Prayer Is Not Inaction
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
( I deliberately left out some of this article, because it refers to a news story almost a year old (the article itself is that old) and I thought that might distract from a discussion of what is here.)
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/10/thoughts-and-prayers-las-vegas/542319/
....Prayer is not inaction. I would argue that it is perhaps the most powerful form of action you can engage in during a crisis—and that’s true whether you believe in God or not. There are good reasons why prayer remains a daily activity for more than half of all Americans (55 percent), including about one in five religiously unaffiliated people or “nones.” Even for those of us who aren’t sure that God exists and that our prayer can change God, prayer can certainly change us.
Neuroscientific research conducted over the past few decades has found that prayer can radically reshape the human brain, leading to increased focus and peace. In the 1990s, neuroscientist Andrew Newberg famously studied the brain scans of 150 people from different religions, from Franciscan nuns to Buddhist monks. He found that those who engaged deeply in prayer for 12 minutes a day over a couple of months had activated frontal lobes and quiet parietal lobes. The result? Those who prayed regularly were more focused, less anxious, and felt more connected to other people.
Sara Lazar expanded on Newberg’s findings in 2014. A Harvard neuroscientist, Lazar had been surprised to find how much her life improved as a result of meditating for a few minutes during yoga classes, which she initially attended purely as a form of physical therapy. So she conducted several studies and found that a half-hour of meditation each day yielded differences in brain volume after just eight weeks. Brain scans showed thickening in four areas: the posterior cingulate (involved in mind wandering), the left hippocampus (involved in learning, cognition, memory, and emotional regulation), the temporoparietal junction (involved in empathy and compassion), and the pons (involved in the production of regulatory neurotransmitters). The scans also showed that the amygdala (involved in anxiety, fear, and stress) got smaller.
The meditators in Lazar’s study showed better emotional regulation, more empathy, less fear, and an increased ability to stay focused in difficult situations. These findings suggest that intentionally observing a few quiet moments each day can improve one’s wellbeing, whether those few moments are spent focusing on God or simply observing one’s own body and environment in a state of mindfulness—which can be an utterly secular endeavor.
But are we really to think that prayer and meditation will help stop gun violence in the United States, even if many Americans aren’t sure there is a God who answers prayer?
Actually, yes—especially in the initial throes of a tragedy. Since prayer aids in clear, calm, and empathetic thinking, if we are going to respond well to complicated issues such as gun control, prayer may be more helpful in leading us toward better policy solutions than would an urgent, fretful, ill-considered response.
The same applies to our elected officials: If we want them to use their power to change gun laws (or tackle any other incredibly complex issue of the day), then we should want them to be engaging with “thoughts and prayers”—although in order to have a positive effect, this does need to be a sincere and regular activity, not just an ad-hoc performance on Twitter. Again, the positive effect on mental and emotional health is there even if they don’t believe that human prayer can change God.
For those who do believe, it’s even easier to make the case for prayer.
Most Americans— nearly three in four —believe that prayer is a direct line to a God who cares about the world and is intimately involved in the lives of all people. In the Judeo-Christian tradition, this God is not the removed watchmaker, who set the natural laws in place and let things run their course, passively looking on as innocents are killed in mass shootings. This God “bends down to listen” and “inclines His ears to hear” the utterances of every person who prays, to quote the psalmist of the Bible. This God is radically interventionist, and can move nations’ leaders to pursue righteousness and justice on behalf of said innocents.
Great social change, including the abolitionist and civil rights movements of the past two centuries, found a lifeline in a God who could break the slaves’ chains, bring slaveholders to account, change the hearts and minds of Southern business-owners and politicians, and daily sustain those leaders who put their lives on the line for freedom for the oppressed. Of course, those leaders did not only pray: They also marched in the streets, staged sit-ins, and met with legislators to bring about freedom, many of them sacrificing their lives in the process. But prayer for them wasn’t a means to an end, a ritualistic comfort in the midst of more important work. It was an end in itself, an active wrestling and pleading with the God of the universe to bring justice and peace to the nation and its inhabitants. In other words, prayer was action.
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I find the possibility that prayer can affect even those who don't believe in God to be fascinating.
There was a book written years ago (which I just now see is still available) titled "Prayer Can Change Your Life" which had as a premise that a group of psychologically troubled people benefited from saying the Our Father (or other prayers) even if they were not believers.
I am not sure I believe the claim that prayer has psychologically benefited people, even if they dont believe in God, but I do find it interesting.
Prayer Can Change Your Life
Prayer is an action one takes to make themselves feel like they're doing something (or for emotional security), when they're really doing nothing. There is nothing to suggest prayer provides any tangible effect outside of the prayor.
Prayer allows the person to feel like they are doing something with very minimal effort on their part. They are just asking someone else to do the job.
The fact that prayer is illogical if you belive that your god has a divine plan is a given.
Minimal effort? More like no effort. And what's the point? God already decided or knows what's going to happen. Is prayer supposed to change his mind or alter the outcome?
From their perspective, they made an effort, even if it was minimal and it makes them feel like they are doing something to help. Even if it is merely reinforcing their religious delusion and happy thoughts.
Looks like the researchers will also need to evaluate the failure of the prayers made by the Southern Baptists who founded their sect to promote slavery and white supremacy. Likewise the failure of the prayers made by slaves for many thousands of years before slavery was largely abolished. At best those prayers served as a pacifying force for both the slave owners and the enslaved.
Even if it is a placebo effect if it helps people it is worthwhile.
It only "helps" the one doing the praying. It's a case of mind over matter. It does absolutely nothing to affect outside events or occurrences.
Well, the article really only claims that the effect of prayer is on individuals.
If praying in a disciplined way can bring some peace to people who are in psychological distress, whether they believe in it or not, that is a worthwhile thing in itself.
Meditation can have the same effect. But no one really meditates thinking it will solve problems in the world.
There's no doubt it makes the prayor feel better about themselves, even when it's an imprecatory prayer with evil intent like the ones so often issued by Christian extremists like Pat Robertson.
All those prayers people said for my parents didn't save their lives
But I'll bet those who said the prayers felt like they were actually accomplishing something. Talk about the ineffectiveness of prayer.
guh!
And then when they died all that bullshit about how they were both in a better place.
If think it's so much better, why bother with medical care to prolong ones life? It seems as if we should want to die and get to that "better place."
If prayer replaces action, it is evil.
Or at the very least, lazy.
Many who pray wouldn't do anything more in any case, so it isn't really "replacing"... as long as the person doesn't imagine that their prayer is an action of any kind...
Sounds a lot like doing nothing to begin with.
Yup.
There seems to be nothing to debate here. I don't think anyone disputes that prayer can have a positive effect on the person praying.
As Jesus indicated through use of the activity of prayer; it is an appeal to God or something outside of oneself. Now then, do people make appeals to other people? Yes, this is better defined as supplication.
It's a useless gesture. Appeal to god? That implies one can cause god to change his mind or the outcome of specific events or circumstances.
Pretty sad to have to denigrate someone's else's beliefs just because you have none. I pray frequently because it does make me feel better, but that is just me. I do not pray out loud where others can hear and do so only in my mind and in my heart. I do not bother anybody doing so, so I fail to see where that may bother you.
I talk to my late wife and son almost every day and it comforts me.
I'm not denigrating anyone's beliefs. I have always said people are free to believe whatever they want. But it is an emotional comfort mechanism. Belief itself is generally based on emotion. It might help the prayor in thar regard, but that's about it. I'm sorry for your loss.
Prayer has very little worth in actually solving problems. Its not others fault you are insulted by the facts.
How the. . . heaven do you know what prayer is capable or not capable of accomplishing? You've already confessed across numerous threads an unwavering denial of any spiritual Being able to enjoin humanity, so what other reason could you possibly be here for other than "put-downs"?
Scientific studies has shown prayer accomplishes nothing tangible outside of effects to the prayor, much like meditation.
It's called statistical analysis. If you pray for someone to get better and they do not get better then logically the prayer didn't work. If you pray for somone to help you and you don't get help you need then the prayer didn't work. If someone is in the hospital and they do get better how do you know that it was the prayer that helped and not the Drs and the medicine that cured them? If you refuse to understand that possibly then you have embraced a "correlation does not prove causation" logical fallacy because maybe the Dr is not a member of your religion or maybe he is a godless athiest?
Unless you want to embrace the infamous religious cop-out of "God works in mysterious ways" as a way to keep your belief alive in the face of fact that is certainly your choice. Prayer is a religious device to help people in times of great stress in the same way as meditation but there is no proof that it gets God to solve real word problems. If you believe that God has a plan for all of us then prayer cannot be logically possible because your life was planned before you were born.
As I have established already, you do not have any 'cred' to speak on the topic of prayer. This is just you hollering in the wind.
Science is about natural law. Science is testable. Since, God and faith references activities and qualities explainable by means other than natural law, logically you do not know what the heaven you are writing about here.
Just so many words, . . . and put-downs.
Many are simply interested in telling others that they are fools for believing in something they do not believe in.
Why would anyone want to believe in something that cannot be supported in any way? Theistic religion appeals to people who are more emotional than logical, but there are many of us who prefer logic instead of the happy thoughts of emotions.
I was rasied Roman Catholic and forced to attend Sunday mass and CCD for 12+ years so I have more than a passing knowledge of Christian prayer.
Logic trumps religious belief 100% of the time because it is based on empirical logic and testable fact. Science has beliefs known as a hypothesis, but even they have some support, even if they cannot be conclusively proven with current knowledge or technology.
Religion may be able to convince some people that the Earth is 6000 years old but science and logic prove otherwise to everyone but the most fanatical believers.
People of faith also believe in a solid education. Moreover, believers dogmatically state God is the creator of this universe-world and all that is within it — including the sciences . Therefore, any conflicts between the sciences and world religion are something people foist upon them both because of private agendas . These people have to work through their issues on their own! Because, one thing is definitely clear: Either God created all that the believer experiences, loves, and hold dear—or God does not exist at all!
Prayer is a humble petition. It is not any demand or submission of a paid-for ticket for which must be 'honored' or else . The ultimate decision resides with God who knows all. A true believer has much more sense (and understanding) of his or her role in the larger scheme than to come like an ignorant fool before the Creator prattling off so-called, " fulfillment demands." For example:
2 Samuel 12.
15 Then Nathan went to his house.
David’s Child Dies
And the Lord afflicted the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and he became sick.
16 David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David l fasted and went in m and lay all night on the ground.
17 And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground, but he would not, nor did he eat food with them.
18 On the seventh day the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, “Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he did not listen to us. How then can we say to him the child is dead? He may do himself some harm.”
19 But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David understood that the child was dead. And David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” They said, “He is dead.” 20 Then David arose from the earth n and washed and anointed himself and changed his clothes. And he went into the house of the Lord o and worshiped. He then went to his own house. And when he asked, they set food before him, and he ate.
21 Then his servants said to him, “What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.”
22 He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, p ‘Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live? ’
23 But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, q but he will not return to me.”
In other words, faith activities is the same as magic. That's like saying Harry Potter spells are real and cave real effects. Of course, once the supernatural crosses over to the natural realm to exert an effect, it therefore becomes part of the natural world and should logically be observable and testable to science. But since that is clearly not the case, the supernatural is nothing more than fantasy based on emotionally driven beliefs, rather than actual empirical evidence.
What difference does it make to you whether someone else believes it some and why? It is not your place to judge others in that manner. You don't believe? That's fine. Now go on your way and don't bother those who do.
Some of these folks are 'militant' activists. Other's like what can I can only consider as a 'cheap' thrill. Lastly, another portion of these non-believers are actually offended by the activities of men and women who hurt them severely with their politics and policies which oppress or leave these people fewer choices than they otherwise have by birthright or achievements.
E.A and Just to add to that hypocrisy, see how many Claim to be " Scientific " and also Science Fiction aficionados!
How many times in the past have we heard those voicing " That is Impossible " and " that is Pure Stupidity " and " we All Know better " and then?
I can take part in this discussion unless what you and other believers want is a group endorsement of religious apologetics.
You have a "passing" knowledge of what? Prayer not accomplishing anything worthwhile in your life? Anything?! Outcomes matter.
So, for now anyway, you are an atheist. How do you scientifically intend to prove prayer absolutely does not work for anybody else? After all, there are a myriad of people living and dead who have written about answered prayers.
Is it an 'anger issue' of yours; that, other people's spiritual 'grass is greener' than your dry, protracted, overuse of logic jargon?
Since when did the understanding of logic and empirical science become militant activism? It sounds like someone is triggered and needs a safe place from the 21st century, like a chapel or the Vatican.
Prayer has no positive outcomes except for making the person praying feel better about themselves in the same way that meditation does. Prayer does not solve problems.
Your bias is showing. That's okay, because you are entitled to hold your own mind. Logic is not in competition with religion or God—some naturalists are. In addition, if you only use logic in your life, how could you ever manage the areas of your life where love, desire, faith, nuance, et ceteras are a must? Easy enough: You selectively use your emotions—even while you condemn others for doing similarly.
Now, you are simply 'reaching.' You have a million of those little platitudes, and I am familiar with nearly all of them.
E.A BINGO!!
Science NEVER, repeat Never, claims to know the unknown!!
But, as we see more often then need be!!!!!! ….
Prayer is a humble petition. It is not any demand or submission of a paid-for ticket for which must be 'honored' or else. The ultimate decision resides with God who knows all. A true believer has much more sense (and understanding) of his or her role in the larger scheme than to come like an ignorant fool before the Creator prattling off so-called, " fulfillment demands."
Science can not 'bottle' spiritual power. What comes after? 'Bottled' God?
We all have people we love die (and become a statistic in the process). Recorded history is replete with people who pray and die; who pray and suffer, who pray and whatever. In addition, history is pervasive with folks who were delivered from death's door, lives of crime, slavery, debauchery, drugs, alcohol, mental distresses, mental diseases, et ceteras, and they attribute individual successes in their life and experiences to prayer as a means to connect with their inner Spirit.
You can keep 'testing' for God. Though, is it illogical for a philosophical naturalist to attempt to test for what you would labe the, "supernatural"?
E.A In Many Cultures, " Prayer " is ones communication with " nature " and giving thanks!
And in as many Cultures, it is a " unifying action for the tribe to a course "
It is a Thank you or a Wish for a common Good, and many studies have shown and WILL show the " Power in that Unified activity! "
Why would what others believe bother you so much?
We're having a discussion. I like logic.
okay.
I like logic too. Logic is a good thing. So is rational thinking.
Sloppy emotional thinking drives me crazy. I want to know that I can trust my ideas and conclusions.
Me too. I'll take a dose of logic over emotion anyday.
Having seen combat, I cannot tell you the number of foxhole athiests I have come across. Especially among those that had seen no combat previously. They strutted around like billy bad asses saying they did not believe in God and did not need him until the fecal matter hit the oscilating rotor in a heavy firefight. Then they were cowering in their foxholes crying for momma and God to let them live! If it was not so pathetic, it really would have been funny. But sadly other people died because of them!
E.A Very well stated, as I have often said " it takes a Lot to make a Village, a Town, and a Country, and Common " Faith/prayer " is one of those many in ingredients "
And to have the " Duet " of we " know it all 90% Sarcasm and 10 % Idiocy " is an excellent example of why " Society is Crumpling " and many thanks for your thoughts!
"Militant activists"
I commend you on your choice of words. I had some choice words in mind, too, but those weren't even close!
Kudos to you!
That just demonstrates belief/faith is based on emotion and not on rationality.
One could also look at it as a case of sheer logic not being enough.
If they didn't believe in God before, what about the situation would make them change their minds when their decision was based on logic?
There is nothing logical about changing their mind. The situation was one eliciting fear and panic. That was the basis of changing one's mind. Just an emotional reaction, not a logical one.
If they believed that there is no God, then it is illogical to say they changed their minds because of stress.
And haven't some been saying that atheists are logical because they don't have faith in something they don't
know exists?
How does one "believe" in something that doesn't exist? A lack of belief is not a belief. Changing their minds because of stress or emotional distress is just an emotional reaction, and not something logical.
That premise isn't logical--that because of stress, their logic goes out the window.
Unless you think that once the stress is over, they revert back to being atheists?
The premise is perfectly logical: their reaction is based on emotion as a means of coping with a particular situation. That's it. There is no logic behind the reaction itself. If they revert back to being atheist, then their rationality reasserted itself. If not, they succumbed to emotional appeal which overrided rational thinking.
I don't think it is logical to assume that because of stress, they went against what they knew to be logical to themselves.
If they don't believe in God solely because His existence hasn't been proven to them, then turning away from that in stressful times would be highly illogical--something atheists always claim to be.
Why on earth would the thought of God ever cross an atheist's mind unless they were being presented proof of God?
You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine. Have a good evening.
I guess you're unaware that highly stressful situations or emotional distress can make one irrational .
I offered no opinion. Just a fact.
Guess away!
Sounds logical.
You're understanding of logic seems rather lacking.
I would like to think that when someone wishes to be insulting, they at least use the word "you're" correctly.
I'd sure like to, but just can't, for obvious reasons.
That's the best you can do-point out a typo, and one due to an auto correct? And if you think I'm being insulting or that was my intent, then you would also be wrong. But you can take it however you please. It doesn't change a thing I said!
No, it sure doesn't.
Your comment stands.
And my understanding of that comment stands.
And your understanding remains flawed!
Whatever.
Wow, what a deep and profound reply. >sarc <
Recently a number of studies have been released about " How Our Brain Works " and also the interaction between " Thinking and Body Health "!!
And note that those most vehemently against " Prayer " Claim to be pro " something more to be human "!
Well...how DOES our brain work?
Electrochemical interactions between neurons.
Thanks Gordy, but I was kinda looking for the EA explanation!
Oh sorry.
Prayer no doubt makes the praying individual feel better. In that regard it is a useful coping mechanism to help deal with tragic events. But on the flip-side it is probably not so great for those who rely upon appealing to a higher power to make changes in their lives.
The most recent major study on the efficacy of prayer -the Harvard Prayer Experiment- is summarized in this convenient video: