A leading Holocaust historian just seriously compared the US to Nazi Germany
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
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Usually, comparisons between Donald Trump’s America and Nazi Germany come from cranks and internet trolls. But a new essay in the New York Review of Books pointing out “troubling similarities” between the 1930s and today is different: It’s written by Christopher Browning, one of America’s most eminent and well-respected historians of the Holocaust. In it, he warns that democracy here is under serious threat, in the way that German democracy was prior to Hitler’s rise — and really could topple altogether.
Browning, a professor emeritus at the University of North Carolina, specializes in the origins and operation of Nazi genocide. His 1992 book Ordinary Men , a close examination of how an otherwise unremarkable German police battalion evolved into an instrument of mass slaughter, is widely seen as one of the defining works on how typical Germans became complicit in Nazi atrocities.
So when Browning makes comparisons between the rise of Hitler and our current historical period, this isn’t some keyboard warrior spouting off. It is one of the most knowledgeable people on Nazism alive using his expertise to sound the alarm as to what he sees as an existential threat to American democracy.
Browning’s essay covers many topics, ranging from Trump’s “America First” foreign policy — a phrase most closely associated with a group of prewar American Nazi sympathizers — to the role of Fox News as a kind of privatized state propaganda office. But the most interesting part of his argument is the comparison between Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and Paul von Hindenburg, the German leader who ultimately handed power over to Hitler. Here’s how Browning summarizes the history:
Paul von Hindenburg, elected president of Germany in 1925, was endowed by the Weimar Constitution with various emergency powers to defend German democracy should it be in dire peril. Instead of defending it, Hindenburg became its gravedigger, using these powers first to destroy democratic norms and then to ally with the Nazis to replace parliamentary government with authoritarian rule. Hindenburg began using his emergency powers in 1930, appointing a sequence of chancellors who ruled by decree rather than through parliamentary majorities, which had become increasingly impossible to obtain as a result of the Great Depression and the hyperpolarization of German politics. Because an ever-shrinking base of support for traditional conservatism made it impossible to carry out their authoritarian revision of the constitution, Hindenburg and the old right ultimately made their deal with Hitler and installed him as chancellor. Thinking that they could ultimately control Hitler while enjoying the benefits of his popular support, the conservatives were initially gratified by the fulfillment of their agenda: intensified rearmament, the outlawing of the Communist Party, the suspension first of freedom of speech, the press, and assembly and then of parliamentary government itself, a purge of the civil service, and the abolition of independent labor unions. Needless to say, the Nazis then proceeded far beyond the goals they shared with their conservative allies, who were powerless to hinder them in any significant way.
McConnell, in Browning’s eyes, is doing something similar — taking whatever actions he can to attain power, including breaking the system for judicial nominations (cough cough, Merrick Garland) and empowering a dangerous demagogue under the delusion that he can be fully controlled:
If the US has someone whom historians will look back on as the gravedigger of American democracy, it is Mitch McConnell. He stoked the hyperpolarization of American politics to make the Obama presidency as dysfunctional and paralyzed as he possibly could. As with parliamentary gridlock in Weimar, congressional gridlock in the US has diminished respect for democratic norms, allowing McConnell to trample them even more. Nowhere is this vicious circle clearer than in the obliteration of traditional precedents concerning judicial appointments. Systematic obstruction of nominations in Obama’s first term provoked Democrats to scrap the filibuster for all but Supreme Court nominations. Then McConnell’s unprecedented blocking of the Merrick Garland nomination required him in turn to scrap the filibuster for Supreme Court nominations in order to complete the “steal” of Antonin Scalia’s seat and confirm Neil Gorsuch. The extreme politicization of the judicial nomination process is once again on display in the current Kavanaugh hearings. ... Whatever secret reservations McConnell and other traditional Republican leaders have about Trump’s character, governing style, and possible criminality, they openly rejoice in the payoff they have received from their alliance with him and his base: huge tax cuts for the wealthy, financial and environmental deregulation, the nominations of two conservative Supreme Court justices (so far) and a host of other conservative judicial appointments, and a significant reduction in government-sponsored health care (though not yet the total abolition of Obamacare they hope for). Like Hitler’s conservative allies, McConnell and the Republicans have prided themselves on the early returns on their investment in Trump.
This is the key point that people often miss when talking about Hitler’s rise. The breakdown of German democracy started well before Hitler: Hyperpolarization led Hindenburg to strip away constraints on executive power as well as conclude that his left-wing opponents were a greater threat than fascism. The result, then, was a degradation of the everyday practice of democracy, to the point where the system was vulnerable to a Hitler-style figure.
Now, as Browning points out, “Trump is not Hitler and Trumpism is not Nazism.” The biggest and most important difference is that Hitler was an open and ideological opponent of the idea of democracy, whereas neither Trump nor the GOP wants to abolish elections.
What Browning worries about, instead, is a slow and quiet breakdown of American democracy — something more much like what you see in modern failed democracies like Turkey . Browning worries that Republicans have grown comfortable enough manipulating the rules of the democratic game to their advantage, with things like voter ID laws and gerrymandering, that they might go even further even after Trump is gone:
No matter how and when the Trump presidency ends, the specter of illiberalism will continue to haunt American politics. A highly politicized judiciary will remain, in which close Supreme Court decisions will be viewed by many as of dubious legitimacy, and future judicial appointments will be fiercely contested. The racial division, cultural conflict, and political polarization Trump has encouraged and intensified will be difficult to heal. Gerrymandering, voter suppression, and uncontrolled campaign spending will continue to result in elections skewed in an unrepresentative and undemocratic direction. Growing income disparity will be extremely difficult to halt, much less reverse.
I’ve observed this kind of modern authoritarianism firsthand in Hungary. In my dispatch after visiting there, I warned of the same thing as Browning does here : The threat to the United States isn’t so much Trump alone as it is the breakdown in the practice of American democracy, and the Republican Party’s commitment to extreme tactics in pursuit of its policy goals in particular.
We are living through a period of serious threat to American democracy. And Browning’s essay, a serious piece by a serious scholar, shows that it’s not at all alarmist to say so.
Lot's of good points in this essay especially after what we've seen with the GOP trying to push a credibly accused sexual predator and manifestly unfit nominee onto the supreme court.
Lot's of good points in this essay
Yep some of which have been being pointed out for over a year to unhearing minds. I look for that to continue.
I believe unless trumps followers themselves are somehow hurt it is going to be next to impossible to stop whatever this man desires. Basically no matter WTF he says or does.
I fail to see how this makes us a better country.
The reality is that Trump has made us a better country.
IMO: The reality is that every president we've had has done both some good and some bad for the country, president trump is no exception.
Much of what president trump has begun is just that begun, time will tell as it always does what the real long term effects the presidents actions and words have had.
Personally I think not being able to take the president "At his word" Sucks.
Yeah negotiating tactics and gambets may be nice but I'd prefer facts, honesty and the truth from the most powerful human on the planet instead.
Good Luck America
You keep on telling yourself that as the Kool Aid toxicity sets in.
Trump's impact on the country is actually minimal, as is the case with most presidents. The limitations on the office ensure that no president has that power.
But we're in a time when enormous numbers of Americans make decisions solely based on their "feelings". Those people dislike Trump immensely because he has utter disregard or even casual contempt for their "feelings".
When one's emotions are in control, good things seem much better than they are and bad things seem like the end of the world. But it's fantasy, not reality. In that fantasy world, we've gone from free and happy utopia to fascist dictatorship in less than 24 months and Trump = Hitler. It's idiotic on a whole new scale, I know, but that's what happens when emotions take over.
As to the subject of this seed. The Nazis, once they attained majorities, solidified the courts and law enforcement.
As for the ensuing policies undertaken by the Nazis, the American right wing will not make those mistakes again. They have learned. Putin has installed a new and more secure way to attain, hold onto and exercise the power of the State. I suspect his ( Putin's ) blueprint will adhere to.
Kavanaugh's statement of, "What goes around comes around," should not be taken lightly. Often, when someone tells you what they are, believe them.
Nazis had a scapegoat, the Jews. And to some extent, the Communists.
Trumpers have the Left and Liberals.
Isn't the left liberals? You say the left we get the point, progressives, ANIFA, socialist, Marxist is all the left.
And Just how is President Trump a Nazi? Please do tell, not what ifs and coulda or nutter butter peanut butter. What has he done that has hurt you?
my tax cut sux
Yep just like with the conservatives there are only two kinds of humans..........
LOL
So many millions of individuals shoved into two little catagories of believe.
I'm glad I'm an individual independent ! I freely go where I want and think what I want. and vote the way I want. plus neither corrupted party gets to count me in their number to gain more power over me. But, Have fun. And BTW, good luck controlling the people hired to run the country.
Not a damn thing, But, if any president does things that start hurting us as individuals IMO: its well past time for a new president.
IMO: president trump as with all past presidents only time will really tell what their influence has been on this country.
Furthermore I have yet to see any president not have both some good and some harm left in their wake, I highly doubt president trump will be an exception.
Words and details DO matter regardless of what this president seems to think.
DING!! And we have a winner!
It doesn't seem to matter if you're an independent, or a centrist, or non-partisan, or objective, or have no skin in the game, or not even an American - no matter what you post, a conservative will blast you for being a liberal-supporter and a liberal will blast you for being a conservative-supporter.
- no matter what you post, a conservative will blast you for being a liberal-supporter and a liberal will blast you for being a conservative-supporter.
That does seem to be the case these days Buzz. It’s sad. But IMO: Not unexpected. The way the politicians and media have divided up the general public in this country for their own power and profit is sickening. Unfortunately I do not see an end to it. Thankfully for myself I’m kinda toward the end of caring too damn much. I learned long ago when you think someone is messing up you’re not likely to change it. That’s kind of the attitude I’ve taken on watching the division of America.
There isn’t much I can do to change it, I still don’t willing allow myself to engage in it any more than I have to, lead myself into doing or certainly intend to. Sometimes I slip myself and find myself TOO engaged in an issue or side. At that point I, when I recognize it I take a break.
My sanity, and well being is much too important to me to let myself get all upset over nothing I can do a damn thing about anyway. As I see it a central, neutral, independent, pragmatic analogical, organized and responsible way to approach everything is still the best method of living for me. I believe Balance is very important for a person and a nation. Unfortunately as a nation I believe we are losing that balance, But, that doesn’t mean I have to as well.
Thanks Buzz, Have a nice day evening or whatever it is where you are.
And… To each their own.
The U.S. -- equivalent to Nazi Germany?
Link : When 20,000 American Nazis Descended Upon New York City
I wonder if their leadership ridiculed sexual assault victims too or was that beneath even the Nazis?
And did the rally attendees assault black protesters or were blacks simply not allowed in?
Based on how Hitler handled loses to Jessie Owens during the 1936 Olympics, blacks were most likely not allowed in.
As for sexual assault against women, given the high numbers of teenage girls who became pregnant at the nazi youth camps, questions easily surface.
Then there are stories of other boys being victims when no girls were available.
No.
Nazi leadership did not ridicule sexual assault victims. In fact the nazi version of the girl scouts, The League of German Girls or Band of German Maidens actually touted that being a true germanic female meant the duty to be as healthy as can be and as sexually free as one could be. The purpose was to give birth to and raise healthy, racially pure german boys. Ostensibly to repeat the process over and over.....
I didn't even know about this part of the nazification of Germany until my Mother in Law brought it up in a conversation. She was born in Germany in 1924, and was raised up under the Nazi regime. And as soon as she became capable she became a member of this bizarre girls organization. Membership was compulsory.
They were being trained in how to be a good wife and produce strong german sons... And according to her, the education they were given was quite specific. Sex for the fatherland was not only required, it was your duty as both a full blooded german and a good citizen. Also, that they shouldn't be ashamed for being sexual.
Sounds more like the free sex movement than the republican party...
And we know to which party the free sex movement belongs to today....
I don't know this for a fact, but my quess would be that members of any "inferior races" would not be allowed in-- this of course would include blacks, Jews, Slavs...and a lot of other "impure races".
However one jewish guy did manage to sneak-- bnd he foolishly approached the speakers platform. He was beaten by guards.
Sounds like my marriage orientation with my first bride and a Catholic priest in the late 60's.
I had never seen that woman so pissed off; not even during the divorce a decade later.
It should have been an omen....
As to women I don't know.
We don't hear much about Nazi anti-black racism in Germany at that time. But that's for a reason-- at that time there almost no blacks in Germany (possibly not even 1?). However, I've seen a lot of Nazi propaganda-- and there is a fair amount of propaganda denigrating blacks as well.
I think people who rigidly adhere to any belief system can be quite obnoxious-- and probably most of them are borderline mentally ill as well. (By belief systems I mean religion and that includes Evangelical Atheists.-Politics-- and in some cases even Science).
Seems like misogyny, rape and anti-abortion laws go hand in hand with authoritarianism. In fact Germany is currently trying to get rid of a Nazi-era law which prohibited doctors from disseminating information about abortion. And in the latter part of the Nazi era abortion carried the death penalty for "Aryan" women.
Didn't Trump also say that any women who get abortions should be punished? Seems like another rather direct parallel between these authoritarian regimes.
Actually the free love and liberalization era of Germany was primarily from when it first became a country through the end of the Weimar Republic, but there's no doubt that the Nazis encouraged white folks to have kids. That's why they passed several very harsh anti-abortion laws between 1933-1943 (at least where white folks were concerned). Non-whites were encouraged to get abortions as frequently as possible in order to eliminate those who weren't "very fine people."
So just like in the US today, 1930s Germany followed a progressive era with a reactionary right wing one.
WE are never going to agree on this but I will try to respond...
Germany followed a rather benign conservative era (with a very weak government) with a radical socialist one.
We are following a radical progressive liberal era with a rather conservative one.....
And I believe we are coming out better for it, since we are no longer on the path to destruction...
The radical socialist path germany chose in the 30's, well we all see where it led them.... complete and utter destruction.
Well you make an interesting point, a huge stretch true, (america has never been a nationalistic nation with a nationalist government) Although I would agree that there are groups and personages that would like it to be on both sides.
But I would have to disagree with transposing conservative with nationalist, unless you agree that it works just as well transposing Democrat with the same...
The only thing that leads to complete destruction is hate, and the fear that breeds hate...
So just like in the US today, 1930s Germany followed a progressive era with a reactionary right wing one.
I have heard some historians put forth what is sometimes called "the Pendulum Theory of History". This states then when there's a moderately right wing or left wing government, over time it gets more and more extreme. Finally it gets so extreme that the people rebel-- and put in a new government on the opposite side of the political spectrum.
Then, of course the new government eventually becomes mores extreme-- the people eventually rebel..and the cycle repeats itself.
(I do not know enough world history to know if this theory is correct-- but it seems there does seem to be many examples of this.. and not just in the U.S.)
"You're required to have sex for the fatherland" is hardly a "free sex movement". It's pretty much the opposite.
Taken as written yes very true. Taken as My Mother-in-Law explained it, not so much. AS she explained it sex was not something to be ostracized about it was a natural function of people and as such had the advantage of building the aryan race...
It wasn't like you were expected to just go out and boink every male you saw until you got preggers... it was more like you were expected to be open to the advances of males, even if you did not necessarily want such...... Don't get me wrong, rape was not tolerated at all, but submitting to sex cause you allowed a male too much latitude was completely tolerated, in fact expected. Young ladies did not party alone with young men until they became adults.
Of course this is one woman's perspective who was part of it, I give it a lot of weight. Especially the part about living in Soviet occupied Germany as a young female adult.
She is very thankful she got the chance to escape before they closed the borders.
Yeah, still not buying the "free sex movement" thing. And "do it even if you don't want to" and "rape was not tolerated at all" - well, those don't really add up, either. Nice try, though. That's still government in your bedroom. And we know which party wants government in our bedrooms today...
Yes-- indeed he did.
He was being interviewed by Chris Matthews (whom BTW, is Catholic). Matthews asked Trump about his position on abortion-- and specifically, should a woman who has an abortion be punished?
A Yes or No question . . .
As he often does, Trump danced around the question-- tried to mislead matthews and those watching. He said a lot but of course refused to answer the question.
Matthews, however, is a seasoned reporter-- and once he senses that someone he's interviewing refuses to answer a question-- Matthews latches on like a bulldog until he gets a straight answer!
I realize that it may be "politically incorrect" to post videos or links to videos on NT-- after all so many people here are so sure that they know it all-- so they won't even watch a relevant video! (What's the point in watching a video-- when you know it all anyway?)
However, this one is worthwhile-- both to actually see how Trunks wiggles around and attempts to avoid giving a straight answer-- andalso how he finally, actually does!
(And of course Matthew's excellent interview techniques
)
Donald Trump's evasive stance on whether or not women should be punished for having an abortion
Not selling anything, so there is nothing to buy. and no, some of it doesn't make sense to me either. It is what she said was going on. She is still alive we had to place her in a home about five years ago in her '90's now. She was diagnosed two years ago with Alzheimer's so in that respect she can forget which is a blessing I suppose.
There are differing viewpoints I suppose, and no I'm not one that wants to be in anyone's bedroom but my own so the political reference to liberal democrat feminist dogma was unnecessary.
I'm no longer a republican haven't been for over 30 years. Too crazy for me. I only became one cause the democrats became too crazy for me over 40 years ago.
But since you interject such references into what I thought was a decent conversation i'll say goodbye and allow you your beliefs as erroneous as I think they are.
Thank you for the good conversation as far as it went...
But
I interjected such references, hmmm? Those references hadn't already been made?
I'm sorry to hear of your MIL's illness.
Encouraging a lack of prudishness is not the same as encouraging "free sex". It's just encouraging a lack of prudishness. This would have been sex at the direction of the state, which is most decidedly not free. And it was intended to lead to reproduction in order to make new Nazis, with abortion illegal. This was hardly in support of a view of women as valuable members of society, other than as broodmares. It's not really an indication that rape was frowned upon, when women were told they didn't have the right to say "no".
The Nazis were pretty liberal in sterilizing "non-contributing" members of socitey, too
That's quite the dodge ball game....duck, dip, dive, deflect, and dodge
Key word....aryan
The whole thing was a ridiculous exchange of 'what ifs' … abortion legality is a loaded question - SHOULD abortion, if it becomes illegal (which is not going to happen in my life time) be penalized under the law …?
Even if I say no, someone will question my response … 'we' all know that Trump is far from conservative, and is speaking in terms he does not understand .. as he is pro - choice always has been always will be.. he danced around for that very reason...
Funny how Obama insults Trump at a correspondents dinner and he [Trump] becomes a conservative that for some fuck'd up reason suddenly was a valued endorser of conservative presidential candidates? --- mind blowing, unreal, unf'ing believable!!!..……. in my opinion .. 2012 opened the gates!
MAGA
Make Authoritarianism Great Again?
Morons Are Governing Again ?
Jealous?
When did they ever stop? Of course they are governing over moronic voters that keep voting them in; so we have exactly the government we deserve. We have been fleeced by every modern president, and keep going back to the two party trough for more.
The left is just pissed it isn't their moron in charge fleecing us.
Agreed
Of what? I golf quite a bit but i have time to do so. Trump is a hypocrite, deal with it.
Hey that is what free speech is all about...
And yes, the German-American Bund was directly connected to the German Nazi's but also connected directly to Adolph.....
But then so was Henry Ford.....
Yup:
German diplomats award Henry Ford, center, with their nation's highest decoration
for foreigners, the Grand Cross of the German Eagle, in July 1938. (AP Photo)
And he didn't get it for building cars!
There were many Americans that supported the Nazis, at least in the beginning. Charles Lindberg comes to mind.
The nazis had many fans here in America:
He got it for two things, his support for Nazi policies, (including their policies towards the jews) and for creating the Opel subsidiary of Ford in Germany.
Opel built thousands and thousands of trucks for the German Army before and during the war..... (which were Ford designs, it was also why Ford didn't build trucks for the American army)
Ford was an Internationalist..... One of those global elites.....
Lindberg never belonged to the bund, and was never directly connected to the Nazi's. But he was an American Firster and spoke at length against America's mobilization in '39-'40 and about staying out of the war....
Never said Lindberg belonged to 'the bund.' But he did travel to Germany, observed the Luftwaffe and said it was invincible. He also praised German might and gave them praise for their advancements and rebuilding under the Nazi government.
And----he was "A Firster."
All of that is very very true, in fact he was also allowed to test fly an Me-109. not an experimental version either an actual combat capable aircraft. It was his oral report on it's capabilities that caused the USAAC to revise it's standards and requirements for fighter aircraft.
He was impressed with their technological capabilities....
It would seem to be a logical assumption that those Americans that were anti-Nazi would demonstrate for the U.S. to enter the war ...on the side of the Allies. And that those who were pro-nazi would demonstrate for the U.S. to enter the war on the side of the Axis.
But that was usually not the case. While anti-Nazis pushed for the U.S. to enter on the side of the Allies, pro-Nazi Americans didn't publically advocate the U.S. enter the war on the Axis side. They realized that that wouldn't sell. So instead they demonstrated for the U.S. to stay out entirely. In fact they started some "Peace organizations"--urging the U.S. stay out.
BTW the U.S. didn't decide to enter the war to fight Facism. Most Americans were extremely isolationist & didn't want to enter the war at all.. The only reason we finally entered was that we were attacked! (Pearl Harbour).
Long ago-- I was still in Elementary School!-- I read an excellent book about pro-nazi attempts at subversion in the U.S.-- and their agitating to keep the U.S. out of the was (so we wouldn't fight nazi germany/Imperial Japan). I was wondering if it was still in print or still available-- so I checked-- its still available.
(Note: it says "are now plotting to destroy us"-- that "Now" refers to the date it was published-- 1943!).
On Amazon.com:
Top customer reviews
Recommend reading for anyone interested in Nazis and other fringe groups
In this country. Thug messages remain the same. Nazi symbols and white nationalism
on leaflets rather than the internet.
Just an FWIW, on an individual basis, German nazis who visited here for rallies and such, would often track down faighting ae men of German descent and encourage (aka intimidate) these men to go "back home and fight for the Fatherland'.
My Grandfather took on a German name after escaping Russia during Stalin's revolution, which resulted in him getting a couple visits from these German Nazis a couple times. They made the mistake of trying the intimidation tactic once. Once.
We declared War on Japan, we did not declare war on Germany until AFTER Germany declared war on us in retaliation for our declaration against Japan. Not that we weren't already in a shooting war with Germany, long before the Japanese attack, it just wasn't official.... We would have eventually entered the war against Germany, although probably not until '42 at least, probably '43.
Our military was woefully unprepared for war...
There were a LOT of nazi's and sympathizers in the America First movement, a number of them became spies for Germany one of them had sent back pictures back of this...
Which was shown to Adolph Hitler and he went into a rage proclaiming that the spy was being duped into unbelievable crap. Nobody could build locomotives that big....
That is UP 4012 built by ALCO in '40 and used by UP to haul coal and raw materials in utah and wyoming mountains...
Hitler didn't have a clue what he was facing...
Yes some of the American Firsters were not good honest hard working americans...
No. Lenin's Revolution. I do that from time to time...stupid...
Most of them were isolationist Republicans like Lindberg and Prescott Bush although I doubt that the GOP of that era really had much in common with today's GOP other than white supremacy, antisemitism and a hatred of the New Deal.
And Union Pacific is restoring a Big Boy and it will run next year
Powerful train. Sixteen drive wheels.
Not sure, but I think I saw that train on display at The Illinois Rail Museum. It is awesome.
And for some, the money was a factor. So much for sacrifice and patriotism, right?
There were a few more prominent people involved as spokespersons and supporters.
From completely across the political spectrum....
The America First Committee had its share of prominent businessmen as well as the sympathies of political figures including Democratic Senators Burton K. Wheeler of Montana and David I. Walsh of Massachusetts, Republican Senator Gerald P. Nye of North Dakota, with its most prominent spokesman being aviator Charles A. Lindbergh . Other celebrities supporting America First were actress Lillian Gish and architect Frank Lloyd Wright . ( from wiki )
Seems to me you cannot pin The America Firsters entirely on the Republicans.
I could say that since their national headquarters was in Chicago, and their largest membership groups were in Illinois and New York, they were created by the Democrat machines in those locations. I would be just as wrong as you.....
It was an across the political board organization. Yes there were some Nazi supporters involved, but they went their own way when the organization was officially disbanded three days after Pearl Harbor. Right after Hitler declared war on us.
This is the key point that people often miss when talking about Hitler’s rise. The breakdown of German democracy started well before Hitler: Hyperpolarization led Hindenburg to strip away constraints on executive power as well as conclude that his left-wing opponents were a greater threat than fascism. The result, then, was a degradation of the everyday practice of democracy, to the point where the system was vulnerable to a Hitler-style figure.
Some good points-- and very well stated. It wasn't as if Nazis suddenly appeared and took over in a sudden coup. The first thing that happened was an erosion of democracy-- over time. That created conditions for a totalitarian government to arise-- be it a totalitarian government of the left, of the right, or a theocracy.
Yes Yes and YES !
United we stand, devided we fall
Divide and conquer !
A divided America....
Whats really next ? We the People must insist the politicians we hire stop this infighting and start cooperating again, or they are done.
LOL
Yeah like that's gonna happen.
Sad !
We are doing it to ourselves......
"A house divided upon itself--and upon that foundation do our enemies build their hopes of subduing us." Abigail Adams.
All of these years later and Putin's Russian Federation is relevant.
Well that was the Soviets chosen method of destroying our freedoms....
They called it "Democracy's one true weakness"
The Soviets are long gone. The "new regime" is smarter, richer and more successful.
Also, let's not forget-- Putin also had a lot of power when the USSR still existed-- he was the head of the KGB! (Which says a lot about the sort of person he was-- the KGB were not nice people!)
Same thing in the Japanese empire at about the same time.
The Japanese empire was never a totalitarian state, at least not to the Japanese, and the government was separate from the emperor.
And Nazis were not bad people-- at least to the Germans.
Nazis were brutal to the Germans. Any German who resisted the Nazis was bullied or killed.
Then there was the Battle for Castle Itter when the Wehrmacht fought along side US forces against the SS. A little turn around is fair play.
The Nazi's were brutal to anyone that got in their way, Especially Germans...
Well yes. In Nazi Germany there were Germans and--------------Germans.
I am beginning to sense that attitude here in America, at least to a troubling degree.
It's like climate change. It doesn't matter that life goes on as normal. Armageddon is coming because we say so, so be afraid. Be verrryyy afraid. And then let us take care of "protecting" you.
Looking at it realistically it’s the people we hire that actually have power over us at this point in America. The worst part is WE actually don’t hire them, the companies and rich people do with the money they need to get the job (elected) to begin with.
I’ve wondered for some time now WTF our founding fathers would think of how the system has evolved. ….. I’ll bet they’d drop dead.
They wouldn't drop dead, they would have another revolution....
Usually, comparisons between Donald Trump’s America and Nazi Germany come from cranks and internet trolls
There’s a reason for that. Because only internet cranks, idiots and delusional conspiracy theorists believe such nonsense.
The left wing in this country is not rational. It’s consists of pure emotion coupled with ignorance and a compulsive need for instant gratification. They so are so hyper emotional , that losing on a vote or election signals some sort of apocalyptic end times. They can’t accept losing, so therefore it must be a conspiracy or sign that the country’s demise is imminent. Once you realize a large portion of the left simply act like spoiled 4 year olds who can't believe Mommy didn't get them the toy they have to have, everything makes much more sense.
The idea that we are on the verge of a Naziesqe downfall is pure, mainlined idiocy. Kavanaugh will br confirmed by a bipartisan majority after a long, hard battle.The system was followed! That’s how republics work!
If there is a danger to the Republic, it’s much more likely to come from the left wing mob, who are willing to throw away our cherished concepts of due process and our Constitution in pursuit of their twisted perversion of justice based on identity politics rather than due process. It's their refusal to accept losing and willingness to destroy institutions in pursuit of their agenda that is the problem our leaders need to address.
To watch the left wing at work this week is to see the mentality that led to the Salem Witch trials. They are a hate filled, irrational mob untethered to reason or reality. They’ve simply invented their own reality, where mere accusations of wrong doing (no matter how inconsistent or refuted by independent testimony) must be accepted as gospel truth.
As long as our country follows the Constitution and resists the temptation of mob justice and acting like spoiled four year olds, there is no real danger. And what’s more judges like Kavanaugh, who believe in due process and the Constitution, are exactly the type of people who safeguard our country.
It is both amazing and disheartening to watch "conservatives" and libertarians try and defend the Trump regime.
The fact that a holocaust historian can even find any comparisons between now and then to make should worry everyone, but the right and the anarchist libertarians comfort themselves in the thought that the Trump regime is not an EXACT duplication of Nazi Germany. Whoopee !
Trump is obviously the worst and most authoritarian president we have ever seen in the US. He actually wants to dictate what Americans should think. Ever watch him answer reporters questions? He repeatedly and constantly cuts the reporters off and replies only according to the way HE wants to frame the question. He wants everyone to bow down to his wishes. Of course what else should we expect from a malignant narcissist. McConnell is just a craven right wing ideologue who sold his soul to his corporate masters.
The United States of America is at a low point right now, and will be so until trumpism is gone.
Nah, but it is heartening to see that the system is thwarting an attempt to game the system. It didn’t work in 2016 and it’s not working in 2018. More to follow.
I predict his years midterms will be a historic net loss for the minority party. Largely because of the type of behavior on display lately by many on topics like this nomination
Time will tell but it would be best to buckle up buttercups. It’s going to be a VERY bumpy ride for agents on the left.
This quote, in a nutshell is what you - and everyone making nazi comparisons - seeks. You want Trump's supporters to stop supporting him and you want to use the politics of fear to make more people oppose him.
You could literally take any leader - from national to local - and make some kind of nazi comparison. You're not engaging in historical analysis. You're in engaging in simple politics and propaganda. People have been comparing political leaders to Hitler since . . . well, since Hitler.
Can anyone explain why the 'world' is so desperate to have another Hitler - it is quite obviously being fantasized about, when the top expert of all the US experts on Nazis thinks McConnell is a parallel to Nazi Germany's Hitler...
Not too long ago, it was Putin that was the next Hitler … for his 'creeping' annexations of part of Georgia, then Crimea - remember how he needed to be stopped in order to prevent the Russian 'creep' of land grabs?
Make up your minds .. if one really needs a Hitler in the world today - look no farther than Turkey and their illustrious leader Erdogan, Turkey is even a NATO member.....
I dont know about an explanation but here are my observations and thoughts.
From what I’ve observed many different reasons are used by many different agendas that either actually fear Nazism or want to use fear and disgust to manipulate others.
For myself I associate Hitler with dictatorship. When I look at what I know about how a dictatorship came about elsewhere and I see those same types of things happening again, it does catch my attention.
What is it you think you see? Nothing has changed. We still have elections. We still have courts who overturn things the supposed "dictator" wants to do. We still have a congress that checks power and spending. Nobody is being rounded up and thrown in prison for no reason. Naturally, the president is going to have some things go his way, but Americans are still living as free people.
I had and have seen little things not only from president trump but also from president Obama.
Both in my opinion pushed for and probably received more power in ways the forefathers did not intend.
Getting into details of what I think shows that becomes too politically charged and I din t feel like the fight, If interested people need to do their own evaluation of what They observe. But thanks for asking.
Do you feel this is happening now in the US?
I see that China now has a 'permanent' president .. Turkey, if Erdogan is reelected in 2019 will have an 'official' dictatorship (waiting for the Killing field in Turkey, and a Syrian land grab coming soon - Erdogan even things Turkey should have control over Mosul ..
I do not see a dictatorship coming to America, but I see political agendas trying to control free speech, among other things - not recognizing the control they are advocating for, in my opinion... Hitler is dead .. and is not coming back - yet those that squawk the most are the ones advocating for control of the 'people' ...
I do not see a dictatorship coming to America, but I see political agendas trying to control free speech, among other things
When so many American people actually have as their mandate and for their choice of a president as “One man to tear down the existing government and rebuild one in his own making and of his own desire”. Yep, That certainly gives me reason to pause and think WTF !
When it becomes a reality … I kinda shutter to think what actually may come next.
In many ways this reminds me of the Pied Piper story where the whole town put their faith in one man to solve the rat problem after he did and then did not receive the compensation he thought he deserved he turned on the town and stole their children for ransom.
I have never heard / read this statement before now .. I have heard drain the swamp, the supporting of smaller government .. but tearing down the existing government? allowing one to rebuild / make his own government? I have NO clue where that comes from, or even who it comes from, I have no recall of anyone stating the Constitution needs to be eliminated so ONE MAN can become the all knowing and controlling (well except in Turkey where the Constitution was rewritten to give Erdogan more power..... )
…. can you supply me a source, I am finding nothing - but as always, I may not be asking the correct question in order to find said statement....
Oh I think this is certainly true. It's been going on since at least Teddy Roosevelt, and more obviously since FDR. Part of me despairs that we have come so far from the framers' vision, but I also have to concede that the world is a different place and perhaps some changes needed to be made. None of that quite makes me think about Hitler, though.
I'm not surprised NO conservative news outlet would report anything that said it like I do.
I did find this article that kind of uses the same wording I do to a degree it does point out some of what I am talking about as well.
What Donald Trump Will Do With His Mandate
Donald Trump delivers his acceptance speech as Vice president-elect Mike Pence looks on, on Nov. 9, 2016 in New York City.
By JEFF NESBIT
November 9, 2016
It’s Donald Trump’s Republican Party now . The nation’s capital is now a one-party town, and Trump owns it all. What does Trump intend to do with that mandate?
Tens of millions of voters who were clearly angry with Washington showed up at the polls to vote for Trump—even though GOP elites and the media told them their vote likely wouldn’t matter. They showed up largely without being organized, and they voted for Trump’s vision of how the Republican Party should “drain the swamp” and run the nation’s capital.
So … now what?
The truth is that President-elect Trump was handed a considerable mandate from a vast swath of America on Tuesday. They clearly want real change in the national government. In the end, a great many people voted explicitly for the sort of change that Trump vowed to bring to Washington.
Trump has promised swift, immediate changes in immigration, health reform, national security, trade and industrial regulation policies. He now has a free hand to propose sweeping initiatives in all of those areas, and there is very little that elected GOP leaders can do to shape or control them at the outset.
Trump won largely without the help of the institutional GOP party apparatus. Trump showed that there is a huge swath of America—which was the most decisive group of voters in nearly every battleground state contest that he won on Tuesday—that feels left out, abandoned, not part of the club in national politics and economic policy. He showed that his movement is, in fact, real and that it now controls the Republican Party. Elected leaders in Congress, at least in the short term, have no choice but to be mindful of that stark reality.
The fact that the GOP is now essentially in charge means that every one of Trump’s big initiatives—whatever they might be—will be heard and acted on in some capacity in the next two years.
American voters gave Trump the keys to our national government on Tuesday, and a blank canvas on which to paint. Establishment GOP leaders weren’t prepared for it, and many openly and privately hoped it would not come to pass. But it has arrived. Now, whether they like it or not, they will need to pay close attention to the leader of a movement that they hardly knew even existed until Tuesday.
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Personally I thought 537 people making the decisions of running the country was a much better idea.
435 representatives
100 senators
1 president and 1 VP
But, to each their own !
Thanks 321 .. yet that is a opinion piece, and an interpretation of a supposed mandate ..
P.s.... I think you are aware that I do not rely on one source, and I am a wee bit insulted by this line:
You found something/an opinion to support your claim … I respect your opinion .. yet we just have to disagree on this, the sky is not falling where I live
I think you are aware that I do not rely on one source, and I am a wee bit insulted by this line:
Unfortunately (mainly for me) I don't pay a great deal of attention to remembering what each of us on here is, has, or what their personal history is. Sometimes I dont even look at who it is I'm responding to.
I try to treat everyone the same and with this being "stage names" and no faces it Blends together for me somewhat. Hell even in person I can't remember names or peoples personal details I never have. That's MY flaw. Sorry.
AS far a s being insulted I dont blame you, it didn't ""feel " right when I wrote it, I went in to change it and was already too late,
I Should have put it like this. "I haven't seen Any news outlet word it like I do"
Again, Sorry.
Thank you.
As far as the "mandate" Yes I have definitely heard many people call it that, I have called it that on here a few times and had some obvious conservatives here actually agree that that was and is the trump mandate. HA isn't here anymore so I'll drop his name. He was one, someone else here also very recently said to me saying "That's why trump was hired !"
I told them both yeah I know that's a problem ...
...................................................................
Anyway , you are correct, at this time the sky isn't falling, things are getting better !
It needs to, it HAS to, or the power will not keep flowing to the top.
I know how damn partisan that sounds ! But it is also the truth. IF a person or group has control and wants more control, until they have enough control IT HAS TO get better.
Personally I do believe president trump has good intentions, I do not however agree with much of anything in his ways and means of accomplishing it.
He said himself, "Words to me dont mean much, it's deeds that matter." Every second trump seems to be in "Negotiating Mode" He seems to say whatever he wants to get whatever he wants. IMO: That is no way to govern millions of people and the country, More "hats" are needed to be worn than that for sure.
I'm not going to bore ya going on But, I'll end by saying I too get my news from many sources an I sure wish we would have had two better choices the last election.
But it is what it is.
Good Luck America ! And good luck controlling our employees that we put in charge of it.
My hope is that the GOP dies with him, or at least the taint and stench of Trump never leaves the GOP.
....for himself anyway. It's clear that he doesn't care that his policies harm blacks, Muslims, immigrants, women, Jews, LGBT folks, and anyone who isn't a millionaire. And he certainly doesn't give a crap about the people and groups whom he demonizes for political advantage, like rape victims and the disabled.
That Americans and american politicians can stop all this downward infighting.
.
.
I Love the words "Can't we all just get along !" That was so simple, honest, hopeful and innocent. Unfortunately we can not and to me that not only sucks I see it as a threat to the country I and so many millions of us love. That is why I will probably never join another divisive political party and dont belong to any now. I research all candidates vote for whom I believe is best qualifies for each office. No partyline voting for me..
Now you know part of why I do not like his ways and means of accomplishment. I dont think trump really hates any of those. He USES everyone and everything he can anyway he can to achieve his goals.
Trump could at least probably be classified as a narcissist (I think he is actually a megalomaniac) but even as a narcissist the thrill of becoming the best of anything especially the president of the united states of America is one hell of a crown.
Yeah I think he has good intentions (and as you say for himself anyway) and I still dont approve of his ways and means of accomplishing much of anything.
PS: FYI, IMO: He is not succeeding as the Best president ever. This 100 percent negotiating mode he lives in sucks in many ways. It is what it is.
Thanks for the conversation so far and have a nice rest of the day.
They have to find an enemy, something or someone in the current society they can incite emotional responses and spread their lies and work their hate against.
Without such, their ideals fall apart in the same manner as a sand castle collapses under the waves.....
Their whole societal philosophy is based upon hate.....
Who in american society today organizes and spreads hate as their base to operate?
Yes the historical parallels are there, if people wish to see them.
So you are saying that what is being seen by some, is their interpretation of what they choose to see?
It could be said that way I suppose, but that not really the meaning I am trying to convey.....
Authoritarianism requires subjects that respond emotionally without thinking, the easiest emotion to invoke is hate. This is why authoritarians usually invoke hatred to something, someone or anything that will rile the crowd. Once riled they can be turned in almost any direction the authoritarian wants....
People who think for themselves are seldom duped by such shenanigans.
This is why they are the most hated.
For the rest, it comes in degrees and by the choice of what they wish to believe.... the interpretation comes after, when confronted with their hate, and they have to rationalize it into something they think is good. Hence they are right and everyone else if wrong breeding even more hatred in the process to defend their rationalizations. It eventually gets to the point where no matter how much they try to rationalize their interpretation away, the ideal is so outlandish as to be otherworldly.
That when they really go crazy....
If you allow such people to gain absolute power, then you wind up with the Hitlers and Stalins.
It is not the interpretations of the leaders that is the issue, it is that of the followers. Such followers are also the most irrational cause they haven't a clue what it is their leaders are after, all they have is what their leaders demand of them rationalized into a good thing.
Like this. on both sides of most wars, the national leaders claim for the masses that god is on their side and they need to go fight the good fight, even though they unknowingly are fighting for some of the most evil principles ever imagined. they believe, so they interpret the evil into good.
I usually bring this truth into a conversation by quoting the SS belt buckle of WWII "Got mit Uns" meaning God is with us.
It is what every single SS soldier wore every day he wore the uniform....
The historic parallels are there, if people care to see them...
Thanks for the clarification and additional thoughts....
I could be seeing / interpreting things differently than others, but I do not see the hate coming from Trump as much as I see it directed towards Trump .. there are nationalist that support Trump, and they are full of hate - yet their numbers add up to nothing significant, their organizations add up to 10 to 15k members … however the opposition has vast numbers - are organizing and seemingly desiring to control/block speech of other individuals .. even a time or 2 using violence - blocking freeways in order to prevent others from going to rally's etc...
Trump takes issue with the media .. and the FBI etc - it is not over presidential .. and the media is no longer professional nor non biased .. 'we' are reading opinion based news daily - with lil disclaimers about how they were unable to independently verify accounts in the article …. (the FBI - I do not know what to think about that .. I have a friend working for the FBI in Quantico Virginia .. that individuals is not overly impressed either at this time .. the bias is apparently showing during training...)
(but honestly I do not listen to Trump - when I do listen to him ….. my head begins to shake back and forth uncontrollably .....)
Point well taken ………..
Trump supporters come to mind.
So do current democrat supporters in their various "Movements"
Its not a case of them wanting another Hitler-- rather its an easily explained attempt to manipulate public opinion. Its called ...."exaggeration" (For any fans of big words that might be here...you can call it "hyperbole"
I have heard Republicans say that Obama is another Hitler...and more recently Democrats saying that Trump is another Hitler.
In the words of Albert Einstein:
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
Thanks Krishna : )
I think this goes a little further than someone trying to find a hurtful name to call someone, usually. Most normal people that look for another Hitler are really hoping they can't find one because he came real close to winning and destroyed so much and was responsible for so many deaths in the process. If he'd have won? It would have gotten worse.
The idea is to stop a Hitler before he gets rolling and destroys too much. Looking at it that way, can you blame people?
Whose interpretation of 'what a Hitler is' will be used?
How about any dictatorship. is that OK ?
It is to me.
IF I wanted to live in a country with ONE man controlling everything... I'd move.
I liked the fact we had 435 representatives 100 congress people and a president and Vice president in charge, O the good old days....
If the popularity of the 'cult of personality' that is Obama could not find the secret to controlling the world, what makes you think Trump has the ability?
Kavanaugh was not my choice for the Supreme Court .. but the last minute dropping of a sexual assault claim, was more Reich related than the nomination of Kavanaugh, or the vote confirming him ….!
controlling the world
I don’t think anyone can but I don’t think that stops some from Thinking Maybe They could.
You got it!
Excellent Point!
100% agree....
If we could only get then to do their jobs the way they are supposed to, like in the old days...
Instead of foisting their ideals upon us.....
Their ideas have turned into agendas driven by donors.
The politicians need the money to get the votes.
We the people no long are the top of the food chain, WTF do we expect ?
I was having Pinky and the Brain flash backs ...
or some..
There were options available to Feinstein, as there were options for legal counsel, yet none of those options were even broached .. none of this had to happen the way it did!
Big money donors who don't have to disclose who they are. Thanks, Citizen United!
That's off-topic but you're welcome to start a separate seed to explain that rather blatantly uninformed comment.
Have my comment removed .. problem solved
P.s.... if you do not think Feinstein had options available to her, then it is not me that in uninformed!
Buncha nonsense. Nazi comparisons are ridiculous no matter who is doing them. They are intended and serve not to illuminate important truths but to 1) galvanize Trump opposition and 2) silence or shame Trump supporters.
Trump has been president for almost two years now and life goes on pretty much as normal. In fact, many things are better, especially economically. No one has been exiled. No camps have opened. No one has been unfairly jailed. All of the horrors predicted by his opponents have not come to pass.
Nevertheless, the nazi comparisons which were there before he was even elected continue to this day. It's a political ploy. If you aren't fighting hard enough against Trump it's because you don't understand he's really the second coming of Adolf Hitler. If you support him, you should be ashamed of yourself for the same reason.
It doesn't matter the who, they did the same things to Bush, and then backdate their philosophy to Reagan.
You see it culminate when the leader of their party calls half of America hateful and despicable. we see it almost everyday on this site when people say that republicans shouldn't be part of anything.
Some even go so far as intimating that anyone of a conservative bent should be killed.
Anyone with open eyes know where the hate in our society comes from, and they make it a point to blame everyone else for it....
Correct.
Since many people on NT obviously feel they know it all and therefore never have to actually click on links before shooting off the mouth and voicing their opinion of the linked item-- I deeply sympathize!
However this brief video is one of the best comments re: the recent fashionable use of Hitler comparisons.
And its by the man who is one of the most brilliant political commentators alive today. (Plus he's very funny).
Yes-- of course that's an opinion.
But check it out.....
EXCELLENT!!!!!
I always liked Stewart.....
There is an integrity about him that no one else has on that side....
Hmmmm.....I wonder how Stewart would respond had he actually read the article in question? Apparently very few here have done so.
It's also pretty ironic that essays like this, in which the supposed Hitler is routinely denounced in the most brutal, hyberbolic terms, are routinely published in mainstream outlets like the New York Times Review of Books without fear of any reprisal or consequence from those smeared. Opposition media is thriving and reaching new levels of partisanship in the midst of a supposed fascist dictatorship. Posters on this very site call the people they denounce as fascist leaders rapists, child molesters etc.etc. knowing they are completely free to do so.
It's been the same since Goldwater. Every Republican is a Nazi. Collins made a nice point in her speech. The insane, sky is falling leftwingers were claiming Souter was going to kill woman if confirmed 20 plus years ago. It doesn't matter how many times they are wrong, the song remains the same.
We are watching the death of American democracy in real time, sad as it is. It was always inevitable though.
I have to disagree. The ATTEMPT that some group or another would try to take over our democratic system from within was inevitable, but so far the country has always managed to fend them off.
Thanks to Trump we're now seeing long term institutional damage to the government. What he's done to the FBI, SCOTUS and the Senate with this latest stunt won't be fixed quickly.
Well I guess some think swinging the political pendulum back towards center is damaging our nation.....
And even more think doing so is saving our nation....
A debate that's been raging for centuries.
If you read Jefferson's views on Whigs and Tories , you realize it has been going on for millennia, in many different great nations.... And why Thomas Jefferson, ostensibly a democrat republican, was the first true Republican president
Dementia is a terrible disease. My sympathy to the author.
Where did you get your medical degree?
I think i remember you.
I was the guy with the green face, cammies and smokin M-16.
Remember me?
What a farcical premise this guy has made.