Single-motor Electric Vehicles? Lame, Says Jaguar
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Jaguar’s I-Pace seems to be Tesla’s greatest threat, if pre-orders in Europe (and glowing reviews) are anything to go on. The electric SUV, which arrives in the U.S. later this year, features twin motors and a combined output of 394 horsepower and 512 lb-ft of torque funnelled to all four wheels.
This is the only way to build a sporty electric car, Jaguar claims. Speaking at the model’s recent global launch, Jaguar Land Rover’s head of vehicle development, Wolfgang Zeibart, said the company threw out any ideas for a two-wheel drive version.
“If you really want a lame duck then you can do it,” he said. This mantra applies to future Jaguar electrics, which will almost certainly appear with the I-Pace’s platform underneath.
According to Wheels, Zeibart made sure to slam Tesla as he rhymed off the vehicle’s attributes. Features, it should be noted, that required a dual-motor setup to pull off. These include handling, traction, regenerative braking, wheelbase, and interior volume.
“The Tesla S was a single-motor design initially, and what that means is if you have only one driven axle you cannot put the wheel into this (I-Pace) position,” he said. “You must move it forward as you need load on the driven axle. When it moves forward you reduce the interior space and the available space for the battery. It’s one compromise after the other and therefore we decided two motors – full stop.”
To recoup maximum energy during regenerative braking, you’d want the electric motor mounted in the front, Zeibart said, but that would impact the car’s launch abilities.
“If you accelerate, the rear motor is the better motor,” he said. “If you want to recuperate, the front motor is the one. We can recuperate up to 150 kW, but if you only do it on the rear axle you are limited to about 60 kW. If you recover (only) from the front, any longitudinal force you apply reduces your available side force. This then makes the car unstable.”
The I-Pace’s purpose-built platform is “definitely scaleable,” Zeibart added, meaning we’ll likely see a range of vehicles built off the I-Pace’s bones. Perhaps a flagship sedan will be among those future models?
But back to Tesla, which Zeibart took every opportunity to poke in the eye.
“The Tesla has a disadvantage as the battery cooling is so poor,” he said. “They have round cells that are basically cooled by air and then they have a water plate underneath. Here (I-Pace), the cells are standing on a water plate so the cooling is much better.”
Tesla apparently refutes this assertion, but Zeibart doesn’t seem to care.
“What we have seen on the Nurburgring, the Tesla degrades rather quickly whereas this car runs the full lap,” he said.
When the I-Pace appears on these shores, it will carry a base sticker of $70,495 (after delivery). Food for thought for luxury EV buyers, as that’s $10k less than Tesla’s Model X. All Teslas stand to see their federal tax credit diminish before too long, too, thus widening the price gap between the two rivals.
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New technologies... renewable energy... All very cool.
But personally, I've never understood Tesla Motors. OK, they were first to market, and that's important.
Otherwise, though, Tesla has looked to me to be smoke and mirrors. The Chevy Bolt is the best mid-range electric (or really, the only mid-range electric... because Tesla continues to have problems getting its product out the door.) Tesla has sold some (how many??) high-end cars... in the absence of any competition whatsoever.
There are a ton of electrics about to hit the market. Pass the popcorn!
394 HP and 512 lbs of torque...WOW...
Interesting article, if I remember correctly is Jaguar now owned by Tata Motors of India?
The price differential between the two is substantial and certainly will factor into a buyer decision making.
Batteries, where are they stored?
... and of course electric motors develop maximum torque at zero RPM. ... Wow indeed...
Dedicated electric chassis have the batteries in the floor, saving space and lowering the center of gravity.
I love it but Jaguar has been around since 1935 and so far hasn't built a single reliable car.
Are you speaking from experience or relaying what you have heard?
Really never owned a Jag, but know folks who have for decades without the internet experiences.
When young, since I worked pretty much all my life, I bought a nice Austin-Healy 3000 GT MK2 "known for poor Lucas electronics". Never had a problem. Losing muffler over speed bumps? Yeah.
Also, keep in mind, as mentioned by Kavika earlier, Jag is owned by Tata. It is a new animal.
I understand there have been problems. No Doubt.
Since 1935 relative to everything produced? No.
Let me ask, since Tata has had time to put their stamp on things, what is your experience?
Bob,
How about a little toe to toe of the I-Pace vs 2 Teslas?
Jaguar I-Pace Faces Off Against Tesla Model X In Drag Race. Who Wins?
March 5th, 2018 by Steve Hanley
Taking a page out of the Tesla play book, Jaguar has pitted its brand new I-Pace electric SUV against two versions of the Model X in a drag race. Why? Because such media hype gets a lot of attention and sells a lot of cars. As part of the Formula E race weekend at the Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez outside Mexico City, Jaguar brought two racing drivers to the track’s drag strip.
Mitch Evans, who drives for the Panasonic Jaguar Formula E team, drove a Jaguar I-Pace. Tony Kanaan, who won the Indianapolis 500 race in 2013, piloted a pair of Model Xs, one a 75D and the other a 100D. The objective was to accelerate from a dead stop to 60 miles per hour and then bring the car to a complete stop. Which ever car covered the shortest distance would be declared the winner.
In the first race, the red I-Pace handily beat a white Model X equipped with the standard 75 kWh battery to 60. After that, stopping sooner that the Model X was easy, as the Jaguar was already a full car length ahead when the brakes were applied. But was that a fair comparison? After all, the Jaguar has a larger, 90 kWh battery.
To even things up a bit, Kanaan next moved to a gray Model X 100D with the optional 100 kWh battery. The contest was closer but the result was no different. This time, the Jaguar was a half car length ahead when it was time to throw out the anchor and still managed to cover a significantly shorter distance in the 0 – 60 – 0 contest.
Was the contest rigged? Were there other runs taken in which the Tesla won? If so, did the footage of those other runs wind up on the cutting room floor while this slickly produced video was being edited? No one knows. Or cares, more than likely. The point is that the I-Pace is listed as being about half a second quicker to 60 miles per hour than the base Model X. The results at the track seem to bear that out.
We know what you’re thinking. What about the mighty Model X P100D? Wouldn’t that blow the Jag into the weeds? Yes, in all likelihood, it would. And someday, when Jaguar gets around to building a dedicated, high performance version of the I-Pace, the two cars will go head to head on a track somewhere and one will win the official “quickest electric SUV in the known universe” title.
Until then, prospective I-Pace buyers can rest comfortably at night knowing that if they ever get matched up against a Model X at a stop light grand prix on the way to the office, they will be able to accelerate to 60 mph 0.4 second faster than the guy in the other lane. For some, that fact will be the difference between buying one car or the other. At least, Jaguar hopes so.
My Comment: Does anyone ever wonder why these EVs are only shown in drag races vs ICE powered cars?
Great fun!
Drag racing has never been high on my car criteria list, but the match-up does indeed tell us that Jaguar knows what its doing.
We have two ten-year-old cars in Calais, so I'm following the market closely. Unfortunately, Peugeot bought Opel (GM's European operations) just before the "Opel-ization" of the Chevy Bolt was ready, so we won't be getting the "best EV for the money".
Hmmmm? The Peugeot buy out has created problems in other markets too. There is an all out rejection of calling the Opel Insignia a Holden Commodore in the Land of Aus these days.
There is a third option in the Gen2 Nissan Leaf. The range isn't is the same category as the Bolt or Tesla 3 just yet, but a larger capacity battery is in the works.
Here is an objective and non technical article giving some insight. I will paste some of the write up here. Following the link will provide some good additional insight.
The one negative comment I have about all EVs is the zero emissions claim. At this state of the game few openly recognize the certain realities.
Such as plugging into the grid does in fact produce emissions somewhere. Less than ICE power? Yes, by a good amount given present loads.
The processing of Lithium. This is not inconsequential and with current technologies (unless something has changed) the cost and effort to recycle lithium puts lithium outside of the renewable category.
Then we need to look at the grids. Is anyone really ready for the additional load EVs will put on the current infrastructure and the costs to build the capacity to meet expected demand? Things such as this needs being put up front and visible now while so many are planning for a major switch in this direction so the whole picture can be considered in the planning stage. I don't see this happening at this time.
I have mentioned the Goodenough - Barga battery technology recently. This path really blows the lithium technology out of the water as regards energy density, charging time and discharging time (not overheating references in the original seed).
Dr. Goodenough is not a rookie. Is is 1/2 of the team who originally invented LI technology. He knows the weaknesses and has overcome them .
Alright enough of this. Here is the link to the Leaf article and some of the article itself. Following the link will provide a lot more insight.
Cheers.
We drove a new $38,000 Nissan Leaf to see how it stacks up against Tesla and the Chevy Bolt — here's the verdict
The Nissan Leaf is a true pioneer in the electric-car game. The Leaf's combination of perky performance, 100 miles of range, and easy-to-use demeanor made it a popular choice for those looking for pure electric mobility. Generous government incentives also helped move cars off dealer lots. Since its introduction in 2010, Nissan has sold more than 320,000 Leafs globally, making it the best-selling electric car in the world.
But alas, time and tide wait for no man.
Since 2010, the benchmark for EV performance has changed drastically . For consumers, 100 miles of range is no longer enough, especially after the release of the comparably priced 238-mile Chevrolet Bolt and the 220-mile Tesla Model 3 .
(Note: Tesla's 220-mile Model 3 has not yet reached production. The company is only producing the longer-range 310-mile version, which retails for upwards of $55,000.)
The Tesla Model S and Model X have set new standards for speed and utility, albeit at a much higher price.
So for 2018, Nissan introduced an all-new second-generation Leaf, one that's better equipped to handle this latest wave of competition.
"This is the car of the future, today," Nissan North America chairman Denis Le Vot told Business Insider in an interview at the 2018 New York Auto Show. "In that sense, it is a flagship of the company's technology." In addition to the Leaf, Nissan plans to launch eight fully electric models by 2022, Le Vot said.
Earlier this year, Nissan dropped off a blue 2018 Leaf for us to check out. It starts at $29,990 while our top-specced SL tester started at $36,200. With options, our Tennessee-built car carried an as-tested-price of $37,865. It should be noted that EV tax incentives could knock thousands of dollars off the sticker price depending on where you live.
That's the final word, I think.
In our French context, we need 400 km - 250 miles - of autonomy. The Bolt comes close......
In our Arizona context, we need... a lot more!
Then, if not pressed for a short term car replacement I would recommend researching when the upgraded battery for the Leaf will become available and then taking the associated cost into the decision.
I'm keeping aware... and hoping the old Citroëns keep chuggin'...
It still looks like a petrol vehicle. Tesla is dedicated to be a real Bell-curve breaker and obviously the benchmark Jaguar was trying to aim at. It seems the designers of this vehicle shoot for "Meh" when it comes to aesthetic. It looks like a 2018 Ford Focus.
Making high priced toys for the rich is one thing but the only way to get average people to buy electric cars is to make buying and owning them cheaper than gas cars. The entry level Leaf costs 29.990 while a comparable quality gasoline compact costs under 20.000 and the gasoline the car will use if it averages 35 mpg will cost 8571.42 for 100,000 miles of driving (at 3.00 a Gallon) leaving 1418.58 for maintenance before you equal the cost of the leaf. The Leaf will cost 3142.85 in electricity for 100,000 miles at a rate of 11 cents a KW, more if you live in a hilly area. Since Brake, Tire wear, insurance, etc will be about the same for both cars we need only concern ourselves with the difference in engine/fuel system maintenance, I'll estimate you'll need 3 air filters and 20 oil changes at 1100.00 in 100,000 miles leaving 318.58. I don't know about the Leaf but most Electrics won't need "Motor" Maintenance but the Battery Pack will need to be replaced. Tesla's lithium-ion battery pack is said to last 5 years or 100,000 miles and replacement costs 30,000 but the Leaf's can be replaced for 5,500 plus a 1000 core charge plus installation, taxes. Now the sales Tax on a 20,000 car is cheaper than on 29,990 car and a plug in Electric will require a new outlet at your home, is it 110 or 220 ? If it's 220 there's a good chance you'll need a new fuse box. The Biggest issue with electric cars besides cost is range the Leaf has 124 miles (LEAF 24kWh) or up to 155 miles (LEAF 30kWh), so if you like to take trips the leaf is only good as a second car. I've always thought an Electric would be an Ideal Second Car but neither I or the Average Family is going to pay "more for less", less power, less flexibility, less range, much longer fueling times (8 hours Vs. 2 minutes). Then there's the resale value problem, who's going to buy an Electric at 80,000 miles when they know there's a 6,000 dollar battery replacement at 100,000 miles, Compare that to a Quality Gas Car at 80,000 which most Used Car Purchasers would consider "just broken in" with a good 200,000 miles of nearly trouble free miles to be expected.
That is a big problem for EVs and many do not consider this. Realistically many will consider batter EOL as a good time for trade in.
Who wants to buy a used car in need of new battery pack?
I am waiting on an understanding of this cost with regard to Goodenough-Barga battery replacement for a better overall understanding of the technology vs LI technology.
There's a lot of that going around...
That replacement cost will be taken into account when they price the car for resale. It's expensive but its not a deal breaker if the rest of the car is in good shape. $1500-2k. It is cheaper and faster than rebuilding an ICE.
Maybe worth studying more, but I am not sure that is the exact correlation.
Still, I am waiting on some cost expectations on the Goodenough-Barga battery technology. For best efficiency lithium is replaced by sodium, it can charge much faster, discharge claims are in the 2 1/2 times faster range without heat issues, can go through many times more charge/recharge cycles and has 3 times the power density.
Wondering how the lab numbers will work out in real world applications.
E.A See also Induction Driving as well as Charging, and to allay your fear on " Clean Energy " PV panels on owners Home and Parking Garage at work and the Vehicles are 100% Solar Powered and 100% Efficient and non polluting!
Listen. I will tell you once.
Do NOT pose to quote me and then substitute your own words.
You totally twisted my words and intent.
Do NOT do it again.
GOT IT?
EA,
When using the "quotation button", the text must be a direct quote.
If you wish to paraphrase, you should clearly state that you are paraphrasing rather than quoting.
Thank you.
E.A Touchy, I was responding to a STATEMENT, with MY Personal VIEW, is that somehow NOW banned on NT?
E.A So how does one show that one is responding to someone's STATEMENTS with their Viewpoint, or is that now ILLEGAL?
Framing someone with a lie has been banned in all civilizations since Sumeria was a world power.
Trying to justify a lie is only digging a deeper hole.
E.A Lie, are you now saying that I lied to YOU and the Forum!!!
What more disgusting position can YOU hold?
Never Mind WE are done, seek medical help!
You are parading around like you are Albert Einstein yet you really don't know what a quotation is? Let alone changing the words within the quotation and not seeing a problem with that?
Sorry. Not buying it.
I flagged EA's post, so we can hope for a ruling from a Mod sometime within the next... well... sometime, anyway...
In the meantime, let's drop that line, OK?
Thank you.
LOL Me, are You Sure::
Here is a synopsis of Your Hero!
This is the first time the diaries have been published as a standalone volume in English.
Published by Princeton University Press, The Travel Diaries of Albert Einstein: The Far East, Palestine, and Spain, 1922-1923 was edited by Ze'ev Rosenkranz, assistant director of the California Institute of Technology's Einstein Papers Project.
Einstein travelled from Spain to the Middle East and via Sri Lanka, then called Ceylon, on to China and Japan.
The physicist describes arriving in Port Said in Egypt and facing "Levantines of every shade... as if spewed from hell" who come aboard their ship to sell their goods.
He also describes his time in Colombo in Ceylon, writing of the people: "They live in great filth and considerable stench down on the ground, do little, and need little."
…
But the famous physicist reserves his most cutting comments for Chinese people.
According to a piece in the Guardian about the diaries, he describes Chinese children as "spiritless and obtuse", and calls it "a pity if these Chinese supplant all other races".
In other entries he calls China "a peculiar herd-like nation," and "more like automatons than people", before claiming there is "little difference" between Chinese men and women, and questioning how the men are "incapable of defending themselves" from female "fatal attraction".
Yup.
As of today, a good, well equipped small gasoline-powered car is a better deal than an electric. OTOH, five years ago, the comparison was much worse.
You don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing...
It is not just petroleum going away. In the future I expect they will marvel we were allowed autonomous driving...
Probably the big cities will lead the way but the system we have now is unrealistic to continue very much longer.
Agreed.
Lots of changes coming in the next decade...
Here is a serious problem with that, which I doubt will ever be eliminated.
Since my return to our world, I have been closely involved with SW development, testing, implementation, etc.
There is no such mythical animal as perfect software. None, nada, zip, zilch. It does not exist, even in the realm of NASA. Yes.
The recent example of the woman run over by an autonomous test vehicle is an example. Of course it was a level 2 with a non-attentive idiot behind the wheel. Yet there was absolutely nothing complicated about the situation.
SW will never be perfected, especially in the open source environment praised often these days.
Without a doubt, given the pendulum swing the technology will be implemented. This will carry it's own down side.
Nobody's expecting autonomous cars to be perfect. But let's face it... humans are far from perfect.
About ten years ago, I was in two successive accidents, fairly nasty, both due to stupid, incomprehensible driver errors by the other vehicle. I don't have statistics, but I'd bet that an awful lot of accidents are like that. And I'd also bet that most of them would not happen with an autonomous car.
The change will be progressive, beginning on freeways and spreading gradually from there.
What you state is true yet we must map that against the known expected faults of autonomous vehicles.
I hope corporate artificial milestones do not drive the implementation process.
Most folks behind the wheel probably are safer this way.
Some, however, are much better than autonomous vehicles, especially after a SW "upgrade" commonly known as downgrades.
It is an interesting time.
So, I should bring this back up from an earlier post.
The original seed made a reference to over heating that is probably not fully understood by most.
The reference to over heating.
EVs vids are aimed, of 1/4 mile drag races, at folks who do not understand the full picture of present implemented technology.
For example, take a high end Tesla and put it against a Focus RS at Virginia International Raceway (VIR) and the killer 1/4 Tesla loses by over 15 seconds.
Why?
Overheating.
Put it against a GT350 and it loses by about 1/2 minute. (could vary, not looking at the charts)
Overheating a lithium battery in an automotive application is not an insignificant issue. Such things along with quick charging lead to conditions of internal shorting of lithium ion cells resulting in catastrophic conflagration.
Not good.
The quick solution of LI technology, which most are trying to follow is a dated technology, fraught with known issues and not in any way renewable at this time.
Another technology such as the Goodenough-Braga battery or other is needed.
Autonomous vehicles? I would rather use my Father 1959 F-350 flat bed.