Creationism vs. Flat Earth: Which belief is more irrational?
Creationism and flat Earth beliefs are both irrational beliefs, usually based on nothing more than dogma, willful ignorance, or emotional dependency. Both beliefs fly in the face of scientific knowledge and understanding, and require a suspension of rational and critical thinking, not to mention quite a cognitive dissonance. As absurd as they are, which is the more irrational belief? Let's compare them in three categories and determine a "winner."
Round 1: core tenets.
Creationism is basically the belief that God created everything as is; the universe, Earth, and humans (and other species) as we are. It generally ignores sound scientific principles like evolution and adheres to an often literal interpretation of the bible. Typically, Young Earth Creationists (YEC) believe the Earth is roughly less than 10,000 years old while Old Earth Creationists (OEC) allow for an Earth to be in the millions or even billions of years old (God still created everything in OEC, but he just let things run on automatic for awhile). Creationism has been historically, and continues to be, a popular belief.
The Flat Earth belief posits that the Earth itself is not rounded like a sphere, but is actually flat (although it can also be a flat disk to give the appearance of roundness). Flat earth adherents reject any claims of a spherical Earth and shrug off any proof to the contrary as false, misleading, and even as conspiracies meant to fool people. They may even refer to the bible to reason that the earth is flat. However, while followers of either belief might strongly adhere to their belief, there is a segment of creationists (the OEC) who allow for some injection of established scientific principles with regard to the age of the earth or evolution (although God is still the root cause of everything). Therefore, Flat Earth narrowly edges out over creationism. Winner Round 1: Flat Earth.
Round 2: Adherents/popularity
While the idea of a flat earth dates back many centuries, the ancient Greeks (among other societies) developed the concept of a spherical earth. Believers of a flat earth would continue until even modern times. Today, there is even a Flat Earth Society. However, until modern times with social media, the idea of a flat earth never gained too much traction. Sure there may have been surges in the popularity or belief of a flat earth, but it always seemed more of an afterthought. Social media has been a tool for flat earthers to expose themselves and try to convince others of their views or make the idea of a flat earth more mainstream, especially among millennials. But they always seem more willing to "hide in the shadows" as it were. The current iteration of the Flat Earth Society has approximately 500 members, although there are likely more people who are flat earthers.
Creationism, on the other hand, has likely far more numbers of adherents. A gallup poll several years ago indicated that 4 in 10 Americans (not counting other countries) subscribe to a creationist belief. That's roughly 125 million Americans. That's also a very sad commentary on our society too. Creationists win this round by sheer numbers alone. Winner round 2: Creationists.
Round 3: Evidence/proof
I use the terms "evidence" and "proof" very loosely in this context, as there is no objective, valid evidence/proof of either creationism or a flat earth. But both sides will certainly try to propose their idea of proof, which is often based on subjective reasoning, personal beliefs (or the regurgitation of another's beliefs or teachings), or opinions. Both sides also show a profound lack of understanding of actual science when showing their proof. Creationists will often cite "proof" such as the lack of transitional fossils, the limited time available which negates evolution, or just simply referring to the bible as the be all, end all authority on the matter (and reject anything else outright). In other words, "God did it, the bible says so, I believe it. 'Nuff said!"
Flat earthers might claim the Antarctic is actually an ice wall which prevents anyone from "falling over the edge of the world. Gravity is an illusion and the concept of a spherical earth is a conspiracy by scientific organizations (such as NASA). Their "proof" is often cryptic or just a great exercise in mental gymnastics. Flat earthers might also use scripture as "proof." But we do have proof of a spherical earth: images/videos from space, horizon curvature, satellite positioning, ect.. So the idea of a flat earth is discredited outright. Creationism too for that matter. However, what puts flat earthers ahead on this one is their often humorous or face-palm inducing attempts to rationalize their position. Therefore, Winner round 3: Flat Earth.
By a score of 2-1, the winner (or loser depending on your perspective) is Flat Earth.
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Let's face it, both creationism and flat earth are equally absurd. But there is something just slightly more groan-inducing about flat earth beliefs. What are your thoughts? Are there any other comparisons which can be made? Which side do you think should win?
I would say there is something A LOT more groan-inducing about flat earth beliefs.
I don't know. Whenever someone from either side tries to explain or make assumptions based on either belief, I do a groan (sometimes with a face palm too). Lol
I feel just about the same groan when faced with people who believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old.
Much like ancient measurement tools had to estimate the distance between cities, the measurement tools for the age of the earth we have today often can only get within a few thousand years. To a young earth creationist this presents a loophole, to anyone with any sense it's easily understood. Much like in ancient history when estimating the distance between Rome and Paris, the estimate was 1,100 kilometers. With a young earth creationist it is like claiming that because the estimate was 1,100 kilometers but wasn't exact, then maybe Paris was only 100 meters away from Rome. The earth is 4.543 billion years old +/- 50 million years, but young earthers claim because it isn't exact, maybe it's only 10,000 years old. That to me is as crazy as a flat earther.
$20.00 says that the majority of Flat-Earthers are bored reddit trolls just looking for laughs. People can't be that stupid in 2018.
I'd say you and Gordy aren't giving sufficient deference to sincerely held superstitions! After all no matter how high you go the horizon is always at eye level. That alone should debunk the round earth theory (and note that it's just a theory anyway). The earth is flat; any fool can see that.
Of course [slaps forehead]. It's all so obvious now. Why did I not see that sooner?
Wanna bet? you still have people who believe in creationism in 2018. Flat earth is not so much a stretch.
Half of Trump voters still believe Obama was born in Kenya despite all the evidence to the contrary. 60% of them believe there were millions of illegal immigrants who voted for Hillary in the last election despite there being no proof. 80% of them refuse to accept that Russia was behind the hacked emails and release to wikileaks despite all the evidence proving they were. 31% of Trump supporters believe vaccines cause autism. 46% of Trump supporters believed Hillary was running a satanic child sex ring out of a Pizza Parlor. 37% of them believe that the number of uninsured has risen in the last 5 years despite the facts.
Heck, 30% of Americans couldn't recall the year 9/11 occurred. What happened to hashtag "neverforget"? 29% of Americans couldn't find the Pacific Ocean on a map. Is it really any wonder that a majority of Republicans don't believe in global warming, believe Obama raised their taxes during his two terms (he lowered taxes for 95% of Americans), believe abstinence only education works and believe Saddam Hussein was involved in the 9/11 attack?
People are still plenty stupid in 2018 and I expect most of them, especially Trump supporters, will remain that way for decades to come since they prefer to ridicule higher education, facts and evidence than to actually try to learn something new.
This is frightening indictment of the US school system. Holy sheepdip!
Couple that with religious indoctrination and/or irrationality, as we see with the numbers who accept creationism as valid, and you have the makings of a dumbed down population.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - Here is a map of the Earth and it sure as hell looks flat to me....
What kind of strange fantasy-land is this map from?
It's as much of a fantasy as the belief that the world isn't flat. Does it look spherical to you? See, that's PROOF that the world is flat.
Flat earthers might claim the Antarctic is actually an ice wall which prevents anyone from "falling over the edge of the world.
They should really consider organizing an expedition to prove this. All of them.
According to them, the ice wall is proof. See, no effort (or thought) required.
that seems to be the core of both beliefs in the article, in my opinion
I'd say your opinion is spot on.
Here's some detail on the Antarctic ice wall, and note that no one to date has returned from What Lies Beyond:
I am sure the devils at NASA make anyone crossing the ice wall vanish.
I've actually heard someone say that. Or that attempts to fly over the wall result in getting shot down.
So the earth isn't flat per se? But is actually more shaped like a bunt cake mold....interesting.
It helps explain what happens when the wind blows from the north......it goes all the way to the Antarctic ice wall where it gets sucked inside the edge of the earth, then pumped back to the center of the disc (what we call the north pole).
Flat Earth beliefs contradict one of the most fundamental, observable aspects of nature. The level of mental confusion required for someone to actually believe the Earth flat seems impossible to achieve for a normal functioning human brain.
Creationists, on the other hand, simply believe that the universe was created by a sentient force. At that level of abstraction, the belief is a possibility - not precluded by modern knowledge. Creationists whose beliefs are based on the Bible, however, do run up against contradictions that require a lot of word-play, equivocation and compartmentalization.
Even so, I think the flat Earthers win hands down.
It's reasonable to ask why "spherical earth" apologists (like astronauts) would lie about it but there are many reasons :
I think the Flat Earthers are just flat out wrong. The only thing that is 'flat' is that which takes up space between their ears.
I cannot even imagine what would cause someone to be convinced in 2018 that the Earth is flat. This goes far beyond conventional belief because what they believe is demonstrably, worldwide wrong.
Just like with many other things in this world, and it really is noting new, there are some people who will believe anything they are told to believe. The Jim Jones cult comes to mind. There are many weak minded and wear willed people who will believe whatever they are brain washed to believe. Fear also plays a big part in their willingness to believe what they are told, no matter how inane and totally unrealistic it may be. So yes, there are people who are willing to be led by the nose and loyally follow along with what they are told to believe.
Actually, we see a bit of that right here on NT.
Which is why they edge out over creationists in irrationality.
A more interesting comparison might be between Young Earth Creationists and Flat Earthers. Unlike general creationists (those who simply believe in a creator god - many of which accept evolution as fact) the YECs believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. To hold that belief they are of course denying science left and right (especially all dating methods) and backing themselves into truly absurd corners of logic requiring they make claims such as dinosaurs coexisting with human beings.
I included them as part of the general creationist camp. But I see your point.
After listening to some Flat Earthers and Creationists over the years, I started to like the movie "Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy" even more. That planet creating factory at the end made about as much sense as Flat Earth and Creationist views!
Both are irrational, but flat Earthers have to work awfully hard to ignore that there are living human beings who were able to directly view the Earth as a sphere, and record their observations for the rest of us to observe. Never mind the fact that we can directly observe that there is an actual horizon beyond which we are unable to see, even with a good telescope, simply because our view is occluded by the curvature of the Earth.
Flat Earthers are more irrational.
Hands down Flat Earthers. While there are mental gymnastics required for both beliefs, the ones required for a belief in a flat earth are Olympic calibre.
If one assumes a spherical earth and posits that the equatorial speed of the earth is about 1000 miles per hour, this is faster than the speed of sound so someone standing east of you would never be able to hear you.
QED, the earth is flat. Any idiot can plainly see and hear that.
That is hilarious.
We won't consider the relative velocity of the earths surface and the atmosphere.
Fortunately the ice wall of Antarctica holds in both the oceans and the atmosphere, otherwise they'd leak out over the edge and we'd be really screwed.
Thank goodness for the ice wall.
Do they live in Westeros, are there the Men of the Nights Watch who hold the Wildlings and the Others from beyond the wall at bay?
Norman-D found this recently - we thought it was more appropriate here.
Obviously a book-shaped earth isn't possible. It's more like an ice cream cone. Here's a top view and a side view:
Does the solar wind cause the ice wall as it blows by the edges of our ice cream cone world, lol?
Welll,....I'm sure glad that they at least left the North Pole. Otherwise, where would Santa make all his toys? ??
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The lead question is an easy one. 'Creationists or flat earthers?' The answer is both. Its in the bible somewhere ain't it?
I agree that Cretinism is absurd, but note that esteemed rapper, musician and producer B.o.B. has recently accepted membership to the Flat Earth Society. What more proof do you need that the earth isn't a sphere?
Well done. Cretinism is much more apt as a description of 'creationism.
What puzzles me however is...…….Is it a noun, verb or adverb?
Creationism is the only reasonable explanation for the earth and has NOTHING to do with the flat earth myth
The myth that Christianity believed in a “flat earth”
First of all the Bible says just the opposite (Isaiah 40:22 as an example)
Secondly and most critically, this myth was invented in the late 19th century by critics of Christianity in an attempt to dismiss religious belief
Logic also disproves religious belief.
Larry, the Flat Earthers are definitely on your side. Even their web site says that scientists and other skeptics were trying to hide the truth of the bible.
Nonsense. Logic has never done any such thing
christianity is based upon reason coupled with faith.
atheism on the other hand is a powerful belief system requiring tremendous faith in the unprovable
I agree Larry, the only reasonable explanation is that the earth was created by a very large but invisible sky demon. The only unanswered question is what the demon stood on while he was forming the plane of the earth.
Religion is a test of logic that most people fail because they are more driven by emotions than by facts. Prove that there isn't a teapot orbiting in the Kuiper belt?
Why do you believe in something that has no supporting evidence? A belief is what you are left with when you make an emotional decision but have no facts to support it. Even the scientific concept of a hypothesis has more to support it than theistic religious belief.
That is nonsense. Atheism is the statement that there is no god because there is no empirical evidence of such an entity.
Uh, wrong! Creationism explains NOTHING! It's a failure to explain. And flat earthers sometimes invoke the bible to justify their beliefs.
No one said Christianity itself believed in a flat earth.
The idea of a flat earth goes back many centuries. Flat earth societies as an organization got its start in the 19th century, although they were rather small and never quite became mainstream.
Reason and faith are polar opposites.
Wrong again.
You mean like Christianity or any other religion? Unless you can prove there's a god?
And YOUR God IS provable? By all means Larry, enlighten us.. LOL
Huh? Explain that, please... I am DYING to hear you explain how THAT is the only reasonable explanation...
What an odd thing to claim. If you truly believe this, can you explain your reasoning?
Because "god did it." Lol
Somehow, I doubt you will get any explanation. At least, nothing reasonable at any rate. But I'm curious to hear one too. Either from him or anyone else who believes in creationism.
Never do. Either no response or an answer to a question not asked.
Creationism vs Flat Earth.
See # 7.2
Bingo
Not that I have a million dollars. If I did, I would offer it to the first Flat Earther willing to sail until they fell off of the edge. They money would go to their survivors.
The simplest proof that the earth is flat is that no one has yet returned from What Lies Beyond the Antarctic ice wall.
Also note that the fact that the earth is flat doesn't necessarily mean that an explorer would fall off the edge. One theory holds that the earth is just part of an infinite flat plane with the region of the earth surrounded by the ice wall of Antarctica.
Surely someone has a panoramic picture of this all-encompassing ice wall. I want to see it.
I wouldn't be surprised if NASA hid all information related to the ice wall.
I feel stupid for just thinking of this idea now. How do we possibly have magnetic north and south with a flat earth? Merely the existence of a compass as a tool of navigation proves that a flat earth is impossible.
In a flat earth scenario, the Antarctic circle would be much large than the current globular equator. The equator would not and could not exist in a flat Earth. Roald Amundsen could not have reached what does not exist.
I'll bet a flat earther would make something up to attempt to rationalize that.
The lack of a molten iron core means that we would not have either gravity or magnetism as we now experience it. The various phases of the moon would not look as they do now. A new moon would look like a French macaron or an ellipse if we still have a 23° tilt.
They're big piles of refrigerator magnets.
Duh.
See, right there.
There is always a simple solution.
I think Sandy gave us the most reasonable answer about the magnetism issue.
As for gravity, that's easy. Obviously there are some centrifugal and centripetal forces creating the sense of this clearly false force labeled as "gravity".
It just means that the compass points to the giant magnet at the north pole no matter where you walk around the pole. Duh.
Will Elon Musk convert that to an electromagnet powered by green energy?
Well shoot. Go ahead. Ruin my fun.
But what all the giant refrigerator magnets at the north pole require is that they all be magnetic monopoles (I think that might be some kind of ethnic slur).
Both are idiots.. So...toss up..
Wait... So flat Earth....um....people...can see the other planets, and they can obviously determine that THOSE planets are all round....but somehow, the Earth is flat...???? WTF?
Obviously there no other planets, it's all part of the NASA conspiracy
Yeah, like man walking on the moon.
Lol exactly
Those bastards! LOL
Pluto isn't a planet it's really a dog....Oh hells bells what a disappointment
Filmed on a sound stage in Burbank.
Hmmm.....I wondered where Pluto hid its ears. I guess planets don't have ears? ??
Hollywood magic, right?
No, other planets are flat too. We're simply seeing them from 1 side only and planets are flat disks. So they only look round. See, perfectly reasonable. Lol
Well, shit.. Guess I will go watch the documentary, "The Flintstones", and be done with it.
Good idea. It's very well done and informative.
Here's the official explanation:
I believe I have posted this before on NT, but this is very appropriate for Gordy's article.
In four minutes you can get a feel for the thought process ... so to speak.
"Water seeks its own level", huh?
I agree.
And why do we think that is, exactly?
These people seem to suffer from severe confirmation bias.
Here's a longer one (20 minutes) that'll make you wish the Earth really was flat so you could go to the edge and throw yourself off.
A few people in this one emphatically use something in the Bible as evidence. I don't usually hear that one.
Pretty much proof that the human mind is capable of believing anything.
Imagine how easy it was back in ancient times to convince people of gods and demons.
Delusion is a powerful thing.
If that girl was a little more unzipped in the front, I would believe anything she wants me to believe.
Hell, look at how easy it is today.
That was my point.
Yeah but it would be difficult for her to make a flat argument under those conditions.
By the way, Gordy, my answer to your article's question is the Flat Earth belief. Definitely more irrational. Maybe the most irrational belief out there.
Combine how easy it is to make people believe things with the ability to make a living off of it, and presto! Organized religion.
I can see it now, the world's first entrepreneur... "Provide for me, the priest or shamen, and I will make sure that whatever god I can make you believe in will bless you and treat you favorably. Just bring your valuable offering in once a week and set it on the altar. I'll take it from there." *wink wink*
Religion yields power and money for those behind the scenes. Always has. And nowadays this lucrative enterprise can operate tax-free. Kenneth Copeland is the exemplar for this nowadays. What an amazing bullshit story he and his cronies tell: prosperity theology ! And people believe this crap and send them money. This just kills me.
I can't believe some of that stuff is legal. Do you know if any of those Copeland types have ever been sued for tricking elderly people into giving away their savings to the church? I think I've heard of that happening, but I'm not positive.
Wasn't there someone not too long ago claiming that God wanted him to have a brand new private jet or something? How do these guys have followers? Their crookery seems so obvious.
Jesse Duplantis is who your thinking of.
There are lots of desperate people out there and there are lots of people willing to take advantage of that desperation.
Most of those who got caught in a way that hurt their 'ministries' got into trouble with IRS, exposure of personal problems, exposure as frauds, etc. Rarely (from what I have seen) are these people sued by their victims (or by others). Seems like an obvious class-action lawsuit to bring forth.
Yes, Ken Copeland's best buddy Jesse Duplantis.
Creflo Dollar also needed a new jet, I believe. Aptly named, isn't he?
Lol I had to google it, too funny. I guess he didn't think his real name (Michael Smith) had enough pizazz.
Flat earthers have nothing to fear but sphere itself.
Nice
Nicely done.
Well played, sir.
I'm waiting to see if there are going to be any defenders or proponents of creationism or a flat earth here to support either viewpoint. So far, only one has advocated creationism, and he is now conspicuously absent after being challenged or questioned regarding the fallacy of creationism. Not surprising actually.
Larry is still very proud that the "right" side won the Scopes trial.
I'm not surprised.
I'll bet his thoughts about evolution goes something like this:
Ridiculous things dreamed up by some and, worse, believed by others.
Possibly worse than that: used to scam others, ie. the Ark Encounter/Creation museum.
Ken Ham also managed to get quite the tax break for his scam. So he scammed the county in order to be able to scam patrons.
He's quite the con artist. And people are quite gullible too.
No doubt about it. The guy is a good businessperson. He runs a solid organization — AiG — that is based on provable bullshit. That is impressive.
It helps when there are lots of people who buy into his BS too. Especially if it conforms to their dogma.
Flat earth is more irrational because we can prove the earth is round.
The idea that a "creator" created the earth and life on earth cannot be disproven in the broad sense.
But we can also prove the Earth is more than 6000 years old too.
It cannot be proven either. So there's no reason to assume there is a "creator." And scientific experiments have shown a "creator" is not entirely necessary either.
For example?
The Miller-Urey experiments demonstrated that life is capable of forming under natural circumstances and conditions without the need for outside intervention. The evolutionary process contradicts the notion of some outsidr guiding process.