A leading Holocaust historian just seriously compared the US to Nazi Germany

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  skrekk  •  2 years ago  •  208 comments

A leading Holocaust historian just seriously compared the US to Nazi Germany
“If the US has someone whom historians will look back on as the gravedigger of American democracy, it is Mitch McConnell.”

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



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Usually, comparisons between Donald Trump’s America and Nazi Germany come from cranks and internet trolls. But a new essay in   the New York Review of Books   pointing out “troubling similarities” between the 1930s and today is different: It’s written by Christopher Browning, one of America’s most eminent and well-respected historians of the Holocaust. In it, he warns that democracy here is under serious threat, in the way that German democracy was prior to Hitler’s rise — and really could topple altogether.

Browning, a professor emeritus at the University of North Carolina, specializes in the origins and operation of Nazi genocide. His 1992 book   Ordinary Men , a close examination of how an otherwise unremarkable German police battalion evolved into an instrument of mass slaughter, is widely seen as one of the defining works on how typical Germans became complicit in Nazi atrocities.

So when Browning makes comparisons between the rise of Hitler and our current historical period, this isn’t some keyboard warrior spouting off. It is one of the most knowledgeable people on Nazism alive using his expertise to sound the alarm as to what he sees as an existential threat to American democracy.

Browning’s essay covers many topics, ranging from Trump’s “America First” foreign policy — a phrase most closely associated with a group of   prewar American Nazi sympathizers   — to the role of Fox News as a kind of privatized state propaganda office. But the most interesting part of his argument is the comparison between Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and Paul von Hindenburg, the German leader who ultimately handed power over to Hitler. Here’s how Browning summarizes the history:


Paul von Hindenburg, elected president of Germany in 1925, was endowed by the Weimar Constitution with various emergency powers to defend German democracy should it be in dire peril. Instead of defending it, Hindenburg became its gravedigger, using these powers first to destroy democratic norms and then to ally with the Nazis to replace parliamentary government with authoritarian rule. Hindenburg began using his emergency powers in 1930, appointing a sequence of chancellors who ruled by decree rather than through parliamentary majorities, which had become increasingly impossible to obtain as a result of the Great Depression and the hyperpolarization of German politics. Because an ever-shrinking base of support for traditional conservatism made it impossible to carry out their authoritarian revision of the constitution, Hindenburg and the old right ultimately made their deal with Hitler and installed him as chancellor. Thinking that they could ultimately control Hitler while enjoying the benefits of his popular support, the conservatives were initially gratified by the fulfillment of their agenda: intensified rearmament, the outlawing of the Communist Party, the suspension first of freedom of speech, the press, and assembly and then of parliamentary government itself, a purge of the civil service, and the abolition of independent labor unions. Needless to say, the Nazis then proceeded far beyond the goals they shared with their conservative allies, who were powerless to hinder them in any significant way.

McConnell, in Browning’s eyes, is doing something similar — taking whatever actions he can to attain power, including breaking the system for judicial nominations (cough cough, Merrick Garland) and empowering a dangerous demagogue under the delusion that he can be fully controlled:


If the US has someone whom historians will look back on as the gravedigger of American democracy, it is Mitch McConnell. He stoked the hyperpolarization of American politics to make the Obama presidency as dysfunctional and paralyzed as he possibly could. As with parliamentary gridlock in Weimar, congressional gridlock in the US has diminished respect for democratic norms, allowing McConnell to trample them even more. Nowhere is this vicious circle clearer than in the obliteration of traditional precedents concerning judicial appointments. Systematic obstruction of nominations in Obama’s first term provoked Democrats to scrap the filibuster for all but Supreme Court nominations. Then McConnell’s unprecedented blocking of the Merrick Garland nomination required him in turn to scrap the filibuster for Supreme Court nominations in order to complete the “steal” of Antonin Scalia’s seat and confirm Neil Gorsuch. The extreme politicization of the judicial nomination process is once again on display in the current Kavanaugh hearings. ... Whatever secret reservations McConnell and other traditional Republican leaders have about Trump’s character, governing style, and possible criminality, they openly rejoice in the payoff they have received from their alliance with him and his base: huge tax cuts for the wealthy, financial and environmental deregulation, the nominations of two conservative Supreme Court justices (so far) and a host of other conservative judicial appointments, and a significant reduction in government-sponsored health care (though not yet the total abolition of Obamacare they hope for). Like Hitler’s conservative allies, McConnell and the Republicans have prided themselves on the early returns on their investment in Trump.

This is the key point that people often miss when talking about Hitler’s rise. The breakdown of German democracy started well before Hitler: Hyperpolarization led Hindenburg to strip away constraints on executive power as well as conclude that his left-wing opponents were a greater threat than fascism. The result, then, was a degradation of the everyday practice of democracy, to the point where the system was vulnerable to a Hitler-style figure.

Now, as Browning points out, “Trump is not Hitler and Trumpism is not Nazism.” The biggest and most important difference is that Hitler was an open and ideological opponent of the idea of democracy, whereas neither Trump nor the GOP wants to abolish elections.

What Browning worries about, instead, is a slow and quiet breakdown of American democracy — something more much like what you see in modern failed democracies like   Turkey .   Browning worries that Republicans have grown comfortable enough manipulating the rules of the democratic game to their advantage, with things like voter ID laws and gerrymandering, that they might go even further even after Trump is gone:

No matter how and when the Trump presidency ends, the specter of illiberalism will continue to haunt American politics. A highly politicized judiciary will remain, in which close Supreme Court decisions will be viewed by many as of dubious legitimacy, and future judicial appointments will be fiercely contested. The racial division, cultural conflict, and political polarization Trump has encouraged and intensified will be difficult to heal. Gerrymandering, voter suppression, and uncontrolled campaign spending will continue to result in elections skewed in an unrepresentative and undemocratic direction. Growing income disparity will be extremely difficult to halt, much less reverse.

I’ve observed this kind of modern authoritarianism firsthand in Hungary. In my dispatch after visiting there,   I warned of the same thing as Browning does here : The threat to the United States isn’t so much Trump alone as it is the breakdown in the practice of American democracy, and the Republican Party’s commitment to extreme tactics in pursuit of its policy goals in particular.

We are living through a period of serious threat to American democracy. And Browning’s essay, a serious piece by a serious scholar, shows that it’s not at all alarmist to say so.


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Skrekk
1  seeder  Skrekk    2 years ago

Lot's of good points in this essay especially after what we've seen with the GOP trying to push a credibly accused sexual predator and manifestly unfit nominee onto the supreme court.

 
 
 
Texan1211
1.1  Texan1211  replied to  Skrekk @1    2 years ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
321steve
1.1.1  321steve  replied to  Texan1211 @1.1    2 years ago

only  a relatively small handful think that anyone has CREDIBLY accused Kavanaugh of anything.

Then Perhaps after all the trouble she cause the majority should press charges for her false accusation.

the penalties for falsely accusing someone of a crime range from none at all to potentially decades behind bars.

https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2017/03/is-it-a-crime-to-falsely-accuse-someone-of-a-crime.html

Go Ahead !  Show everyone else how wrong they are. 

I have a feeling you have no case either.

Furthermore None of us will ever know, the powers to be dont want us to even if we could. 

This way they got what they want, period regardless of truth or reality.

What a country !

Just like the ACA all over again, now we get to see what they voted to approve.

Facts not important. Wonderful. I wish I could run my life like that.

 
 
 
bbl-1
1.1.2  bbl-1  replied to  321steve @1.1.1    2 years ago

Exactly.  If the GOP will not demand the DOJ arrest and charge Ford with lying under oath to congress and obstruction of official government business, the specter of the GOP itself not being honest in its conclusions are evident. 

I suspect the GOP will sweep this under the rug and with Kavanaugh on the court any future litigations will be dispensed with once and for all.  Win-win for GOP.  

 
 
 
Texan1211
1.1.3  Texan1211  replied to  321steve @1.1.1    2 years ago

I never said to prosecute her for anything, nor do I want anyone to do so.

It isn't good politics to do so.

Let the Democrats continue to be associated with her, and let the voters know that some Democrats voted against a man based solely on an uncorroborated story from Ford.

I look forward to voters punishing Democrats at the polls for such despicable behavior.

 
 
 
Texan1211
1.1.4  Texan1211  replied to  bbl-1 @1.1.2    2 years ago

They won't prosecute her. This way will be much better.

 
 
 
321steve
1.1.5  321steve  replied to  bbl-1 @1.1.2    2 years ago

the GOP will not demand the DOJ arrest and charge Ford with lying under oath to congress and obstruction of official government business

NO the fine GOP would never do that to this poor mistaken lady especially after the president seemed to feel sorry for the poor thing. President trump,” "I thought her testimony was very compelling and she looks like a very fine woman to me.

Yeah, She’ll be given a pass.

LOL

 
 
 
bbl-1
1.1.6  bbl-1  replied to  Texan1211 @1.1.3    2 years ago

"good politics to do so."  ? ?

Really?  What are you afraid of?  Truth maybe?  Or the lie?  Or, is it something else?

 
 
 
321steve
1.1.7  321steve  replied to  Texan1211 @1.1.3    2 years ago
I look forward to voters punishing Democrats at the polls for such despicable behavior.

I think we'll have people  from both sides out to as you put it "punish " the other side come election day.

and I still dont understand how all this division of us is good for America.

No one wants to seem to work together.

United we stood, how devided do we have to get to before we fall ?

 
 
 
321steve
1.1.8  321steve  replied to  Texan1211 @1.1.3    2 years ago
I never said to prosecute her for anything

Why if someone breaks the law they should be held accountable. Evidently she filed false charges against a federal judge. lock her up.

Like I said you have probably less of a case than she did.

I say Good luck America cause when this is the new standard of ethical behaviour from both sides we're all screwed sooner or later anyway.

 
 
 
Texan1211
1.1.9  Texan1211  replied to  bbl-1 @1.1.6    2 years ago

Seems like we went over and over this last night.

Don't you remember?

Or got stricken by the Ford virus?

 
 
 
Split Personality
1.1.10  Split Personality  replied to  Texan1211 @1.1.3    2 years ago
It isn't good politics to do so.

Naturally, both sides are driven by political expediency,

not by what is moral

or right,

or strictly legal.

But how much will this Mulligan cost either Party?

THAT is the question.

I too look forward to see who punishes who at the polls.

It's unpredictable isn't it?

Or, at least , it's supposed to be...

 
 
 
Skrekk
1.1.11  seeder  Skrekk  replied to  Texan1211 @1.1.9    2 years ago

Although I'll admit to introducing Kavanaugh, 1.1 through 1.1.9 are all off-topic.

 
 
 
Texan1211
1.1.12  Texan1211  replied to  Skrekk @1.1.11    2 years ago

Just to be clear:

Kavanaugh is strictly off limits to everyone but the seeder?

Just asking. I will abide by your decision.

 
 
 
Skrekk
1.1.13  seeder  Skrekk  replied to  Texan1211 @1.1.12    2 years ago

It is off-topic.    I'm not even sure that there's even a proper Kavanaugh parallel in the Nazi regime, but there is a direct parallel between the sort of right-wing court rigging the Nazis did and what the GOP has been doing.

 
 
 
bbl-1
1.1.14  bbl-1  replied to  Texan1211 @1.1.9    2 years ago

Nothing to go over.  Lying to congress or the FBI is a crime, punishable by 5 years for each count.  What is it you don't understand?

Just what it is. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
1.1.15  Texan1211  replied to  bbl-1 @1.1.14    2 years ago

Sorry, but I have been informed that is off topic.

 
 
 
bbl-1
1.1.16  bbl-1  replied to  321steve @1.1.8    2 years ago

The new standard of 'ethical behavior' was forever transformed when 'Grab em' by the puffy,' became a legitimate standard bearer for the American politic.

 
 
 
Texan1211
1.1.17  Texan1211  replied to  Skrekk @1.1.13    2 years ago

Wrong. The GOP President nominated a SCOTUS Justice. That is all. It is still up to the Senate to confirm that selection, in accordance with our Constitution. That isn't rigging, that is following law and precedent.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
1.1.18  Nowhere Man  replied to  Skrekk @1.1.13    2 years ago
but there is a direct parallel between the sort of right-wing court rigging the Nazis did and what the GOP has been doing

So what your really saying that appointing philosophically similar people to the court when you have the chance is not something the democrats do when they have the chance?

Seriously, that's funny!

Got another joke you want to tell?

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
1.1.20  Paula Bartholomew  replied to  Texan1211 @1.1.3    2 years ago

I look forward to the report that Texas will turn from red to blue.

 
 
 
Texan1211
1.1.21  Texan1211  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @1.1.20    2 years ago

Lots of Democrats were telling me that when Wendy Davis ran. Didn't happen. She got beat worse than the last one did.

 
 
 
Texan1211
1.1.22  Texan1211  replied to  Texan1211 @1.1    2 years ago

How can that POSSIBLY be off topic when the seeder brought it up?

Seed an article, bring up a different topic, then flag a response as off topic?

That's pretty weak sauce!

 
 
 
321steve
1.2  321steve  replied to  Skrekk @1    2 years ago

Lot's of good points in this essay

Yep some of which have been being pointed out for over a year to unhearing minds. I look for that to continue.

I believe unless trumps followers themselves are somehow hurt it is going to be next to impossible to stop whatever this man desires. Basically no matter WTF he says or does.

I fail to see how this makes us a better country.

 
 
 
321steve
1.2.2  321steve  replied to    2 years ago

The reality is that Trump has made us a better country.

IMO: The reality is that every president we've had has done both some good and some bad for the country, president trump is no exception. 

Much of what president trump has begun is just that begun, time will tell as it always does what the real long term effects the presidents actions and words have had. 

Personally I think not being able to take the president "At his word" Sucks.

Yeah negotiating tactics and gambets may be nice but I'd prefer facts, honesty and the truth from the most powerful human on the planet instead. 

Good Luck America

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
1.2.3  Paula Bartholomew  replied to    2 years ago

You keep on telling yourself that as the Kool Aid toxicity sets in.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
1.2.4  Jack_TX  replied to    2 years ago
The reality is that Trump has made us a better country.

Trump's impact on the country is actually minimal, as is the case with most presidents.  The limitations on the office ensure that no president has that power.

But we're in a time when enormous numbers of Americans make decisions solely based on their "feelings".  Those people dislike Trump immensely because he has utter disregard or even casual contempt for their "feelings".

When one's emotions are in control, good things seem much better than they are and bad things seem like the end of the world.  But it's fantasy, not reality.  In that fantasy world, we've gone from free and happy utopia to fascist dictatorship in less than 24 months and Trump = Hitler.   It's idiotic on a whole new scale, I know, but that's what happens when emotions take over.

 
 
 
bbl-1
2  bbl-1    2 years ago

As to the subject of this seed.  The Nazis, once they attained majorities, solidified the courts and law enforcement.

As for the ensuing policies undertaken by the Nazis, the American right wing will not make those mistakes again.  They have learned.  Putin has installed a new and more secure way to attain, hold onto and exercise the power of the State.  I suspect his ( Putin's ) blueprint will adhere to. 

Kavanaugh's statement of, "What goes around comes around," should not be taken lightly.  Often, when someone tells you what they are, believe them.

 
 
 
Texan1211
2.1  Texan1211  replied to  bbl-1 @2    2 years ago

The Nazi references are inaccurate, shameful, and rather stupid.

 
 
 
bbl-1
2.1.1  bbl-1  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1    2 years ago

Except they aren't.  That is how the Nazis did it.

 
 
 
Texan1211
2.1.2  Texan1211  replied to  bbl-1 @2.1.1    2 years ago

Yeah, they really are.

Down right disgusting, too.

 
 
 
Skrekk
2.1.3  seeder  Skrekk  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1    2 years ago
The Nazi references are inaccurate, shameful, and rather stupid.

Apparently the Holocaust historian who wrote the article disagrees with you.    And there are far more parallels than the ones he mentioned including Trump's support for white supremacy, antisemitism, misogyny, homophobia, the demonization of immigrants, and Christian extremism.

Heck, Trump even seems to have a similar view about the disabled which Hitler had.    No wonder he's proud of his "German blood."

The real question is whether the Republic will survive the damage which Trump has done and continues to do to it.    I doubt SCOTUS will.

 
 
 
Texan1211
2.1.4  Texan1211  replied to  Skrekk @2.1.3    2 years ago

Is Trump on topic?

 
 
 
Skrekk
2.1.5  seeder  Skrekk  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.4    2 years ago
Is Trump on topic?

That is what the seeded article is about - the numerous comparisons between the fascist threats posed by Trump and Hitler to their respective Republics.

Heck, even the Germans think Trump is a fascist and an authoritarian.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/donald-trump-is-the-most-dangerous-man-in-the-world-a-1075060.html

 
 
 
Texan1211
2.1.6  Texan1211  replied to  Skrekk @2.1.5    2 years ago

You mean one man's OPINION about comparisons, right?

Not any real threats.

Do you personally feel threatened in some way?

And had you not mentioned Kavanaugh in your opening statement, I would not have commented on it. I figured when the seeder brings it up, it must be the topic.

 
 
 
321steve
2.1.7  321steve  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.6    2 years ago

Do you personally feel threatened in some way?

If it gets to the point citizens personally feel threatened, its probably too late.

Seriously !

 
 
 
bbl-1
2.1.8  bbl-1  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.2    2 years ago

Absolutely.  The Nazis were disgusting.  They used their unfettered powers to legally build death camps and wage war while plundering everything and everyone they could.

 
 
 
Texan1211
2.1.9  Texan1211  replied to  bbl-1 @2.1.8    2 years ago

Yep, the Nazis were disgusting, and so is comparing modern America with them.

 
 
 
Skrekk
2.1.10  seeder  Skrekk  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.9    2 years ago
Nazis were disgusting, and so is comparing modern America with them.

There seem to be many direct parallels as the Holocaust historian noted, not the least of which are the "America First" morons (who were mostly Republicans too).    Make the Reich Great Again.

 
 
 
Texan1211
2.1.11  Texan1211  replied to  Skrekk @2.1.10    2 years ago

Sometimes I wonder about those who think America is anything like Nazi Germany.

It is completely, totally ridiculous.

Maybe all those folks should move to another, better place in the world.

They might be happier.

Unless they just enjoy the freedom we have here to criticize our government and are afraid other countries won't allow it.

 
 
 
Skrekk
2.1.12  seeder  Skrekk  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.11    2 years ago
Sometimes I wonder about those who think America is anything like Nazi Germany. It is completely, totally ridiculous.

I wonder if Hitler endorsed ruthless authoritarians in other countries like Trump has done with his endorsements of Duterte and KIm Jong-Un?

Oh wait....he did.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
2.1.13  Nowhere Man  replied to  Skrekk @2.1.5    2 years ago

DER SPIEGLE? 

That communist rag? You have GOT TO BE KIDDING!

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
2.1.14  Paula Bartholomew  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.6    2 years ago

The man is an expert so it is more fact than opinion.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
2.1.15  Nowhere Man  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @2.1.14    2 years ago

The man is an expert on opinions not history....

anyone that can interject his opinion into history and call it fact is neither a historian nor one who has any integrity....

But of course he has all these letters behind his name from the badges he earned in various schools. that makes him in my opinion an educated idiot.

Exactly what certain political circles around the world want. Useful idiots.

How are they used? To justify their own distortions and false realities....

You are aware that historians have two opinion camps on hitler and his motivations, reasoning and effect on the world?

They have gone so far in analyzing his history searching for that next great idealistic truth that they have lost all sight of reality...

history is the study of facts and dates and places and prominent figures to gain insight into the human condition and understand the whys, this is done so we have an understanding of what transpired so we hopefully do not repeat it...

Nothing this guy writes, (I've read him and others extensively) has contributed anything to the historical record, with him it is always an argument with the other side on how things should be interpreted...

This does not contribute to greater understanding, but it can be used to pervert and destroy understanding.

like is being done with this article.....

 
 
 
Tacos!
2.1.16  Tacos!  replied to  Skrekk @2.1.12    2 years ago
I wonder if Hitler endorsed ruthless authoritarians in other countries like Trump has done with his endorsements of Duterte and KIm Jong-Un? Oh wait....he did.

Is that the metric now? Because . . . 

Obama defends greeting Hugo Chavez

White House praises ‘Venezuelan people’ after Chavez victory

Not to mention the tons of other left-wing lunatics in America who enthusiastically cheered his ascent to the throne. Also,

Obama, in Ethiopia, Calls Its Government ‘Democratically Elected’

even though,

The elections in May were condemned by human rights groups as a sham.

U.K. Condemns Muslim Brotherhood, While White House Hosts It

In a major break with the U.S., Britain has banned the radical Muslim Brotherhood, a group that raises the global banner of violent jihad, while the Obama regime continues to treat it like the Rotary Club.

Obama takes heat for inviting Thai coup leader to California summit

Human rights activists, opposition party leaders and scholars are sharply criticizing President Obama’s decision to include Thai Prime Minister Prayuth Chan-ocha , head of the junta that seized power two years ago, in next week’s summit for Southeast Asian leaders in California, warning that the former army general will display the invitation as Washington ’s endorsement of the military regime.
 
 
 
bugsy
2.1.17  bugsy  replied to  Tacos! @2.1.16    2 years ago

UH oh, you're going to get called a nazi now.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
2.1.18  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.11    2 years ago
"Sometimes I wonder about those who think America is anything like Nazi Germany. It is completely, totally ridiculous."

Unless, maybe, you just happen to be Jewish.

19 swastikas desecrate Virginia Jewish center October 7, 2018

43405840_10155624801271389_7990703602425

Staff at the Jewish Community Center of Western Virginia – located in Fairfax County, around 14 miles west of Washington, D.C. – arrived at 8 a.m. Saturday to discover 19 swastikas painted on the building. It was the second such act of anti-Semitic vandalism in 18 months.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
2.1.19  Trout Giggles  replied to  Skrekk @2.1.5    2 years ago

Of course, trmp is on topic. Anybody asking that question is a knucklehead

 
 
 
Jack_TX
2.1.20  Jack_TX  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.1.18    2 years ago
Unless, maybe, you just happen to be Jewish. 19 swastikas desecrate Virginia Jewish center October 7, 2018

That kind of bullshit has been going on for decades.  If it didn't make us comparable to Nazi Germany in 1978, it doesn't do that today.

 
 
 
Skrekk
2.1.21  seeder  Skrekk  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.1.18    2 years ago
Unless, maybe, you just happen to be Jewish.

Trump's loyal white supremacist base says that "Jews will not replace us!"

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
2.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  bbl-1 @2    2 years ago

Nazis had a scapegoat, the Jews. And to some extent, the Communists.

Trumpers have the Left and Liberals.

 
 
 
KDMichigan
2.2.1  KDMichigan  replied to  Trout Giggles @2.2    2 years ago
the Left and Liberals.

Isn't the left liberals? You say the left we get the point, progressives, ANIFA, socialist, Marxist is all the left.

And Just how is President Trump a Nazi? Please do tell, not what ifs and coulda or nutter butter peanut butter. What has he done that has hurt you?

 
 
 
badfish
2.2.2  badfish  replied to  KDMichigan @2.2.1    2 years ago

I'm starting the Furries for America protest campaign.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
2.2.3  Trout Giggles  replied to  KDMichigan @2.2.1    2 years ago

my tax cut sux

 
 
 
321steve
2.2.4  321steve  replied to  KDMichigan @2.2.1    2 years ago
the Left and Liberals.
Isn't the left liberals?

Yep just like with the conservatives there are only two kinds of humans..........

LOL

So many millions of individuals shoved into two little catagories of believe. 

I'm glad I'm an individual independent !  I freely go where I want and think what I want. and vote the way I want. plus neither corrupted party gets to count me in their number to gain more power over me. But, Have fun. And BTW, good luck controlling the people hired to run the country.

 
 
 
321steve
2.2.5  321steve  replied to  KDMichigan @2.2.1    2 years ago
What has he done that has hurt you?

Not a damn thing, But, if any president does things that start hurting us as individuals IMO: its well past time for a new president. 

IMO: president trump as with all past presidents only time will really tell what their influence has been on this country. 

Furthermore I have yet to see any president not have both some good and some harm left in their wake, I highly doubt president trump will be an exception. 

Words and details DO matter regardless of what this president seems to think. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
2.2.6  Jack_TX  replied to  321steve @2.2.5    2 years ago
Furthermore I have yet to see any president not have both some good and some harm left in their wake, I highly doubt president trump will be an exception. 

DING!!  And we have a winner!

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
2.2.7  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  321steve @2.2.4    2 years ago

It doesn't seem to matter if you're an independent, or a centrist, or non-partisan, or objective, or have no skin in the game, or not even an American - no matter what you post, a conservative will blast you for being a liberal-supporter and a liberal will blast you for being a conservative-supporter. 

 
 
 
321steve
2.2.8  321steve  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.7    2 years ago

- no matter what you post, a conservative will blast you for being a liberal-supporter and a liberal will blast you for being a conservative-supporter.

That does seem to be the case these days Buzz. It’s sad. But IMO: Not unexpected. The way the politicians and media have divided up the general public in this country for their own power and profit is sickening. Unfortunately I do not see an end to it. Thankfully for myself I’m kinda toward the end of caring too damn much. I learned long ago when you think someone is messing up you’re not likely to change it. That’s kind of the attitude I’ve taken on watching the division of America.

There isn’t much I can do to change it, I still don’t willing allow myself to engage in it any more than I have to, lead myself into doing or certainly intend to. Sometimes I slip myself and find myself TOO engaged in an issue or side. At that point I, when I recognize it I take a break.

My sanity, and well being is much too important to me to let myself get all upset over nothing I can do a damn thing about anyway. As I see it a central, neutral, independent, pragmatic analogical, organized and responsible way to approach everything is still the best method of living for me. I believe Balance is very important for a person and a nation.  Unfortunately as a nation I believe we are losing that balance, But, that doesn’t mean I have to as well.

Thanks Buzz, Have a nice day evening or whatever it is where you are.

And… To each their own.

 
 
 
Krishna
3  Krishna    2 years ago

The U.S. -- equivalent to Nazi Germany?

320

Link : When 20,000 American Nazis Descended Upon New York City

 
 
 
Skrekk
3.1  seeder  Skrekk  replied to  Krishna @3    2 years ago

I wonder if their leadership ridiculed sexual assault victims too or was that beneath even the Nazis?

And did the rally attendees assault black protesters or were blacks simply not allowed in?

 
 
 
dave-2693993
3.1.1  dave-2693993  replied to  Skrekk @3.1    2 years ago

Based on how Hitler handled loses to Jessie Owens during the 1936 Olympics, blacks were most likely not allowed in.

As for sexual assault against women, given the high numbers of teenage girls who became pregnant at the nazi youth camps, questions easily surface.

Then there are stories of other boys being victims when no girls were available.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
3.1.2  Nowhere Man  replied to  Skrekk @3.1    2 years ago

No.

Nazi leadership did not ridicule sexual assault victims. In fact the nazi version of the girl scouts,  The  League of German Girls  or  Band of German Maidens  actually touted that being a true germanic female meant the duty to be as healthy as can be and as sexually free as one could be. The purpose was to give birth to and raise healthy, racially pure german boys. Ostensibly to repeat the process over and over.....

I didn't even know about this part of the nazification of Germany until my Mother in Law brought it up in a conversation. She was born in Germany in 1924, and was raised up under the Nazi regime. And as soon as she became capable she became a member of this bizarre girls organization. Membership was compulsory.

They were being trained in how to be a good wife and produce strong german sons... And according to her, the education they were given was quite specific. Sex for the fatherland was not only required, it was your duty as both a full blooded german and a good citizen. Also, that they shouldn't be ashamed for being sexual.

Sounds more like the free sex movement than the republican party...

And we know to which party the free sex movement belongs to today....

 
 
 
Krishna
3.1.3  Krishna  replied to  Skrekk @3.1    2 years ago

And did the rally attendees assault black protesters or were blacks simply not allowed in?

I don't know this for a fact, but my quess would be that members of any "inferior races" would not be allowed in-- this of course would include blacks, Jews, Slavs...and a lot of other "impure races".

However one jewish guy did manage to sneak--  bnd he foolishly approached the speakers platform. He was beaten by guards.

 
 
 
Split Personality
3.1.4  Split Personality  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.2    2 years ago
They were being trained in how to be a good wife and produce strong german sons... And according to her, the education they were given was quite specific. Sex for the fatherland was not only required, it was your duty as both a full blooded german and a good citizen. Also, that they shouldn't be ashamed for being sexual.

Sounds like my marriage orientation with my first bride and a Catholic priest in the late 60's.

I had never seen that woman so pissed off; not even during the divorce a decade later.

It should have been an omen....

 
 
 
Krishna
3.1.5  Krishna  replied to  Skrekk @3.1    2 years ago
I wonder if their leadership ridiculed sexual assault victims too or was that beneath even the Nazis? And did the rally attendees assault black protesters or were blacks simply not allowed in?

As to women I don't know.

We don't hear much about Nazi anti-black racism in Germany at that time. But that's for a reason-- at that time there almost no blacks in Germany (possibly not even 1?). However, I've seen a lot of Nazi propaganda-- and there is a fair amount of propaganda denigrating blacks as well. 

 
 
 
Krishna
3.1.6  Krishna  replied to  Split Personality @3.1.4    2 years ago
They were being trained in how to be a good wife and produce strong german sons... And according to her, the education they were given was quite specific. Sex for the fatherland was not only required, it was your duty as both a full blooded german and a good citizen. Also, that they shouldn't be ashamed for being sexual.

Sounds like my marriage orientation with my first bride and a Catholic priest in the late 60's.

I had never seen that woman so pissed off; not even during the divorce a decade later.

It should have been an omen....

I think people who rigidly adhere to any belief system can be quite obnoxious-- and probably most of them are borderline mentally ill as well. (By belief systems I mean religion and that includes Evangelical Atheists.-Politics-- and in some cases even Science).

 
 
 
Skrekk
3.1.7  seeder  Skrekk  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.2    2 years ago
Nazi leadership did not ridicule sexual assault victims. In fact the nazi version of the girl scouts, The League of German Girls or Band of German Maidens actually touted that being a true germanic female meant the duty to be as healthy as can be and as sexually free as one could be.

Seems like misogyny, rape and anti-abortion laws go hand in hand with authoritarianism.    In fact Germany is currently trying to get rid of a Nazi-era law which prohibited doctors from disseminating information about abortion.    And in the latter part of the Nazi era abortion carried the death penalty for "Aryan" women.   

Didn't Trump also say that any women who get abortions should be punished?    Seems like another rather direct parallel between these authoritarian regimes. 

 
 
 
Skrekk
3.1.8  seeder  Skrekk  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.2    2 years ago
Sounds more like the free sex movement than the republican party...

Actually the free love and liberalization era of Germany was primarily from when it first became a country through the end of the Weimar Republic, but there's no doubt that the Nazis encouraged white folks to have kids.    That's why they passed several very harsh anti-abortion laws between 1933-1943 (at least where white folks were concerned).    Non-whites were encouraged to get abortions as frequently as possible in order to eliminate those who weren't "very fine people."

So just like in the US today, 1930s Germany followed a progressive era with a reactionary right wing one.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
3.1.9  Nowhere Man  replied to  Skrekk @3.1.8    2 years ago
So just like in the US today, 1930s Germany followed a progressive era with a reactionary right wing one.

WE are never going to agree on this but I will try to respond...

Germany followed a rather benign conservative era (with a very weak government) with a radical socialist one.

We are following a radical progressive liberal era with a rather conservative one.....

And I believe we are coming out better for it, since we are no longer on the path to destruction...

The radical socialist path germany chose in the 30's, well we all see where it led them.... complete and utter destruction.

 
 
 
r.t..b...
3.1.10  r.t..b...  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.9    2 years ago
with a rather conservative one.....

But if you substitute 'nationalist' in stead of 'conservative'...which can be argued given the rhetoric, the premise does indeed have merit. Let us hope it does not also lead to 'complete and utter destruction.'

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
3.1.11  Nowhere Man  replied to  r.t..b... @3.1.10    2 years ago

Well you make an interesting point, a huge stretch true, (america has never been a nationalistic nation with a nationalist government) Although I would agree that there are groups and personages that would like it to be on both sides.

But I would have to disagree with transposing conservative with nationalist, unless you agree that it works just as well transposing Democrat with the same...

The only thing that leads to complete destruction is hate, and the fear that breeds hate...

 
 
 
r.t..b...
3.1.12  r.t..b...  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.11    2 years ago
The only thing that leads to complete destruction is hate, and the fear that breeds hate...

Well said. History will be the final arbiter...and in spite of all the hate being spewed (from both sides), no one wants that to be the epilogue to our story.

 
 
 
Krishna
3.1.13  Krishna  replied to  Skrekk @3.1.8    2 years ago

So just like in the US today, 1930s Germany followed a progressive era with a reactionary right wing one.

I have heard some historians put forth what is sometimes called "the Pendulum Theory of History". This states then when there's a moderately right wing or left wing government, over time it gets more and more extreme. Finally it gets so extreme that the people rebel-- and put in a new government on the opposite side of the political spectrum. 

Then, of course the new government eventually becomes mores extreme-- the people eventually rebel..and the cycle repeats itself. 

(I do not know enough world history to know if this theory is correct-- but it seems there does seem to be many examples of this.. and not just in the U.S.)

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
3.1.14  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.2    2 years ago
Sex for the fatherland was not only required, it was your duty as both a full blooded german and a good citizen. Also, that they shouldn't be ashamed for being sexual.

Sounds more like the free sex movement than the republican party...

And we know to which party the free sex movement belongs to today....

"You're required to have sex for the fatherland" is hardly a "free sex movement".  It's pretty much the opposite.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
3.1.15  Nowhere Man  replied to  sandy-2021492 @3.1.14    2 years ago
"You're required to have sex for the fatherland" is hardly a "free sex movement".  It's pretty much the opposite.

Taken as written yes very true. Taken as My Mother-in-Law explained it, not so much. AS she explained it sex was not something to be ostracized about it was a natural function of people and as such had the advantage of building the aryan race...

It wasn't like you were expected to just go out and boink every male you saw until you got preggers... it was more like you were expected to be open to the advances of males, even if you did not necessarily want such...... Don't get me wrong, rape was not tolerated at all, but submitting to sex cause you allowed a male too much latitude was completely tolerated, in fact expected. Young ladies did not party alone with young men until they became adults.

Of course this is one woman's perspective who was part of it, I give it a lot of weight. Especially the part about living in Soviet occupied Germany as a young female adult. 

She is very thankful she got the chance to escape before they closed the borders.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
3.1.16  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.15    2 years ago

Yeah, still not buying the "free sex movement" thing.  And "do it even if you don't want to" and "rape was not tolerated at all" - well, those don't really add up, either.  Nice try, though.  That's still government in your bedroom.  And we know which party wants government in our bedrooms today...

 
 
 
Krishna
3.1.17  Krishna  replied to  Skrekk @3.1.7    2 years ago
Didn't Trump also say that any women who get abortions should be punished? 

Yes-- indeed he did.

He was being interviewed by Chris Matthews (whom BTW, is Catholic). Matthews asked Trump about his position on abortion-- and specifically, should a woman who has an abortion be punished?

A Yes or No question . . .

As he often does, Trump danced around the question-- tried to mislead matthews and those watching. He said a lot but of course refused to answer the question.

Matthews, however, is a seasoned reporter-- and once he senses that someone he's interviewing refuses to answer a question-- Matthews latches on like a bulldog until he gets a straight answer!

I realize that it may be "politically incorrect" to post videos or links to videos on NT-- after all so many people here are so sure that they know it all-- so they won't even watch a relevant video! (What's the point in watching a video-- when you know it all anyway?)

However, this one is worthwhile-- both to actually see how Trunks wiggles around and attempts to avoid giving a straight answer-- andalso how he finally, actually does!

(And of course Matthew's excellent interview techniques :-))

Donald Trump's evasive stance on whether or not women should be punished for having an abortion

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
3.1.18  Nowhere Man  replied to  sandy-2021492 @3.1.16    2 years ago

Not selling anything, so there is nothing to buy. and no, some of it doesn't make sense to me either. It is what she said was going on. She is still alive we had to place her in a home about five years ago in her '90's now. She was diagnosed two years ago with Alzheimer's so in that respect she can forget which is a blessing I suppose.

There are differing viewpoints I suppose, and no I'm not one that wants to be in anyone's bedroom but my own so the political reference to liberal democrat feminist dogma was unnecessary.

I'm no longer a republican haven't been for over 30 years. Too crazy for me. I only became one cause the democrats became too crazy for me over 40 years ago.

But since you interject such references into what I thought was a decent conversation i'll say goodbye and allow you your beliefs as erroneous as I think they are.

Thank you for the good conversation as far as it went...

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
3.1.19  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.18    2 years ago
But since you interject such references

But

Sounds more like the free sex movement than the republican party... And we know to which party the free sex movement belongs to today....

I interjected such references, hmmm?  Those references hadn't already been made?

I'm sorry to hear of your MIL's illness.

Encouraging a lack of prudishness is not the same as encouraging "free sex".  It's just encouraging a lack of prudishness.  This would have been sex at the direction of the state, which is most decidedly not free.  And it was intended to lead to reproduction in order to make new Nazis, with abortion illegal.  This was hardly in support of a view of women as valuable members of society, other than as broodmares.  It's not really an indication that rape was frowned upon, when women were told they didn't have the right to say "no".

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
3.1.20  Trout Giggles  replied to  Skrekk @3.1.8    2 years ago

The Nazis were pretty liberal in sterilizing "non-contributing" members of socitey, too

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
3.1.21  Trout Giggles  replied to  Krishna @3.1.17    2 years ago

That's quite the dodge ball game....duck, dip, dive, deflect, and dodge

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
3.1.22  Trout Giggles  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.15    2 years ago
it was a natural function of people and as such had the advantage of building the aryan race...

Key word....aryan

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
3.1.23  Colour Me Free  replied to  Krishna @3.1.17    2 years ago

The whole thing was a ridiculous exchange of 'what ifs' … abortion legality is a loaded question - SHOULD abortion, if it becomes illegal (which is not going to happen in my life time) be penalized under the law …?

Even if I say no, someone will question my response … 'we' all know that Trump is far from conservative, and is speaking in terms he does not understand .. as he is pro - choice always has been always will be..  he danced around for that very reason...

Funny how Obama insults Trump at a correspondents dinner and he [Trump] becomes a conservative that for some fuck'd up reason suddenly was a valued endorser of conservative presidential candidates? --- mind blowing, unreal, unf'ing believable!!!..……. in my opinion .. 2012 opened the gates!

 
 
 
bbl-1
3.2  bbl-1  replied to  Krishna @3    2 years ago

MAGA

 
 
 
Split Personality
3.2.1  Split Personality  replied to  bbl-1 @3.2    2 years ago

Make Authoritarianism Great Again?

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.2.2  Texan1211  replied to  Split Personality @3.2.1    2 years ago

Make Asinine Gnats Angry?

 
 
 
MrFrost
3.2.3  MrFrost  replied to  bbl-1 @3.2    2 years ago

512

 
 
 
Split Personality
3.2.4  Split Personality  replied to  MrFrost @3.2.3    2 years ago

Morons Are Governing Again ?

 
 
 
bugsy
3.2.5  bugsy  replied to  MrFrost @3.2.3    2 years ago

Jealous?

 
 
 
Ronin2
3.2.6  Ronin2  replied to  Split Personality @3.2.4    2 years ago

When did they ever stop? Of course they are governing over moronic voters that keep voting them in; so we have exactly the government we deserve.  We have been fleeced by every modern president, and keep going back to the two party trough for more.

The left is just pissed it isn't their moron in charge fleecing us. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
3.2.7  Split Personality  replied to  Ronin2 @3.2.6    2 years ago

Agreed

 
 
 
MrFrost
3.2.8  MrFrost  replied to  bugsy @3.2.5    2 years ago

Of what? I golf quite a bit but i have time to do so. Trump is a hypocrite, deal with it. 

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
3.3  Nowhere Man  replied to  Krishna @3    2 years ago

Hey that is what free speech is all about...

And yes, the German-American Bund was directly connected to the German Nazi's but also connected directly to Adolph.....

But then so was Henry Ford.....

 
 
 
Krishna
3.3.1  Krishna  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.3    2 years ago
But then so was Henry Ford.....

Yup:

384

German diplomats award Henry Ford, center, with their nation's highest decoration

for foreigners, the Grand Cross of the German Eagle, in July 1938.  (AP Photo)  

And he didn't get it for building cars!

 
 
 
bbl-1
3.3.2  bbl-1  replied to  Krishna @3.3.1    2 years ago

There were many Americans that supported the Nazis, at least in the beginning.  Charles Lindberg comes to mind.

 
 
 
dave-2693993
3.3.3  dave-2693993  replied to  bbl-1 @3.3.2    2 years ago

The nazis had many fans here in America:video-undefined-276CA76800000578-179_636x358.jpg

gettyimages-114950990.jpg?w=1200

new-york-nazis-1938-long-island-german-american-bund-3.jpg

160701-troy-nazi-camp-tease_af1euq.jpg

140917-american-nazi-party-1937.jpg?quality=85&w=394

ParadeGermanAmericanBund-610x480.jpg

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
3.3.4  Nowhere Man  replied to  Krishna @3.3.1    2 years ago

He got it for two things, his support for Nazi policies, (including their policies towards the jews) and for creating the Opel subsidiary of Ford in Germany.

Opel built thousands and thousands of trucks for the German Army before and during the war..... (which were Ford designs, it was also why Ford didn't build trucks for the American army)

Ford was an Internationalist..... One of those global elites..... 

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
3.3.5  Nowhere Man  replied to  bbl-1 @3.3.2    2 years ago

Lindberg never belonged to the bund, and was never directly connected to the Nazi's. But he was an American Firster and spoke at length against America's mobilization in '39-'40 and about staying out of the war....

 
 
 
bbl-1
3.3.6  bbl-1  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.3.5    2 years ago

Never said Lindberg belonged to 'the bund.'  But he did travel to Germany, observed the Luftwaffe and said it was invincible.  He also praised German might and gave them praise for their advancements and rebuilding under the Nazi government.

And----he was "A Firster." 

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
3.3.7  Nowhere Man  replied to  bbl-1 @3.3.6    2 years ago

All of that is very very true, in fact he was also allowed to test fly an Me-109. not an experimental version either an actual combat capable aircraft. It was his oral report on it's capabilities that caused the USAAC to revise it's standards and requirements for fighter aircraft.

He was impressed with their technological capabilities....

 
 
 
Krishna
3.3.8  Krishna  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.3.5    2 years ago

Lindberg never belonged to the bund, and was never directly connected to the Nazi's. But he was an American Firster and spoke at length against America's mobilization in '39-'40 and about staying out of the war....

It would seem to be a logical assumption that those Americans that were anti-Nazi would demonstrate for the U.S. to enter the war ...on the side of the Allies. And that those who were pro-nazi would demonstrate for the U.S. to enter the war on the side of the Axis.

But that was usually not the case. While anti-Nazis pushed for the U.S. to enter on the side of the Allies, pro-Nazi Americans didn't publically advocate the U.S. enter the war on the Axis side. They realized that that wouldn't sell. So instead they demonstrated for the U.S. to stay out entirely. In fact they started some "Peace organizations"--urging the U.S. stay out.

BTW the U.S. didn't decide to enter the war to fight Facism. Most Americans were extremely isolationist & didn't want to enter the war at all.. The only reason we finally entered was that we were attacked! (Pearl Harbour).

 
 
 
Krishna
3.3.9  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @3.3.8    2 years ago
BTW the U.S. didn't decide to enter the war to fight Fascism. Most Americans were extremely isolationist & didn't want to enter the war at all.. The only reason we finally entered was that we were attacked! (Pearl Harbour).

Long ago-- I was still in Elementary School!-- I read an excellent book about pro-nazi attempts at subversion in the U.S.-- and their agitating to keep the U.S. out of the was (so we wouldn't fight nazi germany/Imperial Japan). I was wondering if it was still in print or still available-- so I checked-- its still available.

(Note: it says "are now plotting to destroy us"-- that "Now" refers to the date it was published-- 1943!).

On Amazon.com:

Top customer reviews

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Dirtlawyer
January 26, 2017
Format: Hardcover  Verified Purchase
I first read Under Cover as a young teenager. It belonged to my mother. The recent election, with references to "America first" reminded me of the book, and the only way I could re-read it was to buy a copy. It is as I remembered, and scared the hell out of me.
5 people found this helpful
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Lisbon
August 2, 2018
Format: Hardcover  Verified Purchase
Fascinating.book suggested by a Facebook friend.
Recommend reading for anyone interested in Nazis and other fringe groups
In this country. Thug messages remain the same. Nazi symbols and white nationalism
on leaflets rather than the internet.

 
 
 
dave-2693993
3.3.10  dave-2693993  replied to  Krishna @3.3.8    2 years ago
While anti-Nazis pushed for the U.S. to enter on the side of the Allies, pro-Nazi Americans didn't publically advocate the U.S. enter the war on the Axis side. They realized that that wouldn't sell. So instead they demonstrated for the U.S. to stay out entirely. In fact they started some "Peace organizations"--urging the U.S. stay out.

Just an FWIW, on an individual basis, German nazis who visited here for rallies and such, would often track down faighting ae men of German descent and encourage (aka intimidate) these men to go "back home and fight for the Fatherland'.

My Grandfather took on a German name after escaping Russia during Stalin's revolution, which resulted in him getting a couple visits from these German Nazis a couple times. They made the mistake of trying the intimidation tactic once. Once.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
3.3.11  Nowhere Man  replied to  Krishna @3.3.8    2 years ago

We declared War on Japan, we did not declare war on Germany until AFTER Germany declared war on us in retaliation for our declaration against Japan. Not that we weren't already in a shooting war with Germany, long before the Japanese attack, it just wasn't official.... We would have eventually entered the war against Germany, although probably not until '42 at least, probably '43.

Our military was woefully unprepared for war...

There were a LOT of nazi's and sympathizers in the America First movement, a number of them became spies for Germany one of them had sent back pictures back of this...

original

Which was shown to Adolph Hitler and he went into a rage proclaiming that the spy was being duped into unbelievable crap. Nobody could build locomotives that big....

That is UP 4012 built by ALCO in '40 and used by UP to haul coal and raw materials in utah and wyoming mountains...

Hitler didn't have a clue what he was facing...

Yes some of the American Firsters were not good honest hard working americans...

 
 
 
dave-2693993
3.3.12  dave-2693993  replied to  dave-2693993 @3.3.10    2 years ago
Russia during Stalin's revolution

No. Lenin's Revolution. I do that from time to time...stupid...

 
 
 
Skrekk
3.3.13  seeder  Skrekk  replied to  bbl-1 @3.3.2    2 years ago
There were many Americans that supported the Nazis, at least in the beginning.  Charles Lindberg comes to mind.

Most of them were isolationist Republicans like Lindberg and Prescott Bush although I doubt that the GOP of that era really had much in common with today's GOP other than white supremacy, antisemitism and a hatred of the New Deal.

 
 
 
charger 383
3.3.14  charger 383  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.3.11    2 years ago

And Union Pacific is restoring a Big Boy and it will run next year

 
 
 
bbl-1
3.3.15  bbl-1  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.3.11    2 years ago

Powerful train.  Sixteen drive wheels.

Not sure, but I think I saw that train on display at The Illinois Rail Museum.  It is awesome.

 
 
 
bbl-1
3.3.16  bbl-1  replied to  Skrekk @3.3.13    2 years ago

And for some, the money was a factor.  So much for sacrifice and patriotism, right?

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
3.3.17  Nowhere Man  replied to  Skrekk @3.3.13    2 years ago

There were a few more prominent people involved as spokespersons and supporters.

From completely across the political spectrum....

The America First Committee had its share of prominent businessmen as well as the sympathies of political figures including Democratic Senators  Burton K. Wheeler  of Montana and  David I. Walsh  of Massachusetts, Republican Senator  Gerald P. Nye  of North Dakota, with its most prominent spokesman being aviator  Charles A. Lindbergh . Other celebrities supporting America First were actress  Lillian Gish  and architect  Frank Lloyd Wright . ( from wiki )

Seems to me you cannot pin The America Firsters entirely on the Republicans.

I could say that since their national headquarters was in Chicago, and their largest membership groups were in Illinois and New York, they were created by the Democrat machines in those locations. I would be just as wrong as you.....

It was an across the political board organization. Yes there were some Nazi supporters involved, but they went their own way when the organization was officially disbanded three days after Pearl Harbor. Right after Hitler declared war on us.

 
 
 
Krishna
4  Krishna    2 years ago

This is the key point that people often miss when talking about Hitler’s rise. The breakdown of German democracy started well before Hitler: Hyperpolarization led Hindenburg to strip away constraints on executive power as well as conclude that his left-wing opponents were a greater threat than fascism. The result, then, was a degradation of the everyday practice of democracy, to the point where the system was vulnerable to a Hitler-style figure.

Some good points-- and very well stated. It wasn't as if Nazis suddenly appeared and took over in a sudden coup. The first thing that happened was an erosion of democracy-- over time. That created conditions for a totalitarian government to arise-- be it a totalitarian government of the left, of the right, or a theocracy.

 
 
 
321steve
4.1  321steve  replied to  Krishna @4    2 years ago
The first thing that happened was an erosion of democracy-- over time.

Yes Yes and YES !

United we stand, devided we fall

Divide and conquer ! 

A divided America....

Whats really next ?  We  the People must insist the politicians we hire stop this infighting and start cooperating again, or they are done.

LOL

Yeah like that's gonna happen.

Sad !

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
4.1.1  Nowhere Man  replied to  321steve @4.1    2 years ago
"A house divided upon itself cannot stand" -- Abraham Lincoln June 16, 1858 Springfield Ill.

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto him, "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand" -- Mathew 12:25

"a kingdom divided in itself cannot stand." Thomas Hobbes quote from his 1651 piece "Leviathan" 

Thomas Paine describes the composition of monarchy "hath all the distinctions of a house divided against itself...."        --1776 His work "Common Sense" 

During the War of 1812 a line appeared in a letter from Abigail Adams to Mercy Otis Warren: "... A house divided upon itself - and upon that foundation do our enemies build their hopes of subduing us."

Eight years before Lincoln's speech, during the Senate debate on the Compromise of 1850, Sam Houston had proclaimed: "A nation divided against itself cannot stand."

We are doing it to ourselves......

 
 
 
bbl-1
4.1.2  bbl-1  replied to  Nowhere Man @4.1.1    2 years ago

"A house divided upon itself--and upon that foundation do our enemies build their hopes of subduing us."  Abigail Adams.

All of these years later and Putin's Russian Federation is relevant.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
4.1.3  Nowhere Man  replied to  bbl-1 @4.1.2    2 years ago

Well that was the Soviets chosen method of destroying our freedoms....

They called it "Democracy's one true weakness"

 
 
 
bbl-1
4.1.4  bbl-1  replied to  Nowhere Man @4.1.3    2 years ago

The Soviets are long gone.  The "new regime" is smarter, richer and more successful.

 
 
 
Krishna
4.1.5  Krishna  replied to  bbl-1 @4.1.4    2 years ago
The Soviets are long gone.  The "new regime" is smarter, richer and more successful.

Also, let's not forget-- Putin also had a lot of power when the USSR still existed-- he was the head of the KGB! (Which says a lot about the sort of person he was-- the KGB were not nice people!)

 
 
 
Skrekk
4.2  seeder  Skrekk  replied to  Krishna @4    2 years ago
It wasn't as if Nazis suddenly appeared and took over in a sudden coup. The first thing that happened was an erosion of democracy-- over time. That created conditions for a totalitarian government to arise-- be it a totalitarian government of the left, of the right, or a theocracy.

Same thing in the Japanese empire at about the same time.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
4.2.1  Nowhere Man  replied to  Skrekk @4.2    2 years ago

The Japanese empire was never a totalitarian state, at least not to the Japanese, and the government was separate from the emperor.

 
 
 
Krishna
4.2.2  Krishna  replied to  Nowhere Man @4.2.1    2 years ago
The Japanese empire was never a totalitarian state, at least not to the Japanese

And Nazis were not bad people-- at least to the Germans. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
4.2.3  TᵢG  replied to  Krishna @4.2.2    2 years ago
And Nazis were not bad people-- at least to the Germans. 

Nazis were brutal to the Germans.   Any German who resisted the Nazis was bullied or killed.

 
 
 
dave-2693993
4.2.4  dave-2693993  replied to  TᵢG @4.2.3    2 years ago

Then there was the Battle for Castle Itter when the Wehrmacht fought along side US forces against the SS. A little turn around is fair play.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
4.2.5  Nowhere Man  replied to  TᵢG @4.2.3    2 years ago

The Nazi's were brutal to anyone that got in their way, Especially Germans...

 
 
 
bbl-1
4.2.6  bbl-1  replied to  Krishna @4.2.2    2 years ago

Well yes.  In Nazi Germany there were Germans and--------------Germans.

I am beginning to sense that attitude here in America, at least to a troubling degree.

 
 
 
Tacos!
4.3  Tacos!  replied to  Krishna @4    2 years ago
It wasn't as if Nazis suddenly appeared and took over in a sudden coup. The first thing that happened was an erosion of democracy-- over time.

It's like climate change. It doesn't matter that life goes on as normal. Armageddon is coming because we say so, so be afraid. Be verrryyy afraid. And then let us take care of "protecting" you.

 
 
 
321steve
5  321steve    2 years ago

Looking at it realistically it’s the people we hire that actually have power over us at this point in America. The worst part is WE actually don’t hire them, the companies and rich people do with the money they need to get the job (elected) to begin with.

I’ve wondered for some time now WTF our founding fathers would think of how the system has evolved. ….. I’ll bet they’d drop dead.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
5.1  Nowhere Man  replied to  321steve @5    2 years ago

They wouldn't drop dead, they would have another revolution....

 
 
 
badfish
6  badfish    2 years ago

Comparing modern day politicians to Nazis is a sad way to marginalize the horrors experienced by the Jewish people during the holocaust.

Utter and complete nonsense and illogical stupidity.

 
 
 
lennylynx
6.1  lennylynx  replied to  badfish @6    2 years ago

Oh please, save me the false indignation.  No one is accusing Trump of actually planning to set up gas chambers and exterminate people.  The Nazi parallels are undeniable.

 
 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
6.1.1  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  lennylynx @6.1    2 years ago
Oh please, save me the false indignation.

There is a solution to that and, the Three Stooges actually provided it here, those who cry fowl in the face of the truth need to start admitting their failures as human beings,

 
 
 
Tacos!
6.1.2  Tacos!  replied to  lennylynx @6.1    2 years ago
No one is accusing Trump of actually planning to set up gas chambers and exterminate people.

I'm not buying it. Otherwise what's the point of comparing him to nazis? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and government is just government. Trump's administration could just as easily be compared to lots of other administrations, but you don't get internet clicks or political allies huddling together for protection until you start making nazi comparisons.

Invoking the memory of horrible atrocities gets people pumped up. It also makes reasoned debate impossible because now if you're a person who supports Trump at all, you support naziism and every terrible thing that implies. Therefore, no one should listen to you.

Nazi comparisons aren't reasoned historical analysis. They're a tactic to silence the opposition.

 
 
 
It Is ME
6.1.3  It Is ME  replied to  lennylynx @6.1    2 years ago
The Nazi parallels are undeniable.

Sounds like a Schumer and Feinstein thing to me !

Democrats have grown comfortable enough manipulating the rules of the democratic game to their advantage. (See Kavanaugh Trials)

 
 
 
Tacos!
6.1.4  Tacos!  replied to  lennylynx @6.1    2 years ago
The Nazi parallels are undeniable.

But no tiny mustache, right? And the president doesn't walk around in military uniform. There goes your theory.

 
 
 
Krishna
6.1.5  Krishna  replied to  lennylynx @6.1    2 years ago

Oh please, save me the false indignation.  No one is accusing Trump of actually planning to set up gas chambers and exterminate people.  The Nazi parallels are undeniable.

Really? 

Perhaps memories of the unfair accusations of fascism experienced by her husband explain Laura Bush’s decision to break ranks and instead go with a  tortuous comparison  of separating families of illegal border-crossers with the internment of Japanese-American citizens, keeping with the World War II theme but without resorting to outright accusations of Nazism.

Others, however, have no such compunction. Members of Congress, former officials, reporters and TV commentators have  tweeted comparisons  of U.S. detention facilities to Nazi concentration camps or issued  none-too-subtle invocations  of gas chambers in their tweets about children being led away from their parents by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents. Reporters have peppered administration officials with  questions about  their “Nazi” tactics.

On Friday, an MSNBC commentator  extended the Nazi label  to every Trump supporter, declaring: “If you vote for Trump then you, the voter, you, not Donald Trump, are standing at the border, like Nazis, going: ‘You here, you here.’

 
 
 
Jack_TX
6.1.6  Jack_TX  replied to  lennylynx @6.1    2 years ago
Oh please, save me the false indignation.  No one is accusing Trump of actually planning to set up gas chambers and exterminate people.

Then why the Nazi comparison in the first place?

  The Nazi parallels are undeniable.

You probably need to put on your tinfoil hat to keep the sky from hitting you as it falls.

 
 
 
Skrekk
6.1.7  seeder  Skrekk  replied to  Tacos! @6.1.2    2 years ago
I'm not buying it. Otherwise what's the point of comparing him to nazis?

Maybe you should actually read the seeded article before you comment?

 
 
 
Tacos!
6.1.8  Tacos!  replied to  Skrekk @6.1.7    2 years ago

That won't change your inability to comprehend criticism of it.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
7  Sean Treacy    2 years ago

Usually, comparisons between Donald Trump’s America and Nazi Germany come from cranks and internet trolls

There’s a reason for that. Because only internet cranks, idiots and delusional conspiracy theorists believe such nonsense.   

The left wing in this country is not rational. It’s consists of pure emotion coupled with ignorance and a compulsive need for instant gratification. They so are so hyper  emotional , that losing on a vote or election  signals some sort of apocalyptic end times.  They can’t accept losing, so therefore it must be a conspiracy or sign that the country’s demise is imminent.  Once you realize a large portion of the left simply act like spoiled 4 year olds who can't believe Mommy didn't get them the toy they have to have, everything makes much more sense.  

 The idea that we are on the verge of a Naziesqe downfall is pure, mainlined idiocy.   Kavanaugh will br confirmed by a bipartisan majority after a long, hard battle.The system was followed!  That’s how republics work!  

If there is a danger to the Republic, it’s much more likely to come from the left wing mob, who are willing to throw away our cherished concepts of due process and our Constitution in pursuit of their twisted perversion of justice based on identity politics rather than due process.  It's their refusal to accept losing and willingness to destroy institutions in pursuit of their agenda that is the problem our leaders need to address. 

To watch the left wing at work this week is to see the mentality that led to the Salem Witch trials.  They are a hate filled, irrational mob untethered to reason or reality. They’ve  simply invented their own reality,  where mere accusations of wrong doing (no matter how inconsistent or  refuted by independent testimony) must be accepted as gospel truth.

 As long as our country follows the Constitution and resists the temptation of mob justice and acting like spoiled four year olds, there is no real danger. And what’s more judges like Kavanaugh, who believe in due process and the Constitution, are exactly the type of people who safeguard our  country.

 
 
 
badfish
7.1  badfish  replied to  Sean Treacy @7    2 years ago

This is just lazy thinking for people unwilling to debate policy.

Then again when you spend half a century claiming to champion the working class, minorities etc only to have a different ideology implement free market solutions that work better this is what you get.

For over half a century we've been told the answer to these problems is more government and when that fails, the planners plan more and offer up more government without results.

Then one day some asshole deregulates the economy and lowers taxes and the working class finally gets what they've been asking for. Anyone see the minority unemployment numbers yesterday?  It's never been lower and all it took was removing government from their lives.

If anyone should be called silly names it's the failed central planners, gluttons of ineffective big government and social goonies that have for so long claimed to care about minorities.

It has to be a awful feeling when you realize that everything you believe is a fantasy so you call others Nazis.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
7.1.1  JohnRussell  replied to  badfish @7.1    2 years ago
 

Typical Trumpism. Just make a pronouncement and hope no one pays attention to the underlying. 

When Obama left office the unemployment rate was 4.9, and it had fallen for six years in a row. Since 1990 , 28 years ago, there have been a grand total of SEVEN years when the unemployment rate was less than 4.9. Even if we subtract the first seven Obama years , which were a residue of the mess the previous administration had left him, Obama's final 4.9 is still better than more than half (13) of the other 20 years during the period. The idea that "everything" changed when Trump took over and got rid of government in the economy is complete nonsense. 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193290/unemployment-rate-in-the-usa-since-1990/

The number of employed workers in the United States went up every year during the Obama presidency from 2010 on. The trend has continued under Trump. It also went up every year under the previous Democratic president, Bill Clinton. 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/192356/number-of-full-time-employees-in-the-usa-since-1990/

Mar 27 2016

 

truthful politics reviewed unemployment, labor force participation, and job opening statistics provided by the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics. The Bureau of Labor Statistics provides the official numbers on the above for the U.S.  Several charts follow below. All of the charts expand to make the data easier to view. Click on a chart to expand it, and click on the expanded chart to shrink it back to its original size.

The table below lists the average unemployment rate during the tenure of the respective president since 1948.

  • The average unemployment rate during Democratic presidents is 5.71%, during Republican presidents 5.93%.

So, when you look at the information at this link, you will see that the 4.9 unemployment rate Obama left Trump with was lower than the average rate of every Republican president since World War 2 , except for Eisenhower. (Obama's final year 4.9 was .01 higher than Eisenhower's 4.89)

-

One has to look in vain for any real support for what you are saying. 

 
 
 
 
badfish
7.1.2  badfish  replied to  JohnRussell @7.1.1    2 years ago

It's not trumpism John it's called finally helping out the working class and minorities like Obama couldn't. You should be happy considering you have for years been an advocate for such.

Remove the partisan blinders, big government can't get it done.

 
 
 
lennylynx
7.1.3  lennylynx  replied to  badfish @7.1.2    2 years ago

Didn't read his post at all, did you?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
7.1.4  JohnRussell  replied to  badfish @7.1.2    2 years ago

You have evidently fallen prey to Trump propaganda. 

 
 
 
badfish
7.1.5  badfish  replied to  JohnRussell @7.1.4    2 years ago

jrSmiley_86_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
JohnRussell
9  JohnRussell    2 years ago

It is both amazing and disheartening to watch "conservatives" and libertarians try and defend the Trump regime. 

The fact that a holocaust historian can even find any comparisons between now and then to make should worry everyone, but the right and the anarchist libertarians comfort themselves in the thought that the Trump regime is not an EXACT duplication of Nazi Germany. Whoopee !

Trump is obviously the worst and most authoritarian president we have ever seen in the US. He actually wants to dictate what Americans should think. Ever watch him answer reporters questions? He repeatedly and constantly cuts the reporters off and replies only according to the way HE wants to frame the question.  He wants everyone to bow down to his wishes. Of course what else should we expect from a malignant narcissist. McConnell is just a craven right wing ideologue who sold his soul to his corporate masters. 

The United States of America is at a low point right now, and will be so until trumpism is gone. 

 
 
 
badfish
9.1  badfish  replied to  JohnRussell @9    2 years ago

Calling people Nazis all the time is childish and really highlights the lack of credibility in just about everything said by the goonie circus.

 
 
 
Sparty On
9.2  Sparty On  replied to  JohnRussell @9    2 years ago

Nah, but it is heartening to see that the system is thwarting an attempt to game the system.    It didn’t work in 2016 and it’s not working in 2018.      More to follow.    

I predict his years midterms will be a historic net loss for the minority party.    Largely because of the type of behavior on display lately by many on topics like this nomination

Time will tell but it would be best to buckle up buttercups.    It’s going to be a VERY bumpy ride for agents on the left.

 
 
 
Tacos!
9.3  Tacos!  replied to  JohnRussell @9    2 years ago
It is both amazing and disheartening to watch "conservatives" and libertarians try and defend the Trump regime.  The fact that a holocaust historian can even find any comparisons between now and then to make should worry everyone

This quote, in a nutshell is what you - and everyone making nazi comparisons - seeks. You want Trump's supporters to stop supporting him and you want to use the politics of fear to make more people oppose him. 

You could literally take any leader - from national to local - and make some kind of nazi comparison. You're not engaging in historical analysis. You're in engaging in simple politics and propaganda. People have been comparing political leaders to Hitler since . . . well, since Hitler.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
10  Colour Me Free    2 years ago

Can anyone explain why the 'world' is so desperate to have another Hitler - it is quite obviously being fantasized about, when the top expert of all the US experts on Nazis thinks McConnell is a parallel to Nazi Germany's Hitler...

Not too long ago, it was Putin that was the next Hitler … for his 'creeping' annexations of part of Georgia, then Crimea - remember how he needed to be stopped in order to prevent the Russian 'creep' of land grabs?

Make up your minds .. if one really needs a Hitler in the world today - look no farther than Turkey and their illustrious leader Erdogan, Turkey is even a NATO member.....

 
 
 
321steve
10.1  321steve  replied to  Colour Me Free @10    2 years ago
Can anyone explain why the 'world' is so desperate to have another Hitler

I dont know about an explanation but here are my observations and thoughts.

From what I’ve observed many different reasons are used by many different agendas that either actually fear Nazism or want to use fear and disgust to manipulate others.

For myself I associate Hitler with dictatorship. When I look at what I know about how a dictatorship came about elsewhere and I see those same types of things happening again, it does catch my attention.

 
 
 
Tacos!
10.1.1  Tacos!  replied to  321steve @10.1    2 years ago
I see those same types of things happening again

What is it you think you see? Nothing has changed. We still have elections. We still have courts who overturn things the supposed "dictator" wants to do. We still have a congress that checks power and spending.  Nobody is being rounded up and thrown in prison for no reason. Naturally, the president is going to have some things go his way, but Americans are still living as free people.

 
 
 
321steve
10.1.2  321steve  replied to  Tacos! @10.1.1    2 years ago
What is it you think you see?

I had and have seen little things not only from president trump but also from president Obama.  

Both in my opinion pushed for and probably received more power in ways the forefathers did not intend.

Getting into details of what I think shows that becomes too politically charged and I din t feel like the fight, If interested people need to do their own evaluation of what They observe. But thanks for asking.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
10.1.3  Colour Me Free  replied to  321steve @10.1    2 years ago
For myself I associate Hitler with dictatorship. When I look at what I know about how a dictatorship came about elsewhere and I see those same types of things happening again, it does catch my attention.

Do you feel this is happening now in the US?  

I see that China now has a 'permanent' president .. Turkey, if Erdogan is reelected in 2019 will have an 'official' dictatorship (waiting for the Killing field in Turkey, and a Syrian land grab coming soon - Erdogan even things Turkey should have control over Mosul  .. 

I do not see a dictatorship coming to America, but I see political agendas trying to control free speech, among other things - not recognizing the control they are advocating for, in my opinion...  Hitler is dead .. and is not coming back - yet those that squawk the most are the ones advocating for control of the 'people' ...

 
 
 
321steve
10.1.4  321steve  replied to  Colour Me Free @10.1.3    2 years ago
Do you feel this is happening now in the US?

I do not see a dictatorship coming to America, but I see political agendas trying to control free speech, among other things 

When so many American people actually have as their mandate and for their choice of a president as “One man to tear down the existing government and rebuild one in his own making and of his own desire”. Yep, That certainly gives me reason to pause and think WTF !

When it becomes a reality … I kinda shutter to think what actually may come next.

In many ways this reminds me of the Pied Piper story where the whole town put their faith in one man to solve the rat problem after he did and then did not receive the compensation he thought he deserved he turned on the town and stole their children for ransom.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
10.1.5  Colour Me Free  replied to  321steve @10.1.4    2 years ago
When so many American people actually have as their mandate and for their choice of a president as “One man to tear down the existing government and rebuild one in his own making and of his own desire”. Yep, That certainly gives me reason to pause and think WTF !

I have never heard / read this statement before now .. I have heard drain the swamp,  the supporting of smaller government .. but tearing down the existing government?  allowing one to rebuild / make his own government?  I have NO clue where that comes from, or even who it comes from, I have no recall of anyone stating the Constitution needs to be eliminated so ONE MAN can become the all knowing and controlling (well except in Turkey where the Constitution was rewritten to give Erdogan more power..... )

…. can you supply me a source, I am finding nothing - but as always, I may not be asking the correct question in order to find said statement....

 
 
 
Tacos!
10.1.6  Tacos!  replied to  321steve @10.1.2    2 years ago
Both in my opinion pushed for and probably received more power in ways the forefathers did not intend.

Oh I think this is certainly true. It's been going on since at least Teddy Roosevelt, and more obviously since FDR. Part of me despairs that we have come so far from the framers' vision, but I also have to concede that the world is a different place and perhaps some changes needed to be made. None of that quite makes me think about Hitler, though.

 
 
 
321steve
10.1.7  321steve  replied to  Colour Me Free @10.1.5    2 years ago
…. can you supply me a source, I am finding nothing -

I'm not surprised NO conservative news outlet would report anything that said it like I do.

I did find this article that kind of uses the same wording I do to a degree it does point out some of what I am talking about as well. 

   http://time.com/4564256/donald-trump-mandate/

What Donald Trump Will Do With His Mandate

Donald Trump delivers his acceptance speech as Vice president-elect Mike Pence looks on, on Nov. 9, 2016 in New York City.

By  JEFF NESBIT  

November 9, 2016

It’s  Donald Trump’s Republican Party now . The nation’s capital is now a one-party town, and Trump owns it all. What does Trump intend to do with that mandate?

Tens of millions of voters who were clearly angry with Washington  showed up at the polls  to vote for Trump—even though GOP elites and the media told them their vote likely wouldn’t matter. They showed up largely without being organized, and they voted for Trump’s vision of how the Republican Party should “drain the swamp” and run the nation’s capital.

So … now what?

The truth is that President-elect Trump was handed a considerable mandate from a vast swath of America on Tuesday. They clearly want real change in the national government. In the end, a great many people voted explicitly for the sort of change that Trump vowed to bring to Washington.

Trump has promised swift, immediate changes in immigration, health reform, national security, trade and industrial regulation policies. He now has a free hand to propose sweeping initiatives in all of those areas, and there is very little that elected GOP leaders can do to shape or control them at the outset.

Trump won largely without the help of the institutional GOP party apparatus. Trump showed that there is a huge swath of America—which was the most decisive group of voters in nearly every battleground state contest that he won on Tuesday—that feels left out, abandoned, not part of the club in national politics and economic policy. He showed that his movement is, in fact, real and that it now controls the Republican Party. Elected leaders in Congress, at least in the short term, have no choice but to be mindful of that stark reality.

The fact that the GOP is now essentially in charge means that every one of Trump’s big initiatives—whatever they might be—will be heard and acted on in some capacity in the next two years.

American voters gave Trump the keys to our national government on Tuesday, and a blank canvas on which to paint. Establishment GOP leaders weren’t prepared for it, and many openly and privately hoped it would not come to pass. But it has arrived. Now, whether they like it or not, they will need to pay close attention to the leader of a movement that they hardly knew even existed until Tuesday.

..............................................................................

Personally I thought 537 people making the decisions of running the country was a much better idea. 

435 representatives 

100 senators

1 president and 1 VP 

But, to each their own !

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
10.1.8  Colour Me Free  replied to  321steve @10.1.7    2 years ago

Thanks 321 .. yet that is a opinion piece, and an interpretation of a supposed mandate .. 

P.s.... I think you are aware that I do not rely on one source, and I am a wee bit insulted by this line:

I'm not surprised NO conservative news outlet would report anything that said it like I do.

You found something/an opinion to support your claim … I respect your opinion .. yet we just have to disagree on this, the sky is not falling where I live

 
 
 
321steve
10.1.9  321steve  replied to  Colour Me Free @10.1.8    2 years ago

I think you are aware that I do not rely on one source, and I am a wee bit insulted by this line:

Unfortunately (mainly for me) I don't pay a great deal of attention to remembering what each of us on here is, has, or what their personal history is. Sometimes I dont even look at who it is I'm responding to.

I try to treat everyone the same and with this being "stage names" and no faces it Blends together for me somewhat. Hell even in person I can't remember names or peoples personal details I never have. That's MY flaw. Sorry.

AS far a s being insulted I dont blame you, it didn't ""feel " right when I wrote it, I went in to change it and was already too late,

I Should have put it like this. "I haven't seen Any news outlet word it like I do" 

Again, Sorry.

Thank you. 

As far as the "mandate" Yes I have definitely heard many people call it that, I have called it that on here a few times and had some obvious conservatives here actually agree that that was and is the trump mandate. HA isn't here anymore so I'll drop his name. He was one, someone else here also very recently said to me saying "That's why trump was hired !"  

I told them both yeah  I know that's a problem ... 

...................................................................

Anyway , you are correct, at this time the sky isn't falling, things are getting better !

It needs to, it HAS to, or the power will not keep flowing to the top. 

I know how damn partisan that sounds ! But it is also the truth. IF a person or group has control and wants more control, until they have enough control IT HAS TO get better. 

Personally I do believe president trump has good intentions, I do not however agree with much of anything in his ways and means of accomplishing it.

He said himself, "Words to me dont mean much, it's deeds that matter."  Every second trump seems to be in "Negotiating  Mode" He seems to say whatever he wants to get whatever he wants. IMO: That is no way to govern millions of people and the country, More "hats" are needed to be worn than that for sure.

I'm not going to bore ya going on But, I'll end by saying I too get my news from many sources an I sure wish we would have had two better choices the last election.

But it is what it is. 

Good Luck America !   And good luck controlling our employees that we put in charge of it.  

 
 
 
Skrekk
10.1.10  seeder  Skrekk  replied to  321steve @10.1.7    2 years ago
It’s Donald Trump’s Republican Party now.

My hope is that the GOP dies with him, or at least the taint and stench of Trump never leaves the GOP.

 
 
 
Skrekk
10.1.11  seeder  Skrekk  replied to  321steve @10.1.9    2 years ago
Personally I do believe president trump has good intentions

....for himself anyway.    It's clear that he doesn't care that his policies harm blacks, Muslims, immigrants, women, Jews, LGBT folks, and anyone who isn't a millionaire.    And he certainly doesn't give a crap about the people and groups whom he demonizes for political advantage, like rape victims and the disabled.

 
 
 
321steve
10.1.12  321steve  replied to  Skrekk @10.1.10    2 years ago
My hope is

That Americans and american politicians can stop all this downward infighting. 

.

.

I Love the words "Can't we all just get along !" That was so simple, honest, hopeful and innocent. Unfortunately we can not and to me that not only sucks I see it as a threat to the country I and so many millions of us love. That is why I will probably never join another divisive political party and dont belong to any now. I research all candidates vote for whom I believe is best qualifies for each office.  No partyline voting for me.. 

 
 
 
321steve
10.1.13  321steve  replied to  Skrekk @10.1.11    2 years ago
.for himself anyway. 

Now you know part of why I do not like his ways and means of accomplishment. I dont think trump really hates any of those. He USES everyone and everything he can anyway he can to achieve his goals. 

Trump could at least probably be classified as a narcissist    (I think he is actually a megalomaniac) but even as a narcissist the thrill of becoming the best of anything especially the president of the united states of America is one hell of a crown.

Yeah I think he has good intentions (and as you say for himself anyway) and I still dont approve of his ways and means of accomplishing much of anything.

PS: FYI, IMO: He is not succeeding as the Best president ever. This 100 percent negotiating mode he lives in sucks in many ways. It is what it is.

Thanks for the conversation so far and have a nice rest of the day.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
10.2  Nowhere Man  replied to  Colour Me Free @10    2 years ago

They have to find an enemy, something or someone in the current society they can incite emotional responses and spread their lies and work their hate against.

Without such, their ideals fall apart in the same manner as a sand castle collapses under the waves.....

Their whole societal philosophy is based upon hate.....

Who in american society today organizes and spreads hate as their base to operate?

Yes the historical parallels are there, if people wish to see them.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
10.2.1  Colour Me Free  replied to  Nowhere Man @10.2    2 years ago
Yes the historical parallels are there, if people wish to see them.

So you are saying that what is being seen by some, is their interpretation of what they choose to see?

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
10.2.2  Nowhere Man  replied to  Colour Me Free @10.2.1    2 years ago

It could be said that way I suppose, but that not really the meaning I am trying to convey.....

Authoritarianism requires subjects that respond emotionally without thinking, the easiest emotion to invoke is hate. This is why authoritarians usually invoke hatred to something, someone or anything that will rile the crowd. Once riled they can be turned in almost any direction the authoritarian wants....

People who think for themselves are seldom duped by such shenanigans.

This is why they are the most hated.

For the rest, it comes in degrees and by the choice of what they wish to believe.... the interpretation comes after, when confronted with their hate, and they have to rationalize it into something they think is good. Hence they are right and everyone else if wrong breeding even more hatred in the process to defend their rationalizations. It eventually gets to the point where no matter how much they try to rationalize their interpretation away, the ideal is so outlandish as to be otherworldly.

That when they really go crazy....

If you allow such people to gain absolute power, then you wind up with the Hitlers and Stalins.

It is not the interpretations of the leaders that is the issue, it is that of the followers. Such followers are also the most irrational cause they haven't a clue what it is their leaders are after, all they have is what their leaders demand of them rationalized into a good thing.

Like this. on both sides of most wars, the national leaders claim for the masses that god is on their side and they need to go fight the good fight, even though they unknowingly are fighting for some of the most evil principles ever imagined. they believe, so they interpret the evil into good.

I usually bring this truth into a conversation by quoting the SS belt buckle of WWII "Got mit Uns" meaning God is with us.

It is what every single SS soldier wore every day he wore the uniform.... 

The historic parallels are there, if people care to see them...

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
10.2.3  Colour Me Free  replied to  Nowhere Man @10.2.2    2 years ago

Thanks for the clarification and additional thoughts....

For the rest, it comes in degrees and by the choice of what they wish to believe.... the interpretation comes after, when confronted with their hate, and they have to rationalize it into something they think is good. Hence they are right and everyone else if wrong breeding even more hatred in the process to defend their rationalizations. It eventually gets to the point where no matter how much they try to rationalize their interpretation away, the ideal is so outlandish as to be otherworldly.

I could be seeing / interpreting things differently than others, but I do not see the hate coming from Trump as much as I see it directed towards Trump .. there are nationalist that support Trump, and they are full of hate - yet their numbers add up to nothing significant, their organizations add up to 10 to 15k members … however the opposition has vast numbers - are organizing and seemingly desiring to control/block speech of other individuals .. even a time or 2 using violence - blocking freeways in order to prevent others from going to rally's etc... 

Trump takes issue with the media .. and the FBI etc - it is not over presidential .. and the media is no longer professional nor non biased .. 'we' are reading opinion based news daily - with lil disclaimers about how they were unable to independently verify accounts in the article …. (the FBI - I do not know what to think about that .. I have a friend working for the FBI in Quantico Virginia .. that individuals is not overly impressed either at this time .. the bias is apparently showing during training...)

(but honestly I do not listen to Trump - when I do listen to him ….. my head begins to shake back and forth uncontrollably .....)

The historic parallels are there, if people care to see them...

Point well taken ………..

 
 
 
Skrekk
10.2.4  seeder  Skrekk  replied to  Nowhere Man @10.2.2    2 years ago
Authoritarianism requires subjects that respond emotionally without thinking, the easiest emotion to invoke is hate. 

Trump supporters come to mind.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
10.2.5  Nowhere Man  replied to  Skrekk @10.2.4    2 years ago

So do current democrat supporters in their various "Movements"

 
 
 
Krishna
10.3  Krishna  replied to  Colour Me Free @10    2 years ago
Can anyone explain why the 'world' is so desperate to have another Hitler - it is quite obviously being fantasized about, when the top expert of all the US experts on Nazis thinks McConnell is a parallel to Nazi Germany's Hitler...

Its not a case of them wanting another Hitler-- rather its an easily explained attempt to manipulate public opinion. Its called ...."exaggeration" (For any fans of big words that might be here...you can call it "hyperbole" :-)

I have heard Republicans say that Obama is another Hitler...and more recently Democrats saying that Trump is another Hitler.

In the words of Albert Einstein:

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
10.3.1  Colour Me Free  replied to  Krishna @10.3    2 years ago

Thanks Krishna : )

 
 
 
nightwalker
10.3.2  nightwalker  replied to  Krishna @10.3    2 years ago

I think this goes a little further than someone trying to find a hurtful name to call someone, usually. Most normal people that look for another Hitler are really hoping they can't find one because he came real close to winning and destroyed so much and was responsible for so many deaths in the process. If he'd have won? It would have gotten worse.

The idea is to stop a Hitler before he gets rolling and destroys too much. Looking at it that way, can you blame people?

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
10.3.3  Colour Me Free  replied to  nightwalker @10.3.2    2 years ago
The idea is to stop a Hitler before he gets rolling and destroys too much. Looking at it that way, can you blame people?

Whose interpretation of 'what a Hitler is' will be used?

 
 
 
321steve
10.3.4  321steve  replied to  Colour Me Free @10.3.3    2 years ago
Whose interpretation of 'what a Hitler is' will be used?

How about any dictatorship. is that OK ?

It is to me.

IF I wanted to live in a country with ONE man controlling everything... I'd move.

I liked the fact we had 435 representatives 100 congress people and a president and Vice president in charge, O the good old days....

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
10.3.6  Colour Me Free  replied to  321steve @10.3.4    2 years ago
IF I wanted to live in a country with ONE man controlling everything... I'd move.

If the popularity of the 'cult of personality' that is Obama could not find the secret to controlling the world, what makes you think Trump has the ability?

Kavanaugh was not my choice for the Supreme Court .. but the last minute dropping of a sexual assault claim, was more Reich related than the nomination of Kavanaugh, or the vote confirming him ….!

 
 
 
321steve
10.3.7  321steve  replied to  Colour Me Free @10.3.6    2 years ago

controlling the world

I don’t think anyone can but I don’t think that stops some from Thinking Maybe They could.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
10.3.8  Nowhere Man  replied to  Colour Me Free @10.3.6    2 years ago
Kavanaugh was not my choice for the Supreme Court .. but the last minute dropping of a sexual assault claim, was more Reich related than the nomination of Kavanaugh, or the vote confirming him ….!

You got it!

Excellent Point!

100% agree....

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
10.3.9  Nowhere Man  replied to  321steve @10.3.4    2 years ago
I liked the fact we had 435 representatives 100 congress people and a president and Vice president in charge, O the good old days....

If we could only get then to do their jobs the way they are supposed to, like in the old days...

Instead of foisting their ideals upon us.....

 
 
 
321steve
10.3.10  321steve  replied to  Nowhere Man @10.3.9    2 years ago
If we could only get then to do their jobs the way they are supposed to, like in the old days...Instead of foisting their ideals upon us...

Their ideas have turned into agendas driven by donors. 

The politicians need the money to get the votes.

We the people no long are the top of the food chain, WTF do we expect ?

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
10.3.11  Colour Me Free  replied to  321steve @10.3.7    2 years ago

I was having Pinky and the Brain flash backs ...

or some..

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
10.3.12  Colour Me Free  replied to  Nowhere Man @10.3.8    2 years ago

There were options available to Feinstein, as there were options for legal counsel, yet none of those options were even broached .. none of this had to happen the way it did!

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
10.3.13  Trout Giggles  replied to  321steve @10.3.10    2 years ago
Their ideas have turned into agendas driven by donors. 

Big money donors who don't have to disclose who they are. Thanks, Citizen United!

 
 
 
Skrekk
10.3.14  seeder  Skrekk  replied to  Colour Me Free @10.3.12    2 years ago
There were options available to Feinstein

That's off-topic but you're welcome to start a separate seed to explain that rather blatantly uninformed comment.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
10.3.15  Colour Me Free  replied to  Skrekk @10.3.14    2 years ago

 Have my comment removed .. problem solved

P.s.... if you do not think Feinstein had options available to her,  then it is not me that in uninformed!

 
 
 
Tacos!
11  Tacos!    2 years ago

Buncha nonsense. Nazi comparisons are ridiculous no matter who is doing them. They are intended and serve not to illuminate important truths but to 1) galvanize Trump opposition and 2) silence or shame Trump supporters.

Trump has been president for almost two years now and life goes on pretty much as normal. In fact, many things are better, especially economically. No one has been exiled. No camps have opened. No one has been unfairly jailed. All of the horrors predicted by his opponents have not come to pass.

Nevertheless, the nazi comparisons which were there before he was even elected continue to this day. It's a political ploy. If you aren't fighting hard enough against Trump it's because you don't understand he's really the second coming of Adolf Hitler. If you support him, you should be ashamed of yourself for the same reason.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
11.1  Nowhere Man  replied to  Tacos! @11    2 years ago

It doesn't matter the who, they did the same things to Bush, and then backdate their philosophy to Reagan.

You see it culminate when the leader of their party calls half of America hateful and despicable. we see it almost everyday on this site when people say that republicans shouldn't be part of anything. 

Some even go so far as intimating that anyone of a conservative bent should be killed.

Anyone with open eyes know where the hate in our society comes from, and they make it a point to blame everyone else for it....

 
 
 
Krishna
11.2  Krishna  replied to  Tacos! @11    2 years ago
 Nazi comparisons are ridiculous no matter who is doing them. They are intended and serve not to illuminate important truths . . . 

Correct.

Since many people on NT obviously feel they know it all and therefore never have to actually click on links before shooting off the mouth and voicing their opinion of the linked item-- I deeply sympathize!

However this brief video is one of the best comments re: the recent fashionable use of Hitler comparisons.

And its by the man who is one of the most brilliant political commentators alive today. (Plus he's very funny).

Yes-- of course that's an opinion.

But check it out.....

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
11.2.1  Nowhere Man  replied to  Krishna @11.2    2 years ago

EXCELLENT!!!!!

I always liked Stewart.....

There is an integrity about him that no one else has on that side....

 
 
 
Skrekk
11.2.2  seeder  Skrekk  replied to  Krishna @11.2    2 years ago
However this brief video is one of the best comments re: the recent fashionable use of Hitler comparisons.

Hmmmm.....I wonder how Stewart would respond had he actually read the article in question?    Apparently very few here have done so.

 
 
 
badfish
12  badfish    2 years ago

I say we all wear ski masks, carry the hammer and sickle flag, sport our Che Guevara tshirts, black skinny jeans with fat ass muffin tops hanging out and march around downtown calling everyone we disagree with a Nazi......

 
 
 
r.t..b...
12.1  r.t..b...  replied to  badfish @12    2 years ago

Fashion statements and "Nazi" references aside, good on anyone and everyone who feels any sense of dissatisfaction with the screwed up state in which we find ourselves. With the obvious dysfunction in our current state of affairs, we can at the very least find some solace that we still have the freedom to voice our displeasure. Perhaps the only thing we can still cling to, regardless of how one may interpret the protestations. If we lose that, we've lost everything.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
12.1.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  r.t..b... @12.1    2 years ago
we can at the very least find some solace that we still have the freedom to voice our displeasure.

For now. If some of these people get their way, we won't.

 
 
 
KDMichigan
12.2  KDMichigan  replied to  badfish @12    2 years ago
calling everyone we disagree with a Nazi......

When did that ever happen? Got proof? /s 

 
 
 
Skrekk
12.3  seeder  Skrekk  replied to  badfish @12    2 years ago
I say we all wear ski masks, carry the hammer and sickle flag, sport our Che Guevara tshirts, black skinny jeans with fat ass muffin tops hanging out and march around downtown calling everyone we disagree with a Nazi......

Or you could just don your body armor, grab a tiki torch, go to a neo-Nazi rally and beat up some folks who oppose white supremacy.   That way our Fuhrer will praise you as a "very fine person".

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
13  Sean Treacy    2 years ago

It's also pretty ironic that essays like this, in which the supposed Hitler is routinely denounced in the most brutal, hyberbolic terms, are routinely published in mainstream outlets like the New York Times Review of Books without fear of any reprisal or consequence from those smeared. Opposition media is thriving and reaching new levels of partisanship in the midst of a supposed fascist dictatorship. Posters on this very site call the people they denounce as fascist leaders rapists, child molesters etc.etc. knowing they are completely free to do so.  

It's been the same since Goldwater. Every Republican is a Nazi. Collins made a nice point in her speech. The insane, sky is falling leftwingers were claiming Souter was going to kill woman if confirmed 20 plus years ago. It doesn't matter how many times they are wrong, the song remains the same. 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
14  Thrawn 31    2 years ago

We are watching the death of American democracy in real time, sad as it is. It was always inevitable though. 

 
 
 
nightwalker
14.1  nightwalker  replied to  Thrawn 31 @14    2 years ago

I have to disagree. The ATTEMPT that some group or another would try to take over our democratic system from within was inevitable, but so far the country has always managed to fend them off.

 
 
 
Skrekk
14.1.1  seeder  Skrekk  replied to  nightwalker @14.1    2 years ago

Thanks to Trump we're now seeing long term institutional damage to the government.    What he's done to the FBI, SCOTUS and the Senate with this latest stunt won't be fixed quickly.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
14.1.2  Nowhere Man  replied to  Skrekk @14.1.1    2 years ago
Thanks to Trump we're now seeing long term institutional damage to the government.

Well I guess some think swinging the political pendulum back towards center is damaging our nation.....

And even more think doing so is saving our nation....

A debate that's been raging for centuries.

If you read Jefferson's views on Whigs and Tories , you realize it has been going on for millennia, in many different great nations.... And why Thomas Jefferson, ostensibly a democrat republican, was the first true Republican president

 
 
 
Cerenkov
15  Cerenkov    2 years ago

Dementia is a terrible disease. My sympathy to the author.

 
 
 
MrFrost
15.1  MrFrost  replied to  Cerenkov @15    2 years ago

Where did you get your medical degree? 

 
 
 
badfish
15.1.1  badfish  replied to  MrFrost @15.1    2 years ago

I got mine in Grenada.

 
 
 
Sparty On
15.1.2  Sparty On  replied to  badfish @15.1.1    2 years ago

I think i remember you.

I was the guy with the green face, cammies and smokin M-16.

Remember me?

 
 
 
Sparty On
16  Sparty On    2 years ago

What a farcical premise this guy has made.

 
 
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