Intra ecclesiam nulla salus
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
In white America, there is no salvation inside the church.
The white American church is Bad. It makes people worse than they otherwise would be — more sinful, m0re lost. It is not merely a valley of dry bones, it is the machine that turns living flesh into dry bones.
Shut it down. Burn it down.
This is not hyperbole or exaggeration. Stretch as far as you can and you cannot reach those here. The fruit of white church is rotten. It’s toxic. It brings death and pain and blasphemy.
Look at this. See it. Understand what it says and what it means.
This evidence from the Pew Research Center proves that something has gone horribly wrong. 180-degrees wrong. Bizarro-world, opposite-day wrong. It’s a deplorable perversion. It is evidence of anti-discipleship, of spiritual malformation, of deception, of stony soil in which the seed of the gospel has not grown and cannot grow.
Anything short of Jonah 4-style lamentation and mass-repentance is an inadequate response to this. It calls for weeping and fasting, the rending of garments, anointing with ashes.
What this shows us, among other things, is that the more white Americans read the Bible, the less they respect it. Any of it — the books of Moses, the prophets, the wisdom literature, the Gospels, the epistles, the Apocalypse. Every section, every chapter, every page.
For white Americans, the more you go to church, the less you respect Jesus Christ. The less you follow Christ. The less you know Christ. The less you recognize Christ when he’s standing right in front of you.
Truly I tell you, the atheists and the unaffiliated are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.
The white American church is a lie. Those who say, “I love God,” and hate their brothers or sisters, are liars; for those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not seen. Whoever does not love does not know God.
That’s us. That’s the white church in America. It failed. It is failing. It is leading people away from Jesus, away from God, making them into twice as much of a child of Hell as they would be without it.
White church is bad. White church makes people bad. Inside the white American church, there is no salvation. The axe is at the root. Mene, mene, tekel upharsin.
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If possible, I would like to have my seeds moderated by Badfish or Uncle Bruce.
Awesome, Bob. Takes a lot of guts to seed something like this
Yep, Prepare for the verbal "lynching" .....lol
One of my favorite subjects... but forbidden on NT, because it "disturbs" some members. We are not allowed to speak of the things that are truly important.
If it was about Islam, would you be tooting the same horn ?
Most definitely NOT !
SAD !
WASPE vs BAME
White Anglo Saxon protestant extremist vs Brown Arab Muslim extremist
They are two sides of the same coin. Their religion has the same root, both consider Abraham a religious forefather. They both believe their religion is the only way to salvation. They both believe that if their religion asks them to physically fight their faiths enemies they should take up arms. They both push their religious faith into the laws and government of the countries they reside in. They both support some form of theocracy and wish their faith were established as the only true religion. They both have used explosives to supposedly "defend" their faith, clinics have been bombed by radicalized Christians and both civilian and political targets have been bombed by radicalized Muslims. Both of the extremist sides believe a holy war between these two major faiths is inevitable and thus both try to recruit and pull in as many to their cause as possible trying to build their religious armies.
Until they put down their weapons and accept that their personal faith should be a private matter between them and their God, not some outward war that needs to be waged, they will continue to instill fear and horror in the rest of humanity with their terrorism, violence and hate. Neither should be allowed any foothold in government or our public spaces.
That Makes it much better !
I see it's STILL up and running, although it breaks every rule in the COC.
What you say may be true, but it has nothing to do with the seed, which concerns only Christian church-goers in America.
Islam is off-topic. Thank you.
If you don't want to post on topic, please leave. Thank you.
Everything I have posted is about and ON "THE TOPIC" !
While I agree the seeded article only deals with white Christians in the US, it would be remiss to not point out that its focus is specifically on a segment of white Christian extremists and does not represent all white Christians. White Catholics consider themselves Christians and as the chart shows the majority are not against opening our arms to refugees and if combined with the white mainline protestant numbers which are just at half claiming we don't have any responsibility, that would put the combined total at below half of their members being anti-refugee.
Now, I dislike all of the Christian organized religions that I have studied including Catholicism, Protestantism, Lutheranism, Eastern Orthodoxy and Calvinism, but I do respect their right to exist under our constitutions freedom of religion protections. I don't believe any of them contain actual truth, so I don't believe any of them are going to "the Kingdom of God", but I do agree that there is a section among them that are virulently prejudiced and thus deem themselves worse people in general than other members of their Churches. And the same goes for other religions on the planet such as Islam. "It is me" tried to deflect using Muslim extremists as an example which I pointed out that those mentioned in the article are merely the other side of that extremist coin which I think is clearly still on topic. To say it isn't would be like seeding an article detailing gun deaths but blocking anyone who posts a comparison of gun deaths to knife deaths to show context.
No, the broader topic is, once again, a negative view of Christianity. The picture is used to imply that all Christians are bad and evil. This is done frequently in these forums. Differences of opinion can be expressed in several ways, like compare and contrast of other religions, and examples of why the article is biased, provocative, inflammatory, and wrong. Or are you simply looking have an echo chamber instead of a discussion?
No. The point of the seed is that there seems to be a direct relation between the fervency of the church and the indifference of its adherents to the plight of the less favored.
Clark says chuches have a negative impact on the ethics of their members.
It would have to be BF since Bruce isn't really around much seemingly. Why don't you message him?
That said, requests for moderation are handled by whoever is available at the time.
Well... if Bf is the new standard for Moderators on NT... I'm sure that all will be well...
BF has been doing a great job moderating, as fate would have it. Now, is that what you were wanting the conversation point to be here on this article?
Not at all. But as I understand the current rules on NT, anyone may post anything, so... hey!
Actually, though... I think the topic of the seed is very, very important. Not that I imagine many Honorable Members reading more than the title.
The seed, of course. What else?
But since I am accustomed to drawing lots of vandalism, I figured it might be helpful to call for Very Excellent Moderation, early on.
What are your thoughts about the content of the seed, Bf? Or would you prefer to Moderate, rather than participate? Either way, I have total confidence in your contribution.
Indeed.
So...
What are your thoughts on the topic of the seed? (Note that this is the second time I ask you this question... which is kinda sorta on topic, I think...)
I have TWICE asked you to post about the seed.
You asked me about my intent, and I replied clearly "the seed".
Please stay on topic. Thank you.
Don't be a putz, Bob. Spilt Personality and Peter loves the real tea party are also mods.
I read it. Does that mean I'm Dishonorable? LOL!
You're right. I was foolish. Now let's get back on topic.
Nah...not in the scheme of things is this inflammatory article in any way important. If you choose to throw it out there, deal with the responses it brings instead of hiding behind a moderator.
Yes it was!
Will this "Specific Religious Bashing" article be "LOCKED" ?
COC:
1. No direct or indirect derogatory references to other members
A derogatory reference is a negative statement about another member. Often this is called a personal attack. The best way to avoid a derogatory reference is to not make an uncomplimentary personal comment or include an insulting label. Basically, address issues and arguments, not individual members.
Derogatory references can be direct or indirect. A direct reference singles out the target (e.g. ‘you are a troll’). An indirect reference targets a category which includes the member. Derogatory statements attacking all within a category (e.g. liberals, conservatives, theists, atheists, Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, etc.) are indirect derogatory references.
6. No repugnant or harmful content
Hateful comments, articles and seeds – especially those against a legally protected class (e.g. racially / ethnically based) are prohibited. While cursing and other potentially objectionable content is allowed within reason, it should be used as seasoning – as emphasis. Gratuitous profanity and other repugnant language that does not support the point of the comment or is over-used is prohibited.
If one can't do an article about "Muslim" hate, another can't USE a "White Christian" Hate article either.
It even meets the "Skirting" claim of the COC.
It is really awful!
We will see what happens with this...… MAYBE !
If this article is allowed, then, any topic is allowed.
Why should this topic not be allowed?
What answer do you have for the author of the seed? Look at the data. It is limpidly clear.
NT COC rules ?
Or is Breaking the rules only for a few !
I'm withya !
From what I've seem not all "topics" last long.
I would suggest that the nature of NT lends itself to some more of the "dominate" members "seeding" seeds in their interests and of their ideologies.
Considering this is certainly a mixed idolocial forum we seem to have "dominate" members of both sides. Therefore we are likely to have seeding form both sides that push the "boundaries" of what the opposing side sees as acceptable.
so, we either have the options of not coming to a site like this, ignoring what we dont agree with, or stating our opinions.
I tend to do all three depending on where I'm at in life that day.
to each their own
While I agree with what you say, it is completely off-topic. Posting off-topic, and then trying to shift the conversation to "what is the topic?" is a classic way of derailing, destroying any seed that is disliked. Please don't assist the vandals in their task.
Thank you.
My intention was not to "assist" anyone. My intent and my post was to state my observations and believes (off topic or not.) I tend to do that. That's one of the reasons I come here.
Sorry if I occasionally break the rules I dont mean to. I'm just being myself.
There's nothing wrong with the topic of this seed. It raises questions as to why some churches preach the doctrine that they do considering that Jesus never saw people in terms of color or race. His primary command was to "love your neighbor as you do God"
That's pretty simple, but there are churches out there who either don't pay any attention to it or have bastardized it in such a way that you can't even recognize Jesus' first command.
Deleted {SP}
Stay on topic per the article
Comments that are disruptive to thoughtful discussion (e.g. trolling) are not tolerated.
see: policy ‘ Disruption ’
Meta comments (comments about the site or its members) are always off-topic.
2 day suspension for accumulated May violations ending 05/27/18 at 9:30PM EST.
After 29 Replies, not a single one actually discusses the topic of the seed.
Fred Clark gives us data that clearly shows that the least Samaritan of American Christians are Evangelicals. The people who turn their backs rather than "love one another" are the church-going, prayer-spouting Bible-thumping fundamentalists.
So... NT... What do you think of people who style themselves "Christian", but shout their hate?
I have many family members that consider themselves Christians, but their behavior tells a different story. One brother places gun rights above his right to practice his religion. When I asked him about it he said he as a Christian will always have religious freedom in this country because of his gun rights. I have two evangelical nieces that condemn people for personal choices and gossip about those people. Another brother claimed to follow the Wiccan path, but when he entered prison (again) he is "reborn" as a Christian.
I prefer my way - do as thy will, harm none.
This has been going on for long enough that I fear that many "Christians" have completely lost sight of Christ's teaching. And also... I suspect that a great many pastors are more concerned with politics than the souls of their flock. That's just... wrong...
I agree.
I have a "friend" who considers herself a Christian but gets on Face Book to bash her grandson's girlfriends and the mother of his children. I don't know what good that does but it's basically gossip IMO
My opinion as well. My one niece is divorced & remarried - think that is a big no-no, and she talks about others' sins.
This is not simple: "Nobody's perfect!" And nobody is perfectly Christian. It would be silly to expect perfection from anyone.
OTOH, there's a big difference between "not perfect" (bitchy on Facebook) and "consistently wrong" (racist).
Ok, I get what you mean.
But she's also racist and bigoted. She thinks she's better than me because I'm a non-believer.
That's irrelevant to a true Christian. Anyone who "loves their neighbor" is a follower of Christ, whether they know it or not. A good Samaritan is a good Samaritan, regardless of whether they know the Biblical story. Behavior is what counts, not words.
I don't think of them as Christians.
While I have many problems with the Catholic Church, their doctrine is more along the lines of my own thinking. Take care of your fellow man, your planet, and love your god which means love your neighbor.
I am a former Catholic. I have a lot of issues with the Church, but they do seem to care more about the poor than some other sects.
I was very interested to see that Catholics are more open to "others" than Protestants.
That shouldn't surprise anyone. The RCC has a pretty long (albeit flawed) history of supporting immigration and giving refuge to refugees. The funny part is that the church body understands that message better than the hierarchy......during Reagan's dirty wars in Latin America it was primarily Catholic churches here which were running underground refugee networks, while at the same time the Vatican was sucking up to brutal dictators and condemning the liberation theology priests who were rescuing the persecuted and preaching social justice and land reform.
This article is about refugees.
Nothing that you wrote resembles anything pertaining to Christians at Pew, It is your opinion.
Did you even bother to read the seed?
These statistics are about refugees....corrected my mistake.
These statistics are about Christians....corrected your mistake.
I went to Pew website and found nothing even similar to what you are claiming.
Look again. It's there.
Here's the info:
That is linked in the seed.
I don't speak for the rest of NT, but, for me, those who loudly shout their religious piety about being devout Christians, yet, speak loudly of their hate for anything or anyone that does not walk in lock step with their own beliefs, loudly belies their claim of devout Christian piety. And there are several here on NT that fit that picture. Yet, when confronted about their less than pious Christian thoughts or behavior, they will ardently deny their own words or behavior that is less than pious Christian behavior. It is always the the other person' that are wrong and falsely accusing them.
My own opinion.
You're over generalizing and condemning all people of faith, by trying to label them.
While I will agree that there is hypocrisy amongst some Christians, I myself find this flourishes with all mainstream religions to one degree or another. The common denominator would be the involvement of humans dragging all their drama, phobias etc. into the mix.
Having said that, while I myself am a heathen I know many Christians who practice what they preach and as an aside it would seem that those that have the least give the most.
This is no different than any other organization, there are good and bad people to be found everywhere.
Anyone that studies the bible understands that no human being is perfect and the overarching messgae fo the bible is to try to be as close to God as you can, some people are good at it, some are not. I would venture to guess those that broadbrush like 'white christian churches' are farther away from God's desires than most others that profess to be chrisitans.
Klu Kluxxers call themselves Christians. You and I don't think they are but that's what they call themselves. How do you tell them that they're not? Do you dare to tell them that they're not considering they do have First Amendment rights.
There's no need to guess. The data is there, in the seed. The author didn't invent anything.
Who cares about the Klan anymore. There aren't enough of them to cause trouble or to worry about.
Before Charlottesville, a String of Killings Raised the Specter of Far-Right Violence
But there IS a difference with other organizations. Christian churches, and their congregants, claim to follow Christ. That's kinda sorta why they call themselves "Christians". And the most basic rule for Christians, what Christ Himself called "the most important commandment", is "love one another".
That commandment is incompatible with racism, with despising "those people".
The precepts of Donald Trump are incompatible with those of Jesus of Nazareth. People have the right to follow Trump... but doing so requires abandoning Christ.
As I stated hypocrisy seems to go hand in hand. How they can square a relationship with Trump and their beliefs? I have no idea, but they seem to in their own minds. But to paint all Christians (or any other group for that matter) with that broad of a stroke is a bit of a stretch.
For myself (I will say again) religion or the lack of it is a personal matter best left that way.
Look at the data. Only the Catholics are on Christ's team. (And that's probably due to Latinos!)
It's the Christians who are painting themselves.
Not true, Bob, there are other Protestant churches who are on Christ's team. I'm thinking of the Catholic-lites....Episcopalians. The UCC is another group that practices what they preach. The Quakers. United Methodists.
Now....I know your data show something different but the fact is that there are Evangelicals who do walk the walk.
The data table shows only a few categories, so of course there are exceptions. That's how statistics work.
And keep in mind that the data is "average". So if you are right about Episcopalians being better than the average (and I think you are) then there must be other denominations that are worse than the average. That's how averages work.
I have family here in Yuma. Nice people. Loving parents. Church-goers. Racists.
That requires research on my part because I can't think of any mainstream Protestant churches that would openly declare racism in their doctrine.
Individual church members are a different story
How about lukewarm support for "others"?
As I read the seed, it is about people, not churches. Sometimes a the fine words of the conclave get lost before reaching the pew.
Not today maybe but don't forget that some of the Presbyterian sects split in large part on racial issues only a few decades ago, with the PCA splitting from the PCUSA on issues which included whether mixed-race marriage should be allowed and whether congregations should remain segregated. Of course the PCA still has problems on other basic civil rights issues like marriage equality, and only a year or two ago they acknowledged that racism was part of the reason for the sect splitting off from the PCUSA.
Southern Baptists are also still struggling with the racial issue to some extent and have felt the need to issue several statements condemning racism in their own sect in recent years.
To put it very, very mildly! The SBC is now more or less a sub-section of the Republican Party.
To that point the ACNA split from the TEC a few years ago, and I can guarantee that the ACNA is far worse on every civil rights issue across the board. All the ethical folks are in the TEC.
Liberty university is.
Complete nonsense, Trump is not a Christian, nor does he act like one. And getting back to the article, why is it a good thing to allow unlimited numbers of illegals (with embedded criminals) overrun the country.
Lots of his Christian followers think he is.
There must be a party purity test in the SBC.....I can't imagine that there are more than a small handful of SBC members today who are Dems. I also suspect the SBC has probably flipped several times on refugee & immigration issues since the SBC was founded as profoundly anti-immigrant and anti-Catholic. Somewhere along the way a very strong pro-labor and pro-immigrant aspect had developed in the SBC (ie Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton), but that was purged after the conservatives took over in the late 1970s.
The seed doesn't say this. Please read the seed. Thank you.
That's pretty much how I understand things.
You are very correct in this. I am a solitary 'witch', but belong to several Pagan groups in my area. There is one coven that denies entry to male witches. The high priestess dislikes men and it is very apparent. She asked me to join the coven & I declined.
One group I used to belong to gathered every last Tuesday of the month. I left the group because all they did was Christian bash. It was not what I signed up for and I told them they were no better than the Wiccan haters.
So it is everywhere - even in groups that are persecuted.
It's that human involvement again
Personally I prefer the company of canines, they make more sense to me.
I am more of a cat person.
Humans can ruin anything. Almost as bad as mosquitoes.
I know nothing about Wiccanism. Are there imperatives? Anything like "love one another" or "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?
These rules are basic, essential, fundamental, to anyone who pretends to follow Christ. They aren't required for non-Christians, unless those persons' religion has similar rules, as many do. IMNAAHO, any religion that doesn't have them is of little interest. But self-proclaimed Christians must make an effort to follow these basic rules, or forfeit their name.
Are witches supposed to follow some variation on the Golden Rule?
Most follow the rule - "do as thy will, harm none". I follow that and the power of three. Whatever I do shall return to me 3 fold - evil or good. Pretty much along the lines of the Golden Rule.
Interesting.
I'll have to find some time to do a little research. Do you have a link or two?
There are a couple regarding the Wiccan Rede & the power of three.
Thank you.
Anytime...
Very interesting, Veronica. Thank you for sharing them.
Your welcome.
According to Pew black Christians relate to Republicans more than Democrats. 78%
Link?
You know what the link is. You said you got your info there.
I have supplied no links to anything, during this conversation... so I have no idea what you are talking about.
I don't think that the behavior of most white evangelical sects on this issue is a new thing at all. They were generally anti-immigrant and anti-refugee even before the civil war. I'm also not at all surprised that there's a correlation to race where non-white Christians are more welcoming of refugees.
I'm a bit surprised by the middling percentages for Catholics and white mainline Protestants, but I suspect on the latter it varies a lot with the particular sect (ELCA would support refugees but right wing Lutherans would not). And the RCC has consistently been saying and preaching that Catholics have an obligation to welcome refugees, so the fact that the poll of that group is so low is maybe just a sign of the times in the odious Trump era? I wonder how Catholics in Germany or France would poll on this issue given that the refugee crisis is a far more immediate issue to them?
Latinos are a significant fraction, so.......
It would be good to see an ethnic breakout for Catholics, but anecdotally pretty much all the Catholics I know are not Latino and they're all overwhelmingly anti-Trump and pro-refugee. But 50% is still a surprisingly low level of support. I wonder if it's because the white Catholic demographic in the US has become increasingly conservative as liberal Catholics have left the church in disgust due to other issues?
I think that's a fair assessment
I know nothing about events within the Catholic church.
I saw it happening in the parish I was a member of for awhile.
The members, not the Church itself, became increasingly conservative.
My daughter stopped going to church because of all the political crap going on in the Church. She still considers herself Catholic, still believes in the tenets, but the church environment has turned her off.
I felt like that the other members really didn't give a shit about other people and were only there to network so they could make more money.
That's kinda like the money-changers in the temple..
I think it's happening everywhere outside of 3rd world countries where the RCC is seeing pretty much all of its growth. Otherwise even in the most Catholic of countries like Ireland there's been a steep decline in church attendance and Catholic identification. And it wouldn't be a surprise that the hard-core members are more conservative than average.
Side note - the Irish referendum on abortion is today. I'm hoping it goes the same way the marriage equality vote went.
A goodly portion of Latinos where who are legal citizens are Catholic, and largely do not support illegal immigration or having unvetted refugees coming into the country.
Source?
As someone raised in an evangelical home the poll doesn't provide any surprises, just further grieves my very being. Graphically indicating one reason I no longer consider myself part of the mainstream evangelical community.
The gospel message and discipleship has been replaced by the elevation of the church to seemingly help God fix the ills of the world by politicizing who is worthy of love. Gone is the message of unconditional and sacrificial love, humility and personal growth to become more like the One we are emulating. Grieves my spirit.
That's very sad... and I'd guess that there are many others like you.
Bed time. (Midnight, here in Calais.) I'll unlock in the morning.
Slept late (8:30!!). Sorry 'bout that.
Unlocked.