dogma? The original sin was self-regard by Adam and Eve. They saw themselves as separate from the rest of creation, you could say. They suddenly were ashamed of their nakedness. Shortly thereafter one of their sons killed the other. Evil was born. 

Does this correspond to the stage of evolution when human beings became self-conscious, when they realized that they had individual interests that might conflict with the individual interests of others of their species.

Of course animals treat each other badly, but are they conscious of it? Can they reflect on it? Express it?  

If I follow your train of thought correctly, this is the point where mankind realized that something more is required of it than the other beasts of the field. For instance, to our very day the animals maintain their nakedness and innocence. Man removed itself from the states of nakedness and innocence.

Yes, I believe it was a stage of evolution. 

Therein lies the discussion from the Christian point of view: Spiritual aspects overlay and/or correspond to the natural aspects.

 Spiritual aspects overlay and/or correspond to the natural aspects.

Yes they do. 

The idea of Humans being "fallen", as a preclusion to explain why government is necessary makes sense if one accepts it. It's "made sense" for an awful long time.

I would say rather than fallen, humans are separated. Separated from each other, from the other animals on the planet, from the planet it's self. We are separated from Nature; or, rather we believe ourselves to be. That is a delusion, one that has Humanity spellbound.

The Human species is bound by the laws of Nature just as every other creature, and thing. Allowing ourselves the accommodation provided by our superior use of tools, our leisurely attitude has been that we can simply manipulate Nature to generate whatever we may want, regardless of the consequences. There is always a reckoning when it comes to Nature,,,there is no escaping it. Humans will either adapt to coevolve with the rest of the life on the planet, or simply fade away as gazzillions of others already have. 

All life on this planet co-evolved, swapping information in tiny, tiny organic packages. Our "expertise" has led us to believe that our science is flawless until of course newer science proves that incorrect, one point in particular has been assumptions about evolution. It has been described as survival of the fittest; those able to compete best, have adapted and survived. That is an assumption that our most current science is proving vastly untrue. The real key is the sharing of genetic information, and it always has been. Some may argue and say that indeed we see in Nature itself that the predator rules the jungle! I agree! The top dog in nature however does not destroy it's habitat, committing suicide. Nor does it abuse other creatures for any reason other than food, thus allowing for every creature in the mix to continue to thrive and share it's genes, propagating the continual growth of life in that place. It's isn't just a sharing of information, it is a sharing of the space, of the living area. The communal area shared by the animals of the planet is a graceful, elegant and beautiful wonder.

When was the last time you saw entire packs/schools/gaggles of animals literally going to war with each other, abusing each other, killing themselves as an act of wanton loneliness and despair? Let alone as a global epidemic. Well, never! They live in accordance with the laws so obviously set about them.

No, our natures aren't fallen, they are so sick and confused from thousands of generations believing that finding happiness can be achieved by working hard and using our tools to shape our reality, that we have completely fooled ourselves into thinking we have and do. We will have no choice but to rather shape ourselves to the reality of the Laws of Nature. 

Law, order, government, society, culture,,,all, are subject to Nature. Political ideologies all surrender to that as well. We are close to a reckoning, and political persuasions are all reeling from dealing with the realities of Nature now setting in. Do we need government? Yeah; but what we are going to get is something much bigger than that. It will be transformative, or we will be done.

I use the word "fallen" in conjunction with the Garden of Eden mythology. They were in Eden before "the fall" , then ego, divisiveness and evil entered the world. Whether you believe literally in the Bible or see it as allegory, I think it corresponds to a stage of human evolution, from the Christian point of view perhaps God-directed, where human beings developed self-awareness. 

Animals may have a primitive self-awareness, but they cannot express it. Human beings have a full blown self awareness that they cannot help but express. It is our ego. 

Yes, the need for government does enter in to it, because the impulse to take advantage of our fellows is baked into human nature. Without government and government "services" we would have some form of dog eat dog. 

We have to overcome our egos and raise ourselves on the evolutionary ladder. 

I think we agree Larry, with a slightly different approach. 

Yeah I think we have the same idea John. Creation mythology as allegory for human evolution is widely accepted; also, helping to further our understanding. When I think about it, the Judeo-Christian Creation myth is fairly elegant in it's simplicity. 

I would ask you to consider this statement...

Animals may have a primitive self-awareness, but they cannot express it.

This I do not believe. Awareness may very well be just as subjective as it infers LOL! Also I would ask: we are self aware, yet we are the ones destroying ourselves at an outlandish pace?! Perhaps "self" awareness' importance, is less relevant than "others" awareness.

Human beings have a full blown self awareness that they cannot help but express. It is our ego. 

Just think what sorta self-awareness humans might have if they lived in perfect relationship with the rest of nature as the animals do? Would it change our perceptions as to what is truly important to be aware of?  Ego may very well be our absorption in the self, that isn't necessary when our time, energy, and effort are all fixed on relationships and sharing, just as the rest of Nature does.

I believe it is perfectly natural to question the nature of our existence. In part, because "mankind" covers a pretty wide spectrum between Good and Evil. And that too, "good" and "evil" is ever evolving and subject to the morality of the time, culture, and social construct.

The idea of being "fallen", is inherent in modern Christianity, but mankind is a complex animal with a complicated history.

We've done amazingly good things, and the epitome of horrific. 

I guess that self-consciousness breeds these types of thoughts, and it's probably good that we question our nature at all.

I doubt that a shark ever wonders about it's own nature, nor most other animals.

Mankind, and "men" in general, are capable of so many things, and like most, I wish that we could ascend into the better, and forego the base motivations that so often poison our actions.
I don't know if there is any real way to get there, but I think it must start with asking ourselves the fundamental question about why we exist, and what we should do, and if the endless battle between our animalistic nature will prevail over our relatively, new found intellectualism.

I'd like to make mankind better, but like the rest of us, I know neither the question, nor the answer, that will get us there.

good to see you back in the saddle old timer

Thanks, it's good to see you as well. I trust you have been well!

well enough

I see that Chi-town finally tried to square things with Bartman. I recently watched "Catching Hell", and I had no idea as to what all that dude went through. Thank God he wasn't a Canadian, they might have killed him!

I feel sorry for him, but he should have left that ball alone. A true baseball fan knows when you are in the front row of foul territory you dont interfere with the home team player trying to catch the ball. That is a given. 

No need to crucify the guy though. The Cubs had a chance to win the next day. Then again by that point the voodoo had kicked in. 

Yes, but therein lies the rub...

Mankind takes a game, a leisurely pursuit, and uses it as an battering ram to demonize a guy that instinctively attempted to catch a ball. We can't even "have fun" without becoming villains.

that is a rub. i like the way you worked it in to theme of the article !

I doubt that a shark ever wonders about it's own nature, nor most other animals.

They don't have that burden, but we do. Maybe that is our challenge. 

I guess it is, be it blessing or curse. It's hard to study history, and not marvel at our past extremes. 

That said, one of my concerns is that I worry that we aren't really advancing. We evolve in some categories, but regress in others.

Moreover, I'm not even certain that we are actually working towards advancement. We ebb and flow between bad and worse. We just aren't "getting there". 

It's a dark path we walk....

That would seem to be the case.

There is nothing for us to have fallen from.

The world wide evidence, and the way " Evolution " works I have to say yes.

 Evolution states that only ~1% of any species will survive any " Flux " and I dare say that the World is indeed undergoing a " Flux " event  so that leaves us with a 99% extinction, and many would be pleased with that :-)

The creation myth is that God created human beings in his likeness, but the mere insertion of them from the supernatural (God's home) into the natural (our earthly home) led them to temptation and then a "fallen" status.

I don't read it exactly like that. I read it as, "God gave us free will, so inevitably we will sometimes be evil. Therefore we need a moral compass to find the right path, and God offers us His path."

"Good" and "evil" are meaningless without a choice between them. 

(And of course, the story is allegorical, not literal...)

I relate the Adam and Eve story , and their "fallen" status, to the development of self-consciousness in the evolutionary process of humans. Without self-consciousness there is no chance for shame, which overcame them after the fall. 

I recommend some reading what is on a photo posted in Photobucket, with the heading " Hawking and His God " let me know what you think about that " god" 

The Garden is a subtle story, with lots of possibilities and lots of different take-aways.

The notion of "shame" is fascinating. It cannot exist without criteria, which must come from somewhere... so... is "shame" an artificial construct?

IMHO, the Garden is an excellent example of what the Bible should be: "simple" stories that force us to think...